SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Ryushikaze]

I mean, unless Part 3 goes mask off and shows them clearly happy together in the future, they’ll just default to ACC talking points.

Also, you don’t get bedroom eyes if your relationship isn’t about to have an upswing

They're currently retreading the ACC talking points. That tends to be where these end up- trying to prove CT doesn't work because of Cloud's actions when dealing with survivor's guilt and then the fatal disease, both of which he's over after ACC. That and the DoC manual that calls Cloud an Ex-SOLDIER and Tifa a childhood friend.

They really just spin a wheel and decide what they're going to whine about that day based on it, don't they?

Kind of yes. That and ascribing all his actions after meeting Aerith to immediate and everlasting love, despite the man's literal words on numerous occasions.

And you don't tell people you're a family if you aren't one.

That's why they keep trying to shoehorn Barret into the arrangement. Because they think him (and Shelke, based on the fan idea that she moves in permanently at 7th heaven after DoC) living in the same building as CT somehow invalidate Cloud and Tifa being an item.

 

[abzy1200]

That's why they keep trying to shoehorn Barret into the arrangement. Because they think him (and Shelke, based on the fan idea that she moves in permanently at 7th heaven after DoC) living in the same building as CT somehow invalidate Cloud and Tifa being an item.

The more people who move into Seventh Heaven the better honestly, only makes it more likely that Cloud and Tifa don't have separate rooms when they have to accomodate two more people.

and also, it's always been weird to me that Barret returning by Dirge of Cerberus is used as some kind of "gotcha", as if Barret sleeping in the next room over precludes Cloud and Tifa from getting it on.

Kind of yes. That and ascribing all his actions after meeting Aerith to immediate and everlasting love, despite the man's literal words on numerous occasions.

God forbid Cloud is a good enough person to help somebody who was kidnapped by an evil mega corporation that he happens to have a vendetta for.

That and the DoC manual that calls Cloud an Ex-SOLDIER and Tifa a childhood friend.

It calls her a "longtime friend", no?

 

[Ryushikaze]

The more people who move into Seventh Heaven the better honestly, only makes it more likely that Cloud and Tifa don't have separate rooms when they have to accomodate two more people.

and also, it's always been weird to me that Barret returning by Dirge of Cerberus is used as some kind of "gotcha", as if Barret sleeping in the next room over precludes Cloud and Tifa from getting it on.

Somehow her still seeing Barret as her dad means Cloud can't also be a father figure to her? Even though CA ALSO try and call her a Clerith spritual child? I mean the end goal is to invalidate CT, the logic on HOW has never been properly explained.

God forbid Cloud is a good enough person to help somebody who was kidnapped by an evil mega corporation that he happens to have a vendetta for.

Apparently Cloud is such a complete dick that only true love will get him to do worry about or do something nice for a woman. Barret and Tifa can do things out of a sense of friendship, honor, etc.
(Cloud worrying about and doing nice things for Tifa naturally must be swept under the rug)

It calls her a "longtime friend", no?

Not in the English one, which is what I have access to right now. "Cloud's childhood friend and a master of martial arts."
Aerith for the sake of completion is "girl... who Cloud would never forget" The part I skipped was about her cetra heritage.

 

[Eerie]

They even have a keyword together in the Complete Crisis Core Guide (this translation is from TLS):

 

[abzy1200]

Somehow her still seeing Barret as her dad means Cloud can't also be a father figure to her? Even though CA ALSO try and call her a Clerith spritual child? I mean the end goal is to invalidate CT, the logic on HOW has never been properly explained.

Nevermind the fact that Cloud basically says to Evan that Marlene is his daughter, Denzel is his son, and just after being told Kyrie is Evans girlfriend, he says that their family situation just like Evan and Kyrie's.

Cloud said Tifa was his partner ages ago people just love igoring it.

Apparently Cloud is such a complete dick that only true love will get him to do worry about or do something nice for a woman. Barret and Tifa can do things out of a sense of friendship, honor, etc.
(Cloud worrying about and doing nice things for Tifa naturally must be swept under the rug)

I see a lot of people refer to the sandstorm in corel desert when it comes to this stuff. "Cloud protected Aerith instead of Tifa"

Not in the English one, which is what I have access to right now. "Cloud's childhood friend and a master of martial arts."

