Mass Effect Series

[null]

At what point does being illogical and fallible give way to plain shitty writing? With all the other hand-waving and space magic going on, I'm not inclined to give this kid the benefit of the doubt and assume the dumb shit it says is due to highly nuanced character flaws.

 

[Hisako]

Spoiler

None of that has any bearing on what I said at all. The protheans united all races under their banner too, and they were decimated. Why didn't Star Child consider other options back then, instead of stomping the races world by world?
Their unity changes NOTHING. The same with Shepard being there. Shepard wouldn't have been there at all if the Catalyst hadn't elevated him/her to its platform. The fact is, nothing changed, it only changed because the plot demanded it for little reason at all.

Something had to change, so why not just say it did for the sake of the plot without even actually elaborating on why.

Enemies come, people join forces, issues arise in the future, they break off, something similar happens again, and it can all repeat. It's not for anyone to say what will happen. This is the big issue with this entire endgame.

Spoiler

The Protheans did not unite the races. They basically subjugated them and ruled them under an iron fist, which is markedly different from what Shepard achieved. Javik expresses as such.

Another key difference was that no cycle had used the Crucible beforehand. The star child stresses that that's what opened up these new options. That is the defining difference in this cycle; that Shepard managed to not only band the races together diplomatically, but that they achieved to build the Crucible where no other galaxy cycle had before. That unity had made all the difference, and the fact that putting the Crucible and Catalyst together signalled the point where it was time for the star child to change its approach.

Except these aren't simple AIs. They're thousands, possibly millions of years old, they've harvested and seeped into the minds of organics. There's no way they can't understand them at this point. The machine even goes so far as to assume the form of an organic.

Even going off of that assumption, that just makes it all the more glaring that

Spoiler

Shepard doesn't argue with this thing, she just accepts things as they are and takes the thing's word at face value and accepts these terrible choices. She doesn't try to make it see the error of its beliefs

Spoiler

Admittedly it is a bit strange that an AI like EDI could learn human values in a month or two, where something like the Catalyst could not for millions of years, but as far as speculation goes it could go both ways. The utter lack of interaction with any of the sentient species (besides blowing the shit up out of them) could mean that the star child may have gone on for millions of years without actually having the opportunity to understand any of them. Indoctrination has always only been a one-way street where the Reapers have forcibly turned them into servants.

 

[Max Payne]

Spoiler

The Protheans did not unite the races. They basically subjugated them and ruled them under an iron fist, which is markedly different from what Shepard achieved. Javik expresses as such.

Spoiler

That doesn't matter, they still united all of the races under one banner, some willingly, others not so much, but they still did it.

Spoiler

Hell it shouldn't even matter, the Catalyst doesnt even acknowledge these alliances, and completely dismisses the fact that synthetics have allied alongside the organics against them.

Another key difference was that no cycle had used the Crucible beforehand. The star child stresses that that's what opened up these new options. That is the defining difference in this cycle; that Shepard managed to not only band the races together diplomatically, but that they achieved to build the Crucible where no other galaxy cycle had before. That unity had made all the difference.

Yet this still really changes nothing. What does it change? What's the benefit? You can't even tell me what that thing is, what it does beside generate energy, how it was built, how the people who invented it knew it was directly intertwined with reaper tech. You can't tell me any of this.

Tell me. You can't.

What.

Does.

It.

Change.

Spoiler

Admittedly it is a bit strange that an AI like EDI could learn human values in a month or two, where something like the Catalyst could not for millions of years, but as far as speculation goes it could go both ways. The utter lack of interaction with any of the sentient species (besides blowing the shit up out of them) could mean that the star child may have gone on for millions of years without actually having the opportunity to understand any of them. Indoctrination has always only been a one-way street where the Reapers have forcibly turned them into servants.

They've delved into the minds of organics, harvested them, processed and re-purposed them. They should know the workings of an organic mind better than anyone, and they've had extensive interaction with them.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

Sorry if someone has already posted but I found this hilarious: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/new...pcakes-to-BioWare-in-Protest-of-Mass-Effect-3

Is this for real?

