SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[abzy1200]

Clarity requires a mutual confession between whatever ship -- Clerith or Cloti, choose your fighter. But Cloti already got that in 1997 and no one cares, so no one will care in 2027 if we're being honest with ourselves.

"It's OptIonAL"

Yet Cloud still tells Tifa point blank, to her face, that he wants to start a life with her. "Ambiguous" my ass.

"He never says what kind of life he wants with her." If the boot was on the other foot, and Cloud said this to Aerith, we'd never hear the end of it, and that's what makes this all so annoying.

Nothing Cloud and Tifa do can be romantic, ever.

Cloud looking in Aerith's direction is undeniable proof of Clerith, though.

 

[Yoru]

But Cloti already got that in 1997 and no one cares, so no one will care in 2027 if we're being honest with ourselves.

That's why, in my opinion, they need to do more than what we've had. The 3D models with voice actors and full motion track will help. Sure.

But stop with the unspoken. Stop this AC bullshit "yeah they're a couple but not really, they're made for each other but Cloud acts like a jerk who doesn't want to play with his toy anymore now he's won it" (yeah I know, I'm exaggerating things to make my point. Don't take it the wrong way).

If their goal really is to establish Cloti, as we think it is. Let them say it openly this time.

And not that "I think I'll see her there" out of "nowhere" at the end of the game. Never again.

 

[nars305]

Tifa will understand in the 3rd game that Aerith and Cloud are meant to be. That's why the game is setting up this over the top Aerith & Tifa top girlfriendship. She won't be sad because it's Aerith, it's a good thing.

That was my summary from the other side of the battlefield. Over.

I can’t answer this for you as a Clerith, but I can’t say I’m answering it as a Cloti either because it’s hard for me to title myself that when I haven’t been in the LTD or FF7 fandom that long at all.

I went into Rebirth completely neutral. The game tells you right at the beginning that something is going on between Cloud and Tifa. It was built much differently in Remake. The “romance” aspect to me in Remake was just the option of getting to favor a certain girl if you wanted but it wasn’t that important.

However, in Rebirth Cloud and Tifa have development that feels like it’s the story as opposed to a choice I’m making. Like I said, that seed is planted in the very beginning, and as I continued to play I got more and more invested in their relationship and then Gongaga put me in a chokehold.

So I ended the game feeling like it was pretty obvious what was happening. This goes for Zack and Aerith as well.

AFTER beating the game that’s when I read the novels and etc and it only proved to me more what was going to happen. Then you see the difference in the way they program Cloud to act differently with Tifa and it’s undeniable.

So…to go back to your point. Aerith living and her and Cloud getting together with Tifa being fine with it is absurd. It immediately makes the works after the game make no sense. I choose to think of the story with no optional content, and if we did that Cloud and Tifa have the slow burn development. Aerith does not. If we add the optional content back in, they have the slow burn and he kisses her.

 

[Rin]

That's why, in my opinion, they need to do more than what we've had. The 3D models with voice actors and full motion track will help. Sure.

But stop with the unspoken. Stop this AC bullshit "yeah they're a couple but not really, they're made for each other but Cloud acts like a jerk who doesn't want to play with his toy anymore now he's won it" (yeah I know, I'm exaggerating things to make my point).

If their goal really is to establish Cloti, as we think it is. Let them say it openly this time.

And not that "I think I'll see her there" out of "nowhere" at the end of the game. Never again.

Yep, I agree. I think we need to hear Cloud say, "I love you" after his true self is restored and they seal it with a kiss.

And then I honestly don't need Aerith's blessing for them, idc about that personally bc I'm more concerned with her reuniting with Zack and clearing the air about her feelings for Cloud to HIM.

If those two things happen? I'm happy and it'll get rid of any "ambiguity".

 

[Ryushikaze]

@Ryushikaze @Gym Leader Devil

Out of boredom I was reading/skimming through old threads to do with the LTD and...oh my lord...

How did any of you ever put up with Blankbeat and others like them? Some of the stuff they're constructing arguments off of makes me want to scream at my monitor for not being able to reply to them! Surely not all of them were this bad, right? Kudos to ye, FairheartStrife, Isabella, Vendel, Quexinos, hitoshura, Tres etc. because my god I would have lost it.

I have the patience of the fucking buddha. And even then what you see on TLS is once things calmed down slightly. Beforehand it was very wild west, a bit like you get on Twitter nowadays.

Seriously, what on God's green earth indicates Cloud and Tifa would ever break up offscreen? I can't tell if I just have tunnel vision and am forgetting stuff or something from being wound up, but what is an interpretation of this compilation where Cloud and Tifa are incompatible and weren't happy together to the point they separate that isn't completely detached from any and all reasoning and evidence provided by said compilation?

