New Novel, FINAL FANTASY VII Lateral Biography TURKS: The Kids Are Alright [SPOILER THREAD]

[ForceStealer]

But then why wouldn't he have created more in the first place? If it really cost him nothing why wouldn't have just made an army?

 

[Wolfmania]

But then why wouldn't he have created more in the first place? If it really cost him nothing why wouldn't have just made an army?

He kinda did make a small army. Shadow Creepers and all. But I don't think his will is unlimite, else Cloud wouldn't have overcome It near the end.

But the issue is that the second Kadaj would be weaker than the first. That dosen't sound very reasonable to me. If he did divide the first Kadaj into one Kadaj and Loz/Yazoo, why is movie Kadaj visibly stronger than Loz/Yazoo? One would think sephy would split his energy equally if that was the case.

It seems to me he simply recycled the first Kadaj back into shape, and used the remainder of his will(or just more spare energy) into forming his bro's. That's why movie Kadaj is so above his bro's, or how I'd explain that.

It's strange actually. Movie Kadaj did things novel didn't and vice-versa. I don't see any reason to believe they're anything but equal to each other(since they're basically the same thing, only in a different place after a dissolution), It's just another of SE's quirky representation moments. Or It's not even that at all. Just Novel Kadaj had more chances to shine.

 

[Masamune]

It's just another of SE's quirky representation moments making shit up on the fly.

Fixxed.

 

[Octo]

You know, I think it says something about the standard of storytelling when they have to retcon and twist about so many plot details. I mean we're not even just talking about the OG here (which would be kind of forgivable as it was so long ago) We're talking about stuff that was made 7 years ago or less, and they keep changing stuff. I just think it shows how they don't really have a clue what the fuck they're doing half the time, and that each new entry in the compilation is about cashing in rather than enhancing the story. :/

 

[Shademp]

It makes me wonder what is going on in Kazushige Nojima's head. He made and released this book with almost no advertising at all. The story doesn't seem to hold any relevance as to the future of the Compilation (I might still be wrong about that, of course, but from what we've heard so far I can't see the significance) and he is adding story elements to the pre-AC timeline which we do not need.
Is it really so that this guy, one of the main writers of the original game, simply wanted to gain some extra cash? Does he not care at all about honoring the legacy of the original title?

One thing can be said for certain. He doesn't understand what the fans want. He can't place himself in the shoes of those who played the OG back in the day. What a tragedy.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Actually, Shad, I think Nojima is the closest to a friend the fans have among the original creators. Obviously FFVII is still very near and dear to his heart if he still wants to write about it even while his colleagues have moved on to their Fabula Nova Shytalis and never-ending stream of Kingdom Hearts titles.

I think he wanted to write more about it without doing anything that would contradict anything else that was already in place, and show the rest of them that fans still want more FFVII.

 

[Shademp]

@ Tres

He is indeed the one most interested in continuing FFVII, closely followed by Nomura who has said that he wants to continue Cloud's story. Unfortunately, even if they have good intentions, I don't have confidence in their work.

Nojima has now made the retcon to keep Corneo alive. Admittedly, I do not know whether an Ultimania has ever stated that he actually died from that fall. The game does not explicitly say that he died and in order for a squashy-death to be feasible, we have to (possibly) assume greater differences in scale between this shot and the field for his "death" than what one initially picture when comparing the two.

However even if his death was never stated, I am willing to bet that 99.99999% of players assumed that he died. Now it feels like the Wutai sidequest accomplished less. There was a satisfaction from knowing that the vermin was gone from the planet, much like the satisfaction from offing Heidegger & Scarlet and Hojo.

The introduction of a new Kadaj, although not contradictory to the Black & White Lifestream OTWTAS chapter, still makes Sephiroth's narrative seem oddly incomplete in retrospect. His fragmented spirit mind aside, I will still retain this view.

Nojima may not have written a title that directly contradicts anything in the previous canon (again, I would like to know if any Ultimania ever stated if Don Corneo died), but he surely wrote something that feels out of place.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm not sure if Corneo was ever stated to have died in an Ultimania (the UO said Reno and Rude's teamwork "buried" him: 葬り去った; and I think the U20 Scenario said the same thing), but -- as retcons go -- it's not any more egregious than Rufus and Tseng surviving. Granted, it's a little annoying that this guy was brought back when Palmer would have filled the role just as well and he actually needed to be followed-up with ... but Corneo's not nearly the only one to have survived a long fall in the original game.

