SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[faefolk]

Yea, as of Rebirth, I think that is a pretty solid relationship chart and I hope that is the one the devs were going for.

Despite the fact that most of the Cloud and Aerith scenes in Chapter 13 and 14 are “non-optional”, none of them are as explicit and reciprocal as Cloud and Tifa’s GS date.

Yeah but tbh the last two chapters don't hold up the LTD to me too.

Spoiler

With Tifa and Cloud you have an absolutely amazing relationship building arc in Rebirth. We have their conflict in Kalm, the resolution where Cloud apologizes and they both linger at the door, the whole ass Gongaga sequence where Cloud goes like catatonic after attacking her and they have that meaningful conversation with him kneeling at her bedside and then almost kiss but get interrupted. Then in Nibelheim Cloud puts his arm around her and she comforts him in turn. Just like the entire build up is very organic and very clearly leading to an emotional climax for their relationship (and obviously if you do the GS that fits very naturally) and all the above is non optional and all throughout the game.

Now... we're in the final chapters, and we the viewers can see that Cloud is losing himself and falling under Jenovas influence more and more. He's really confused and scattered and has some wacked out dream moment with Aerith that is honestly just wild and kind of negative? And then he is devastated and refusing to acknowledge her death but like... That doesn't have romantic connotations to me at all? And it's clear every other member of the party thinks Cloud is off his rocker by this point (great build up to him realising Tifa doubts him and absolutely breaking down in the next game - LOVED that scene in the OG and they have so much build up in this one) so it's I dunno. Hard to connect the Cloud at the end of the game who is clearly largely dissociated from with romance and clear cut feelings.

 

[shady]

Spoiler

As someone who loves Aerith, I personally think it’s just unsatisfying for her to romantically end up with someone who doesn’t reciprocate her (currently ambiguous) feelings. We know now that she’s not even sure if she loves Cloud. And at least in ZA she’s not chasing a man whose real self she hasn’t met yet. The point is, it was never important for her character to know the difference between real cloud and his soldier persona and that’s what’s mostly stopping me to get on board with that ship, when it’s arguably the big reveal to the whole plot of ff7 and is the crux of cloud’s entire character. Aerith developing “genuine (romantic?) feelings” for REAL cloud is irrelevant to her narrative, if that plotline even ever existed, it isn’t at the forefront of her personal story. She doesn’t interact with his real self until after she dies, and her character motivations go beyond the fact that he had a fake identity the whole time they knew each other, despite that, after her death she helps out not just him, but the entire party, she becomes a guardian watching over the planet and her friends from the afterlife, she fulfills her purpose in the story even without a specific classification of her relationship with cloud (whether platonic or romantic)

Lots of people argue that the Z/A shipper mindset is based on a bias for Zack, but those same people also severely mischaracterizes him (he’s NOT a “generic shounen protag” like they say he is but that’s completely different discussion), they insist he’s not important to the remake trilogy or is an overinflated NPC. The game also makes it a point to distinguish Zack and Cloud’s role in Aerith’s life, Zack isn’t just Aerith’s first love, he’s, quite frankly, the original. Which is why even Aerith subconsciously (?) tries to imitate what they had experienced together romantically, with another person. Zack became HER standard. He’s someone who can’t be replaced. That’s why she knows what’s liking someone and “”liking”” someone. It doesn’t matter if players aren’t convinced by ZA’s love story, if they claim it’s not well-written or if they don’t believe that ZA is more compatible than CA, fact is, cloud should already have an advantage because Z&A haven’t seen each other in 5 years, yet cloud doesn’t act on this advantage, and even up until the end of her life, even after Z&A are separated, Aerith is wavering, traces of Zack is the elephant in the room that keeps haunting CA’s ambiguously romantic situation.

Also I personally don’t find ZA and CA to be similar in dynamics at all. In CA it’s Cloud who warms up to her antics, but Zack has always been able to respond well to her energy, he even effectively comforts her about her personal fears, something I struggle to believe Cloud ever did. I’m an Aerith stan, so I want her to be loved. If you look at ff7’s plot as a whole, she just ends up being Cloud’s “what-if” while he was out there kissing other women, and I don’t want that for her. Zack called her his girlfriend, bragged about her to literally everyone he knew (to the point of even Sephiroth being aware of their relationship) and she wrote him 89 letters in the course of 5 years. So why shouldn’t she end up with Zack if they find themselves in the same place again? Clear, indisputable mutual yearning, mutual desire, is what I want for Aerith’s love story, as someone who’s a fan of hers.

