Naruto Anime/Manga (Manga Spoilers Not Tagged) [WSJ]

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Oh man... Kakashi is taking this HARD, and seeing him this affected by it emotionally followed by him nearly passing out after using Kamui was so intense. The fact that Tobi managed to do some decent damage to Hattsan was also pretty impressive.

I'm hoping that this tactic leaves the clone in Tobi's phase space so that he's forced to fight Naruto there OR fight Kakashi in the real world. It was an AWESOME tactic, and we're almost CERTAINLY getting a shot of Tobi sans mask next week! Woooooooooo!!



X :neo:
 

Alex Strife

Ex-SOLDIER
Unnghhhhh!!!

This chapter was good, and next week, next week!! It can't come soon enough.

I thought maybe Tobi could be Rin. But then again, male voice. :lol:
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/35952829/1

I just got around to reading MangaStream's translation. Their scan quality is a bit better, and as usual it's worth reading because of some differences in the translations.

When Tobi attacks bee with the chakra stakes, he's also attempting to seal and repress Hachibi's power, like he did with the other Biju (like what we saw with Son Goku). It was situationally apparent, but the dialogue makes it a lot more clear.

Also, some of Tobi's dialogue taunting Kakashi for not being quick enough using Kamui on Naruto's Rasengan, as well as Naruto's Biju Dama apparently striking too late.



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Elisa Maza

Whomst
Welp, it was Obito, OK. Congrats to those who guessed right. I liked how it was a silent chapter.

(Obito wanted to become a Hokage, too? The hell????? How much does the Hokage earn and everyone wants this position??????????)

Now, all that remains is to explain how the hell Obito attacked Minato and Kushina, since he was supposed to be a kid back in that time. Unless Tobi is like Batman and V, an idea, anyone can be behind Tobi's mask with the right mindset. We'll see...
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Looks like the translators had an easy job this time!

All I can say is that chapter 600 is going to be crazy!

Anyone else get the feeling that Kakashi Gaiden was a ginormous red herring? I have this picture in my head of Kishimoto cackling with glee whenever people think it was just about how Kakashi got his sharingan.
 

Joe

I KEEP MY IDEALS
AKA
Joe, Arcana
Hi. I'm back on TLS for one reason. That reason is simple.
To gloat.

I was right I was right I was right I was right I was right I was right I was right I was right I was right I was right I was right I was right I was right I was right. :monster:
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
^^Great question as Minato dies soon after this. And the Third Shinobi war was going on during this time. Timeline problems?
 

Joe

I KEEP MY IDEALS
AKA
Joe, Arcana
See I was confused because Obito (and the other two) looked TALLER and thus OLDER in this chapter than they did in the Kakashi Gaiden. Anybody else think this?
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Yeah... I wonder if Kishimoto goofed in Kakashi Gaiden 'cause they're supposed to be as old as Naruto is at the start of the manga and they look younger then him. Maybe he corrected himself?
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Well a lot of the other Jounin are ~30 now. So Genma's age didn't really surprise me that much. Also, it's worth noting that Kakashi is a few years younger than Obito & Run, which may be why everyone seemed a little too young before.

(I'll post details and my opinions in depth when I get to a computer later today)


X :neo:
 

Kai Schulen

... ... ...▼
AKA
Trainer Red
VICTORY DANCE FOR TOBI = OBITO

As for the timeline, well...

- Kakashi becomes Chuunin when he's 6 years old, (though in the flashback, he looks a bit older than 6...) so I'm guessing that Rin and Obito were about the same age or a bit older (like 7 years old?) since they were there with him.
- Rin and Obito become chuunin when they're 11, according to the Naruto wiki.
- Kakashi Gaiden happens when Kakashi's 13, Kakashi becomes a Jounin shortly before the Gaiden
- Naruto is born, Obito comes back from the grave!!! Kyuubs attacks, Minato and Kushina die when Kakashi is 14.

But then...it doesn't quite explain why Guy is there since he's about the same age as Kakashi but he graduated from the academy when he was 7 and Kakashi became a Chuunin when he was 6. But of course, Kakashi's 9 months younger than Guy (for he is a January baby, d'awww) so the Chuunin exam could've happened anytime between January 1st and September 15th.

And like how Elisa said, it doesn't explain how Obito was all grown up when he attacked Minato and Kushina when he's supposed to be Kakashi's age, unless a Timey-Wimey ball happened?!

As for why they look older in this flashback than they did in Gaiden...Art evolution, maybe? :monster: Genma is older than Kakashi by 3 years, so by the time of Minato's death he would've been 17 and could've been serving as Minato's bodyguard for a couple years.