 

[Max Payne]

Animu designs.

 

[Lex]

Sorry if someone has already posted but I found this hilarious: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/new...pcakes-to-BioWare-in-Protest-of-Mass-Effect-3

Is this for real?

Yes, I donated towards it. Since Casey Hudson's exact statement was along the lines of "we would never force the fans into an A, B, C style ending" the cupcake campaign sends:

134 Red Cupcakes with the letter A
134 Green Cupcakes with the letter B
134 Blue Cupcakes with the letter C

The colours represent the colour of your ending.

It's a nice way to snidely get the point across, and I think it's fucking genius. Infact, the cupcakes should be arriving at BioWare HQ soon.

Also, regarding the immediately previous ongoing discussion; Dacon: I've never had much interaction with you before, but based on how intensely I agree with every word you said in your past like... 10 posts, I would like you to know that if I was anatomically equipped to do so - I would bear your children - and I am now in love with you.

I've posted a link to this before, but I'm going to directly quote it here because I think it's relevant (also it's been updated):

Spoiler: Lies My Developer Told Me.

Shameless Copypasta:

In my opinion Bioware produced a badly written, ill-conceived shambles
of an ending riddled with plot holes and logical inconsistencies but
even if you loved the final moments of this great game do you really
think what was stated in the interviews below has been proved true?

Maybe Walters, Gamble, Hudson et al will be proved right when a decent
ending is released via (presumably free) DLC that explains the
original ending was just some sort of hallucination/indoctrination.
I'm not holding my breath waiting for that though.


Official Mass Effect Website
http://masseffect.com/about/story/

“Experience the beginning, middle, and end of an emotional story unlike any
other, where the decisions you make completely shape your experience
and outcome.”

Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
http://popwatch.ew.com/2012/02/28/mass-effect-3-mac-walters/

“[The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass
Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers.”

Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
http://business.financialpost.com/2...on-how-the-game-tries-to-reach-all-audiences/

“I’m always leery of saying there are 'optimal' endings, because I think
one of the things we do try to do is make different endings that are
optimal for different people “

Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.computerandvideogames.co...rought-back-a-lot-of-what-was-missing-in-me2/

“And, to be honest, you [the fans] are crafting your Mass Effect story as
much as we are anyway.”

Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.360magazine.co.uk/interview/mass-effect-3-has-many-different-endings/

“There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How
could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and
then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t
say any more than that…”

Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...s-effect-3-ending-will-make-some-people-angry

“Every decision you've made will impact how things go. The player's also the
architect of what happens."

“You'll get answers to everything. That was one of the key things. Regardless
of how we did everything, we had to say, yes, we're going to provide
some answers to these people.”

“Because a lot of these plot threads are concluding and because it's being
brought to a finale, since you were a part of architecting how they
got to how they were, you will definitely sense how they close was
because of the decisions you made and because of the decisions you
didn't make”

Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2011/04/28/casey-hudson-interview-mass-effect-3.aspx

“For people who are invested in these characters and the back-story of the
universe and everything, all of these things come to a resolution in
Mass Effect 3. And they are resolved in a way that's very different
based on what you would do in those situations.”

Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://venturebeat.com/2012/03/02/c...t-3-with-the-sometimes-cranky-fans-interview/

“Fans want to make sure that they see things resolved, they want to get
some closure, a great ending. I think they’re going to get that.”

“Mass Effect 3 is all about answering all the biggest questions in the
lore, learning about the mysteries and the Protheans and the Reapers,
being able to decide for yourself how all of these things come to an
end.”

Interviewer: “So are you guys the creators or the stewards of the franchise?”
Hudson: “Um… You know, at this point, I think we’re co-creators with
the fans. We use a lot of feedback.”

Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/featu...fdsafdhudson-interviewae.aspx?PostPageIndex=2

Interviewer: [Regarding the numerous possible endings of Mass Effect 2] “Is that
same type of complexity built into the ending of Mass Effect 3?”
Hudson: “Yeah, and I’d say much more so, because we have the ability to
build the endings out in a way that we don’t have to worry about
eventually tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is
coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot
more different. At this point we’re taking into account so many
decisions that you’ve made as a player and reflecting a lot of that
stuff. It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings,
where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got
ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and
variety in them.”

