Mass Effect Series

AKA
L, Castiel, Scotty Mc Dickerson
Head stuck in a bucket VS Mother aiding the Reapers VS Wife killed by enemies + dying from Keprall's VS Experimented on and raised in a facility VS Squad betrayed and killed VS Shot in the head by your partner VS Killing your serial killer daughter VS killing your mother VS Sterilizing an entire race VS Born unnaturally in a tank VS completely synthetic.

Yeah I think Tali can cheer the fuck up to be honest. :monster:


YOU HAVE TO WORK AT LOVE YOU INSENSITIVE BASTARDS!!!!!
:P
 

Legion.

For we are many
Yes, you in the stupid shirt over there

you


Also, I don't know if someone mentioned this before, but the basic premise given even by the trailer was that it was a total stealth mission, but I think they really should have done something to make it more apparent. The DLC is still ridiculously linear with very few 'alternate routes' that would have actually given the 'stealth' some sort of flavour. Sure, there might be some basic puzzle elements to spice things up, but it could have been expanded on so much more, to make stealth more accessible even for the fools who don't play as Infiltrators. :awesome:
In Bioware's own words, or a sort of close approximation thereof 'Arrival will have optional stealth bits'
Aside from that you're pretty much right. It's a simple linear shooting gallery with a couple puzzley bits. But then again for 560MSP it's not exactly like you're being ripped off. Especially when you consider that for the same price you can buy an optional character with about 5 lines of dialogue, that you can't actually converse with and who has no connection to either your Shepard or your mission.
 

Alex

alex is dead
AKA
Alex, Ashes, Pennywise, Bill Weasley, Jack's Smirking Revenge, Sterling Archer
Kasumi was fuckin' rad.
 

Legion.

For we are many
I'm not contesting that in the slightest, but beyond her recruitment/loyalty mission she serves no purpose in the game or story whatsoever. The game doesn't improve by much with her in it, and I would hardly notice if she was removed from the game. Same goes for Zaeed, but he was free and in that case you get exactly what you pay for.
 

Joe

I KEEP MY IDEALS
AKA
Joe, Arcana
Kasumi plays as much a role as any other friggin' character as far as all the squad members go. Miranda and Mordin seem to be the only two squad members that actually have any effect on the story whatsoever, and Miranda only because she is The Illusive Man's love slave.
Once a character's recruitment is out of the way, and their loyalty mission if you choose to do it, their part in the game is gone and they might aswell be replaced with a faceless goon because they won't influence the story in the slightest.

The only difference as far as Zaeed and Kasumi goes, is that they don't have a real recruitment mission and instead have a longer and more enthralling loyalty mission.

I'd take Zaeed over Jacob, Miranda, Grunt or Samara any day. I'd take Kasumi over every other crew member of ME2.
 

Legion.

For we are many
You've got to be kidding me. Every other character ends up with varying levels of connection with Shepard depending on how often you talk to them and the conversation options you choose. Zaeed and Kasumi spout one line phrases when you try and talk to them.
Keep in mind also that the story doesn't just mean Shep vs Reapers, if that were the case there wouldn't be any other characters. What Bioware excels at is writing a massively detailed and engaging narrative and characters, and putting you slap bang in the middle of everything with the ability to make friends, allies and enemies over the course of the game depending on your own preferences. That character interaction is as much a part of the story as anything else. Kasumi and Zaeed take no real part in that.
And as for the other characters having no effect on the story. Explain how seducing Morinth doesn't affect the story. Or how your characters loyalty at the end of the game affects who lives and who dies, which in turn affects the final cutscenes, and potentially, Mass Effect 3.
 

Alex

alex is dead
AKA
Alex, Ashes, Pennywise, Bill Weasley, Jack's Smirking Revenge, Sterling Archer
Keep in mind also that the story doesn't just mean Shep vs Reapers, if that were the case there wouldn't be any other characters. What Bioware excels at is writing a massively detailed and engaging narrative and characters, and putting you slap bang in the middle of everything with the ability to make friends, allies and enemies over the course of the game depending on your own preferences.
Really!? Oh my god, I'd been grabbing the entire franchise from the wrong end of the stick for ages! Thank heavens you've come along and set me right. :desu:
That character interaction is as much a part of the story as anything else. Kasumi and Zaeed take no real part in that.
Except for the fact that you do interact with them multiple times on their loyalty missions, this impacts the story just as profoundly as the loyalty missions for anyone else. The ending conversation between Shepard and Kasumi, for example, is one of the most personal and moving exchanges in the entire game, an example of character interaction and development that far surpasses Grunt's mindlessly violent quest for identity or Miranda's generic 'defrosting ice queen' development.