The character relationship charts love doing this as well. Square has to be annoying like that, don't they?

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

They even have a keyword together in the Complete Crisis Core Guide (this translation is from TLS):

View attachment 17121

Wait a minute… “through these the distance between them shortens”. When would this Ultimania have been published, Eerie? 2007/2008?

“Closing the distance” is a recurring visual motif for Cloud and Tifa in Remake and Rebirth. There’s the barstool occupying space between the two at Seventh Heaven, the hug in Aerith’s Garden, the acres of space between them in the inn at Under Junon, the Gongaga scene, the kiss. It’s like those references to Stamp in a Japanese event that were unearthed from 2017/2018 following the release of Remake. Is this a visual motif the creative team had in mind all along, but only now had the chance to realise it?

Regardless of potential past intentions, the imagery of closing space between Cloud and Tifa represents their growing intimacy which was communicated more simply through the Lifestream and Highwind scenes in the original. With that in mind, it’s surprising how much ground as been covered in Remake and Rebirth already before we have even gotten to those scenes. Then again, newcomers and less… romantically ready members of the audience might feel cheated by the twists of the Lifestream scene if it was not heavily foreshadowed in the first two Remake instalments.

I’ve seen the takes from our friends on the other side of the debate that the kiss is only “fan-service” or is the non-canon route. I can’t argue strongly about the text at the end of Rebirth (as I still haven’t finished the game!!!) but I have seen plenty of reactions to the kiss scene on Twitter and YouTube, and across gaming media outlets. Even if the kiss were indeed “fan service” doesn’t this create a problem for the final game? So many people have seen it and reacted positively to it - what does Square do about these members of their audience? Ignore them? Antagonise them? Why put it in Rebirth if they were planning to retreat from it in the next game? The arguments against it’s significance don’t fully add up.

I think it’s a little too late to put the genie back in the bottle and say: “lol jk, ignore all that sexual tension between Cloud and Tifa from the first two games”. Going back to the quote that Eerie shared above, I don’t know why we wouldn’t continue to see Cloud and Tifa continue to shorten that distance between them in the final game. Square has written about it in Ultimanias, it was present in the original, redone in miniature in Advent Children. Why would our authors abandon this idea that they have revisited multiple times at this late juncture in the Remake project?

(This post was largely an exercise in rationalising some of the more objectionable takes I’m come across recently. It would probably be healthier if I didn’t seek them out in the first instance!)

 

[Eerie]

Wait a minute… “through these the distance between them shortens”. When would this Ultimania have been published, Eerie? 2007/2008?

It's the complete guide so it's not an Ultimania. Still, it's there!

I will also add that "shortening the distance" was a metaphor used in the Japanese lyrics of Midgar's Blues in Remake - the song that basically storytells Cloud's life (or rather, Akira's life that mirrors Cloud's). It's a Japanese trope well used in shoujos too; personally I always thought it was extremely romantic, considering the Japanese culture which has a lot of social barriers between people.

It really makes sense with CT in the sense that their love is not only a pure love (since it grew from when they were very young) but also one with desire, since they do have sex under the Highwind. So we are seeing throughout the game how they shortened that distance, both as adults in game, but also in their major arc since they were young until they finally get together. Although I could argue for eons that the LS scene is the love confession, so most probably, since fans missed it, it's going to be the big moment where the finally close that gap in p3.

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

It's the complete guide so it's not an Ultimania. Still, it's there!

Ah - so not quite an Ultimania, but nevertheless, it is indeed a book published by Square according to this wiki page (which also links back to the TLS translation page!). Thanks for the clarification!

 

[Ryeleigh]

I wonder if anyone's been desperate enough to suggest Kunsel Reference Security Officer for the Lifestream Party Event to undermine Tifa's role, lol? (Just passed that part on my re-watch of Remake.)

 

[Ryushikaze]

They even have a keyword together in the Complete Crisis Core Guide (this translation is from TLS):

View attachment 17121

Don't forget the picture that goes with that keyword.
It's the two of them in unconscious in the flower field.

Nevermind the fact that Cloud basically says to Evan that Marlene is his daughter, Denzel is his son, and just after being told Kyrie is Evans girlfriend, he says that their family situation just like Evan and Kyrie's.

Cloud said Tifa was his partner ages ago people just love igoring it.

