Naruto Anime/Manga (Manga Spoilers Not Tagged) [WSJ]

[X-SOLDIER]

Tobi's personality fundamentally changed AFTER he took up the name "Uchiha Madara" when we first see his Sharingan. He's seen before somewhat acting this way during the attack on Konoha when he's leading others to believe that he's Madara, or other times when he's being serious. When he's being "Tobi" his persona is very different suggesting that there's more to him than just the names he's been hiding behind for achieving his goals.

I'm assuming that his rise as the leader of Akatsuki took place shortly after the REAL Madara died, hence the, "My power, Uchiha Madara's power." line. That gave Tobi the opportunity to take Madara's name and persona completely, which is why he doesn't swap back to his more jovial Tobi persona after this, as he's playing a role. As "Madara" he claimed to have given Nagato the Rinnegan. The REAL Madara Uchiha had clearly interacted with Nagato, (since he expected to be raised by Rinne Tensei and not Edo Tensei), so I'm assuming this is a part of Tobi attempting to play the role of "Madara" by claiming that he'd done the things that Madara had.

I don't see the difference in personality between the kid we saw in Kakashi Gaiden & the man who's leading the war being an issue, especially because of the changes that we've seen in characters like Gaara. In only 3 years he's gone from a murderous psychopath into someone who gave his life to save the village who tortured him. If Obito somehow survived his traumatic injury out in the battlefield in the middle of the war (assumedly by being healed by the First's DNA), and THEN had been under the guidance of the REAL Uchiha Madara for the last 20+ years, there's a very real possibility of his personality being VERY twisted from we saw when he was younger.



X

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Am I wrong in thinking that part of the reason why Obito/Tobi doesn't want the ninja system in place may be in part because of what it did to Sakumo and by extension, Kakashi? 'Cause if it is, this'll be an interesting couple of chapters for Kakashi.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Am I wrong in thinking that part of the reason why Obito/Tobi doesn't want the ninja system in place may be in part because of what it did to Sakumo and by extension, Kakashi? 'Cause if it is, this'll be an interesting couple of chapters for Kakashi.

That's a spectacular point.

I've also always thought that the Moon's Eye Plan was an interesting solution for peace. If Tobi is Obito, I can see the idea for the plan partly coming from his experiences with Kakashi and Sakumo. Also, I would speculate that when he survived, he would have spent a great deal of time afterwards suffering from his injuries, and wanting to escape his own physical difficulties. He might have speculated on ways to solve the world in a virtual way that avoids aspects of physical suffering. (If Nagato's plan for peace was Nuclear Armament, Tobi's plan is creating the Matrix).

This avoidance of physical pain, and attempt to avoid war is also clear in the way that he goes about conducting his Moon's Eye Plan. He starts by directly appealing to the Kage under the threat of war. When it comes to war, he conducts it using an army made of clones designed to mimic their opponents to make it difficult to fight, and essentially lock them in a standstill rather than resorting to subterfuge and other tactics (aside from the ones that came about after he was stuck teaming up with Kabuto).

Either way, I'm wicked stoked to see what happens over the next few weeks, and if it means some more Kakashi development and or backstory, then I couldn't be more pleased. Also, it looks like this upcoming week's release is a double issue and we'll be on break after that 'til the 20th, so here's to hoping for a super kickass chapter!


X

 

[Roger]

Tobi's personality fundamentally changed AFTER he took up the name "Uchiha Madara" when we first see his Sharingan. He's seen before somewhat acting this way during the attack on Konoha when he's leading others to believe that he's Madara, or other times when he's being serious. When he's being "Tobi" his persona is very different suggesting that there's more to him than just the names he's been hiding behind for achieving his goals.