Like you said man, characters loyalties effect who lives and who dies at the end of the game, and these two characters are no different. Hell, its entirely possible to end up killing off Zaeed entirely, which can drastically reduce the options available to you in the suicide mission.
 

Joe

I KEEP MY IDEALS
AKA
Joe, Arcana
To start from the bottom. Seducing Morinth DOESN'T affect the story. It has about as much to do with the canon or plot, that getting killed by a goomba on a level of Mario does. You get the option to reload the game. The credits don't roll, therefore it isn't the end of the game/Shepard's journey. You won't be able to carry that choice through to ME3 at all, so it has NO effect on the story whatsoever.
Also to go on the fact that you said character's loyalty affects who lives at the end and who dies? The same goes for Kasumi and Zaeed. But guess what, if they die at the end alongside any other squad member, how is this going to change the reaper invasion in ME3?
Oh dear, Grunt died in my game. I needed him to convince the Krogans in Mass Effect 3 to side with me and win the war. Now the ending to Mass Effect 3 has already been decided for me. No. Not going to happen.

The story does mean Shepard vs Reapers, I'm sorry to say. Everything else is completely and utterly optional. You don't HAVE to recruit Thane, Morinth/Samara, Tali, Legion, Grunt at all and some people won't. But that doesn't change anything. The only thing that changes as far as the fight against the reapers, is that the respective doors to their rooms on the Normandy will not open. And yeah you can make friends or allies depending on your own preferences. But unless you are going to romance somebody, that counts for absolute shit. If you're not romancing Garrus, Tali, Miranda, Jacob, Thane, Jack; then they will say the same lines to you EVERY single time you have a playthrough of this game. That right there is no different to Kasumi or Zaeed. You can't have varying levels of connection with them in most circumstances, you just choose how many times you are going to talk to them. Their level of connection with you in this sense, changes absolutely nothing.

This is the one thing Dragon Age 2 did correctly, that Mass Effect needed work on. Characters do not influence the plot. Mordin does because he delivers a counter-measure to the seeker swarms. He is also necessary for upgrades to Shepard which affects anything from abilities to weapons that you will actually be using in combat.

It's nice that they are there, and the information and stories they impart as dialogue is real grand, one of the game's best features. But as far as involvement goes, they might aswell not be there. Save it for Mass Effect 3. At least the characters that survived ME1 and didn't join your squad in 2, DID something and influenced the plot. Those relationships from ME2, and 'varying levels of connection' might well influence ME3 greatly, but they didn't in the ME1-ME2. All that mattered was that aforementioned 'Love Interest?' tickbox.

 

Legion.

For we are many
Really!? Oh my god, I'd been grabbing the entire franchise from the wrong end of the stick for ages! Thank heavens you've come along and set me right. :desu:
That was actually aimed more specifically at this;
Once a character's recruitment is out of the way, and their loyalty mission if you choose to do it, their part in the game is gone and they might aswell be replaced with a faceless goon because they won't influence the story in the slightest.
-----
Except for the fact that you do interact with them multiple times on their loyalty missions, this impacts the story just as profoundly as the loyalty missions for anyone else. The ending conversation between Shepard and Kasumi, for example, is one of the most personal and moving exchanges in the entire game, an example of character interaction and development that far surpasses Grunt's mindlessly violent quest for identity or Miranda's generic 'defrosting ice queen' development.
The story does mean Shepard vs Reapers, I'm sorry to say. Everything else is completely and utterly optional. You don't HAVE to recruit Thane, Morinth/Samara, Tali, Legion, Grunt at all and some people won't. But that doesn't change anything. The only thing that changes as far as the fight against the reapers, is that the respective doors to their rooms on the Normandy will not open. And yeah you can make friends or allies depending on your own preferences. But unless you are going to romance somebody, that counts for absolute shit. If you're not romancing Garrus, Tali, Miranda, Jacob, Thane, Jack; then they will say the same lines to you EVERY single time you have a playthrough of this game. That right there is no different to Kasumi or Zaeed. You can't have varying levels of connection with them in most circumstances, you just choose how many times you are going to talk to them. Their level of connection with you in this sense, changes absolutely nothing.
Most of your interaction with Kasumi on her loyalty mission consists of her telling you what to do next to bust open the vault, or commenting on the treasures in Hocks vault. The only meaningful conversation you have with Kasumi is the bit at the end of her loyalty mission.
With Zaeed you get to choose whether to botch his mission or not aside from those two things, and the fact that both can die on the suicide mission, they have no other reason for being in the game, while almost everyone else has a recruitment/loyalty mission with about that same level of interaction. Not forgetting of course that there's a whole new conversation tree aboard the Normandy after every second mission (usually) which gives you a far greater chance to get to know more about each character, make them like you more or less, pursue a romantic relationship, upgrade the Normandy's weapon, shields or other functions. They all have a lot more deeper involvement in the game, and in Sheps life, than Z&K do.
With Tali you'll get to learn more about life on the flotilla and her own childhood, she'll talk more about the affect of her loyalty mission and what she thinks of her father, she talks about ME1 a little bit.
Samara explains more about her daughters and her life before becoming a Justicar and small nuggets about life in Asari space.
Mordin for christ sake, starts off talking about all this scientific gobble-dee-gook and over the course of the game, and many different conversation trees he warms up to you enough to sing a song from the Salarian version of Death of a Salesman (or something.)
The point is, all these characters grow and give you so much more insight into who they are and how they view life compared to Zaeed and Kasumi, and all this takes place on the Normandy over a natural (for a game) progression of time and regular interaction, not all blurted out at the end of a mission in a five minute cutscene.