One last thing: OMFG YOUNG HAYATE (I HAVEN'T SEEN THAT FUCKER AROUND IN YEARS) AND YOUNG AOBA AND YOUNG EBISU



....wait a goddamn minute.
...How the fuck is Anko even in the Chuunin exam when she's younger than Kakashi but graduated from the academy when she was 10?! Nevermind what I said eariler about the timeline, it's all hosed up.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
So, here we go:


One, I have to say that the way the whole chapter was done without dialogue was amazing, and is something that I don't think they'll be able to do in the anime when it gets there. It's one of those things that makes me really appreciate the medium for storytelling.


On to the storyline itself. The whole chapter serves as an INCREDIBLY tense framing device for Kakashi Gaiden, with very specific emphasis on Obito's relationship with Rin. Especially given the fact that the last time that Kakashi & Obito officially spoke, it specifically involved taking care of Rin, which - as far as we know (especially given Kakashi's quote to Sasuke about all his precious comrades being dead) - ended in some kind of tragedy. I'm actually more curious about what happened with Rin than I am with anything else right now.



There're some specifics that bear looking in to that I'm interested to see about Obito's own history which cover the following:



1) How Zetsu recovered Obito and took him up as a pupil (hence their relationship when "Tobi" joins Akatsuki).

• Zetsu is STILL A FUCKING WILDCARD who we know nothing about, despite him being revealed in the original series. We need to start getting some details on what he's doing, and how closely he's connected to both Madara & Obito, because there's just way too much that could be going on with him for me to really speculate at all.


2) What exactly caused Obito to start developing the Moon's Eye Plan, follow Madara and eventually "become him" and generally turning bitter towards the world.

• It's clear that Tobi was a pupil of sorts under Madara, although there are some specifics that remain to be seen about why and how that took place. It's clear that he was using Obito as a proxy body for himself in some scenarios, and that Madara was behind everything that's been taking place. It's not clear if the Moon's Eye Plan is Obito's own ambition that he set into motion when Madara died, and he completely adapted the identity, or if it was a part of Madara's original ambitions.
• While I had been wondering about Obito's level of talent when going against the 4th Hokage, his apparent ability to turn Kyubi into a thrall, and how he managed to fool people like Kisame from behind a mask, I came to a conclusion on how this all came out. I'm almost certain that he would have used his Sharingan to copy Madara's mannerisms and techniques. Itachi was known to have been capable of forging Shisui's handwriting because of his Sharingan (even though he didn't), but I don't think I've ever really thought about the Sharingan's application in mimicing someone until he was juxtaposed against the Copy Ninja Kakashi.


3) How often Obito was masquerading as "Madara" and how often Madara himself was involved, and why/when that started. Here's my speculation on that matter:

• I'm assuming that the REAL Madara gave up his Rinnegan to Nagato (in order to achieve something involving Rinne Tensei, and possibly connected to the Uzumaki's chakra), since he has a LOT of long-term goals. This was also his first step in setting up Akatsuki. This meant he was was forced into becoming, "a shadow of his former self" after giving up his Doujutsu. That makes Itachi's statements still true, as he was hiding behind Akatsuki, and he was stopped by the 4th (when Tobi was defeated), which makes the statement indirect, rather than direct confrontation.
• Madara was seemingly also responsible for controlling the Mizukage, because the dialogue between Tobi & Kisame makes it seem like Kisame would have known the real Madara (plus there's the long hair), and Tobi said that Kisame was the closest to him, and apologized for his deceit in pretending to be Madara. Interestingly, Kisame apparently still knew Obito.
• Obito was clearly responsible for the attack on Konoha, although I have a suspicion that Madara may have been present.
• Obito was also responsible for involvement with the Uchiha Massacre, although I DO believe that Itachi also met the real Madara during this time, which is why we see Madara's long hair when they're talking. (I also think that there's LOTS more to this plan then is being shown now, because Obito still has his cache of Sharingan from that event hidden in his dimension that hasn't been used yet).



LASTLY: Age/Art Comparison: Kakashi & Guy at the Academy vs. Kakashi & Guy during the Konoha Attack. (I'll try to see if I can make sense of any of the Age oddities later, but Trainer Red sums it up pretty well). Not that I mind HORRIBLY, but still...