I'm assuming that his rise as the leader of Akatsuki took place shortly after the REAL Madara died, hence the, "My power, Uchiha Madara's power." line. That gave Tobi the opportunity to take Madara's name and persona completely, which is why he doesn't swap back to his more jovial Tobi persona after this, as he's playing a role. As "Madara" he claimed to have given Nagato the Rinnegan. The REAL Madara Uchiha had clearly interacted with Nagato, (since he expected to be raised by Rinne Tensei and not Edo Tensei), so I'm assuming this is a part of Tobi attempting to play the role of "Madara" by claiming that he'd done the things that Madara had.

I don't see the difference in personality between the kid we saw in Kakashi Gaiden & the man who's leading the war being an issue, especially because of the changes that we've seen in characters like Gaara. In only 3 years he's gone from a murderous psychopath into someone who gave his life to save the village who tortured him. If Obito somehow survived his traumatic injury out in the battlefield in the middle of the war (assumedly by being healed by the First's DNA), and THEN had been under the guidance of the REAL Uchiha Madara for the last 20+ years, there's a very real possibility of his personality being VERY twisted from we saw when he was younger.



X

Well it had been a year or so between Gaiden and the Kyuubi attacked and it's not like being evil is the only difference between Tobi and Obito, the guy that Minato faced was a tall sophisticated and capable shinobi. I mean, he's only been under Madara's tutelage for a matter of months and he's not only a Kage level fighter, capable of summoning the Kyuubi, but completely callous about killing his sensei, his sensei's child and wife without a hint of hesitation.

I'm not saying it can't be done but Kishimoto better have some really good ideas about how to sell that change in flashbacks.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

The age thing is an excellent factor to consider. I forgot how soon afterwards that took place. I would guess that it may involve him having Hashirama's biomatter to build up his own, and also possibly the fact that there's some evidence to suggest that both Madara and Tobi both wore the mask to assume a single identity, but that's all VERY speculative at best.

I can hardly wait for the next chapter, and hope that we get our answer BEFORE WSJ skips a week.


Also- the anime's been pretty friggin' great lately. Has anyone else been watching it?


X

 

[Alex Strife]

I watch the anime, but I have to admit I haven't been able to watch 272 yet!

I always "knew" the war would be really cool when its time to go on TV came, but yes, it is indeed very good.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I was a little saddened that 272 wasn't quite as epic as it was in the manga. It doesn't convey a sense for just how staggeringly powerful Hanzo is as well as the manga did for me, which was too bad. It's still a decent episode though. I'm REALLY looking forward to seeing the next episode, because it's a 2-part episode all about Ino-Shika-Cho Vs. Asuma.


X

 

[Xinda]

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/597

 

[Alex Strife]

Shame that half the chapter is explaining something we already knew.

But holy shit he really seems to be Obito! It shouldn't be possible. Now I'm even more anxious to know who this guy is!

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's Obito. The fight at Kannabi Bridge is where Kakashi Gaiden took place, and where Obito died and Kakashi got Obito's Sharingan. Given Tobi's response, and anger..it's Obito.

I would not be surprised if Obito's rage, despair and cynical outlook towards Kakashi, his words, and the entire shinobi world has something to do with Rin's death and Kakashi's inability to protect her.

Tobi specifically said "You're just words and no action! What someone like you says is worth nothing!"

And Obito's last wish to Kakashi was for him to protect Rin. Clearly, Kakashi may have failed.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Oh holy shit, this chapter has some of the absolute BEST moments that've happened ever, on top of having some utterly SPECTACULAR artwork.

Kurama swapping consciousnesses with Naruto to tell Tobi that Naruto's got what it takes to win, was just. fucking. epic. in the truest sense of the word. The color N-A-R-U-T-O panel showing him growing up is something that's gonna become a new background for me. Also, the split panel with Kakashi & Tobi's face was simply amazing.

I also rather liked that they explained in some detail how his technique works, especially that only the parts of him that intersect with other objects are transported, and that he's not completely intangible.


Also, if Tobi IS Obito, (like I'm hoping) it might give us a chance to find out what happened to Rin (since Obito had loved her and Kakashi swore to protect her because of it). Plus, does the panel talking aobut words and actions quote refer to something recent, and/or could it be referring to this bit about Obito wanting his words to match his actions? (Also, I find his goals and intimate knowledge of Kakashi to be rather telling of the connection).