I mean the LTD exists because a small segment of the fandom want to ignore everything inconvenient to the ship.

I see a lot of people refer to the sandstorm in corel desert when it comes to this stuff. "Cloud protected Aerith instead of Tifa"

And when bullets started flying at the Dyne fight, Cloud protected Tifa before moving to save himself.

The character relationship charts love doing this as well. Square has to be annoying like that, don't they?

I wouldn't worry about those. Characters who end up explicitly married with kids in the sequels still get Childhood friends indicators in those. Wakka and Lulu have it, for example. Pretty sure Cecil and Rosa, as well.

Ah - so not quite an Ultimania, but nevertheless, it is indeed a book published by Square according to this wiki page (which also links back to the TLS translation page!). Thanks for the clarification!

It's also worth noting that very similar quotes show up several times in other actual Ultimanias.

I wonder if anyone's been desperate enough to suggest Kunsel Reference Security Officer for the Lifestream Party Event to undermine Tifa's role, lol? (Just passed that part on my re-watch of Remake.)

That would require addressing Crisis Core and that way lies realizing that basically everything they love about CA is really ZA.

 

[pxl_pushr]

That would require addressing Crisis Core and that way lies realizing that basically everything they love about CA is really ZA.

Almost every scene held up by CA has an undeniable tie to Zack, and that’s the nail in the coffin imo. That’s a deliberate choice, no doubt about it.

 

[abzy1200]

I mean the LTD exists because a small segment of the fandom want to ignore everything inconvenient to the ship.

Is it even fair to call it a "ship" if it's canon? Like it's a massive part of the story I don't think "ship" has ever been the right word because that, to me at least, always came with the implication that it was just fanon/internet noise.

And when bullets started flying at the Dyne fight, Cloud protected Tifa before moving to save himself.

A whole bunch of moments in Remake too.

I wouldn't worry about those. Characters who end up explicitly married with kids in the sequels still get Childhood friends indicators in those. Wakka and Lulu have it, for example. Pretty sure Cecil and Rosa, as well.

Of course, but it's such a nuisance. They at least have Clive and Jill referred to as lovers instead of Childhood friends so let's hope Cloud and Tifa get the same treatment this time around.

And it's also such a self defeating argument, if Cloud doesn't love Tifa because the character relationship chart doesn't say so, then where is the chart that says Cloud loves Aerith? There's a chart that has the childhood friends label given to Cloud and Tifa, which also contains just one indicator for Cloud and Denzel, which is literally just "brought back from the slums". On this same chart the only thing between Cloud and Aerith is "sense of guilt", so if I'm to believe that Cloud and Tifa aren't a thing because the chart says otherwise, then how can I believe Cloud and Aerith are a thing when the chart doesn't even mention they were friends?

Nomura has said it, that Tifa is a "beloved", but he said it as if people knew what he was talking about, and because people are looking for excuses, it didn't work. The official translation being "sweetheart" doesn't help either. Like yeah, you can call your beloved your sweetheart, but you can also use that word to describe someone who's just really kind, which Tifa happens to be, and all of this culminates in two things: More work for us and more gaslighting ammo for them.

 

[Eerie]

It's also worth noting that very similar quotes show up several times in other actual Ultimanias.

To be fair it's also noted in Remake's Ultimania that Aerith closes the gap between she and Cloud, although is her case, and seeing Rebirth, I think it's to underline that she's doing all the emotional work in the relationship. It's almost a burden by Rebirth.

 

[abzy1200]

I think it's to underline that she's doing all the emotional work in the relationship

This just reminded me of the second part of that "Things won't go well" quote from Nojima where he says that things might have gone well with Aerith, but that she has a "great burden" or something.

I see people say this "burden" is her heritage, but I genuinely cannot see how judging from Crisis Core since her being an Ancient hardly affected her relationship with Zack.

And even minus that extra context from Crisis Core, why would her being an Ancient affect her relationship with Cloud? Like genuinely, where did this come from.

 

[Eerie]

This just reminded me of the second part of that "Things won't go well" quote from Nojima where he says that things might have gone well with Aerith, but that she has a "great burden" or something.

THis is exactly what I had in mind. There's someone I think it was here who explained that this sentence from Nojima was to be understood as a great emotional burden because Aerith would be the one to do all the work. IIRC they worked from the way the Japanese was written, rather than the EN translation.