Only wishful thinking from Cleriths can spin this quote in such a way for it to even possibly allude to a failed relationship between Cloud and Tifa.

Really sorry for the rant, Like I said I'm wound up, mainly from not being able to give that person my two cents.

I cut most of your post here but this is the key part. You have it correct. Wishful thinking, a hope that Cloud and Tifa won't work out so Aerith will "win" is what makes them think it indicates that. Like, they want a love story like FF8, only they want it with Cloud and Aerith instead of Squall and Rinoa. And there's a part of me that still suspects that Rinoa looking a lot like Tifa is part of why they don't accept that one.

While it annoyed me too, I think the simplest explanation is that this is supposed to be Aerith's game, her time to shine since she (hopefully) won't have nearly as much screen time in part 3, so they want you to experience Aerith's sidequests.

The same way the affection system in the original was biased towards Aerith...because they wanted to get you attached to her before she inevitably kicked the bucket.

People always say it's "biased" to her because the starts with 20 points, but you can easily match that many with Tifa before meeting Aerith a second time (IIRC, 0 is the AV floor and 255 is the limit) and then you can absolutely floor her value if you're not good at the barrel game, so I think it's partly there to play nice.
You aren't wrong the game wants you to notice and be intrigued by her, but the AV minigame is very jank and abusable so I actually wonder if they had a problem with people having trouble getting her date during playtesting.

I'm with you lol. That's why I'm trying to understand their POV.

I wouldn't bother with basic haters or people who refute the basic game. These are "internet friends" who knew the game with OG, fan of Aerith's character. Who totally agree with the fact that she's dead and that Cloud is living his life with Tifa at his side, but who came away from Rebirth with the clear impression that SE was changing things and preparing to give Aerith a happy, climactic ending.

If Aerith gets a happy Climactic ending, it will be with Zack and almost certainly be in another world/ the afterlife rather than being reborn.

So they're not really cucked.

Zack has accepted he was gone for a long time and Aerith fell in love with someone new. Basically new Cloud's Wingman.

Tifa will understand in the 3rd game that Aerith and Cloud are meant to be. That's why the game is setting up this over the top Aerith & Tifa top girlfriendship. She won't be sad because it's Aerith, it's a good thing.

That was my summary from the other side of the battlefield. Over.

I've seen that specific Clerith cope many times before, and I always laugh because Maiden, though now acanon, gives us literally the textual opposite as she wishes Cloud and Tifa the best as they are meant to be. Also, you know, punting Cloud back into his own body and back to Tifa (and to save Tifa) at the very end of the game.

I'd love in Pt3 if after the final one on one fight or glorified cutscene, Cloud is standing around in a daze, and all we hear is Aerith's voice going "Cloud, wake up. Tifa's in danger." and THAT snaps his fucking self right back to reality to action.

As for Zack, while I don't see him as being mad at either Cloud or Aerith, he's not going to give up.

 

[Yoru]

I can’t answer this for you as a Clerith, but I can’t say I’m answering it as a Cloti either because it’s hard for me to title myself that when I haven’t been in the LTD or FF7 fandom that long at all.

I went into Rebirth completely neutral. The game tells you right at the beginning that something is going on between Cloud and Tifa. It was built much differently in Remake. The “romance” aspect to me in Remake was just the option of getting to favor a certain girl if you wanted but it wasn’t that important.

However, in Rebirth Cloud and Tifa have development that feels like it’s the story as opposed to a choice I’m making. Like I said, that seed is planted in the very beginning, and as I continued to play I got more and more invested in their relationship and then Gongaga put me in a chokehold.

So I ended the game feeling like it was pretty obvious what was happening. This goes for Zack and Aerith as well.

AFTER beating the game that’s when I read the novels and etc and it only proved to me more what was going to happen. Then you see the difference in the way they program Cloud to act differently with Tifa and it’s undeniable.

So…to go back to your point. Aerith living and her and Cloud getting together with Tifa being fine with it is absurd. It immediately makes the works after the game make no sense. I choose to think of the story with no optional content, and if we did that Cloud and Tifa have the slow burn development. Aerith does not. If we add the optional content back in, they have the slow burn and he kisses her.

It's not "my" point. I'm just writing what they told me. But yes, your POV as a "new" player is definitely interesting. And I'm happy everytime someone says "Cloti is real" to know I'm not a mad man who's delulu for the last +20 years lol

I'd love in Pt3 if after the final one on one fight or glorified cutscene, Cloud is standing around in a daze, and all we hear is Aerith's voice going "Cloud, wake up. Tifa's in danger." and THAT snaps his fucking self right back to reality to action.