Tseng's unsuccessful brush with death is actually more surprising to me than this.

It's not a retcon in the same sense as what keeps happening to the Mt. Nibel reactor scenario anyway. It's just one where additional information is added that reveals someone thought to be dead to actually be alive.

I can feel you on it seeming like the Wutai sidequest accomplished less, but it did leave Corneo a mostly broken dude in a wheelchair, so that's something. And I think that sidequest's significance was more in the alliance between the Turks and AVALANCHE.

Guess I can't help you with your comment about Sephiroth's narrative, though; for me, it makes it feel more complete.

 

[Pixel]

What role does Johnny play in this story? Sorry if this has been covered lol

 

[Vendel]

What role does Johnny play in this story?

Hopefully none.

 

[Roger]

Tseng's unsuccessful brush with death is actually more surprising to me than this.

Really? Why? Tseng was alive and at the entrance when we last saw him, and Elena knew where he was. Even Elena's mistranslated line was very ambigious, I never understood why people assumed he was dead

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Alive, but talking as though he were dying, and with Aerith expecting him to die. And we left him there, presumably to be crushed when the temple shrank.

Then the last thing we ever hear about him is Elena attacking us 'cause she thinks we did something to him. Even with the accurate translation from the PC version ("messin' up my boss" rather than "doin' my boss in"), we had no reason to think he was alive -- if he was, he'd presumably have told her, "No, that was Sephiroth, not Cloud."

I always saw his death as the most well confirmed in-game. Rufus had multiple NPCs speaking of him as dead, but his wiggle room seemed a lot bigger given the circumstances (an explosion from an attack that didn't hit him directly) and the chaos of the time (Heidegger was an usurper, and the random dude in Kalm wasn't going to know more than he was told).

Tseng's death had one of his subordinates unaware of who had actually attacked him, laying the blame on us, and we never see or hear of him again beyond the misdirected hostility concerning said attack. Dude seemed locked in for dead.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It was true, but I am glad they brought Tseng back to life. Rufus too.
Reviving Don Corneo was not remotely necessary and shows a lack of imagination on the author's part. Mafia dons die and their subordinates take over. I'd even have preferred a mini-me Corneo who was his son or nephew or something.

 

[Shademp]

It was true, but I am glad they brought Tseng back to life. Rufus too.
Reviving Don Corneo was not remotely necessary and shows a lack of imagination on the author's part. Mafia dons die and their subordinates take over. I'd even have preferred a mini-me Corneo who was his son or nephew or something.

Ah, I can totally picture in my head the new "Don". One of Corneo's lackeys who always felt neglected and pushed down by the fat bastard, now rises to power and starts taking control over parts of Edge. Then Cloud and/or the Turks meet him.
"Thank you for getting rid of that ol' elephant. If you ever need any favors just come to me. But if you screw me over... Well, let's just say that it is such a shame whenever kids fall on their faces or when those cute souls...disappear."

*end of bad fan-fiction*

Yeah, I'm not a writer by a long-shot.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yes, and that would be more realistic, because a Don is like the leader of a wolfpack - old and broken, he'd be killed by the up and coming alpha wolves who'd then fight it out amongst themselves until one emerged as the new leader. Power abhores a vacumn - no, it's nature abhores a vacumnn, but anyway... all the best post-Meteor fanfics I've read (even Case of Shinra) show various new gangs and shady organisations struggling for power in the wake of Shinra's fall, often trying to get their hands on those twin sources of Shinra's power, mako and Jenova cells, and Shinra and Avalanche forced into an awkward alliance in order (for their difference reasons) to stop the bad guys. I mean, Shinra are still kind of the bad guys, but these other gangs are worse guys.

A broken Don Corneo in a wheelchair is not Rufus in a wheelchair; Rufus in a wheelchair is still a threat, because of his brains and because of the Turks. And having a new, powerful Don willing and able to challenge both the Turks and Avalanche wouldn't get in the way of the plot, because the protagonist - Evan? - would still have to find a way around this threshold guardian in order to get to the photograph. And the photo would still have blackmail value. More, probably.