Like you said man, characters loyalties effect who lives and who dies at the end of the game, and these two characters are no different. Hell, its entirely possible to end up killing off Zaeed entirely, which can drastically reduce the options available to you in the suicide mission.
Yeah they can die, but without having anywhere near as much of a chance to know anything about them other than 'Arsehole nicked my job' and 'bf died :(' (I know that's an oversimplification, but compared to other characters that is essentialy all they boil down to) even if you wanted to, their deaths seem to pale in comparison

To start from the bottom. Seducing Morinth DOESN'T affect the story. It has about as much to do with the canon or plot, that getting killed by a goomba on a level of Mario does. You get the option to reload the game. The credits don't roll, therefore it isn't the end of the game/Shepard's journey. You won't be able to carry that choice through to ME3 at all, so it has NO effect on the story whatsoever.
Also to go on the fact that you said character's loyalty affects who lives at the end and who dies? The same goes for Kasumi and Zaeed. But guess what, if they die at the end alongside any other squad member, how is this going to change the reaper invasion in ME3?
Oh dear, Grunt died in my game. I needed him to convince the Krogans in Mass Effect 3 to side with me and win the war. Now the ending to Mass Effect 3 has already been decided for me. No. Not going to happen.
Mostly because you'll have a much better chance convincing the Krogan to side with you by going through Wrex, who is respected (and their leader, that's a big plus), while they mostly just see Grunt as a lowly tank-bred ... thing. ;D
And who lives and who dies won't affect the Reaper invasion one little bit (probably) but it will affect the course of the story just as much as anything else, because if you pay attention, the characters all reference each other, they have their own friendships and rivalries with one another. If certain characters die and some others survive that's going to change things in ME3 probably in ways you wouldn't even think of. Small things mostly, for sure, but do you really think Bioware would make such a big deal out of the fact that everyone is expendable if it didn't have some significant effect on the next in the series?
 

Joe

I KEEP MY IDEALS
AKA
Joe, Arcana

With Tali you'll get to learn more about life on the flotilla and her own childhood, she'll talk more about the affect of her loyalty mission and what she thinks of her father, she talks about ME1 a little bit.
Samara explains more about her daughters and her life before becoming a Justicar and small nuggets about life in Asari space.
Mordin for christ sake, starts off talking about all this scientific gobble-dee-gook and over the course of the game, and many different conversation trees he warms up to you enough to sing a song from the Salarian version of Death of a Salesman (or something.)
That is all lovely, but how much relevance does it have to Shepard, Shepard's story and the grand scheme of things? Little to none. All of this could be put into a codex entry because it is not on a need to know basis. It's nice to hear these things from these characters sure, it gives the actual character some depth, but that doesn't mean it is important.


The point is, all these characters grow and give you so much more insight into who they are and how they view life compared to Zaeed and Kasumi, and all this takes place on the Normandy over a natural (for a game) progression of time and regular interaction, not all blurted out at the end of a mission in a five minute cutscene.
Please don't mistake character growth. These characters don't grow. They are one way before a loyalty mission, and then they are another way afterwards. This isn't growth, this is deliberate change to go alongside an important event for that one character. Kasumi comments and shows a different persona after her loyalty, and so does Zaaed. Again, in Zaeed's case you can completely kill him off on his mission. That is more character development than almost any of the others get.

Mostly because you'll have a much better chance convincing the Krogan to side with you by going through Wrex, who is respected (and their leader, that's a big plus), while they mostly just see Grunt as a lowly tank-bred ... thing. ;D
It was hypothetical, but good job seriously.