What's funny is that even for 1997, the scene is pretty detailed. When Cloud snaps out of the LS, you can see he's really struggling. And the moment he sees Tifa falling ? Bro enters the matrix and starts jumping from rock to rock to catch her in his arms.

 

[nars305]

It's not "my" point. I'm just writing what they told me. But yes, your POV as a "new" player is definitely interesting. And I'm happy everytime someone says "Cloti is real" to know I'm not a mad man who's delulu for the last +20 years lol

Lmao yes I should have said THE point.

I mean I’ve said it before but I was shocked there was a debate. Especially since I didn’t understand people shipping Cloud with someone who dies. Then that turns into the argument of Cloud settling for Tifa, or he’s only with her because of that, and the absurdity goes on and on.

 

[Yoru]

Lmao yes I should have said THE point.

I mean I’ve said it before but I was shocked there was a debate. Especially since I didn’t understand people shipping Cloud with someone who dies. Then that turns into the argument of Cloud settling for Tifa, or he’s only with her because of that, and the absurdity goes on and on.

I never understood it either. It was the second Final Fantasy of my life. I just got the best time of my life as a Cyberpunk fan. The first female character the game puts in my hands is Tifa, who kicks asses. My 10-year-old self, already a fan of Gally in Gunm or Motoko in GitS, didn't look any further.

And then I finished the game happily, I went on the first forums or text chat we could find at the time and people jumped on me saying that I was an idiot who hadn't played the game, that I didn't understand anything and that this wasn't how the game was supposed to be played lmao.

And here started my long journey of "Where the fuck am i?"

I spent the next few years just thinking "well, never mind, I like the game and I'll choose Tifa".

AC came along. I didn't try to understand

Remake came along. I didn't try to understand

Rebirth happened. I said "Fuck this. I'm actually right."

 

[abzy1200]

Like, they want a love story like FF8, only they want it with Cloud and Aerith instead of Squall and Rinoa. And there's a part of me that still suspects that Rinoa looking a lot like Tifa is part of why they don't accept that one.

It's even funnier because Zerith is exactly what they want from Clerith, which is in ff7 itself:

Soldier and Cetra with great chemistry, of which both of them are devoted to each other, even after death.

They want Cloud to do for Aerith what Zack is doing for her right now. Jumping between dimensions in hopes of reuniting, that is.

The more I think about it, the more I think Cleriths would be happier if they migrated to Zerith.

and when you ask them what makes Clerith so compelling they'll say "it's so tragic", but then they'll turn around and claim that they want Cloud and Aerith to reunite. Make up your mind is all I can say.

--------

"Speaking of other Final Fantasy games, have you ever noticed that both of the other numbered Final Fantasy games that were released on the playstation 1 had love interests with dark hair? Final Fantasy 7 having Tifa as it's main love interest only cements that pattern, so that's proof of Cloti!"

-Clotis if we used batshit crazy Clerith logic.

Just a question, how long do we think it will be until Cleriths start claiming that because Aerith's costume is that of a Mii Swordfighter in Smash Bros and Cloud being a swordsman is intentional and indicates a connection between them? Or have they already?

People always say it's "biased" to her because the starts with 20 points, but you can easily match that many with Tifa before meeting Aerith a second time (IIRC, 0 is the AV floor and 255 is the limit) and then you can absolutely floor her value if you're not good at the barrel game, so I think it's partly there to play nice.
You aren't wrong the game wants you to notice and be intrigued by her, but the AV minigame is very jank and abusable so I actually wonder if they had a problem with people having trouble getting her date during playtesting.

I feel like I could have made my point better, I kind of just meant the first half of the game in general.

But even then it's scarce outside of Midgar, there's like what? the conversation in Costa Del Sol and Cloud's "But I- we're here for you, right?" and that's basically it for Cloud/Aerith specific interactions.

As for Zack, while I don't see him as being mad at either Cloud or Aerith, he's not going to give up.

Hey, use their own logic against them:

If Cloud is allowed to love two women, then Aerith is allowed to love two men. So if Cloud loving Tifa doesn't kill Clerith, Aerith loving Cloud doesn't kill Zerith.

It's not "my" point. I'm just writing what they told me. But yes, your POV as a "new" player is definitely interesting. And I'm happy everytime someone says "Cloti is real" to know I'm not a mad man who's delulu for the last +20 years lol

Since I played the original 2 years and three months ago now, I don't know if I really qualify as a "new fan", but I'll still give my insight: I don't really remember what I thought in regards to the romance of the game on my first playthrough, but I remember being atleast somewhat partial to Cloti going into my second playthrough last December...

and completely convinced it was the canon pairing going into my third playthrough in January.

