Naruto Anime/Manga (Manga Spoilers Not Tagged) [WSJ]

[Theozilla]

Rin turning traitor on Konoha or Kakashi killing Rin because they're in a desperate scenario...Both of these situations seem really unlikely to me because it'd be so out of character of them.

If anything, it seems like this was a very tragic mistake, like Rin was trapped by the enemy and then used as a shield last second. (Something similar to Kawarimi, maybe?) I doubt it's an illusion since it won't work on Sharingan and all.

Goddamnit, poor Kakashi. :<

Kakashi has been put under genjutsu before (granted it was Itachi, another Sharingan an user) but I don't think the Sharingan automatically nullifies all non-Sharingan genjutsu.

 

[Kai Schulen]

Kakashi has been put under genjutsu before (granted it was Itachi, another Sharingan an user) but I don't think the Sharingan automatically nullifies all non-Sharingan genjutsu.

Huh, I guess my brain farted and I got it all mixed up. Derp.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

From what I've seen, the sharingan doesn't nullify any ninjutsu/genjutsu. What it does do is indicate what chakra is doing so Kakashi can copy the ninjutsu or know exactly how to cancel the genjutsu.

Just thought of something. This is when Kakashi gets his Mangekyou Sharingan. When he first gets the saringan in only has two tomoe. So this is probably when it gets the third one. And Kakashi just unknowingly fulfilled the requirement for Mangekyou. Only since Kakashi isn't an Uchiha it's abilities doesn't match up exactly with Sasuke's, Itachi's and Madara's. You could actually say that Kakash killing Rin has been hinted at ever since we've known Kakashi has Mangekyou as she is the only one who fulfills the requirement who died without us knowing how she died.

 

[Alex Strife]

I was actually reaching the conclusion it could have been a Genjutsu. But... whose?

 

[X-SOLDIER]

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/605

I have a lot to ponder.


X

 

[Alex Strife]

Could Rin be an enemy spy?

Just pondering various options, at this point.

 

[Kai Schulen]

I still refuse to believe that Rin could've been a spy. ...At least I'm hoping she wasn't. It's likely they might've used an experimental jutsu on her or something, going by the comments of "Just when we finally managed to get out hands on it" and "We can't let the enemy get their hands on their corpse".

Of course if she was a spy, they might've wanted her body cause there's ways to get secrets from the dead...

 

[Roger]

The Mist ANBU trying to secure the body does seem like a call back to Kakashi description of Haku not letting Zabuza's body fall into their hands for fear of their secrets being discovered. If she has special Kinjutsu/Kekkai Genkai of her own then it's most iconic Cloud ninja douchebaggery, since it's less fear of the Leaf learning something they don't want them too but rather just furthering of their own gathering of the unique jutsus.

If as said it's their own field experiment that they tried on an enemy ninja but still required to body for testresults, it seems a little too contrived to make Kakashi kill her. Mist ninja kill 90% of their graduation classes anyway, you gotta go involve Konoha Shinobi in this cause you don't wanna waste friendlies? I have trouble buying that.

So yeah, Rin being a spy seems like the likeliest answer.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Well, well, well.

Rin either had information or something else valuable that the Mist was highly interested in to justify a goddamn ANBU-level army escorting her. I was initially betting on her just being a spy like Kabuto and having information they needed, because the way the first two react to the fact that Kakashi took her out.

However, the Mangastream translation makes it seem more like may be Rin's capabilities as well because they say, "We have to retrieve the girl at the very least. We can't let the enemy get their hands on that corpse." Like Minato mentioned, this is also their ANBU standard procedure for them covering their own tracks, but it also makes me think that she may have some unique abilities that they may have wanted to reobtain. It might be that she had to flee from her home from the type of Kekkei Genkai persecution similar to Haku's situation, and because of her abilities, Mist is attempting to reclaim her.

We know that it's already within the era of the Bloody Mist, but it's not clear if that practice has actually ended yet, or if they're still undergoing death matches for their ranked graduation. Kakashi & Zabuza are the same age, and Zabuza slaughtered his class at age 9, so it's hard to tell, since Kakashi graduated everything young. It's also not yet clear if Madara's extending his influence to Mist or not at this point, though I'd suspect that Tobi's movement into Mist happens as a result of this incident.

What we DO learn about Madara is that there's a reason that he chose Obito, which is mentioned by Zetsu, and apparently has to do with his affinity for the Mokuton Ninjutsu. It should ALSO be noted that in addition to the branches that formed, Obito also started growing black chakra rods from his body. I'm almost certain that this means that we'll be getting some insight into how the Senju/Uchiha genetics plays into how Gedo Mazo functions with its Rinnegan counterpart.

Now that Obito's kinda lost his shit, I wonder what's gonna happen to Rin's body and Kakashi. I would've assumed that he'd take his Sharingan back or attempt to do SOMEthing because of Kakashi's betrayl - but clearly that doesn't happen. We know that Kakashi somehow escapes this, and likely doesn't learn how to control his Mangekyo (or possibly even have the chakra to really use it at all) until much later. I'd also be willing to bet that this incident is why he joins Konoha's ANBU for a while as it gives him a way to hide his identity (something that I'm hoping we'll see during his flashback Point of View of the events).

Lastly, I just have to say that I don't recall the last time we saw this much blood in Naruto. Even though it's not really IN the war, it's nice to actually see some real mortality again, even if they're just a masked squad.



X

 

[Super Mario]

Man no wonder he ended up the way he is today. Love does bad shit people.

 

[Roger]

Still tho, he's in HELL? 7-year old Sasuke sat through 36 hours of watching his beloved brother slaughter his family and comparatively took it like trooper. Obito is such a dramaqueen.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Still tho, he's in HELL? 7-year old Sasuke sat through 36 hours of watching his beloved brother slaughter his family and comparatively took it like trooper. Obito is such a dramaqueen.

Obito spent months trying to grow back half his body and recover from being mutilated with Rin as his single hope, only to watch his friend who swore to keep her safe murder her. Sasuke's clan initially being slaughtered was intense, but you can't even attempt to compare it to Itachi subjecting him to Genjutsu to relive his trauma.


X

 

[Roger]

Obito spent months trying to grow back half his body and recover from being mutilated with Rin as his single hope, only to watch his friend who swore to keep her safe murder her. Sasuke's clan initially being slaughtered was intense, but you can't even attempt to compare it to Itachi subjecting him to Genjutsu to relive his trauma.