Spoiler

One thing is for sure - if they push CA after this they’re going to have to do Cloud’s character dirty, stomp all over Tifa’s feelings who will get hurt by Cloud, and leave Zack catching more strays after he caught loads in Rebirth by Aerith stomping on his heart (if they even meet in P3

 

[shady]

Apparently what Aerith mouths to Tifa is subtitled in German

Spoiler

I don’t know exactly what it means or what the translation is for other languages though (or even if it matters)

 

[Hix]

Spoiler

One thing is for sure - if they push CA after this they’re going to have to do Cloud’s character dirty, stomp all over Tifa’s feelings who will get hurt by Cloud, and leave Zack catching more strays after he caught loads in Rebirth by Aerith stomping on his heart (if they even meet in P3

Ālea iacta est, the Devs have nailed their colours to the narrative mast and it's Cloud/Tifa. It's far, far too late to roll it all back - indeed if they wanted to do so they would not have given a definitive kiss - by virtue of Aerith being dead and Tifa getting the Lifestream/Highwind (watch that not be optional btw) in part 3. The plot doesn't allow for CA from here on out, Rebirth was the time for it, and they decidedly let the ship sink.

Would also remind folks that if we're heading for Advent Children, then Zack/Aerith reuniting is not merely a theory but inevitable. There's no narrative benefit to not giving them the happy ending together they both deserve, and I'd argue there's plenty of ammo in Rebirth that shows they're aiming for it.

Apparently what Aerith mouths to Tifa is subtitled in German

Spoiler

View attachment 14720

I don’t know exactly what it means or what the translation is for other languages though (or even if it matters

Not sure the context of this, but she's mouthing "lucky!"

 

[JaeKony]

Yeah but tbh the last two chapters don't hold up the LTD to me too.

Spoiler

With Tifa and Cloud you have an absolutely amazing relationship building arc in Rebirth. We have their conflict in Kalm, the resolution where Cloud apologizes and they both linger at the door, the whole ass Gongaga sequence where Cloud goes like catatonic after attacking her and they have that meaningful conversation with him kneeling at her bedside and then almost kiss but get interrupted. Then in Nibelheim Cloud puts his arm around her and she comforts him in turn. Just like the entire build up is very organic and very clearly leading to an emotional climax for their relationship (and obviously if you do the GS that fits very naturally) and all the above is non optional and all throughout the game.

Now... we're in the final chapters, and we the viewers can see that Cloud is losing himself and falling under Jenovas influence more and more. He's really confused and scattered and has some wacked out dream moment with Aerith that is honestly just wild and kind of negative? And then he is devastated and refusing to acknowledge her death but like... That doesn't have romantic connotations to me at all? And it's clear every other member of the party thinks Cloud is off his rocker by this point (great build up to him realising Tifa doubts him and absolutely breaking down in the next game - LOVED that scene in the OG and they have so much build up in this one) so it's I dunno. Hard to connect the Cloud at the end of the game who is clearly largely dissociated from with romance and clear cut feelings.

You have a good point. Personally, I still stand by my point that Chapter 14 is a good conclusion or bookend to Cloud and Aerith relationship.

Spoiler

It’s a great ambigious send off as Cloud and Aerith shippers can argue that they might have caught feelings for each other if they were able to spend more time together whereas Zack and Aerith shippers can say that Aerith found out that she was never able to replace Zack in her heart.

 

[shady]

Ālea iacta est, the Devs have nailed their colours to the narrative mast and it's Cloud/Tifa. It's far, far too late to roll it all back - indeed if they wanted to do so they would not have given a definitive kiss - by virtue of Aerith being dead and Tifa getting the Lifestream/Highwind (watch that not be optional btw) in part 3. The plot doesn't allow for CA from here on out, Rebirth was the time for it, and they decidedly let the ship sink.