“We have a rule in our franchise that there is no canon. You as a player
decide what your story is.”


EDIT: Couple more interesting quotes I found, enjoy......or not.


Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1027650/mass_effect_3_reapers_can_win_bioware.html

Mass Effect 3 will shake up the player's moral choices more than ever
before, even going so far as allowing the Reapers to win the battle
for Earth, according to BioWare's community representative Mike
Gamble.


In an inteview with NowGamer at Gamescom, we asked if BioWare was taking risks with Mass Effect 3's
plot, including a negative ending in which the Reapers win. Gamble simply said, "Yes". We asked him again to confirm what he had just said and he said, "Yes".


Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.nowgamer.com/features/12...per_interview_shepard_coop_story_details.html


"Of course you don’t have to play multiplayer, you can choose to play
all the side-quests in single-player and do all that stuff you’ll
still get all the same endings and same information, it’s just a
totally different way of playing"


Casey Hudson (Director)
http://gamescatalyst.com/2012/03/casey-hudson-kinect-the-future-of-interactive-stories/

“The whole idea of Mass Effect3 is resolving all of the biggest questions, about the Protheons and
the Reapers, and being in the driver's seat to end the galaxy and all
of these big plot lines, to decide what civilizations are going to
live or die: All of these things are answered in Mass Effect 3.”

Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.computerandvideogames.co...-go-on-holiday-our-dlc-is-really-good/?page=2

“There is a huge set of consequences that start stacking up as you approach the end-game. And
even in terms of the ending itself, it continues to break down to
some very large decisions. So it's not like a classic game ending
where everything is linear and you make a choice between a few things
- it really does layer in many, many different choices, up to the
final moments, where it's going to be different for everyone who
plays it.”


EDIT: Thanks to Skidrow-Garrett for pointing out another mystifying quote or two. It seems Bioware worked for years on the ending and are really pleased with it. I think it makes new DLC to address all the concerns less likely, unfortunately.

Ray Muzyka (Co-Founder of Bioware)
http://penny-arcade.com/report/edit...ss-the-old-republic-launch-ending-a-trilogy-a

“I just finished an end to end playthrough, for me the ending was the
most satisfying of any game I’ve ever played….the decisions you make in
this game are epic,”

“The team has been planning
for this for years, since the beginning of the Mass Effect franchise.
Largely the same team, most of the same leads have worked on this for
years and years. They’ve thought about [the ending] for years and years.
It’s not something they’ve had to solve in a week or a month even, but
over the course of five or ten years.”

 

[Hisako]

Anime designs look neato! Vega actually looks slightly less brick-house retarded.

Yet this still really changes nothing. What does it change? What's the benefit? You can't even tell me what that thing is, what it does beside generate energy, how it was built, how the people who invented it knew it was directly intertwined with reaper tech. You can't tell me any of this.

Tell me. You can't.

What.

Does.

It.

Change.

Spoiler

Why are you just ignoring what I've been saying?
It changes the star child's approach to the Reaper solution.
The benefit is that it allows for the possibility to break the cycle, rather than to have the same thing continue on for the next few millions of years.
The device itself is the proof that the races are capable of banding together and overcoming their differences without the need for conflict amongst each other. Oh, and the fact that it allows the Star Child to do something other than command the Reapers to wipe out advanced organic life.

I'm not disagreeing that Bioware needs to explain their stuff better, though. If they had, we wouldn't have been having this discussion.

But sure, all of the above changes nothing. Like seriously, why are you handwaving the central plot device of the game

 

[Max Payne]

Anime designs look neato! Vega actually looks slightly less brick-house retarded.