X

I don't really see what qualifies Rin as Obito's single hope, this is a guy with big family and dozens of friends, a sensei and a village waiting for him. Yeah, his childhood crush died, but Obito's "Hell" is pretty much the life BTS Gaara, Naruto, Sasuke and Neji long for. And yet, even though this a ninja that has gone through war and emotional training to prepare for losses like this, this is by far the most overblown reaction to anything we have ever seen in the manga so far. Nagato's reaction to Yahiko throwing himself on the kunai Nagato himself was holding is the only thing that can even compare.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I don't really see what qualifies Rin as Obito's single hope, this is a guy with big family and dozens of friends, a sensei and a village waiting for him. Yeah, his childhood crush died, but Obito's "Hell" is pretty much the life BTS Gaara, Naruto, Sasuke and Neji long for. And yet, even though this a ninja that has gone through war and emotional training to prepare for losses like this, this is by far the most overblown reaction to anything we have ever seen in the manga so far. Nagato's reaction to Yahiko throwing himself on the kunai Nagato himself was holding is the only thing that can even compare.

Well, when he thought he was going to die, the only thing he wants is for Kakashi to protect and keep her safe. In Chapter 599, she's shown as basically being the only one who really pays any attention to him, so I don't know where you're getting the idea that he has a big family and dozens of friends.

Also - you can't even claim that Obito's somehow emotionally trained to deal with this kind of thing. All throughout Kakashi Gaiden he's always letting his emotions get the better of him, and tearing up over little things. Not to mention that his BIGGEST character trait is that he cares more about the safety of his friends than accomplishing a mission.

Now, after slowly overcoming grievous injuries while trapped in a cave for months, he thinks he finally has a chance to meet back up with them, and put everything back to normal, and be a strong part of a team again. Instead he runs out to finally see his two team mates - one who he's been completely enamored for years with being murdered by the one person he left to protect her, and SEES IT IN FIRST PERSON THROUGH HIS OTHER EYE.

I can't really see how you think that him totally losing his shit is an over-reaction.



X

 

[Roger]

Well, when he thought he was going to die, the only thing he wants is for Kakashi to protect and keep her safe. In Chapter 599, she's shown as basically being the only one who really pays any attention to him, so I don't know where you're getting the idea that he has a big family and dozens of friends.

Well Rin and Kakashi were the only ones there and didn't exactly have time to write a eulogy. We see him in a circle of friends on page 12 and he's an Uchiha, we know there were a crapload of them in those days.

Also - you can't even claim that Obito's somehow emotionally trained to deal with this kind of thing.

Yes, I can. We have TOLD as much. Ninjas undergo emotional training.

All throughout Kakashi Gaiden he's always letting his emotions get the better of him, and tearing up over little things. Not to mention that his BIGGEST character trait is that he cares more about the safety of his friends than accomplishing a mission.

Plenty of characters in this story have those character traits.

Not even Gaara, after ACTUALLy personaly killing the actual only person that ever cared about him, period started inflicting as much pain as humanly possible to anyone in front of him for half an hour.

And you're basically agreeing with me in the above quote anyway, he's quite the dramaqueen, which was the original point you took offense with,

 

[Obsidian Fire]

What makes Obito a drama-queen compared with other people in series is the scale he's trying to fix. From what we know, this is the event that changes Obito into Tobi. We also know that Kakashi still thinks Obito is dead, which seems to indicate Obito did not get in touch with Kakashi and probably didn't figure out what was going on. Obito's reaction to this event (when he doesn't know the circumstances?) is to put an end to war by putting everyone in an endless genjutsu, in other words, because Kakashi killed Rin, Obito is putting everyone in the Matrix so they can't have conflict. Uh, yeah, Obito is a drama-queen.

Everyone else who has had this type of reaction has been a lot more realistic with their goals. None of them are world-wide or leave people unable to make their own choices. At the very least, they try to figure out what happened so they can make an informed choice on how the deal with the situation, and when new information presents itself, they change their minds.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Well Rin and Kakashi were the only ones there and didn't exactly have time to write a eulogy. We see him in a circle of friends on page 12 and he's an Uchiha, we know there were a crapload of them in those days.

You mean the group of his classmates that's gathered around to try to plan Kakashi's Jounin promotion? Despite that being a group event, all of the previous panels of him make it seem like he's a bit of a loner who spends his spare time helping out old ladies or training, when he's not being occasionally noticed by Rin - and ignored by everyone else in the panel. Plus, the Uchiha are a CRAZY elitist group, and I can't imagine that Obito would be widely accepted, especially being so untrained with his Sharingan.

Yes, I can. We have TOLD as much. Ninjas undergo emotional training.

Which just sets an emotional baseline for EVERY character in the series who's a ninja - which is basically everyone. It's been overwhelmingly shown that Obito's not very strong emotionally. Hell, the chapter about him in Gaiden is even called "Crybaby Ninja". Insinuating that he's emotionally prepared to deal with those losses just because he's "received ninja training" is completely going against his character development.

Not even Gaara, after ACTUALLy personaly killing the actual only person that ever cared about him, period started inflicting as much pain as humanly possible to anyone in front of him for half an hour.

And you're basically agreeing with me in the above quote anyway, he's quite the dramaqueen, which was the original point you took offense with,

One - Gaara didn't actually personally kill Yashamaru, Yashamaru blew himself up in an attempt to murder Gaara. Two - after that happened Gaara lost control to his rage, transformed into Shukaku and rampaged through his own village, so yeah, he kinda did exactly that.

The main difference is that Gaara was emotionally unstable, and randomly murdering people for minor offenses before that point, because of the emotional instability of being a Jinchuriki. When Obito goes on a rampage, he's attacking people that Konoha was at war with, and who were also actively attempting to kill him and responsible for the situation where he lost Rin. This is also the point where the powers he's using aren't developed or completely under his control at all, so he's at least slightly comprable to the Jinchuriki in terms of his rampage.




Moving on to THIS week:


http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/606




Obito really just wants to live in an idealized world, "A world of peace, a world of winners, a world of love." He wants to make the world a better place for everyone.