Would also remind folks that if we're heading for Advent Children, then Zack/Aerith reuniting is not merely a theory but inevitable. There's no narrative benefit to not giving them the happy ending together they both deserve, and I'd argue there's plenty of ammo in Rebirth that shows they're aiming for it.


Not sure the context of this, but she's mouthing "lucky!"

Spoiler

This is where Cloud and Tifa nearly kiss in Gongaga and they are interrupted by Yuffie and Cait Sith, they run off hur Aerith is stood behind them smiling at Tifa, then she mouths something and Tifa nods before looking back at Cloud, smiling and walking off

 

[AncientGrimoire]

Spoiler

Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth Confirms Cloud's Canon Love Interest

You can all stop debating now.

www.thegamer.com

This is the second article from the gaming press that I’ve seen declaring the love triangle dead

The first one from a few days ago that I saw

Spoiler

There is Not a Love Triangle in Final Fantasy VII

I know it's controversial, but let's address the misconception that Final Fantasy VII contains a love triangle.

www.siliconera.com

 

[GamerSkull]

I’ve noticed Zack catches quite a bit of flak by some fans because of his elevated importance to FF7 since the compilation. However, I think it merits saying that… the only way all four Love Square characters get a happy ending is by going the CT/ZA route…

People think Crisis Core did a disservice by making Zack more important than he originally was but I actually think that it added a lot more depth to Cloud’s past as a byproduct of his importance. I liken Zack to Cloud’s Obi-Wan… and I hope going forward for not only Zerith moments but I actually really want to see more Cloud and Zack bromance, post reveal.

We got a bit of it in ACC but I really want to see Cloud explore just how much Zack meant to him, because he would not be alive without him. All of this talk about LTD but we definitely need more of the BROTP. Amirite?

 

[shady]

I’ve noticed Zack catches quite a bit of flak by some fans because of his elevated importance to FF7 since the compilation. However, I think it merits saying that… the only way all four Love Square characters get a happy ending is by going the CT/ZA route…

People think Crisis Core did a disservice by making Zack more important than he originally was but I actually think that it added a lot more depth to Cloud’s past as a byproduct of his importance. I liken Zack to Cloud’s Obi-Wan… and I hope going forward for not only Zerith moments but I actually really want to see more Cloud and Zack bromance, post reveal.

We got a bit of it in ACC but I really want to see Cloud explore just how much Zack meant to him, because he would not be alive without him. All of this talk about LTD but we definitely need more of the BROTP. Amirite?

To be honest the only people I see hating on Zack are hardcore Cloud and Aerith shippers because he threatens the ship. Outside of the LTD though there’s literally nothing to hate about Zack, guys a great character and clearly would do anything for those he loves, including Cloud and Aerith. If you want to talk about compatible then Zack and Aerith are more compatible than Cloud and Aerith. Zack matches her energy, Cloud does not.

Also he is one of the most important characters in all of FF7, Nibelheim is just as much his story as it is Cloud’s, Tifa’s and Sephiroth’s, a majority of the games mystery with Cloud is wrapped up in Zack who he feels guilt over and mourns, oh and he is Aerith’s first love. Love him or hate him he is important to the world and its characters.

 

[faefolk]

I’ve noticed Zack catches quite a bit of flak by some fans because of his elevated importance to FF7 since the compilation. However, I think it merits saying that… the only way all four Love Square characters get a happy ending is by going the CT/ZA route…

People think Crisis Core did a disservice by making Zack more important than he originally was but I actually think that it added a lot more depth to Cloud’s past as a byproduct of his importance. I liken Zack to Cloud’s Obi-Wan… and I hope going forward for not only Zerith moments but I actually really want to see more Cloud and Zack bromance, post reveal.

We got a bit of it in ACC but I really want to see Cloud explore just how much Zack meant to him, because he would not be alive without him. All of this talk about LTD but we definitely need more of the BROTP. Amirite?