Spoiler

Why are you just ignoring what I've been saying?
It changes the star child's approach to the Reaper solution.
The benefit is that it allows for the possibility to break the cycle, rather than to have the same thing continue on for the next few millions of years.
The device itself is the proof that the races are capable of banding together and overcoming their differences without the need for conflict amongst each other. Oh, and the fact that it allows the Star Child to do something other than command the Reapers to wipe out advanced organic life.

I'm not disagreeing that Bioware needs to explain their stuff better, though. If they had, we wouldn't have been having this discussion.

But sure, all of the above changes nothing. Like seriously, why are you handwaving the central plot device of the game

I didn't handwave anything but goodjob completely disregarding everything I wrote in that post.

Spoiler

This ridiculous unity theme you're pushing isn't even explored in the endgame, it gets completely overlooked, the Catalyst doesn't give a shit. It only cares that Shepard is there.

Fuck sake man the Protheans built the Crucible too, but they couldn't finish it. They united the species but for some reason that doesn't matter to you.

 

[Hisako]

I didn't handwave anything but goodjob completely disregarding everything I wrote in that post.

I actually addressed the questions you were asking, but okay. Even answered each specifically in the order that you asked them, but I suppose it flies over your head if they're answers to rhetorical questions.

Spoiler

This ridiculous unity theme you're pushing isn't even explored in the endgame, it gets completely overlooked, the Catalyst doesn't give a shit. It only cares that Shepard is there.

Fuck sake man the Protheans built the Crucible too, but they couldn't finish it. They united the species but for some reason that doesn't matter to you.

Spoiler

The Catalyst recognises that Shepard is the first to actually meet it face to face, and it couldn't have done that without the Crucible, which in turn couldn't have been completed without the help of the other races.
The ideas of unity and the main device in the Crucible aren't mutually exclusive, mang. The fact that Shepard diplomatically unified the major races culminates in the completion and use of the Crucible. That is the proof that there was hope, but they just don't spell it to you out loud. And the difference between the Prothean Empire and the current galactic society was that Shepard got around to proving it to the star child, and the Protheans never did.

So in speculation, if the Protheans got around to using the Crucible, maybe the cycles would have been broken then. Who knows?

 

[Max Payne]

I actually addressed the questions you were asking, but okay. Even answered each specifically in the order that you asked them, but I suppose it flies over your head if they're answers to rhetorical questions.

Like hell you did. There's not even proper answers to the questions I posed. Because the game never provides any.

Also thanks for the passive aggressive insult.

Spoiler

The Catalyst recognises that Shepard is the first to actually meet it face to face, and it could have done that without the Crucible, which in turn couldn't have been completed without the help of the other races.

The ideas of unity and the main device in the Crucible aren't mutually exclusive, mang. The fact that Shepard diplomatically unified the major races culminates in the completion and use of the Crucible. That is the proof that there was hope, but they just don't spell it to you out loud. And the difference between the Prothean Empire and the current galactic society was that Shepard got around to proving it to the star child, and the Protheans never did.

Spoiler

Did you read what I posted? THAT DOESN'T MATTER TO THE CATALYST.

It doesn't care, it doesn't even acknowledge that there is an alliance. It sees everything as organics and synthetics.

Thematically sure, but we're not talking about that shit. You're throwing around a lot of supposition about why the Catalyst says and does the things and you have absolutely nothing to back it up. The thing says nothing about unity, organization, or alliances among organics.

People uniting against the Reapers isn't a new concept, it's seen it before with the Protheans. It doesn't need an organic to be right in its face to see that organics can ally together, and that doesn't even factor into the prevailing theme that the Catalyst pushes, which is synthetics vs organics. Whether organics ally or not, it is convinced that synthetics will rebel against them and kill them all eventually. That is all that matters to it.

 

[Hisako]

Like hell you did. There's not even proper answers to the questions I posed. Because the game never provides any.

Also thanks for the passive aggressive insult.

I'm miffed that you considered my response "completely disregarding everything" you wrote in your post. So I guess we just have to deal.

Spoiler

Did you read what I posted? THAT DOESN'T MATTER TO THE CATALYST.

It doesn't care, it doesn't even acknowledge that there is an alliance. It sees everything as organics and synthetics.