Madara is preying on this desire in order to accomplish his own goals. He's using the allure of Obito bringing his friends into a better word in order to make his own ambitions fall in line with what Obito is motivated to accomplish, and giving him a messiah complex on top of that. I'd say that this chapter takes a post-trauma event and Obito's actions from this point aren't really his own goals.

For a direct comparison, this is exactly like Sasuke's goals being manipulated by Itachi just after seeing his clan murdered. He's not in a state of thinking rationally, and he's continually reacting to the high emotional state and goals that he's focused on in this particular moment.


It's REALLY interesting that Hashirama's tissue didn't do anything for Madara until he was almost dead, and THAT'S what caused him to develop the Rinnegan. It's interesting that he summoned the husk of the ACTUAL Jubi though. I'd noticed the similarities, but it's impressive that this is the genuine article, and not just a clone, like the Zetsu. I think that the fact that it was a catalyst for the Lotus is somehow important to an inner trait that it possesses, though I'm not sure what.

It's also interesting that this combination is what allows him to control and summon Gedo Mazo. This makes me CRAZY curious about what the end goal of Danzo's experiments, and to what degree Orochimaru was involved with them, and what he was attempting to accomplish, especially if he seemingly had information beyond the basics here.


Also - FINALLY, we find out about Black Zetsu. He's formed from a Yin/Yang Ninjutsu that's like the other half of the matter. The relationship makes a lot of sense, especially given the fact that we see them growing from Obito. It's also interesting that they're chakra sensitive, whereas the Senju portions are more physically sensitive. This also explains the relationship the two of them have, and how Black Zetsu is often the one reinforcing the goals, but it's still an entirely separate entity from Madara, like how White Zetsu is to Hashirama. Lastly, it's also how Madara can ensure that Obito doesn't stray from the path that he set him on, even after he dies (though it's not clear why he needed to die).


I'm still hoping that they more clearly detail why Obito wasn't planning on using the Rinne Tensei to bring back Rin, although I assume that contextually it's because he wants to change the world, and his implanted messiah complex is strongly reinforcing that urge.



X

 

[Roger]

You mean the group of his classmates that's gathered around to try to plan Kakashi's Jounin promotion? Despite that being a group event, all of the previous panels of him make it seem like he's a bit of a loner who spends his spare time helping out old ladies or training, when he's not being occasionally noticed by Rin - and ignored by everyone else in the panel. Plus, the Uchiha are a CRAZY elitist group, and I can't imagine that Obito would be widely accepted, especially being so untrained with his Sharingan.

The Uchiha are not crazy. You can't dismiss Obito behaviour with that. These are the Uchiha that threw Madara out to serve Hashirama loyally. They didn't have a problem until they got the blame for the Kyuubi attack. Also, the Sharingan is a RARE gift among Uchiha, they are not the Hyuuga, FAR from all of them get it. And he's unpopular, he's far from presented as an isolated loner.

Which just sets an emotional baseline for EVERY character in the series who's a ninja - which is basically everyone. It's been overwhelmingly shown that Obito's not very strong emotionally. Hell, the chapter about him in Gaiden is even called "Crybaby Ninja". Insinuating that he's emotionally prepared to deal with those losses just because he's "received ninja training" is completely going against his character development.

One - Gaara didn't actually personally kill Yashamaru, Yashamaru blew himself up in an attempt to murder Gaara. Two - after that happened Gaara lost control to his rage, transformed into Shukaku and rampaged through his own village, so yeah, he kinda did exactly that.

No, it's exactly as you said. He lost control of the Shukaku, he fell asleep, then people started dying. Obito is actively conciously doing the utterly horrific things he's doing in the past issue.

The main difference is that Gaara was emotionally unstable, and randomly murdering people for minor offenses before that point, because of the emotional instability of being a Jinchuriki. When Obito goes on a rampage, he's attacking people that Konoha was at war with, and who were also actively attempting to kill him and responsible for the situation where he lost Rin. This is also the point where the powers he's using aren't developed or completely under his control at all, so he's at least slightly comprable to the Jinchuriki in terms of his rampage.

First of all, no. Gaara pretty much put him at death's door himself. The dialogue made it pretty clear neither of them expected him to survive.

http://www.mangareader.net/93-135-16/naruto/chapter-130.html

Secondly, this is his reaction

http://www.mangareader.net/93-136-2/naruto/chapter-131.html

He cries and then he asks why. Which is perfectly reasonable

Just with that, the 8-year year old who just lost the only person to have ever cared about it has already proven itself FAAAAAAR more emotionally stable then Mr. "I WILL DFEFINITELY NEVER ACCEPT THIS OOOOOOOOOH! OOOOOOOOH! OOOOOOOOH! I AM IN HELL!!"

http://www.mangareader.net/93-136-7/naruto/chapter-131.html
http://www.mangareader.net/93-136-8/naruto/chapter-131.html
http://www.mangareader.net/93-136-9/naruto/chapter-131.html

UNLIKE Obito, Gaara had to have it be made it clear to him, that his dead mother and the only person to have ever cared for him hated him from the very beginning, even as he lay dying, Yashamaru knew he had to throw a LOT of salt in the wound in order to complete his mission. JUST his death at the hands of Gaara wouldn't be enough. The COMPLETELY untrained kid that has NEVER seen war and has NO real family left (unlike a certain other person), was far to stable for that.

http://www.mangareader.net/93-136-12/naruto/chapter-131.html

And even after all that, he's STILL more lucid and coherent then Obito.

He's no considering this world HELL, that for sure.

It's the same with Sasuke. JUST seeing his beloved brother standing over the corpses of his mother and father and attack him and Itachi telling him he butchered everyone wouldn't enough to destroy him. Sasuke had to watch it over and over for 36 hours straight and was still ten times the man Obito was after seeing Rin die. Itachi had to come BACK, put him through ANOTHER 36 hours lest he just got over it and tried to get new friends (and Sasuke was more of loner then obito ever was, you know that quite well). And even then he wasn't turning into Bleach's Allon, he never considered himself in Hell.

I'm sorry, you have to about 4 years old to be on same emotional level and unpreparedness as Obito was.

And I'm sorry, his story did not justify that for me. He seemed to me one of the normal ones.