I'll second that the only people who don't like Zack are hardcore Cloud and Aerith shippers. Everyone else I know loved Zack, loved seeing Sephiroth pre-fall and loved seeing Shinra grunt Zack. The only thing that people hate in CC is hearing Loveless for the millionth time

I felt a lot more connected to Cloud as a character and Sephiroth as a villain after Crisis Core and that ending man... It made me understand Clouds mental breakdown and subsequent delusion so much more. The scattered way he repeats Zacks last words and screams. Omg.. shivers. Absolutely brilliant.

Incidentally Crisis Core is the reason I stopped hating Aerith as a character. So it gave her more depth too.

Idk why people seem to want to insist CC was a disservice to the franchise. It's excellent.

 

[faefolk]

You have a good point. Personally, I still stand by my point that Chapter 14 is a good conclusion or bookend to Cloud and Aerith relationship.

Spoiler

It’s a great ambigious send off as Cloud and Aerith shippers can argue that they might have caught feelings for each other if they were able to spend more time together whereas Zack and Aerith shippers can say that Aerith found out that she was never able to replace Zack in her heart.

Yeah they definitely toe the line in the final couple of chapters. It can be Clerith or Zerith depending on which way you squint.

Personally I still say you can only read it as Clerith if you ignore the larger narrative and the way it's building Tifa and Clouds bond but y'know.. shipping goggles have a really good 'black out' section for anything involving Tifa. Always blocks out everything but her boobs - which they will insist are the only reason anyone likes her as a character lmao.

 

[GamerSkull]

Yeah they definitely toe the line in the final couple of chapters. It can be Clerith or Zerith depending on which way you squint.

Personally I still say you can only read it as Clerith if you ignore the larger narrative and the way it's building Tifa and Clouds bond but y'know.. shipping goggles have a really good 'black out' section for anything involving Tifa. Always blocks out everything but her boobs - which they will insist are the only reason anyone likes her as a character lmao.

Tifa is actually my favorite character in all of FF7. And it’s not cuz she’s hot (although that’s a plus) but her entire character arc resonated with me the most.

Followed by Zack as my second favorite, and then Cloud… in that order.

 

[faefolk]

Tifa is actually my favorite character in all of FF7. And it’s not cuz she’s hot (although that’s a plus) but her entire character arc resonated with me the most.

Followed by Zack as my second favorite, and then Cloud… in that order.

Yeah she is my favourite too. She's so resilient and caring. Very selfless. It was something I admired so much as a kid and admire even more as an adult. She's a really great character!

Man.. Cloud is such a complex character. I was kind of sad that we didn't get a bit more of Advent Children because it's implied he finds peace but we don't actually see him living in peace at all and that's what I want to see!

 

[shady]

Yeah she is my favourite too. She's so resilient and caring. Very selfless. It was something I admired so much as a kid and admire even more as an adult. She's a really great character!

Man.. Cloud is such a complex character. I was kind of sad that we didn't get a bit more of Advent Children because it's implied he finds peace but we don't actually see him living in peace at all and that's what I want to see!

I've seen some speculation after Part 3 we might get some kind of post ACC epilogue or something. Which I wouldn't be against at all. Show the characters being happy again, everyone was so miserable in ACC man..

Tifa is great though as you say, so is Aerith to be fair, both for different reasons. Concerning Tifa though this woman stood by Cloud in some of his darkest moments and helped put the pieces back together, she deserves everything and more.

 

[faefolk]

I've seen some speculation after Part 3 we might get some kind of post ACC epilogue or something. Which I wouldn't be against at all. Show the characters being happy again, everyone was so miserable in ACC man..

Tifa is great though as you say, so is Aerith to be fair, both for different reasons. Concerning Tifa though this woman stood by Cloud in some of his darkest moments and helped put the pieces back together, she deserves everything and more.

This is my hope.. I would love to see a more concrete happy ending this time.

Tifa stands by everyone man. She's the best. She is just so generous with her love and care and I'm so here for it.

 

[Kigan]

This is an interesting argument few have the cojones to address, mostly because Tifa turns them on (or they self-insert as Tifa) which means she's a flawless princess that can do no wrong, all character flaws are something else's fault.
And I quote, from some external video:

Tifa accepted Cloud at his worst. She deserves him at his best

The biggest plot twist of the game is that Tifa did not accept Cloud at his worst, more like she didn't care.
If Tifa did accept Cloud at his worst (Nibelheim) none of this would've happened.
Tifa both accidentally helped saving the world (Cloud's thirst is what stops Sephiroth) and caused most of Cloud's problems (he would have never been injured and tortured if she gave him a little bit of attention).