 

[Fangu]

Jesus, stop talking about Tseng being dead!!!!! It's making me really uncomfortable

Also, I had this though. (Wow!) This "coming back from the dead" all the time, is it a "normal" thing in Japanese literature/ games/ movies and whatnot? I haven't watched anime/ read manga for a long time, and most of that was sci-fi or about crazy dinosaurs anyway, so I don't have much reference.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Fangu, based on around 220 animes I have watched I say coming back from the dead is "normal" depending on the genre and popularity of the character. For example, Goten was made to be a replacement for Goku but fans demand Goku so he gets revived again. In other shonen like Shaman King this is played for laughs since all dead characters there appear again as spirits without a barrier to the physical world.

One of the animes that impressed me with great character deaths is Gundam Seed but the way Kira Yamato (A Gundam Sue that is popular in Japan) keeps on surviving ridiculously annoyed me very much. I have no verdict on Tseng since I haven't played FFVII, but I say it would be touching for him to be with Aerith and Zack in the lifestream. But I also wish that he'll be alive because he has to give those 88 letters to someone at least

 

[Wolfmania]

Fixxed.

Granted. They do that much more often than not.

It makes me wonder what is going on in Kazushige Nojima's head. He made and released this book with almost no advertising at all. The story doesn't seem to hold any relevance as to the future of the Compilation (I might still be wrong about that, of course, but from what we've heard so far I can't see the significance) and he is adding story elements to the pre-AC timeline which we do not need.
Is it really so that this guy, one of the main writers of the original game, simply wanted to gain some extra cash? Does he not care at all about honoring the legacy of the original title?

One thing can be said for certain. He doesn't understand what the fans want. He can't place himself in the shoes of those who played the OG back in the day. What a tragedy.

Very thought-provoking indeed.

 

[ForceStealer]

Yes, and that would be more realistic, because a Don is like the leader of a wolfpack - old and broken, he'd be killed by the up and coming alpha wolves who'd then fight it out amongst themselves until one emerged as the new leader. Power abhores a vacumn - no, it's nature abhores a vacumnn, but anyway... all the best post-Meteor fanfics I've read (even Case of Shinra) show various new gangs and shady organisations struggling for power in the wake of Shinra's fall, often trying to get their hands on those twin sources of Shinra's power, mako and Jenova cells, and Shinra and Avalanche forced into an awkward alliance in order (for their difference reasons) to stop the bad guys. I mean, Shinra are still kind of the bad guys, but these other gangs are worse guys.

A broken Don Corneo in a wheelchair is not Rufus in a wheelchair; Rufus in a wheelchair is still a threat, because of his brains and because of the Turks. And having a new, powerful Don willing and able to challenge both the Turks and Avalanche wouldn't get in the way of the plot, because the protagonist - Evan? - would still have to find a way around this threshold guardian in order to get to the photograph. And the photo would still have blackmail value. More, probably.

I'm not going to say this doesn't sound interesting, but I feel like you overrate Corneo's influence and power. I never got the impression he was running a mafia, he was always far too ridiculous for that.
I get that running the whole...women business and being easily the richest guy in the Wall Market and probably the slums would tend to afford someone some power. But I just can't help but feel that if his organization was that cutthroat, they wouldn't have had to wait for him to be in a wheelchair to kill him.

 

[Roger]

Alive, but talking as though he were dying, and with Aerith expecting him to die. And we left him there, presumably to be crushed when the temple shrank.

What do you mean talking as though he's dying? In what is that reflected? He trails off because he has trouble talking. And Aerith hardly talks she's fully written him off for good. She's sad because one of her closest friends is hurt. I don't understand why that just can't be enough for you.

And presumably crushed, as in, premused he hasn't moved ten more steps hours later, even though he's already walked through the entire dungeon soloing monsters all the way with that wound.

And he's shown the ability to just call in a helicopter in the past. Seriously, compared to Rufus his peril was miniscule.

Then the last thing we ever hear about him is Elena attacking us 'cause she thinks we did something to him. Even with the accurate translation from the PC version ("messin' up my boss" rather than "doin' my boss in"), we had no reason to think he was alive -- if he was, he'd presumably have told her, "No, that was Sephiroth, not Cloud."