EDIT: Apparently Mako & I are thinking along the same lines, but I took a lot longer to go look links and things up for my response. ^^;


X

 

[Alex Strife]

Oh yes, you're right X. Currently I thought all of his body became intangible, and not just part of him. It was 7am or 8am (without sleeping) when I read it. I checked it out now, and was able to see new stuff there.

The Naruto color panel was cool indeed. But of course I noticed that earlier too.

In all fairness, it makes sense that Tobi got his eye at Kannabi Bridge, even if he wasn't Tobi. You know, because Obito was there, so he would have obtained his eye from there. I'm not saying he's not Obito, because it looks... very, very likely. But still.

What you guys think is what I think too, as it makes sense. It's just that... I "grew up" to reject the Obito = Tobi explanation, a few years ago. And for now in the recent months to suddenly become plausible and, in the end, true... Sigh.

Let's go with it, I guess. Check it out, Tobi has Obito's hair. They really are the same person.

EDIT: I remember, it must have been... a couple of months ago? Something made me see they could really be the same person, and I was writing about it, going to post it here. And then I was like "No, it can't be! The ages wouldn't match, it just can't be" so I will be disappointed if it's Obito anyway. Because Kishimoto-sensei will have to pull out something strange to explain the apparent age incoherencies.

I guess the original Madara did not die against Hashirama, and interacted with both Nagato and Obito before he died but... seems a bit forced to me.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Well, if Obito was the same age as Kakashi, then they'd both have been about 14 during the Attack on Konoha. However, Obito & Rin graduated the Academy and Chunin exams at ages 9 & 11, while Kakashi did the same at 5 & 6, suggesting that he might've been as old as 18 by then depending on the age difference between them. Given that Naruto's currently 16 and has changed SIGNIFICANTLY since the Vanilla series, both physically and emotionally, I don't think it's TOO implausible to speculate that Obito could've been the masked person who briefly went toe-to-toe with Minato, especially given the Sharingan's abilities.

I went through the same "growing out of it" phase with the Obito/Tobi theory, up until my post last week. It's been a really interesting series of Yes/No feelings lately.



X

 

[Roger]

Well, if Obito was the same age as Kakashi, then they'd both have been about 14 during the Attack on Konoha. However, Obito & Rin graduated the Academy and Chunin exams at ages 9 & 11, while Kakashi did the same at 5 & 6, suggesting that he might've been as old as 18 by then depending on the age difference between them. Given that Naruto's currently 16 and has changed SIGNIFICANTLY since the Vanilla series, both physically and emotionally, I don't think it's TOO implausible to speculate that Obito could've been the masked person who briefly went toe-to-toe with Minato, especially given the Sharingan's abilities.

I went through the same "growing out of it" phase with the Obito/Tobi theory, up until my post last week. It's been a really interesting series of Yes/No feelings lately.



X

Obito was 13 years old according to the 2nd databook and obviously he was drawn to greatly resemble BTS Naruto. I'd say he was 15-16 at the Kyuubi attack.

Personally I'm sceptical, we're meant to believe he's Obito now, and we're still a few chapters away from getting his mask off. I think the real reveal is coming in chapter 600.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Kurama is just getting more and more badass as the series goes by. I really like how his evidence that Naruto is different is that Naruto made friends with him (as opposed to thinking he was a bunch of random energy shaped like a fox). The fact that he says it just to make Tobi shut up is pure win.

On the Tobi/Obito theory. One of the things Kishomoto does best is deconstructing conspiracy theories (I don't know what else to call them) that come about because of to obvious reasoning and rebuilding them with something much less obvious, but much more substantial. The Uchiha massacre is a good example. For the Tobi/Obito theory, the obvious connection is Tobi/Obito's hair, personality, missing sharingan etc. So Kishimoto has completely deconstructed those. Now, even if Tobi is Obito, it won't be because of any of that, which are some pretty shallow similarities. It will be for a lot of other reasons that are much more important to the story.