I'd love in Pt3 if after the final one on one fight or glorified cutscene, Cloud is standing around in a daze, and all we hear is Aerith's voice going "Cloud, wake up. Tifa's in danger." and THAT snaps his fucking self right back to reality to action.

And for the cherry on top, have Cloud say "I think we can meet her there", just to really rub it in, yknow?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I took a day off to fuck around in TOTK and watch old SFM vids on YouTube. Mistakes were made. I'm not even caught up yet, but I have to respond to a certain take I'm seeing a lot of and I'm impatient so...

First, our regularly scheduled derailing of the thread with Ryu

Don't forget such gems as "Aerith sent Denzel to Cloud so he's their child, not Cloud and Tifa's", "Barret/ the family of friends prove Cloud and Tifa aren't together" and one of my perennial favorites " the summer and winter monkeys in the FFX monkey matching minigame are evidence of Cloud and Aerith belonging together.

Never forget. Or forgive.

Yep, that's how you yanked me onto ACF. Now you're making me remember the other forum I belonged to at the time, Eyes on Final Fantasy and this one poster's crackpot FF8 theory about "well organized time compression" and how all the playable characters were actually related to each other as parent and child and grandchild. It made R=U and Squall is Dead look practically sane.

Your journey to TLS is more interesting than mine. Also while Squall is Dead is genuinely insane, some peeps do a shockingly good job of making it sound almost plausible, so it's at least fun as crack goes.

Oh Daflock. Change. Seriously. do it yesterday. He and Drake Clawfang are still hanging around on the FF7 boards over there.

Shit Drake is still out there tormenting themselves with this mess? I remember when they were involved in getting the FFVII page on TVTropes locked in an edit war over First Girl Wins and such.

Sucks cause if you kept the topic away from CxA they were fairly chill and sane most of the time.

I was 23.

Same.

Still full of piss and vinegar with no off switch?

If he wasn't I'd question if we're the same Vendel. Does he still respond to special pleading with all-caps BAWWWW? NGL I miss seeing it.

I held out for awhile, but I intervened out of worry someone else might swallow the bullshit.

You're so selfless to throw yourself on the poop grenade so others might be spared.

Of course it is. But they need to protect their 'sources' even if they're hilariously fake and wrong.

That's legit sad. Just... Protect their sources from what? This isn't a whistleblower speaking out about those in power or a criminal informant. Reprisals aren't a threat. It's not even a believable lie, ffs.

That's basically what the mod who locked the thread said.

Well, at least they were honest about the nature of their dishonest echo chamber.

It's not even a percentage point of the other subreddit's numbers.

And still too high.

I'd start with LTTP rando before moving on to crazier stuff.

I have heard good things on that one.

People would spontaneously start dying before they even did anything.

Taken literally that sounds terrifying.

Welk.

How did aquatic mollusks get into it?

Have you been cuddling the uranium at night again?

It makes me feel tingly.

But even with her ninja clones she couldn't quite manage.

No Kewpie doll for her, let alone one person clone.

You hear that fan artists? Get to drawin'.

I can't draw/am too lazy, or I'd be on it.

His mind is where most of the problem lies, however.

True enough.

Even Marlene trying to be menacing.

Just let her be cute and innocent until she suddenly dies her Barret impression, it'll take him off guard.

It's an entirely different kind of dumb, however.

Indeed. Dumb comes in many forms... But it's still dumb

That's an understatement.

It really is. Like, I wouldn't willingly turn my back on those people.

You're the expert here.

I would say I'm sure I'm not the only one... But we're apparently surrounded by youngins in this here thread.

It's not great, but ACC is a good fun spectacle.

I liked it, for whatever that's worth.

Read the backstory stuff and play Crisis Core.

This certainly helps. I personally kinda liked my initial "wtf is even happening?" experience with vanilla AC, but that's not for everyone.

Advent Children basic should only be watched with the parody subs I wrote in college.

Now that ACC exists, yeah there's no serious reason to leave the second C out. Make it funny or GTFO.

So, I don't know if it's a properly formalized term yet, but I recently came across the phrase "fundamental systemic incongruence." which basically means "When someone's basic assumptions are so different and so ingrained that it presents a barrier to examining the facts as they are because doing so challenges those basic assumptions." Flat eartherism being a handy example of this sort of thing in the real world.

Yeah, that sounds familiar. I think I read some articles that just used "FSI," its nice to have actual words to fill in the abbreviation.