 

[eleamaya]

THis is exactly what I had in mind. There's someone I think it was here who explained that this sentence from Nojima was to be understood as a great emotional burden because Aerith would be the one to do all the work. IIRC they worked from the way the Japanese was written, rather than the EN translation.

It's me who brought it up here, but it's based on the replied thread I have on Twitter.
At first, I thought it's about her "burden" as a Cetra too, since she has accepted her heritage during the journey (she still hated it when she was dating Zack and want to be normal girl), so probably she has something to do even after Sephiroth has gone. And that person informed me about the meaning or the context of the JP word.

EDIT:
source--> x.com

 

[eleamaya]

Just wanna throw random thoughts

Cloud, Tifa, Sephiroth = Nibelheim Trinity
Zack, Aerith, Sephiroth = Lifestream Trinity
Cloud, Zack, Sephiroth = SOLDIER Trinity (let's include Cloud here lol)
Tifa, Aerith, Sephiroth = Kabbalah Trinity (Tifaret תִּפְאֶרֶת)



Also, what if they are a space object?
Cloud = Star
Tifa = Moon
Zack = Sun
Aerith = Earth
Sephiroth = Meteor

 

[Sacky]

https://www.reddit.com/r/FinalFantasyVII/comments/1doryg8/_/lad4ojl God forbid i just try to explain to someone what Zack probably is in the LS, and i get told Aerith is Clouds Koibito. Im not even
talking about shipping XD

 

[Ryushikaze]

Almost every scene held up by CA has an undeniable tie to Zack, and that’s the nail in the coffin imo. That’s a deliberate choice, no doubt about it.

Almost like the writer was sick of being misinterpreted...

Is it even fair to call it a "ship" if it's canon? Like it's a massive part of the story I don't think "ship" has ever been the right word because that, to me at least, always came with the implication that it was just fanon/internet noise.

A fair point, yes.

A whole bunch of moments in Remake too.

Like the train roll, for a good example.

Of course, but it's such a nuisance. They at least have Clive and Jill referred to as lovers instead of Childhood friends so let's hope Cloud and Tifa get the same treatment this time around.

It would help settle things, yes.

And it's also such a self defeating argument, if Cloud doesn't love Tifa because the character relationship chart doesn't say so, then where is the chart that says Cloud loves Aerith? There's a chart that has the childhood friends label given to Cloud and Tifa, which also contains just one indicator for Cloud and Denzel, which is literally just "brought back from the slums". On this same chart the only thing between Cloud and Aerith is "sense of guilt", so if I'm to believe that Cloud and Tifa aren't a thing because the chart says otherwise, then how can I believe Cloud and Aerith are a thing when the chart doesn't even mention they were friends?

Remember, the name of their game is to tear down CT. Applying the same logic to CA not only doesn't come into their thought, it's 'against the rules' to extend the metaphor. It's conclusion first argumentation.

Nomura has said it, that Tifa is a "beloved", but he said it as if people knew what he was talking about, and because people are looking for excuses, it didn't work. The official translation being "sweetheart" doesn't help either. Like yeah, you can call your beloved your sweetheart, but you can also use that word to describe someone who's just really kind, which Tifa happens to be, and all of this culminates in two things: More work for us and more gaslighting ammo for them.

Yes, those arguments were definitely put forward back in the day.

To be fair it's also noted in Remake's Ultimania that Aerith closes the gap between she and Cloud, although is her case, and seeing Rebirth, I think it's to underline that she's doing all the emotional work in the relationship. It's almost a burden by Rebirth.

Given Cloud's reaction, I think he might consider it a burden too. You definitely get the feeling that he feels like he's being mocked by Aerith (not that Aerith is mocking him, but that he feels that way) when she talks about going on dates because he has zero idea that she could be interested in him.

It's me who brought it up here, but it's based on the replied thread I have on Twitter.
At first, I thought it's about her "burden" as a Cetra too, since she has accepted her heritage during the journey (she still hated it when she was dating Zack and want to be normal girl), so probably she has something to do even after Sephiroth has gone. And that person informed me about the meaning or the context of the JP word.