It's REALLY interesting that Hashirama's tissue didn't do anything for Madara until he was almost dead, and THAT'S what caused him to develop the Rinnegan. It's interesting that he summoned the husk of the ACTUAL Jubi though. I'd noticed the similarities, but it's impressive that this is the genuine article, and not just a clone, like the Zetsu. I think that the fact that it was a catalyst for the Lotus is somehow important to an inner trait that it possesses, though I'm not sure what.

Yeah, I always thought the Gedo Mezo was an imitation that Madara and Zetsu created.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

@Minato Arisato: Sasuke's situation is actually worse then that. Going by what Itachi said about Amaterasu, whatever Itachi shows people only takes a second long inside Amaterasu regardless of what's happening. So Sasuke really saw Itachi murder his clan 60 seconds x 60 minutes x 24 hours x 3 days times or 25,900 times... Yeah, and he was seven at the time. And then he goes through all of that again when he's twelve... And somehow, the only thing he wants to do after all that is kill Itachi. And when he finds out what actually happened, he just wants to kill all of Konoha. Only now even that's debatable. How is this guy as sane as he is?

Compare that to Obito who sees one friend kill another friend once and now wants to remake the world. And he never bothered to figure out why Kakash did that (at this point anyway).

More one the chapter later...

 

[X-SOLDIER]

The Uchiha are not crazy. You can't dismiss Obito behaviour with that. These are the Uchiha that threw Madara out to serve Hashirama loyally. They didn't have a problem until they got the blame for the Kyuubi attack. Also, the Sharingan is a RARE gift among Uchiha, they are not the Hyuuga, FAR from all of them get it. And he's unpopular, he's far from presented as an isolated loner.

You misread what I wrote. I said that they're "crazy elitist" AKA "extremely elitist" and because of that overall attitude, Obito probably spent a lot of time helping old ladies and training on his own to attempt to gain attention. Hell, Sasuke's a GENIUS of the Uchiha clan, but was still overshadowed by Itachi's superiority in a lot of ways. Point being, aside from the old lady he's helping, seeing Rin, and eventually coming closer to Kakashi, there isn't anything to show that he's close to any other people. He's not directly ostracized or orphaned, but he's definitely a bit of a loner.

No, it's exactly as you said. He lost control of the Shukaku, he fell asleep, then people started dying. Obito is actively consciously doing the utterly horrific things he's doing in the past issue.

First of all, no. Gaara pretty much put him at death's door himself. The dialogue made it pretty clear neither of them expected him to survive.

We learn from Bee & Naruto, that the Biju gain control over their Jinchuriki by latching on to their hatred, and using it to take over their hosts body, so essentially, even though it's an entity with its own consciousness, it's also an extension of Gaara's rage/hatred/etc. Shukaku's a bit of a special case, because he's apparently strong enough to take over if the Jinchuriki falls asleep. (I would assume that this also has to do with the relationship between the host and the Biju, but this isn't ever clarified in the context of the more unified relationship with the 9 Biju).

Regardless, if you shot your friend through the lung because he attempted to assassinate you, and then he proceeded to pull grenades out of his pockets and blow himself up in an attempt to kill you, you wouldn't say that YOU killed him. He clearly killed himself.

Just with that, the 8-year year old who just lost the only person to have ever cared about it has already proven itself FAAAAAAR more emotionally stable then Mr. "I WILL DFEFINITELY NEVER ACCEPT THIS OOOOOOOOOH! OOOOOOOOH! OOOOOOOOH! I AM IN HELL!!"

UNLIKE Obito, Gaara had to have it be made it clear to him, that his dead mother and the only person to have ever cared for him hated him from the very beginning, even as he lay dying, Yashamaru knew he had to throw a LOT of salt in the wound in order to complete his mission. JUST his death at the hands of Gaara wouldn't be enough. The COMPLETELY untrained kid that has NEVER seen war and has NO real family left (unlike a certain other person), was far to stable for that.

And even after all that, he's STILL more lucid and coherent then Obito.

He's no considering this world HELL, that for sure.

Well, Yashamaru WAS specifically tasked with psychologically cornering Gaara about all of those things, it's not clear that less wouldn't have been enough to send Gaara over the edge (since he'd been randomly murdering people already), it's that the Kazekage was testing the highest limitation of what he thought that Gaara should be able to endure if they were gonna keep him.

Also, Gaara wasn't stable, AT ALL. Like... not even in the most distant sense of the world. He's randomly murdering people and he even tried to stab his own wrists as a kid, but he can't be injured. Gaara's psychological state is night and day different than Obito's, which makes comparing them really unfair. Gaara didn't consider his own world hell, because during that time the entire world ONLY existed for his sole experience, and he didn't care about anyone but himself - largely enforced as a result of the trauma. Gaara becomes the embodiment of his own suffering, but Obito is the exact opposite - he'd rather DIE than to have someone hurt his friends, which he proved in Kakashi Gaiden, but instead of dying, he's kept alive and has to watch his friends get killed. It's Obito's empathy that's causing him suffering, which makes it worth moving on to Sasuke.

It's the same with Sasuke. JUST seeing his beloved brother standing over the corpses of his mother and father and attack him and Itachi telling him he butchered everyone wouldn't enough to destroy him. Sasuke had to watch it over and over for 36 hours straight and was still ten times the man Obito was after seeing Rin die. Itachi had to come BACK, put him through ANOTHER 36 hours lest he just got over it and tried to get new friends (and Sasuke was more of loner then obito ever was, you know that quite well). And even then he wasn't turning into Bleach's Allon, he never considered himself in Hell.

I'm sorry, you have to about 4 years old to be on same emotional level and unpreparedness as Obito was.

And I'm sorry, his story did not justify that for me. He seemed to me one of the normal ones.

Sasuke seeing his clan get murdered was also the FIRST trauma he experienced, and had been reliving afterwards. As a single event, it's something that he doesn't forgive those responsible, but HE gains all of his power for the purpose of overcoming and KILLING his brother - something that he can continually strive to accomplish. Even when he fails and relives the trauma, it reinforces his desire to gain power to kill Itachi (and eventually becomes his accelerated drive to destroy Konoha).