I bring this up because in my recent jaunt to the clerith discord, I saw a thread called "why do people think there's a love triangle"

So sad, without the following this would be a smart question. But...

with readings of the narrative that were so divorced from the text that I realized we have to be dealing with this. The idea that FF7 is Cloud and Aerith's love story is their basic assumption. Not their conclusion, that is the assumption that colors all of their other readings of the text. They are fighting desperately to protect their basic assumptions, and that is why the LTD has lasted almost 30 years and counting.

Yeah, that's happening. And it's all confirmation bias from there.

I don't know. I just don't see Cloud being such an asshole to Tifa. I may be biased. But watching the movie for the first time legit made me hate Cloud. So yeah I found it artificial in the sense "hey we need to create some drama for our movie"

I'm not asking him to be lovey dovey while going through a depression. But leaving like that ? Without giving news ? For one month ?

To me it's the real starter of this whole Clerith narrative, and I'll just hate this movie for that.

Complete edition tried to fix some of the things but the damage had been done.

This right here, this is the take that required I jump the gun and post without fully catching up on the thread.

Cloud is depressed in this story. Not depressed in the semi-common use of "very sad" but genuinely depressed. His leaving his family and failing to communicate is obviously unhealthy for everyone, but to call him an asshole for it? Really?

Take it from someone who has suffered real depression, and has also assisted in talking down multiple suicidal individuals. In Cloud's mind he's doing the right thing. He's not only soaring his lived ones the sight of his demise, not only is he convinced he doesn't deserve the happiness they bring him. Until he talks to Tifa and gets shredded by Marlene, he believes fully that they are better off without him..

He's wrong. The plot begins turning around when he is forced to realize he is wrong. He is not an asshole for being wrong. Depression does that to people. It's a mark of how much Cloud loves and trusts Tifa that he starts fighting those feelings after one talk with her.

 

[nars305]

I never understood it either. It was the second Final Fantasy of my life. I just got the best time of my life as a Cyberpunk fan. The first female character the game puts in my hands is Tifa, who kicks asses. My 10-year-old self, already a fan of Gally in Gunm or Motoko in GitS, didn't look any further.

And then I finished the game happily, I went on the first forums or text chat we could find at the time and people jumped on me saying that I was an idiot who hadn't played the game, that I didn't understand anything and that this wasn't how the game was supposed to be played lmao.

And here started my long journey of "Where the fuck am i?"

I spent the next few years just thinking "well, never mind, I like the game and I'll choose Tifa".

AC came along. I didn't try to understand

Remake came along. I didn't try to understand

Rebirth happened. I said "Fuck this. I'm actually right."

Lmao I cannot imagine how bad it had to be for anyone who had to debate back in the day. I feel lucky I come into the debate after a kiss

Don’t really have to debate anything honestly. People can just fight the narrative I guess.

 

[Yoru]

This right here, this is the take that required I jump the gun and post without fully catching up on the thread.

Cloud is depressed in this story. Not depressed in the semi-common use of "very sad" but genuinely depressed. His leaving his family and failing to communicate is obviously unhealthy for everyone, but to call him an asshole for it? Really?

Take it from someone who has suffered real depression, and has also assisted in talking down multiple suicidal individuals. In Cloud's mind he's doing the right thing. He's not only soaring his lived ones the sight of his demise, not only is he convinced he doesn't deserve the happiness they bring him. Until he talks to Tifa and gets shredded by Marlene, he believes fully that they are better off without him..

He's wrong. The plot begins turning around when he is forced to realize he is wrong. He is not an asshole for being wrong. Depression does that to people. It's a mark of how much Cloud loves and trusts Tifa that he starts fighting those feelings after one talk with her.

I assume you'll see more details after you're up to date.

But in any case, I'll say it again.

I didn't say it sucked as a demonstration of depression. I said I didn't want to see it, and that I thought it was very poorly introduced. I'm sorry, but without having read Case of Tifa for a bit of context, someone coming into the movie just sees a Cloud that's in total contradiction to how we left him.

And then again. Dealing with depression is fine. But it's a subject that seems to me to have already been "entertained" in FF7, and that I wanted to see something else. Especially when a certain part of the audience uses it as something romantic. Just no.

(And again, I'm talking specifically of Advent Children vanilla. Not the Complete edition)

 

[abzy1200]

If he wasn't I'd question if we're the same Vendel. Does he still respond to special pleading with all-caps BAWWWW? NGL I miss seeing it.

From what I've seen, he usually just replies to Cleriths with something along the lines of "Cope harder" or "you wish" and then he takes his leave.

 

[Sacky]

That's pretty much my interpretation of it.