EDIT:
source--> x.com

Yeah, C and T are both bringing themselves to the relationship but they don't want to push too hard, whereas A might get results sooner but she'd be doing all the work on that front.

https://www.reddit.com/r/FinalFantasyVII/comments/1doryg8/_/lad4ojl God forbid i just try to explain to someone what Zack probably is in the LS, and i get told Aerith is Clouds Koibito. Im not even
talking about shipping XD

That dude is spreading BS. It's not as blatant as some others, but it's still wrong information. And some of it is deliberate misinterpretation, I'm fairly sure.

 

[Xannis]

https://www.reddit.com/r/FinalFantasyVII/comments/1doryg8/_/lad4ojl God forbid i just try to explain to someone what Zack probably is in the LS, and i get told Aerith is Clouds Koibito. Im not even
talking about shipping XD

Also in that same thread someone who thinks that Zack and Aerith could be alive and well in the main timeline and everything would still line up just fine with Advent Children.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Like the train roll, for a good example.

I've seen CAs absolutely hate the train roll, lol. I've seen them hate every single CT interaction in the Re-Trilogy and that includes Both Girls, All Ships, and self-proclaimed CTs. They even went so far as to say that they wouldn't accept the CT kiss unless Tifa was Jenova but then did a 180 and got all offended when Max(?) put forth that maybe the "creepy Aerith" at the end of Rebirth was Jenova.

By the way, I've seen people in the wild say that there was a CA easter egg in... Parasite Eve, I think it was? And I was wondering if someone more knowledgeable than me who has played the game can verify this? Not that it changes anything in FF7s but I'm just curious if it's true or even half-true?

 

[Nancy]

I've seen CAs absolutely hate the train roll, lol. I've seen them hate every single CT interaction in the Re-Trilogy and that includes Both Girls, All Ships, and self-proclaimed CTs. They even went so far as to say that they wouldn't accept the CT kiss unless Tifa was Jenova but then did a 180 and got all offended when Max(?) put forth that maybe the "creepy Aerith" at the end of Rebirth was Jenova.

The Re-trilogy broke them beyond repair

 

[chomboe]

I've seen CAs absolutely hate the train roll, lol. I've seen them hate every single CT interaction in the Re-Trilogy and that includes Both Girls, All Ships, and self-proclaimed CTs. They even went so far as to say that they wouldn't accept the CT kiss unless Tifa was Jenova but then did a 180 and got all offended when Max(?) put forth that maybe the "creepy Aerith" at the end of Rebirth was Jenova.

By the way, I've seen people in the wild say that there was a CA easter egg in... Parasite Eve, I think it was? And I was wondering if someone more knowledgeable than me who has played the game can verify this? Not that it changes anything in FF7s but I'm just curious if it's true or even half-true?

I like what the re-trilogy has done with CT... also im new around here hi guys!

 

[ChaosandConfusion]

I like what the re-trilogy has done with CT... also im new around here hi guys!

Hallo!

 

[Ryushikaze]

Also in that same thread someone who thinks that Zack and Aerith could be alive and well in the main timeline and everything would still line up just fine with Advent Children.

Yeah, there were some strange takes there. I'd have to double check but I think that was a diehard Clerith saying that nonsense, that somehow Omni Aerith is trying to prevent Cloud from "becoming a shell of a man" in Advent Children.

I've seen CAs absolutely hate the train roll, lol. I've seen them hate every single CT interaction in the Re-Trilogy and that includes Both Girls, All Ships, and self-proclaimed CTs. They even went so far as to say that they wouldn't accept the CT kiss unless Tifa was Jenova but then did a 180 and got all offended when Max(?) put forth that maybe the "creepy Aerith" at the end of Rebirth was Jenova.

It was Max Dood yes. And the rules they play by are very simple. Aerith is good and wins. Anything that suggests anything else is verboten and heretical.

By the way, I've seen people in the wild say that there was a CA easter egg in... Parasite Eve, I think it was? And I was wondering if someone more knowledgeable than me who has played the game can verify this? Not that it changes anything in FF7s but I'm just curious if it's true or even half-true?

There is a "Cloud" computer virus in Parasite Eve 2. The fix for this virus is found in the "Aeris" magazine in the same room.

That's it.

That's the easter egg in its entirety.

It's funny they keep getting Maaya to play characters people call "Female Cloud" though.

I like what the re-trilogy has done with CT... also im new around here hi guys!

Welcome aboard!