X :neo:
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
So, X-SOLDIER, your theory is that the Tobi that fought Minato:
1000px-Tobi_Chains.png


Is a different Tobi than the one Itachi met?
1000px-Madara.PNG
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
I'm almost certain that he would have used his Sharingan to copy Madara's mannerisms and techniques. Itachi was known to have been capable of forging Shisui's handwriting because of his Sharingan (even though he didn't), but I don't think I've ever really thought about the Sharingan's application in mimicing someone until he was juxtaposed against the Copy Ninja Kakashi.

I wouldn't equate mimicing someone's handwriting to mimicing the movements of someone so quick and strong he could probably use the five kages as juggling sticks if he really felt like it. And we shouldn't use Sasuke and Itachi as baseline indicators for what the average Sharingan is capable of. Even Sasuke's antics in the Forest of Death were suppose to indicate that he keener eyes then even Itachi.

Anyway like X-SOLDIER, I don't really mind that what the first databook said about Kakashi becoming Chuunin at 6 has been retconned. That was way before the Akatsuki were even thought up and is obvious hampering to storytelling as it obviously seperates him from everyone else that could appear in flashbacks set in the Fourth Hokage's era (which we were obviously always gonna have). But the Genma thing still bothers me since it's a fairly recently introduced plot point.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
@Theozilla: Yup. Same with the "Tobi" who controlled the Mizukage vs. the one who reveals himself to Kisame later on in chapter 404. I've been suggesting for quite a while the idea that the real Madara has been present anytime we see long hair behind the mask. My latest post is just a restatement of claims I've made earlier that were wrapped in other theories.

I wouldn't equate mimicing someone's handwriting to mimicing the movements of someone so quick and strong he could probably use the five kages as juggling sticks if he really felt like it. And we shouldn't use Sasuke and Itachi as baseline indicators for what the average Sharingan is capable of. Even Sasuke's antics in the Forest of Death were suppose to indicate that he keener eyes then even theories

I was more referring to copying his jutsu to control Kyubi, as well as copying his more subtle mannerisms and movements, so that from behind a mask, they'd seem to be the same person. Also- Itachi wasn't accused because of his prowess, it was a statement about Sharingan users in general made by the other Uchiha clan members accusing him.

Anyway like X-SOLDIER, I don't really mind that what the first databook said about Kakashi becoming Chuunin at 6 has been retconned. That was way before the Akatsuki were even thought up and is obvious hampering to storytelling as it obviously seperates him from everyone else that could appear in flashbacks set in the Fourth Hokage's era (which we were obviously always gonna have). But the Genma thing still bothers me since it's a fairly recently introduced plot point.

Agreed completely with this. I wish we knew more about what level Kakashi was at then so we might be able to infer some information about that being a little more plausible.


X :neo:
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
@Theozilla: Yup. Same with the "Tobi" who controlled the Mizukage vs. the one who reveals himself to Kisame later on in chapter 404. I've been suggesting for quite a while the idea that the real Madara has been present anytime we see long hair behind the mask. My latest post is just a restatement of claims I've made earlier that were wrapped in other theories.

That would mean then that both Obito-Tobi and Madara-Tobi would have been active at the same time, and Madara would have died right before the beginning of the series/after the Uchiha clan slaughter (if Itachi indeed meet the real Madara in addition to Obito).
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
That would mean then that both Obito-Tobi and Madara-Tobi would have been active at the same time, and Madara would have died right before the beginning of the series/after the Uchiha clan slaughter (if Itachi indeed meet the real Madara in addition to Obito).

I do believe that they're active during the same periods of time, and Tobi-Obito was functioning as a proxy for when Madara wanted to be present, but didn't want to physically risk himself (like when they assaulted Konoha and had to fight/distract the Forth Hokage). Hence why Madara's always in the shadows until his resurrection. I'm not sure when he would have died specifically, but it could've been at a number of points.


X :neo:
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
I just noticed something that is either another timeline retcon (one that is more problematic than Kakashi's chūnin age being changed) or simply an art error.
tumblr_m9iph8kCmF1rzghoio1_500.jpg

Minato's face is shown already carved into the Hokage Monument before even Kakashi or Obito are even chūnin (and I believe it was clearly stated in Kakashi Gaiden that Minato was not yet the Hokage).
The only way I can see this being explained without it being a retcon to the timeline or an art error is that Minato had already been selected to succeed Hiruzen (and thus the village decided to preemptively carve his face), but simply chose not ascend to the office until after the Third Shinobi World War ended (and even that is still a very wonky explanation, I think art error is the most likely explanation).
 
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Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Good catch. Speaking of the Hokage monument, the first time I saw it, I wondered what Mt. Rushmore was doing in a manga.