But as we were talking about echo chambers the other day, I try to be open minded and watch or talk about it with other people. And I'm "terrified" when I see people who are not part of the extreme side of the force emerging from the game with the real conviction that it is preparing a totally happy ending for Aerith (= the true heroine who wins it all. The game and Cloud)

And that's the moment where I doubt. Am I too biased ? Do I refuse to see the things in front of me ? Will I be the one to fall hard with Part 3 ?

I just don't understand the signs.

Its legit just the songs and people being unable to accept Loss being a theme in the game just look at this reddit thread but i also do need to keep being like am i the one seeing this wrong? https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/1cjnzr0

 

[Rin]

This actually might ruffle some feathers but I say this as a neurodivergent person who suffers with chronic anxiety, depression, and PTSD myself .... being mentally ill doesn't excuse shitty behaviour. It explains it, yes. But it doesn't absolve anyone from being considered an asshole--even if their intentions were good.

At the end of the day, Cloud left his life partner and their two wards without a word as he planned to die alone in an abandoned church. He thought he was sparing them pain but he wasn't and what he did was shitty as hell. If he HAD died and Tifa resented him for the way he chose to go out... she would be well within her rights for that.

So, I think if someone considers Cloud an asshole for his behaviour in CoT and ACC, that's a valid take. It doesn't mean they're trivializing his depression and PTSD. It's just a recognition of the impact his choices had on his family.

Plus, you can always come back from being an asshole by apologizing and working on rectifying the situation, which Cloud does in the end.

 

[Yoru]

This actually might ruffle some feathers but I say this as a neurodivergent person who suffers with chronic anxiety, depression, and PTSD myself .... being mentally ill doesn't excuse shitty behaviour. It explains it, yes. But it doesn't absolve anyone from being considered an asshole--even if their intentions were good.

At the end of the day, Cloud left his life partner and their two wards without a word as he planned to die alone in an abandoned church. He thought he was sparing them pain but he wasn't and what he did was shitty as hell. If he HAD died and Tifa resented him for the way he chose to go out... she would be well within her rights for that.

So, I think if someone considers Cloud an asshole for his behaviour in CoT and ACC, that's a valid take. It doesn't mean they're trivializing his depression and PTSD. It's just a recognition of the impact his choices had on his family.

Plus, you can always come back from being an asshole by apologizing and working on rectifying the situation, which Cloud does in the end.

Thank you Rin.

I meant no disrespect.

It's just that in Advent Children vanilla there is no setup coming in the movie. Cloud is not answering the phone for a whole month. Denzel is not really present. We don't have Cloud's wholesome dialogue with Marlene where he EXPLAINS to us why he did all of it and how sorry he is now.

Because yeah, "I cherish everything" is a great arc for Cloud. But they didn't show it to us in the first movie version.

So yeah. I'm not saying depression is not important or that they depicted it wrongly. But we didn't have the context necessary to just feeling bad and sad for him.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

@Ryushikaze @Gym Leader Devil

Out of boredom I was reading/skimming through old threads to do with the LTD and...oh my lord...

Yup, that sums up the old days. Shoulda seen those posts coming in in real time

How did any of you ever put up with Blankbeat and others like them?

Everyone deals with shit like BB in their own way. Forme it was easy most of the time, because they were exactly what I wanted. Someone who was wrong, dishonest, and generally awful. I never argued with BB and the other CAltist types with any expectation of changing their position, but for the pure joy of arguing I did occasionally lose my temper for reals when personal insults started flying at people I liked and respected. I have a bit of a white knighting habit, I'm afraid.

Some of the stuff they're constructing arguments off of makes me want to scream at my monitor for not being able to reply to them!

Totally valid feels.

Surely not all of them were this bad, right?

Oh no, very few people were BlankBeat bad. Still pretty awful at times, mind you.

Kudos to ye, FairheartStrife, Isabella, Vendel, Quexinos, hitoshura, Tres etc. because my god I would have lost it.

It's really nice to see those names being given props in here still. Hell I hadn't thought about FHS or Isabella in ages. Everyone mentioned deserves their kudos.

Really sorry for the rant, Like I said I'm wound up, mainly from not being able to give that person my two cents.

Don't be sorry for ranting about dumb shit which is dumb. I felt the same way some days and I was there, since Ryu/Tres, etc were frequently quicker on the draw than me at replying to the derp.

 

[Rin]

Thank you Rin.

I meant no disrespect.

It's just that in Advent Children vanilla there is no setup coming in the movie. Cloud is not answering the phone for a whole month. Denzel is not really present. We don't have Cloud's wholesome dialogue with Marlene where he EXPLAINS to us why he did all of it and how sorry he is now.

Because yeah, "I cherish everything" is a great arc for Cloud. But they didn't show it to us in the first movie version.

So yeah. I'm not saying depression is not important or that they depicted it wrongly. But we didn't have the context necessary to just feeling bad and sad for him.