Thematically sure, but we're not talking about that shit. You're throwing around a lot of supposition about why the Catalyst says and does the things and you have absolutely nothing to back it up. The thing says nothing about unity, organization, or alliances among organics.

People uniting against the Reapers isn't a new concept, it's seen it before with the Protheans. It doesn't need an organic to be right in its face to see that organics can ally together, and that doesn't even factor into the prevailing theme that the Catalyst pushes, which is synthetics vs organics. Whether organics ally or not, it is convinced that synthetics will rebel against them and kill them all eventually. That is all that matters to it.

Spoiler

What I did was speculate, something which has been going around a lot concerning the consequences of the endings. When the star child points out Shepard's presence, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's all it cares about - it's simply using it as an example of the hope Shepard complains about. It spends the conversation acknowledging what the Battle on Earth, the activation of the Crucible has shown about its current "solution" - that it needs to be changed since the context of this cycle is different from those before. It obviously doesn't outright state the effect Shepard's new alliance has, but it doesn't mean it ignores it.

Also, as a footnote, Javik supposes that the main reason why Shepard's alliance is working better than the Prothean empire is that the races are fighting as unified individuals, as opposed to all of the enslaved/assimilated races fighting the same way - as Protheans. Part of that idea is rhetoric and gobbledygook, but from Javik's perspectives, those two ideas of unity are clearly different. And presumably that difference is why the Reapers were far better at beating the Protheans.

Unrelated: check out a cool Mass Effect fan album!

http://music.biggiantcircles.com/album/legacy

 

[Max Payne]

Spoiler

It spends the conversation acknowledging what the Battle on Earth, the activation of the Crucible has shown about its current "solution" - that it needs to be changed since the context of this cycle is different from those before. It obviously doesn't outright state the effect Shepard's new alliance has, but it doesn't mean it ignores it.

Spoiler

It in fact does not directly acknowledge the Battle on Earth at all. It speaks quite broadly. It never even states why its solution can no longer work, despite the Reapers pretty much mopping the floor with everyone. The crucible and Shepard being their made no difference at all. The AI simply decided arbitrarily that somehow it had failed, when the power of the crucible was at its mercy. The thing flat out said it could use its power itself, but it won't. It even went so far as to elevate a defeated Shepard to its platform to make a decision that WOULD stop its solution.

It makes no sense.

It merely explains that the reapers are its solution and why they created the cycle. It never acknowledges the unified alliance.

It speaks some unexplained garbage about how the crucible introduced new options with no explanation as to what it is or why something created by organics would be able to interface with reaper AI to begin with.

It does however acknowledge TIM, and Shepard. However, it never acknowledges Shepard's alliance at all. It speaks in broad generalizations referring to everyone else. There is no reason to assume that it does so either, considering how it doesn't even take note of the Geth/organic alliance at all.

Also it's pretty funny that you bring up the Protheans being taken down. The thing is, the Protheans lasted hundreds of years against the Reapers. This cycle the Reapers cut through everyone in days. At the rate they were going, the Battle on earth was it for everyone. The combined might of the galaxy came down on the Reapers, and they still got spanked hard.

This cycle did no better than theirs.

 

[Hisako]

Spoiler

Also it's pretty funny that you bring up the Protheans being taken down. The thing is, the Protheans lasted hundreds of years against the Reapers. This cycle the Reapers cut through everyone in days. At the rate they were going, the Battle on earth was it for everyone. The combined might of the galaxy came down on the Reapers, and they still got spanked hard.

This cycle did no better than theirs.

Spoiler

Brings up an interesting point. I'm not actually sure about the time scale involved for Mass Effect 3 (or for that matter, any of the previous games). I'd find it difficult to believe everything involved in the gameplay is all that close to real-time.

Likewise, I'd find it difficult to believe that the events involved, such as building the Crucible, or the systematic invasion of worlds, took place in a matter of days. I'm not entirely sure about it, but I think there were conversations in the game that discussed estimates as to exactly how long the Reapers would take for this cycle.