I always thought the whole "we can copy handwriting" about the sharingan was funny. Think of how good you could get at forgeries.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
@ Theozilla: I noticed this too, but forgot to bring it up.

At the start of Kakashi Gaiden, Minato does refer to himself as a Jounin - just like Kakashi. This would reinforce the idea that he isn't yet the Hokage, which would make it seem like this is an art error...


...However, this whole event takes place during the Third Shinobi World War. This point is important for two reasons that may ALSO explain some things that everyone's been wondering about in this flashback. Here's what may explain it (assuming that it's not an error):


First: There typically isn't a change in leadership during wartime, and especially during a World War. Minato's WAY more useful on the battlefront than he is running the country, and it's conceivable that the Third may have remained in place because of this to strategic advantage of the country.

There's a specific statement from Chapter 542 makes me think that Minato's election to be Hokage may have been decided earlier by the Daimyo, but postponed due to the war: When Minato fights against Ay & Bee he says, "You have yourself a good family, and good followers... as do I.... The next time we meet, we will be putting the title of 'Kage' on the line." As far as I can tell, he doesn't appear to OFFICIALLY be the Hokage during this period of time: One - he's not wearing his Kage cloak. Two - the Rock Shinobi recognize him as the "Konoha's Yellow Flash" and so do the Cloud Shinobi, rather than recognizing him as the "4th Hokage". However, his statement to the Raikage makes it seem like he's aware of the fact that he'll be taking that status in Konoha soon, even though it isn't official - which I assume would become so after the war.


Second: It's also mentioned that Konoha's military power is at an all-time low, and events in Gaiden make this VERY apparent. This would ALSO explain why after the war Genma & Raido could have become the Fourth Hokage's personal bodyguards (so as to learn the Flying Thundergod Technique). With military personnel at an all time low to start with, and AFTER suffering even more military casualties throughout the war, it's EXTREMELY likely that they proved themselves in battle. So, despite initial hesitation, I don't think that it's too unlikely that they may have received significant promotion during/because of the war.



X :neo:
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
@ Theozilla: I noticed this too, but forgot to bring it up.

At the start of Kakashi Gaiden, Minato does refer to himself as a Jounin - just like Kakashi. This would reinforce the idea that he isn't yet the Hokage, which would make it seem like this is an art error...


...However, this whole event takes place during the Third Shinobi World War. This point is important for two reasons that may ALSO explain some things that everyone's been wondering about in this flashback. Here's what may explain it (assuming that it's not an error):


First: There typically isn't a change in leadership during wartime, and especially during a World War. Minato's WAY more useful on the battlefront than he is running the country, and it's conceivable that the Third may have remained in place because of this to strategic advantage of the country.

There's a specific statement from Chapter 542 makes me think that Minato's election to be Hokage may have been decided earlier by the Daimyo, but postponed due to the war: When Minato fights against Ay & Bee he says, "You have yourself a good family, and good followers... as do I.... The next time we meet, we will be putting the title of 'Kage' on the line." As far as I can tell, he doesn't appear to OFFICIALLY be the Hokage during this period of time: One - he's not wearing his Kage cloak. Two - the Rock Shinobi recognize him as the "Konoha's Yellow Flash" and so do the Cloud Shinobi, rather than recognizing him as the "4th Hokage". However, his statement to the Raikage makes it seem like he's aware of the fact that he'll be taking that status in Konoha soon, even though it isn't official - which I assume would become so after the war.


Second: It's also mentioned that Konoha's military power is at an all-time low, and events in Gaiden make this VERY apparent. This would ALSO explain why after the war Genma & Raido could have become the Fourth Hokage's personal bodyguards (so as to learn the Flying Thundergod Technique). With military personnel at an all time low to start with, and AFTER suffering even more military casualties throughout the war, it's EXTREMELY likely that they proved themselves in battle. So, despite initial hesitation, I don't think that it's too unlikely that they may have received significant promotion during/because of the war.



X :neo:

Hmmm, those additional comments/lines of dialogue does make that sort of explanation less wonky (if it indeed is not an accidental art error) but...the very first page of Kakashi Gaiden displays the Hokage Monument without Minato's face on it (I doubt the text box is blocking his face it s way too small).
naruto-1567454.jpg

So even if Minato's selection as Hokage at the beginning/during the Third Shinobi World War but simply not being officially inducted can work as a non-retcon explanation, the presence of his face in the monument does not seem it can be explained without it being a retcon (or an art error).:huh:
 
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