Tifa in the lifestream is a textbook example of "You break it, you buy it".

 

[shady]

This is an interesting argument few have the cojones to address, mostly because Tifa turns them on (or they self-insert as Tifa) which means she's a flawless princess that can do no wrong, all character flaws are something else's fault.
And I quote, from some external video:

The biggest plot twist of the game is that Tifa did not accept Cloud at his worst, more like she didn't care.
If Tifa did accept Cloud at his worst (Nibelheim) none of this would've happened.
Tifa both accidentally helped saving the world (Cloud's thirst is what stops Sephiroth) and caused most of Cloud's problems (he would have never been injured and tortured if she gave him a little bit of attention).

Tifa in the lifestream is a textbook example of "You break it, you buy it".

Oh its not that people don’t have the cojones to address it, it’s because braindead takes aren’t worth addressing

 

[Dashell]

Long time no see to everyone in this thread... and hi to people I don't recognize. Did I really see Ryushikaze posting?... dang...

I didn't finish Remake and had no interest in Rebirth (don't have a PS5 anyway) but I have to say...

Wow. I did NOT expect Rebirth to be that Cloti... at all. I thought it'd be about the same as the original.

just wanted to stop by and say that. Hope everyone is doing well

 

[GamerSkull]

This is an interesting argument few have the cojones to address, mostly because Tifa turns them on (or they self-insert as Tifa) which means she's a flawless princess that can do no wrong, all character flaws are something else's fault.
And I quote, from some external video:

The biggest plot twist of the game is that Tifa did not accept Cloud at his worst, more like she didn't care.
If Tifa did accept Cloud at his worst (Nibelheim) none of this would've happened.
Tifa both accidentally helped saving the world (Cloud's thirst is what stops Sephiroth) and caused most of Cloud's problems (he would have never been injured and tortured if she gave him a little bit of attention).

Tifa in the lifestream is a textbook example of "You break it, you buy it".

Hmm… not sure I agree there.

Let’s not forget the reason Cloud was outcast… was not because of Tifa.

Also, Tifa did accept him at worst though. She has a brief moment of doubting him at the Northern Cave, mostly due to Sephiroth’s gaslighting but it was only for a moment.

Are you forgetting the part where he becomes a drooling vegetable and Tifa decides to abandon the party to take care of him, stating that he was all she cares about?

 

[faefolk]

This is an interesting argument few have the cojones to address, mostly because Tifa turns them on (or they self-insert as Tifa) which means she's a flawless princess that can do no wrong, all character flaws are something else's fault.
And I quote, from some external video:

The biggest plot twist of the game is that Tifa did not accept Cloud at his worst, more like she didn't care.
If Tifa did accept Cloud at his worst (Nibelheim) none of this would've happened.
Tifa both accidentally helped saving the world (Cloud's thirst is what stops Sephiroth) and caused most of Cloud's problems (he would have never been injured and tortured if she gave him a little bit of attention).

Tifa in the lifestream is a textbook example of "You break it, you buy it".

Lmao are you serious? Literally what makes the story so good is that all of the characters are deeply flawed and human. Do minimise Tifa into a pair of tits who turns people on so much they can't use their brains is just stupid.

You've just made some hectic claims about her not caring about Cloud and causing most of his problems without a shred of evidence to back it up. Please do explain how she didn't care about him and caused his problems? Because I honestly have no idea what you're talking about

 

[Someonesbunny]

This is an interesting argument few have the cojones to address, mostly because Tifa turns them on (or they self-insert as Tifa) which means she's a flawless princess that can do no wrong, all character flaws are something else's fault.
And I quote, from some external video:

The biggest plot twist of the game is that Tifa did not accept Cloud at his worst, more like she didn't care.
If Tifa did accept Cloud at his worst (Nibelheim) none of this would've happened.
Tifa both accidentally helped saving the world (Cloud's thirst is what stops Sephiroth) and caused most of Cloud's problems (he would have never been injured and tortured if she gave him a little bit of attention).