In any case, Javik believed that this alliance did better than the Prothean empire. I'd be inclined to believe the last remaining Prothean commander.

 

[Max Payne]

Spoiler

Brings up an interesting point. I'm not actually sure about the time scale involved for Mass Effect 3 (or for that matter, any of the previous games). I'd find it difficult to believe everything involved in the gameplay is all that close to real-time.

Likewise, I'd find it difficult to believe that the events involved, such as building the Crucible, or the systematic invasion of worlds, took place in a matter of days. I'm not entirely sure about it, but I think there were conversations in the game that discussed estimates as to exactly how long the Reapers would take for this cycle.

In any case, Javik believed that this alliance did better than the Prothean empire. I'd be inclined to believe the last remaining Prothean commander.

Spoiler

Look how fast Thessia went down. Hell Palaven was about to go down too, these are the most advanced species in the galaxy, and the turians had the strongest army. Earth was wiped out in a sudden blitzkrieg.

The Reapers were decimating everyone in record time. Each respective member of these races remarked on the insane speed the reapers were killing their people off at.

last remaining Prothean commander.

Javik thought the salarians were lizards. I wouldn't take his word for anything.

 

[Hisako]

Again, not really sure about the time scale. I wouldn't take these events at face value - it could be anything from days to weeks.
That isn't to say that the rate at which the reapers hit wasn't ridiculously fast - it was - but when the commander of the previous cycles forces asserts that militarily the races of this stance have a greater chance of survival, I'd be inclined to believe him.

 

[Madame Mayor]

As a military man, he sees their diversity as a asset, but he knows very little about their militaries other than that. He's basing his theory on that alone. Also remember, the Protheans knew about the Reapers before they were coming, and they actually believed it. So it stands to reason they were much more prepared than this cycle.

Unless you're talking about text later in the game. I'm just referring to when you first meet him.

 

[Hisako]

Well, yeah. Even at first he sees the dominant races as somewhat of a joke, wondering how exactly they've been able to put off extinction for so long.

But towards the end, he admits to Shepard that the things Shepard has done has given them more of a chance to beat the Reapers than the Protheans ever had.

 

[Carlie]

Regarding the time,

Spoiler

when Shep is talking to Tali at the end doesn't he imply that it's been a few months?

 

[Joker]

Yeah, in a few of the conversations there are definite indications of stuff like that; in at least one conversation with Hackett, for sure, because he's all 'we only lost Earth a few weeks (month? idr) back' and shep is all 'we didn't LOSE Earth 8['

Spoiler

Also remember that as far as Thessia goes, the asari were too stubborn to ask for ANY kind of help until the Reapers were way into their territory. Thessia had very clearly been under siege for quite a while, especially since all the people that were left were military.

Plus, it would take more than a few days to build that stupid thing. looks like a gigantic microphone

 

[Lex]

Spoiler: The Cupcakes.

 

[Max Payne]

Weeks, months my point still stands.

 

[Hisako]

The representation of time in Mass Effect is sort of awful and all, given the faster-than-light travel, the instant zipping about of ships on Mass Relays (although given the end cutscene of ME3 it seems moving between Relays actually takes quite a long time) and how it's all represented by seconds-long loading screens and out-of-scale zipping about a solar system like a model train set.

Kinda just reminds us how durr the science in Mass Effect is, although I wouldn't blame them for trying to downplay it. (lol biotics and elements with zero mass ie. space magic)

 

[Super Mario]

I THINK WE SHOULD USE THE FOURTH OPTION


I UNLOCKED IT JUST NOW




SHEPARD REPROGRAMS ALL REAPERS TO BE BIOLOGICAL DISCO HOUSES AND THE UNIVERSE IS ONE BIG OMEGA PARTY LMAO! TRUE STORY I SAW IT JUST NOW!!!

 

[Dawnbreaker]

Beware Bioware: The Cupcakes Are Coming to Get YOU!!!

 

[Vendel]

Didn't see this posted. This guy did a wonderful redletter type review of the ending. Worth a watch if you got 39 min.