Obito is different. While he didn't really have a bad life in Konoha, the people he's close to are really mostly Rin & to a lesser degree (stupid) Kakashi. On top of that, he's always trying to gain more power to SAVE people. When he fails to be strong enough, it's not something where the failure builds his resolve, because each time he fails, he loses more, and the scope of his hell grows from small personal embarrassment to total loss. Every time he gains the power to do better, it costs him, and it costs his friends:

He messes up his Katon jutsu and gets embarrassed, and trains harder. He gets defeated by Gai during the exams, he trains harder. Rin gets captured, so he makes himself stronger and awakens his Sharingan. Kakashi loses his eye, and he BARELY saves Kakashi, resulting in him getting crushed under boulders, and gives up his own eye to replace the one Kakashi lost. He thinks that he finally succeeded, and gets Kakashi to swear to protect Rin for him.

Instead of this, he wakes as up a captive of Madara, stitched back together, and barely able to move. He can't get to his friends, and he's trapped somewhere disabled (and also with someone who happens to be one of the most evil and manipulative people who's ever lived). He's basically living through near-isolation captivity (aside from the completely socailly awkward Zetsu), and dealing with severe physical trauma at the same time. it's hard to state how the months of this would impact his psyche, but it's a pretty big factor. As time goes on, he gets stronger, with the goal of escaping his imprisonment and rejoining Kakashi and Rin, since he finally did manage to save his friends, and just needs to get back to them.

It's this hope of finally managing to save his friends and escape that's driving him. Finally he gets news about them being in trouble, he really believes that he can save them now that he's so much stronger than he was. He manages to break out of his prison, and rushes to save them. Instead of being able to help, he's confronted with the EXACT scenario that he (nearly) died trying to prevent - Kakashi is murdering Rin.


and was sure wasn't going to happen. Literally everything that he'd planned to prevent is ripped away from him the second he arrives.

THAT'S his hell. Obito's always getting stronger, but it never being enough. His despair isn't just primarily from having something taken from him, it's from his own inability to STOP those things from happening to the others that he cares for. No matter what he does, he's continually powerless to stop it all from turning awful.


THAT'S why the allure of "A world of peace. A world of winners. A world of love." that Madara offers him is so enticing. Madara basically leverages Obito's emotions to get him to give up on reality, and to ignore the suffering he's feeling, because he's going to fix the world by creating a new one. Madara's offering him the type of power that he's always been yearning for - the power to stop other people's suffering, and to bring back the things he lost.

In the end, Madara's getting exactly what he wants, and is potentially offering Obito something in return - though I'm sure that he's still manipulating things a bit beyond all that.





Also, I felt that it was worth mentioning that when Obito gets attacked by the Mist ANBU squad, they're still an enemy unit, because they're countries at war. His new abilities allows him to rip them all to pieces, but really this isn't anything more than he awakening of his new powers within a setting of war. It's not an over-reaction to Rin's death any more than any other setting of any war film with a friend killed behind enemy lines, and the survivor trapped and surrounded by enemy troops.


X

 

[Roger]

You misread what I wrote. I said that they're "crazy elitist" AKA "extremely elitist" and because of that overall attitude, Obito probably spent a lot of time helping old ladies and training on his own to attempt to gain attention. Hell, Sasuke's a GENIUS of the Uchiha clan, but was still overshadowed by Itachi's superiority in a lot of ways. Point being, aside from the old lady he's helping, seeing Rin, and eventually coming closer to Kakashi, there isn't anything to show that he's close to any other people. He's not directly ostracized or orphaned, but he's definitely a bit of a loner.

Yeah, everyone in the Uchiha, the Leaf Village and the ninja world as a whole is overshadowed by Itachi's superiority. This is not something indicative of ALL Uchiha relationships. It didn't stop Sasuke from having a loving relationship with his mother or his aunt and uncle, anymore then his lack of the rare gift of Sharingan should for Obito.

We learn from Bee & Naruto, that the Biju gain control over their Jinchuriki by latching on to their hatred, and using it to take over their hosts body, so essentially, even though it's an entity with its own consciousness, it's also an extension of Gaara's rage/hatred/etc. Shukaku's a bit of a special case, because he's apparently strong enough to take over if the Jinchuriki falls asleep. (I would assume that this also has to do with the relationship between the host and the Biju, but this isn't ever clarified in the context of the more unified relationship with the 9 Biju).

We know that Gaara automatically goes to asleep when Shukaku takes over. He wasn't particularly sleepy at the Chuunin Exams but when Shukaku took full control, night-night for Gaara and Shukaku can then be supressed again merely by waking Gaara up, even though Gaara hated Naruto very much in that moment.

So yeah, Gaara's anger brought him out but he was very much asleep for the duration of the attack.

Regardless, if you shot your friend through the lung because he attempted to assassinate you, and then he proceeded to pull grenades out of his pockets and blow himself up in an attempt to kill you, you wouldn't say that YOU killed him. He clearly killed himself.

No, I wouldn't. Seriously. Maybe if it had a chance of killing you, you might feel blame relieved but I doubt Gaara who has never been hurt and being not much closer to that here gave a damn about that.

Well, Yashamaru WAS specifically tasked with psychologically cornering Gaara about all of those things, it's not clear that less wouldn't have been enough to send Gaara over the edge (since he'd been randomly murdering people already), it's that the Kazekage was testing the highest limitation of what he thought that Gaara should be able to endure if they were gonna keep him.

We DO, we SEE him at least try to hold it together after he basically killed Yashamaru, we see him try to rationalise it. Even put on a brave smile. I don't see how you can trivialise that.

Also, Gaara wasn't stable, AT ALL. Like... not even in the most distant sense of the world. He's randomly murdering people and he even tried to stab his own wrists as a kid, but he can't be injured.

Yeah I know that. Which is exactly why I find it so unreasonable that his reaction to worst loss he could possibly face and then some at that age is so much endlessly more mild then Obito's completely blowing up mentally.

Gaara's psychological state is night and day different than Obito's, which makes comparing them really unfair. Gaara didn't consider his own world hell, because during that time the entire world ONLY existed for his sole experience, and he didn't care about anyone but himself - largely enforced as a result of the trauma.

He cared about Yashamaru, he cared about his mothers memory. It's exactly why the Kazekage had them targetted.

Gaara becomes the embodiment of his own suffering, but Obito is the exact opposite - he'd rather DIE than to have someone hurt his friends, which he proved in Kakashi Gaiden,

You're being extremely unfair to Gaara here. It's not like he COULD sacrifice himself for anything if he wanted. He can't be hurt. Not by anyone, not by him. It's hardly a concious decision on his part.