I hold a lot of empathy in my heart for ACC Cloud but I also am a bit infuriated watching it play out, too. His intentions are good but he left his partner, who is also suffering, to deal with a business, a terminally ill kid, and her close friends daughter all on her own. He won't answer her calls. He won't have a conversation with her at the bar. He won't communicate with her at all. And then poof!, one day, he's just gone.

There's a reason women wrote to Nomura feeling offended for Tifa as @Eerie noted earlier. Not to be an annoying #Feminist but men always get the "privilege" to run away from their problems, their partners, and their children. Women don't but they're still expected to pick up the pieces of their broken home with a smile.

Idk. ACC is kind of triggering for me as a woman because Tifa is also depressed, she's also dealing with raising/taking care of a terminally ill kid, she's also got PTSD and suffers from nightmares, and she's also grieving but she doesn't have the privilege to walk out of the bar one day and never come back while ignoring the phone calls of her friends and family.

 

[Sacky]

I hold a lot of empathy in my heart for ACC Cloud but I also am a bit infuriated watching it play out, too. His intentions are good but he left his partner, who is also suffering, to deal with a business, a terminally ill kid, and her close friends daughter all on her own. He won't answer her calls. He won't have a conversation with her at the bar. He won't communicate with her at all. And then poof!, one day, he's just gone.

There's a reason women wrote to Nomura feeling offended for Tifa as @Eerie noted earlier. Not to be an annoying #Feminist but men always get the "privilege" to run away from their problems, their partners, and their children. Women don't but they're still expected to pick up the pieces of their broken home with a smile.

Idk. ACC is kind of triggering for me as a woman because Tifa is also depressed, she's also dealing with raising/taking care of a terminally ill kid, she's also got PTSD and suffers from nightmares, and she's also grieving but she doesn't have the privilege to walk out of the bar and ignore the phone calls of her friends and family.

the fact that they didn't show Tifas guilt is such a failure of that movie Case of Tifa is legit the first part of that movie its not even a book its like watching a movie half way in being like so why has this character ran away?

 

[abzy1200]

Something else in regards to Cloud and Tifa's relationship status:

Does it really matter? Obviously from a character/narrative point of view it absolutely does, if Cloud and Tifa don't end up together it trivializes a lot of compilation material and Cloud and Tifa as characters. But from an LTD perspective? Not really. At the end of the day the LTD is about determining where Cloud's romantic interests lie, so even if Cloud and Tifa broke up, that doesn't mean Cloud can't still harbor romantic feelings for her.

Again, with all the compilation material, a scenario like this or a scenario where Cloud and Tifa don't end up together in the first place is completely and utterly stupid, but this kind of mischaracterisation of Cloud/Tifa (every character involved for that matter) has never been below Cleriths. Use their own reasonings against them.

That being; outrageous, out-of-character claims with nothing to back it up

I hold a lot of empathy in my heart for ACC Cloud but I also am a bit infuriated watching it play out, too. His intentions are good but he left his partner, who is also suffering, to deal with a business, a terminally ill kid, and her close friends daughter all on her own. He won't answer her calls. He won't have a conversation with her at the bar. He won't communicate with her at all. And then poof!, one day, he's just gone.

There's a reason women wrote to Nomura feeling offended for Tifa as @Eerie noted earlier. Not to be an annoying #Feminist but men always get the "privilege" to run away from their problems, their partners, and their children. Women don't but they're still expected to pick up the pieces of their broken home with a smile.

Idk. ACC is kind of triggering for me as a woman because Tifa is also depressed, she's also dealing with raising/taking care of a terminally ill kid, she's also got PTSD and suffers from nightmares, and she's also grieving but she doesn't have the privilege to walk out of the bar one day and never come back while ignoring the phone calls of her friends and family.

I feel a bit conflicted about it aswell.

Part of me says: "The guy is traumatised, and struggling with a lot, it's not really his fault, everyone deserves a second chance."

But another part of me says: "How could he do that to Tifa?! She has to harbor the same stuff he does yet he was going to leave her a single mother to two children, one of which was dying."

I think at the end of the day I've come to the conclusion that Cloud was wrong in his actions, depression being a reason but not an excuse, and that he deserves to be called out for his actions, but that he also deserves a second chance since his actions weren't necessarily done in bad faith.

 

[Rin]

the fact that they didn't show Tifas guilt is such a failure of that movie Case of Tifa is legit the first part of that movie its not even a book its like watching a movie half way in being like so why has this character ran away?

It's super annoying since the whole point of OTWTAS is to show how everyone is dealing with mental health issues but they're not running away, only Cloud is. Which is why there's a ton of discourse about whether or not Tifa is too hard on him and yadda yadda. She's not.