Tifa in the lifestream is a textbook example of "You break it, you buy it".

I'm pretty sure there was a book that came out recently that addressed parts of this...

Additionally, I suppose it's probably best to ask if people with this view if they see Cloud as a character with any agency at all. It's almost as if it's being suggested that only Tifa could make the choice of whether or not he would leave (and start this whole debacle). His feelings are a catalyst, his belief in his own inadequacies, etc. That she is at the center of it isn't really her choice either.

But she certainly makes a choice at Mideel. And that's not a light one to make either.

 

[faefolk]

Hmm… not sure I agree there.

Let’s not forget the reason Cloud was outcast… was not because of Tifa.

Also, Tifa did accept him at worst though. She has a brief moment of doubting him at the Northern Cave, mostly due to Sephiroth’s gaslighting but it was only for a moment.

Are you forgetting the part where he becomes a drooling vegetable and Tifa decides to abandon the party to take care of him, stating that he was all she cares about?

Or finding him in Midgar with mako poisoning and nursing him back to health after not seeing him for years lol.

Tifa was literally a kid who lost her Mum and then fell off a cliff and had memory issues afterwards lmao. It's wild to me how many people expect a literal traumatised child to be responsible for some other kids self imposed isolation.

 

[Empyrea]

That on top of Tifa's dad telling Cloud to stay away from her because he thought her falling off the bridge was his fault.

 

[Empyrea]

Tifa is actually my favorite character in all of FF7. And it’s not cuz she’s hot (although that’s a plus) but her entire character arc resonated with me the most.

Yeah she is my favourite too. She's so resilient and caring. Very selfless. It was something I admired so much as a kid and admire even more as an adult. She's a really great character!

Joining you guys in that club! Tifa and Zack are my faves in FF7!

In Tifa's case, I saw her arc at a point in my life where being a love interest usually comes with being a rather flat character and irrelevant to the plot.

Tifa subverts that by being a love interest and being indispensable. She also has a personality that's not only great, but also isn't on the extreme of too kind to the point of being a living doormat while still being flawed without being mean and catty.

Plus she kicks and punches with style while still being really feminine. Most characters like that are designated as tomboys.

 

[Hix]

Lmao are you serious? Literally what makes the story so good is that all of the characters are deeply flawed and human. Do minimise Tifa into a pair of tits who turns people on so much they can't use their brains is just stupid.

You've just made some hectic claims about her not caring about Cloud and causing most of his problems without a shred of evidence to back it up. Please do explain how she didn't care about him and caused his problems? Because I honestly have no idea what you're talking about

Wondering if @Kigan is referring to the scene (in OG) where Sephiroth calls Cloud "nothing but a clone"

Cloud hearing this, turns to Tifa and says;

“I am the one you grew up with. I’m Cloud of Nibelheim. No matter how much I lose faith in myself, that is the truth. That’s why you shouldn’t be so scared. No matter what anyone else says to me, it’s your attitude that counts…”

Tifa however cannot corroborate the story, whether that's because she's so unsure, or Sephiroth is manipulating her, or she's confused and in grief over Aerith's death, or most likely all those things.

But by Tifa not being able to back him up, that's what breaks Cloud. Not anything else - and he says so himself - all that matters and mattered was Tifa's opinion.

Nevertheless, as bad as this moment was (Cloud snaps, becomes Sephiroth's tool, eventually falls into the Lifestream) it's the precursor to Cloud's lowest moment, not the lowest moment itself.

Mideel is Cloud at his most vulnerable, confused, lost and broken. But there, Tifa not only accepts and loves him, but risks her own self by diving into his subconscious and mending his broken mind piece by piece. The beauty of this scene, for me, is the role reversal. Tifa's dream as a kid was a hero to come rescue her, but instead she ends up rescuing the hero - and only she can do it.

So yeah, she's not perfect, but she's perfect for Cloud. And her momentary confusion over his identity did not change her dedication to him. Tifa's, subtly, one of the best written characters in the franchise and her romance with Cloud is up there for me.