Sasuke seeing his clan get murdered was also the FIRST trauma he experienced, and had been reliving afterwards. As a single event, it's something that he doesn't forgive those responsible, but HE gains all of his power for the purpose of overcoming and KILLING his brother - something that he can continually strive to accomplish. Even when he fails and relives the trauma, it reinforces his desire to gain power to kill Itachi (and eventually becomes his accelerated drive to destroy Konoha).

You're straight up dismissing all of part 1 here. Unlike Obito, Sasuke was adjusting. He could fight and pursue strength for the sake of protecting his friends. He valiantly proclaimed as much when fighting Gaara. Beating Naruto was important motivation for him too. it's exactly why Itachi had to come back. Like I said, what itachi did to him at the age of 7 wasn't enough to trap him in that motivation forever.

Obito is different. While he didn't really have a bad life in Konoha, the people he's close to are really mostly Rin & to a lesser degree (stupid) Kakashi.

And his sensei Minato and (I'm just thinking out loud here) maybe his parents?

On top of that, he's always trying to gain more power to SAVE people. When he fails to be strong enough, it's not something where the failure builds his resolve, because each time he fails, he loses more, and the scope of his hell grows from small personal embarrassment to total loss. Every time he gains the power to do better, it costs him, and it costs his friends:

I could argue the same of many Konoha ninja that nevertheless build resolve upon defeat.

He messes up his Katon jutsu and gets embarrassed, and trains harder. He gets defeated by Gai during the exams, he trains harder. Rin gets captured, so he makes himself stronger and awakens his Sharingan. Kakashi loses his eye, and he BARELY saves Kakashi, resulting in him getting crushed under boulders, and gives up his own eye to replace the one Kakashi lost. He thinks that he finally succeeded, and gets Kakashi to swear to protect Rin for him.

Not initially succeeding in his Katon jutsu and failure in defeating Guy really isn't an instance of failure to SAVE someone. At Kakashi Gaiden he thougth he saved the day, no need to tack a finally onto it.

Instead of this, he wakes as up a captive of Madara, stitched back together, and barely able to move. He can't get to his friends, and he's trapped somewhere disabled (and also with someone who happens to be one of the most evil and manipulative people who's ever lived)

I gotta disagree with you there. As we know, Madara completely failed to win the Uchiha to his side at Konoha, he was abandoned to the man and cast out after which he left alone, he created the white Zetsu and the Black Zetsu that we see stubbornly having to educate his dumb ass even after all these years is an extention of his own will rather then someone he won to his ideology. He never actually neccesarily spoke with Nagato. If he was already manipulating the Mist he was doing it through Genjutsu as was suggested at the Kage Summit, and that's a question mark too at this point. I mean, Obito wasn't exactly the cream of the crop when Madara found him. He wasn't overflowing in followers.

Obito was the one that approached Nagato, Danzo, Kisame, Itachi and Sasuke and convinced them to work with him. He's the one that went from one guy in a cave to organisation of wanted Ninjas. Madara's evil yes. But his being a manipulator on par with the likes of Itachi, Danzo, Orochimaru and Obito isn't really established. He's more like Sasuke, he'll only lead by example and display of power and is a little too arrogant to win people hearts any other way (other then natural good looks).

THAT'S his hell. Obito's always getting stronger, but it never being enough. His despair isn't just primarily from having something taken from him, it's from his own inability to STOP those things from happening to the others that he cares for. No matter what he does, he's continually powerless to stop it all from turning awful.

Others? All? We have NOT been shown a flashback filled with Obito continuesly losing people he wanted to protect. Rin was the one and only thing that was required, no plural needed. So Kakashi lost his eye in the war they had been fighting for many years now, boho. Seriously I can at least assume Obito had seen something worse then THAT before Kakashi Gaiden don't I?

If Kishimoto wants to convince me there was a ramp-up prior to Rin's death, then give me something more then Gai kicking his ass in a moderated one-on-one tournament match. I don't feel great sympathy for his continual failure to protect those he loves there.

Madara's offering him the type of power that he's always been yearning for - the power to stop other people's suffering, and to bring back the things he lost.

Again. We see him fail to achieve being Chuunin, fail to score a date with that cute 12-year old teammate of his and walking people to the other side of the street. We do NOT see Obito suffering because of other peoples suffering and praying for a way to save his people. We see him risk his life for teammates on the line, showing himself more examplary of Konoha ninja then Kakashi and thereby inspire him. But he's really not that messianic figure in these flashbacks as you are building him up to be.

Also, I felt that it was worth mentioning that when Obito gets attacked by the Mist ANBU squad, they're still an enemy unit, because they're countries at war. His new abilities allows him to rip them all to pieces, but really this isn't anything more than he awakening of his new powers within a setting of war. It's not an over-reaction to Rin's death any more than any other setting of any war film with a friend killed behind enemy lines, and the survivor trapped and surrounded by enemy troops.

We must not have read the same chapter. That was WAAAAAAAY beyond what was even remotely neccesary to defeat the enemy.
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/605/8
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/605/14
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/605/15
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/605/16

Especially page 14. The mist ninja are looking on in horror as he still at least punching the guy after he's already impaled and probably dead. He lost it.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

So, I want to start with a quick note on your final point about Obito slaughtering everyone being 'unnecessary'.

We must not have read the same chapter. That was WAAAAAAAY beyond what was even remotely necessary to defeat the enemy. Especially page 14. The mist ninja are looking on in horror as he still at least punching the guy after he's already impaled and probably dead. He lost it.

Ok, for starters, it's the Blood Mist village, and they're all Jounin/ANBU class shinobi. These are people who had to murder their friends multiple times to get to this rank IN ADDITION to being top tier ninja. On top of that, their current mission involves not even letting Obito get close to or take her body. If you think that ANYTHING other than deadly force is a way to deal with a group of shinobi like that I'd like to know what makes more sense. Also, I'm curious why you think that they're looking on in horror, as they're all masked and we can't see their facial expressions, aside from the ONE whose mask is broken when he dies. These are trained killers, so I doubt that this is something they're bothered by - surprised, but not terrified. As far as I can tell, they're just silently holding the perimeter around Rin.