Tseng's death had one of his subordinates unaware of who had actually attacked him, laying the blame on us, and we never see or hear of him again beyond the misdirected hostility concerning said attack. Dude seemed locked in for dead.

Laying the blame with us ONLY the next time we see her. She or the other Turks doesn't appear mad with us whatsoever afterwards. Like maybe he was unconcious for a few days. Out of everybody that supposedly died that could just be explained to have spent some time in hospital bed afterwards, he's BY FAAAR the easiest. And Cloud isn't least bit surprised he's alive either, unlike Rufus and Corneo.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

What do you mean talking as though he's dying? In what is that reflected?

He speaks of letting Aerith go being the start of his troubles, which indicates (to me anyway) that his troubles have come to a head.

He trails off because he has trouble talking.

Well, he was skewered.

And Aerith hardly talks she's fully written him off for good. She's sad because one of her closest friends is hurt. I don't understand why that just can't be enough for you.

She's sad enough to cry and express sadness that one of the few people in the world who know who her is critically injured, but isn't doing anything to save his life. That alone points to him being too far gone to save.

And presumably crushed, as in, premused he hasn't moved ten more steps hours later, even though he's already walked through the entire dungeon soloing monsters all the way with that wound.

If it seemed like he was dying where they left him, I wouldn't expect him to make it even five more feet, much less the additional five.

Laying the blame with us ONLY the next time we see her. She or the other Turks doesn't appear mad with us whatsoever afterwards.

How many times would it need to be brought up to convey that she blamed us? Reno only brings up Sector 7 once in Gongaga. And I think we only see Elena one additional time after Icicle Inn anyway.

If anything, the narrative purpose of her brief appearance there seemed to be to let us know that he had, indeed, been shuffled off this mortal coil.

Until AC came along, you really never thought he was dead?

Like maybe he was unconcious for a few days. Out of everybody that supposedly died that could just be explained to have spent some time in hospital bed afterwards, he's BY FAAAR the easiest.

I just don't see it. Rufus was in a room where an explosion happened. Not that big a deal. Corneo fell off a cliff -- shorter than the fall both Cloud and Dyne had taken earlier. Not that big a deal either.

Did I assume he was dead? Absolutely. But, then, I also assumed Rufus and Tseng were dead until AC came along to tell us otherwise.

And Cloud isn't least bit surprised he's alive either, unlike Rufus and Corneo.

In fairness, we don't see the moment in which Cloud learns that Corneo's alive. How do we know he was surprised?

We don't see even the moment he learns that Tseng is alive either, for that matter. The Turks had been active for quite some time prior to the events of AC. Shin-Ra built the monument in Edge, after all, and Reno at the very least has been known to hang about there during its construction.


Anyway, I'm not saying Tseng being alive is some travesty. I'm glad he is.

I'm just saying the uproar over Corneo's survival seems downright silly to me given that 1) Cloud and Dyne survived longer falls in the original game and 2) Tseng survived something far worse. As a narrative decision, sure, I take issue with Corneo being alive as well. Just not in the sense that it breaks my suspension of disbelief.

 

[Edley]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BackFromTheDead

Almost every FFVII character fits one of the tropes in that article. Corneo isn't the first nor will he be the last. As a narrative decision this doesn't bother me because it's a fucking video game.

 

[Lord Noctis]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BackFromTheDead

. As a narrative decision this doesn't bother me because it's a fucking video game.

Video games should have good writing and narrative decisions too.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Too bad I can only click the thanks button once.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Mostly agree with your post Tres, but I did wanna point out one thing.

I'm just saying the uproar over Corneo's survival seems downright silly to me given that 1) Cloud and Dyne survived longer falls in the original game and 2) Tseng survived something far worse. As a narrative decision, sure, I take issue with Corneo being alive as well. Just not in the sense that it breaks my suspension of disbelief.

I don't think what's bother folks is Corneo's survival being less believable than the others listed (though it sort of is since Corneo is far and away less badass than they are, which would be why he's crippled and wheelchair bound now). Its more a case of him being the plump, pervy straw that broke the camel's back. He's just one too many. People can take a lot of surprising "Oh, so he's NOT dead?" moments, but the Comp has heaped on quite a few now.