Small things mostly, for sure, but do you really think Bioware would make such a big deal out of the fact that everyone is expendable if it didn't have some significant effect on the next in the series?
Firstly, they didn't make such a big deal. Each character could die in the same way and got one line. One line to go alongside their death. No big deal there, it just happened.

Secondly, Kaiden/Ashley. BIG decision in who you chose there. Because they DEFINITELY didn't have almost the same lines as each other for their tiny and unimportant inclusion in Mass Effect 2. Seriously these characters were a BIG DEAL in ME1. The moment after they died it was a really important and changing moment. What happened as a result? Fuck all. A couple of words replaced others in their dialogue with Shepard, and their whole presence in the second game could have been removed and it would have made 0 difference.
 

Legion.

For we are many
That is all lovely, but how much relevance does it have to Shepard, Shepard's story and the grand scheme of things? Little to none. All of this could be put into a codex entry because it is not on a need to know basis. It's nice to hear these things from these characters sure, it gives the actual character some depth, but that doesn't mean it is important.
It has everything to do with Shepard and his mission. He's got a crew that he trusts and who trust him, enough for them to open up to him, which they do. It may not have such a direct impact on the game itself, but how the player interacts with the game world and the people in it has just as much impact on how the story is perceived and enjoyed as anything else. Especially in a game where 90% of everything you do and say is entirely optional. Also not forgetting that this is a Bioware game, where half the point of the game is the little details.

Please don't mistake character growth. These characters don't grow. They are one way before a loyalty mission, and then they are another way afterwards. This isn't growth, this is deliberate change to go alongside an important event for that one character. Kasumi comments and shows a different persona after her loyalty, and so does Zaaed. Again, in Zaeed's case you can completely kill him off on his mission. That is more character development than almost any of the others get.
Really? I beg to differ.As I said, Mordin goes from just talking scientific stuff, then a few more conversations in he outlines his work on the modified genophage, and then later (this is before you even do the loyalty mission) goes into a conversation with you about the morality of the genophage and how being a part of the team that modified it affected him. And it's not just Mordin. every character is, to varying degrees, fairly similar in the amount of potential conversation and character growth.
Sure the characters warm up to you more, and quicker if you do their loyalty missions, but it's certainly not just a 'one way before mission/different after mission' Not by a long shot, there's genuine character growth that works its way out through the game slowly, and in stages.
And being able to kill someone off in their loyalty mission isn't character growth, that's just, being able to kill them.

It was hypothetical, but good job seriously.
I know, that was meant lightheartedly.

Firstly, they didn't make such a big deal. Each character could die in the same way and got one line. One line to go alongside their death. No big deal there, it just happened.[/quote
]How many lines they get before they die isn't what it's about, the fact that they can die is. You think they have time to stand around in the Collector base listening to each characters last words, or are they in a massive rush to destroy an imminent threat to every species in the galaxy?The suicide mission is the one part of the game where limited dialogue and options is forgivable, even necessary, to keep up the pacing the game. To give you more of a sense of urgency than you otherwise would.

Secondly, Kaiden/Ashley. BIG decision in who you chose there. Because they DEFINITELY didn't have almost the same lines as each other for their tiny and unimportant inclusion in Mass Effect 2. Seriously these characters were a BIG DEAL in ME1. The moment after they died it was a really important and changing moment. What happened as a result? Fuck all. A couple of words replaced others in their dialogue with Shepard, and their whole presence in the second game could have been removed and it would have made 0 difference.[/I]

Kaidan and Ashley weren't the focus of ME2, the other characters were. The way I see it they were only included in ME2 as a stark reminder that while you think you might be on the right track, you're working with the bad guys. Given both Kaidan and Ashleys intensely Alliance background there was no way they could be realistically included as party members in ME2. That says nothing for their potential to appear in ME3 though.
They weren't the only ones left out either. Liara had one or two small sidequests for you and some info on two of your potential recruits and that was it until 6+ months after the games release. Just because a character has diminished importance towards the middle of the story doesn't necessarily stop them from coming back in force in the conclusion of the story.
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
Really? I beg to differ.As I said, Mordin goes from just talking scientific stuff, then a few more conversations in he outlines his work on the modified genophage, and then later (this is before you even do the loyalty mission) goes into a conversation with you about the morality of the genophage and how being a part of the team that modified it affected him. And it's not just Mordin. every character is, to varying degrees, fairly similar in the amount of potential conversation and character growth.