I'd also say that proof of that is the fact that it's daytime when he starts fighting them, and he doesn't finish killing them all until the moon's fully risen. Now, we can tell the fact that they're all dead in a centralized location around Rin, they haven't fled, and he's clearly not going out of his way to hunt them down - they ALL died still trying to prevent him from getting to Rin. This includes when he had any number of them impaled and skewered on trees - the others didn't run, and they kept fighting him by Rin's body.

On top of that, Obito's using Mokuton Ninjutsu for the first time ever in combat, and he's got branches growing out of his body, so he's clearly not able to control it perfectly, but it's his only really effective offensive tactic. It may be brutal as hell, but that's not really an issue here. PLUS, he's using his newly awakened Mangekyo, and there's no telling how long that'll last for him, and if one of these shinobi COULD hit him, he'd be dead in SECONDS, since all of them would have struck serious blows if he hadn't been suddenly intangible when their swords stuck through him. I don't think that he ran out there believing that he would actually WIN (and if Kakashi hadn't just awakened their Mangekyo, he wouldn't have), but he was sure as hell gonna try to reach Rin, no matter what.





Ok, so apologies for not responding inline to the rest of your post, but I'm gonna drop all the Sasuke/Gaara past discussion, because they're imperfect analogies with different motivations that are causing the REAL discussion about the emotional impact of Obito's situation to get hopelessly tied up in tangential semantics. Instead, I'm going to present a hypothetical situation that's analogous to what Obito went through, by using some of the main characters that we're more familiar with.

So, first we have use find a character that will mirror Obito's for these key points:
&#8226; Kind of a loner, but not necessarily looked down on.
&#8226; Talented, but never enough to accomplish their goals.
&#8226; Continually crushing on someone who doesn't really know.

Then we have take to another character who fill the role of Rin:
&#8226; The crush who's crushing on someone else.

And a final person to fill the role of Kakashi:
&#8226; The semi-love triangle other partner who doesn't reciprocate the feelings of the crush, and is neutrally friendly towards our Obito character.


Oh, perfect.

So, I'm going to re-play Obito's situation in this hypothetical scenario using Hinata as Obito, Naruto as Rin, and Sakura as Kakashi as the hypothetical members of a 3-man cell.





HINATA GAIDEN: BEGIN

So, given their general relationship, we'll run through a quick bullet list of things as if we're seeing an overview of some small key points of her life (like we saw with Obito in the recent chapters).

&#8226; Hinata is bested by her younger sister to be the House successor.
&#8226; Naruto's always mooning over Sakura.
&#8226; Hinata fails to defeat Neji during the Chunin Exams.
&#8226; Naruto leaves for training before she could tell him about her feelings.

Given that we only see a loose set of similar setup to Obito's experiences, assuming that these are key points in Hinata's life is fair. Is there more to her than this - yes, but it's not relevant to the PART of the story currently being told. We sacrifice some details for telling a flashback story efficiently, and focusing on the driving factors. From here, we'll fast forward to the Pain's Assault on Konoha. (I'm gonna modify the events to mimic the War scenario in Kakashi Gaiden and the flashback from here on out, so the powers & cabalities of the people involved is obviously going to be skewed).

So, Pain is attacking Konoha and Naruto gets captured and taken. Both Hinata & Sakura go to free Naruto. They succeed, but in the process, Pain collapses a huge amount of debris at them. Hinata manages to knock them away from the attack, but this means that she gets hit, and it crushes most of her body. Naruto is lapsing in and out of consciousness, so Hinata wasn't able to share her true feelings with Naruto. Instead, before she dies, she makes Sakura swear to keep him safe, because Sakura knows how much she cares for him. Other enemy reinforcements close in and collapse the rocks, but Naruto & Sakura escape alive.

Hinata awakens surprised, and finds herself trapped in an underground lair with Nagato, who's replaced her crushed eye with one of his Rinnegan, and is using his In'Youton Ninjutsu to slowly heal her. He refuses to allow her to leave, and keeps her trapped there for months. During this time she trains relentlessly, hoping to escape and thinks constantly about the two of them, but mostly of Naruto. She eventually trains her Byakugan abilities enough that she's able to detect Naruto & Sakura's chakra at a great distance, and realizes that they're in trouble. She uses a portion of uses her new Rinnegan power to rip down the barrier preventing her from leaving, but before she goes Nagato says, "You will return here, because you'll find nothing but more suffering out there."

She sprints across the distance to reach her friends, and finds Sakura & Naruto surrounded by a highly elite group of some of the most ruthless Mist shinobi. Just before she gets close enough to help them or for them to be able to see her, she watches Sakura drive her fist through Naruto's chest and murder him, before passing out from fatigue.

...

So, at this point, I don't think it's really unfair to think that Hinata would scream uncontrollably, and run to try and reach Naruto's body. If the Mist shinobi tried relentlessly to stop and kill her, and she had just suddenly awakened the abilities of the paths of pain, I don't think that she'd stop until they were all dead, and she was alone at Naruto's side. Once it's all over, and she's kneeling by Naruto's corpse, I would almost guarantee you that she would consider her life to be a living hell.

Now, PAST this point, if she thought that Nagato really had a way to end that suffering, and bring back Naruto in a world that was free from that pain, I think that she'd go back to him, rather than return to the village - because they all believe that she's still dead, and Nagato is offering hope for obtaining the thing that she wants most. Similarly, she probably wouldn't kill Sakura, but she wouldn't want to save her either, because that bond of trust that they had was broken when she murdered Naruto.

HINATA GAIDEN: END





Now, I realize that everything that I wrote up there is a fictional scenario, but hopefully it makes my point about Obito's character type, and why he's reacting the way that he did, by presenting a scenario with characters that we have more time and development with who share a very similar relationship. Sure there are probably other things in Obito's life, like his family, but we're lensing the flashback events through his own mind, and we're seeing it how HE views what's important to him.

Really, I'm not sure that I have much to say about what's been happening with Obito's character in flashbacks over the last several chapters, other than I clearly think that he's totally justified in what he's attempting to accomplish for the reasons he's attempting to accomplish them. He's a flawed character, and the information that we've been presented with is more cliff notes than a full blown story, but that's because it's all flashback, and there's a lot to tell.

Hopefully that all makes sense, and if you still don't buy that Obito's story is properly justified, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.



X

 

[Roger]

If you think that ANYTHING other than deadly force is a way to deal with a group of shinobi like that I'd like to know what makes more sense.