She's going through exactly the same thing as him (without the addition of geostigma) and she believed they were carrying this heavy load together as a couple but then he abandons her to carry it all on her own without saying a word. And yes, doing that does make him a bit of an asshole because he's not the only mentally ill person in this relationship.

I think at the end of the day I've come to the conclusion that Cloud was wrong in his actions, depression being a reason but not an excuse, and that he deserves to be called out for his actions, but that he also deserves a second chance since his actions weren't necessarily done in bad faith.

@abzy1200 Yeah, this is exactly where I'm at with it as well lol. He WAS an asshole to Tifa in my opinion because he's horrible at dealing with his mental illness and facing problems head on, but being an asshole doesn't make you a monster. He rights his wrongs and makes a great comeback for his partner and their kids.

 

[abzy1200]

@abzy1200 Yeah, this is exactly where I'm at with it as well lol. He WAS an asshole to Tifa in my opinion because he's horrible at dealing with his mental illness and facing problems head on, but being an asshole doesn't make you a monster. He rights his wrongs and makes a great comeback for his partner and their kids.

With any luck we'll either see that repairing being done or the results of it in a certain epilogue

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I assume you'll see more details after you're up to date.

I did, though it did not immediately change anything for me, but we'll get to that.

But in any case, I'll say it again.

I didn't say it sucked as a demonstration of depression. I said I didn't want to see it, and that I thought it was very poorly introduced. I'm sorry, but without having read Case of Tifa for a bit of context, someone coming into the movie just sees a Cloud that's in total contradiction to how we left him.

That describes basically everything about AC, not just the depression bits, so no argument there.

And then again. Dealing with depression is fine. But it's a subject that seems to me to have already been "entertained" in FF7, and that I wanted to see something else. Especially when a certain part of the audience uses it as something romantic. Just no.

What does "entertained" mean in this context? I'm genuine when I say I'm not sure how to read that.

I will say that the view that "we did the depression plot why are we doing it again" bugs me. Depression isn't something you beat once and never deal with again. The very fact that you struggled with it is itself a source of depression to bring you down again later. If you just mean you didn't enjoy seeing it, otoh, that's purely subjective and valid.

(And again, I'm talking specifically of Advent Children vanilla. Not the Complete edition)

If I'm reading you right, your points still apply to ACC, just less so than AC

From what I've seen, he usually just replies to Cleriths with something along the lines of "Cope harder" or "you wish" and then he takes his leave.

Yeah, that's Vendel. He was a true master of hurr i'm a durr-fu. It does sound like he's chilled a little though.

This actually might ruffle some feathers but I say this as a neurodivergent person who suffers with chronic anxiety, depression, and PTSD myself .... being mentally ill doesn't excuse shitty behaviour. It explains it, yes. But it doesn't absolve anyone from being considered an asshole--even if their intentions were good.

At the end of the day, Cloud left his life partner and their two wards without a word as he planned to die alone in an abandoned church. He thought he was sparing them pain but he wasn't and what he did was shitty as hell. If he HAD died and Tifa resented him for the way he chose to go out... she would be well within her rights for that.

So, I think if someone considers Cloud an asshole for his behaviour in CoT and ACC, that's a valid take. It doesn't mean they're trivializing his depression and PTSD. It's just a recognition of the impact his choices had on his family.

Plus, you can always come back from being an asshole by apologizing and working on rectifying the situation, which Cloud does in the end.

Thanks Rin, this changed my view on the discussion a bit. It recontextualized the use of the word asshole in relation to Cloud's depression for me, in a much needed way.

 

[imach0c0]

@Eerie @Yoru

In order to remove any ambiguity, do you think ZA should also have a romantic scene? Or, is Aerith telling Zack her feelings without any of the romantic stuff enough to get the message across? (In the scenario CT have a romantic scene)

 

[abzy1200]

Yeah, that's Vendel. He was a true master of hurr i'm a durr-fu. It does sound like he's chilled a little though.

He's on Twitter @IamVendel if you or anyone ever wants to reconnect with an "old friend", if he was ever that in the first place.

EDIT: If you don't mind me asking, what exactly got him banned off here? General aggression is what I'm guessing.

In order to remove any ambiguity, do you think ZA should also have a romantic scene? Or, is Aerith telling Zack her feelings without any of the romantic stuff enough to get the message across? (In the scenario CT have a romantic scene)

Not necessarily, if we're talking about the LTD -Cloud, Tifa, Aerith- then no, just having Cloti scenes puts the kibosh on that.

But if we're talking ambiguity in general, then probably, yeah.