Sure the characters warm up to you more, and quicker if you do their loyalty missions, but it's certainly not just a 'one way before mission/different after mission' Not by a long shot, there's genuine character growth that works its way out through the game slowly, and in stages.

And being able to kill someone off in their loyalty mission isn't character growth, that's just, being able to kill them.
okay, here is every female character (aside from jack) post loyalty mission (assuming female shepard): Thank you Shepard, I really trust you.

Variations depend on character and renegade/paragon options, but that is pretty much all that happens. Shit, male characters don't tell you much unless you decide to romance them. Garrus tells you pretty much nothing if you don't 'mance him because he wordvomits everything that happened to him over the past two years in your first convo. Miranda just complains about how she doesn't think she's worthy because gentic enhancement blah blah, and Jacob is just abs with a Kanye West face.

shit, in comparison, Kasumi and Zaeed have a hellova lot of character development. You know the sort of character that each one is and that is pretty much all you can ask for in this game: Grunt doesn't change, Samara doesn't change, Jack doesn't change, Jacob doesn't change, most of the characters do not change in the least. You just get a strong sense of each one's personality and that's all you can really ask for.
 

Hisako

消えないひさ&#
AKA
Satsu, BRIAN BLESSED, MIGHTY AND WISE Junpei Iori: Ace Detective, Maccaffrickstonson von Lichtenstafford Frabenschnaben, Polite Krogan, Robert Baratheon
I wouldn't say that none of them change, at least in some sort of aspect. The majority of the loyalty missions have something to do with closure. Granted, I never actually got Kasumi or Zaeed (making my Suicide Mission less complicated imo, :monster:), but Shepard definitely makes an impact on all their lives in some sort of way.
 

Joker

We have come to terms
AKA
Godot
To start from the bottom. Seducing Morinth DOESN'T affect the story. It has about as much to do with the canon or plot, that getting killed by a goomba on a level of Mario does. You get the option to reload the game. The credits don't roll, therefore it isn't the end of the game/Shepard's journey. You won't be able to carry that choice through to ME3 at all, so it has NO effect on the story whatsoever.
Also to go on the fact that you said character's loyalty affects who lives at the end and who dies? The same goes for Kasumi and Zaeed. But guess what, if they die at the end alongside any other squad member, how is this going to change the reaper invasion in ME3?
Oh dear, Grunt died in my game. I needed him to convince the Krogans in Mass Effect 3 to side with me and win the war. Now the ending to Mass Effect 3 has already been decided for me. No. Not going to happen.

The story does mean Shepard vs Reapers, I'm sorry to say. Everything else is completely and utterly optional. You don't HAVE to recruit Thane, Morinth/Samara, Tali, Legion, Grunt at all and some people won't. But that doesn't change anything. The only thing that changes as far as the fight against the reapers, is that the respective doors to their rooms on the Normandy will not open. And yeah you can make friends or allies depending on your own preferences. But unless you are going to romance somebody, that counts for absolute shit. If you're not romancing Garrus, Tali, Miranda, Jacob, Thane, Jack; then they will say the same lines to you EVERY single time you have a playthrough of this game. That right there is no different to Kasumi or Zaeed. You can't have varying levels of connection with them in most circumstances, you just choose how many times you are going to talk to them. Their level of connection with you in this sense, changes absolutely nothing.

This is the one thing Dragon Age 2 did correctly, that Mass Effect needed work on. Characters do not influence the plot. Mordin does because he delivers a counter-measure to the seeker swarms. He is also necessary for upgrades to Shepard which affects anything from abilities to weapons that you will actually be using in combat.

It's nice that they are there, and the information and stories they impart as dialogue is real grand, one of the game's best features. But as far as involvement goes, they might aswell not be there. Save it for Mass Effect 3. At least the characters that survived ME1 and didn't join your squad in 2, DID something and influenced the plot. Those relationships from ME2, and 'varying levels of connection' might well influence ME3 greatly, but they didn't in the ME1-ME2. All that mattered was that aforementioned 'Love Interest?' tickbox.

Hold on there, chief. You're wrong - at the very least about Mordin.

After all, if it weren't for him, who knows what would have happened when Shep and Thane got into oral?
 

Joe

I KEEP MY IDEALS
AKA
Joe, Arcana
Hallucinations. :monster:

Common sense dictates that much about frog boy.

jZ460.jpg
 

Max Payne

Banned
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
The characters didn't need to change though. Just go through something to learn more about them. Character exploration is just as good as character development.

ME2 is light on both. Ultimately it is all about the mission.
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
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Jacob_Character_Box.png

SEPARATED AT BIRF

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