There's a difference between deadly force and the wanton destruction that obito was doing.

Also, I'm curious why you think that they're looking on in horror, as they're all masked and we can't see their facial expressions, aside from the ONE whose mask is broken when he dies. These are trained killers, so I doubt that this is something they're bothered by - surprised, but not terrified. As far as I can tell, they're just silently holding the perimeter around Rin.

They're given speechbubbles to mark their reaction.

On top of that, Obito's using Mokuton Ninjutsu for the first time ever in combat, and he's got branches growing out of his body, so he's clearly not able to control it perfectly, but it's his only really effective offensive tactic. It may be brutal as hell, but that's not really an issue here. PLUS, he's using his newly awakened Mangekyo, and there's no telling how long that'll last for him, and if one of these shinobi COULD hit him, he'd be dead in SECONDS, since all of them would have struck serious blows if he hadn't been suddenly intangible when their swords stuck through him.

We've seen mokuton having considerable defensive properties and Obito wasn't completely encased for no good reason. And Zetsu's commending him off his control tells me the Mokuton was largely doing what he wanted.

Ok, so apologies for not responding inline to the rest of your post, but I'm gonna drop all the Sasuke/Gaara past discussion, because they're imperfect analogies with different motivations that are causing the REAL discussion about the emotional impact of Obito's situation to get hopelessly tied up in tangential semantics. Instead, I'm going to present a hypothetical situation that's analogous to what Obito went through, by using some of the main characters that we're more familiar with.

I know they are imperfect analogies. These are two people that have much more basis to be more fragile then Obito, much more reason to be effected by their experience then Obito, but weren't. Not even remotely. That was my point.

So, I'm going to re-play Obito's situation in this hypothetical scenario using Hinata as Obito, Naruto as Rin, and Sakura as Kakashi as the hypothetical members of a 3-man cell.

I don't think Hinata had a comparative experience to what happened to obito at that age. If she did, I would've brought it into the discussion.

HINATA GAIDEN: BEGIN

So, given their general relationship, we'll run through a quick bullet list of things as if we're seeing an overview of some small key points of her life (like we saw with Obito in the recent chapters).

&#8226; Hinata is bested by her younger sister to be the House successor.
&#8226; Naruto's always mooning over Sakura.
&#8226; Hinata fails to defeat Neji during the Chunin Exams.
&#8226; Naruto leaves for training before she could tell him about her feelings.

Kay

So, at this point, I don't think it's really unfair to think that Hinata would scream uncontrollably, and run to try and reach Naruto's body. If the Mist shinobi tried relentlessly to stop and kill her, and she had just suddenly awakened the abilities of the paths of pain, I don't think that she'd stop until they were all dead, and she was alone at Naruto's side. Once it's all over, and she's kneeling by Naruto's corpse, I would almost guarantee you that she would consider her life to be a living hell.

Let me stop you right there. You don't mention Hinata stating right off the bat "I WILL DEFINITELY NEVER ACCEPT THIS!!!!", I also don't see her focusing on reducing one particular Mist ninja to little more then a pool of blood as we get multiple shots of the Mist ninjas looking on to convey the passage of time as she works his corpse down.

Now, PAST this point, if she thought that Nagato really had a way to end that suffering, and bring back Naruto in a world that was free from that pain, I think that she'd go back to him, rather than return to the village - because they all believe that she's still dead, and Nagato is offering hope for obtaining the thing that she wants most. Similarly, she probably wouldn't kill Sakura, but she wouldn't want to save her either, because that bond of trust that they had was broken when she murdered Naruto.

Now, I've never stated to have a problem with Obito's decisions after he left the battlefield. My problem is with his immeadiate utterly crazed reaction to what happened as opposed to absolutely any given other character in this story's greater capacity to take the information in just a tad more coherently. I just think this is Kishimoto's style and standards having greatly changed since the last time something like this happened without a real in-story explanation.

But since you are getting into I'll be clear about this: Obito is not resurrecting THIS Rin back to life, he's creating a dream in which Rin is alive for all living people including him to live in. He's very clear about that.

ALSO. She might not be interested in saving Sakura. She might not bear going back to the Leaf Village. I don't however think she'd mock, fight and kill Kurenai, Asuma and their baby and attempt to destroy the entire Leaf Village right there and then a year later without the slightest hint of regret or hesitation either.

I'd also just like to say that Hinata's level of isolation much, much, much better established then Obito's was and was much more obviously a cornerstone of what made her character tick from the onset. I think most people that read Kakashi Gaiden would have seen him as a Naruto analogue.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/607

Thoughts:

Well, Nagato's point of view makes a lot more sense now. It's nice to know that Yahiko at least knew Obito's idea was wrong.

Obito knew Minato was having a kid? That's really messed up.

It's interesting to see the differences between why Naruto wants to be Hokage and why Obito wants to be Hokage. It's a small difference that has grown into something huge.

Obito has crossed a line no one in the manga has crossed. Even guys like Orochimaru, Kabuto and Madara cared. At this point, I don't even know if Naruto can relate to him at all.

Kishimoto once again uses a cliche in such a way it isn't a cliche at all. Where exactly did he get the idea of a wood dragon?

Darn it! Naruto is on break next week!

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I thought that the interaction between him & Nagato was really interesting. The only thing that makes me a little sad is that we didn't find out about his role in the Uchiha massacre (yet), but it made for an AMAZING transition back into combat with the Kyubi attack on Konoha.

Also, Obito had to have known about Minato's kid, since that's how he managed to show up in time to kidnap Naruto. I thought that him summoning Kyubi on Rin's grave was probably the most emotionally powerful part, showing that he really doesn't care at all anymore. He's easily the most far gone of any of the villains in a really interesting way. I can't wait to see how the combat goes down with Kakashi.

Back in the present: FUCKING WOOD DRAGON VS. KURAMA CHAKRA NARUTO!!!!!

Sorry, it's just fucking awesome.


Also, did anyone else notice that Gai look like he got the everliving SHIT kicked out of him in the panel we saw? Holy hell. This combat is gearing up to easily be the best conflict in terms of just raw scale, as well as emotional content that we've ever seen. I really can't imagine where it's gonna go from here, but it's gonna get IN. TENSE.


I'll be missing it a lot next week, but I'm hoping that the break gives Kishimoto some time to make some seriously awesome art for the week after next.



X