I've probably learned more about how to make realistic characters from reading Naruto then from anywhere else.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I suppose this could be Kishimoto's attempt at a massive, and well done misdirection, but on the flip side.

If it walks like an Obito, talks like an Obito, and looks like an Obito...I can't help but think it's Obito

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I was more talking about how ever since Tobi came on the scene there has always been some people who thought he could be Obito. The we found out what Tobi really wanted and that was so much at odds with what Obito was like it was pretty much a given that he couldn't be Obito. Now there's a good chance he is Obito, but it's because we have an idea of how Obito could have Tobi's goals.

 

[Alex Strife]

It was said "two weeks", which would mean next week we should know who Tobi is.

But with 600 being so close... yes, I believe it makes more sense for it to be 600, and not 598. Although he could reveal it on 598 and make a badass 600 or something. I just don't know anymore.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Kurama is just getting more and more badass as the series goes by. I really like how his evidence that Naruto is different is that Naruto made friends with him (as opposed to thinking he was a bunch of random energy shaped like a fox). The fact that he says it just to make Tobi shut up is pure win.

The fact that Kurama's actually had a character arc show up the last little bit has really just made the manga that much more fantastic. The ways and reasons that he gets along with Naruto now are just so well established, and I honestly CAN NOT WAIT for the anime to reach this point, cause hearing that voice come from Naruto will just be spectacular. The fact that it happened in this chapter during a moment where Tobi's trying to break Naruto's resolve, and Kurama's just like, "Woah, woah, woah. I got this-" "Bitch, you obviously don't even know this kid, because there's no way that he's gonna fail to take you DOWN." XD

On the Tobi/Obito theory. One of the things Kishomoto does best is deconstructing conspiracy theories (I don't know what else to call them) that come about because of to obvious reasoning and rebuilding them with something much less obvious, but much more substantial. The Uchiha massacre is a good example. For the Tobi/Obito theory, the obvious connection is Tobi/Obito's hair, personality, missing sharingan etc. So Kishimoto has completely deconstructed those. Now, even if Tobi is Obito, it won't be because of any of that, which are some pretty shallow similarities. It will be for a lot of other reasons that are much more important to the story.

I've probably learned more about how to make realistic characters from reading Naruto then from anywhere else.

Having written a disgusting amount of theories about Naruto, I know how true this is. That's another reason why I'd sort of "grown out" of the Tobi/Obito theory after a while. It's also why I did that writeup about why I felt ok if he did turn out to be Obito after all this time, and the story-centric reasons on why I feel that that connection is important now, and actually holds some weight.

It was said "two weeks", which would mean next week we should know who Tobi is.

But with 600 being so close... yes, I believe it makes more sense for it to be 600, and not 598. Although he could reveal it on 598 and make a badass 600 or something. I just don't know anymore.

An interesting thing about Naruto that I discovered while rereading it about a year ago is that Kishimoto seems to do a really good job of writing Naruto to have story-specific reveals of growing importance about every 25, 50, and 100 chapters (give or take 2-3 chapters). I wouldn't be surprised if this is one that's specifically held out for a -00 chapter, like Naruto's birth story was.


X

 

[Alex Strife]

Yes, that's what I thought too. So I thought it was strange for him to say something like "You'll find out who Tobi is in two weeks".

Sounded a bit too specific for me. But maybe something was lost in translation. Either way, 600 should be epic.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I can always try to hunt down the interview and re-translate it.

I'm sure 600 will be amazing, and we'll be finding out soon either way.



X

 

[Alex Strife]

Indeed!

 

[Kai Schulen]

I knew that clinging to the theory that Tobi = Obito all these years would pay off.

(Unless Kishimoto trolls me again.) But still, I thought Obito's right side was crushed, unless he activated Kamui at the time?

 

[Alex Strife]

Good point.

But at this stage, who knows anymore.

 

[Xinda]

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/598