New year, New LTD thread. (Round 5)

[ForceStealer]

And again, he watched Marlene's real dad commit suicide for similar sins. That wouldn't make you uneasy? Making sure he doesn't fall into the same trap, while leaving her in the care of two of the most powerful human beings on the planet is a better path than Dyne's at least.
And despite the strength of her caretakers, when things got messy in Edge he was back pretty quickly. And at the end of the movie, she was immediately at his side holding his hand, while Cloud and Tifa's focus was squarely on Denzel.

Also, while there's nothing to suggest he's with her in CoD, nothing concretely says he isn't either...I'd rather wait for something to tell us for sure.

 

[looneymoon]

Except his concern is STILL always his daughter. He doesn't think he's good for his daughter, so he puts her with people he think will be better for it.
You don't like the sins angle, fine. But to suggest that he's not concerned for Marlene because of the sins angle is just absurd.

With that kind of behaviour then yeah, he probably isn't good for his daughter and it makes me lose all kind of respect I have for a previously very lovable character.

I really can't even with this bullshit characterization in the compilation sometimes.

 

[Tifabelle]

I don't understand why everything is mutually exclusive. Just because he isn't with Marlene 24/7 doesn't mean he doesn't care about her. Just because Cloud is a father figure doesn't mean that Barret stops being her father.

And so Barret leaves her in the care of two of his friends while he tries to fix himself SO THAT HE CAN BE A BETTER FATHER. In FFVII, he leaves her in the care of a stranger while he goes off to save the planet (to give Marlene a better future). I don't see much of a difference. And he mentions Marlene twice in the film, once in his message to Cloud and when he arrives in Edge...he does care about her. The whole reason he leaves is because he wants to be a better person FOR MARLENE. His number one concern is still Marlene.

 

[Zee]

>post song about a rainbow
>WHY ARE YOU HATING HATER

ha ha oh wow

With that kind of behaviour then yeah, he probably isn't good for his daughter and it makes me lose all kind of respect I have for a previously very lovable character.

I really can't even with this bullshit characterization in the compilation sometimes.

Sazh after FFXIII: I'M NEVER LEAVING MY SON AGAIN EVER
Barret after FFVII and his daughter was in the city as it nearly got crushed to death by a meteor: WELL BE GOOD HONEY I'LL BE BACK WHEN THE ANGELS WITH THE PENNANT

maybe he should become a bishounen and get involved in some stupid ass love triangle if he wants more screentime

Just because Cloud is a father figure doesn't mean that Barret stops being her father.

Except the whole point of Barret is that he already is her father figure trying to become a real father to her. Annnnnd there's nothing to suggest Marlene sees Cloud as a daddy type anyway. Staying at someone's house for a while doesn't mean jack. I was raised by my grandparents when I was younger before I went back to my folks, yet I don't see either of them as parental figures and I never did.

cloud has his own kid, he can gtfo really

 

[Tir McDohl]

>post song about a rainbow
>WHY ARE YOU HATING HATER

ha ha oh wow

It's not like anyone overreacted or jumped on you, you know. Seems like a trend to go "lol Ryu here you are again calm down before you hurt yourself LOL".

 

[Zee]

It's not like anyone overreacted or jumped on you, you know. Seems like a trend to go "lol Ryu here you are again calm down before you hurt yourself LOL".

suggesting i'm hatin' suggests a level of caring about this

that i



just don't have

+ anyone who has been around here long enough knows exactly why we take the piss from ryu

 

[Tir McDohl]

I think they said it as a joke tho, the "y u hatin'" thing.

+ anyone who has been around here long enough knows exactly why we take the piss from ryu

Okay den, is there a short explanation for peeps like me so I don't waste my time thinking people are more serious than they are? :S

 

[Ryushikaze]

>post song about a rainbow
>WHY ARE YOU HATING HATER

ha ha oh wow

Ah, Passive Agressive Zee. Not sure if I like this or Angry Ranty Zee better.

Sazh after FFXIII: I'M NEVER LEAVING MY SON AGAIN EVER
Barret after FFVII and his daughter was in the city as it nearly got crushed to death by a meteor: WELL BE GOOD HONEY I'LL BE BACK WHEN THE ANGELS WITH THE PENNANT [/quote]

How many innocent people has Sazh killed again? The two situations and the two fathers involved are not the same. Sazh has no need for penance of self improvement to be someone capable of raising his son. Barret, maybe he is, maybe he isn't. He doesn't feel he is.

Except the whole point of Barret is that he already is her father figure trying to become a real father to her. Annnnnd there's nothing to suggest Marlene sees Cloud as a daddy type anyway.

She doesn't have to see him as 'a daddy type' for Cloud to be acting in the role of a father figure. I'm still not sure why this is such a hard thing to grasp. And Barret may not be Marlene's biological father, but he's definitely already her real father by any non biological meaning of the word.

Staying at someone's house for a while doesn't mean jack. I was raised by my grandparents when I was younger before I went back to my folks, yet I don't see either of them as parental figures and I never did.

And here's the trick- that doesn't change anything about what I am talking about. In the particular family unit you were in, You and your grandparents, your real parents were not involved. They were not your guardians at that time. Your grandparents were. That's why they were parental figures during that time. They at no point replaced your real parents, but they served the same purpose. That's what this is about- guardianship. It actually doesn't matter what Marlene thinks of Cloud. She can see him as an elder brother or her silly uncle, but while he acts as her guardian, as long as she is part of his family unit and not Barret's immediate nuclear unit, he acts as her father figure.

cloud has his own kid, he can gtfo really

And to analogize this whole nonsense to another fictional family with the same layout, Hank Hill has Bobby. That does not make him any less of a father figure to Luanne, his niece.

It's not like anyone overreacted or jumped on you, you know. Seems like a trend to go "lol Ryu here you are again calm down before you hurt yourself LOL".

You'll find it happens when they run out of actual argument.

suggesting i'm hatin' suggests a level of caring about this

that i



just don't have

Your actions betray your words, Zee. For all your protestations... you're still fighting. And that means you care enough to 'be hatin.'

 

[Celes Chere]

Okay den, is there a short explanation

 

[Zee]

MASTERFUL GIF USE RIGHT THERE MAN

It actually doesn't matter what Marlene thinks of Cloud. She can see him as an elder brother or her silly uncle, but while he acts as her guardian, as long as she is part of his family unit and not Barret's immediate nuclear unit, he acts as her father figure.

i do not think you understand the way these things work

he's a long term babysitter, not her father figure. and being her guardian for a time doesn't mean she sees him as a father either.

lol this fixation on this idea of the ~perfect nuclear family. most families don't work like this.

Your actions betray your words, Zee. For all your protestations... you're still fighting. And that means you care enough to 'be hatin.'

i take this thread as seriously as cancer

 

[Dana Scully]

I think if you look at Cloud/Tifa/Marlene/Denzel as a whole, then yes, Cloud would be the 'father', if only symbolically.

But if you look at just Marlene and Cloud, I just can't see it as a father/daughter relationship. Cloud/Denzel father/son, absolutely, but Marlene's got Barret. That's not to say that Cloud isn't important to her, and vice versa, or that she doesn't see Cloud as not part of the 'family', but he's not a father to her.

 

[Ryushikaze]

i do not think you understand the way these things work

I think you are deliberately missing the point.

he's a long term babysitter, not her father figure. and being her guardian for a time doesn't mean she sees him as a father either.

She doesn't have to. He, as her caretaker, takes the role of a parental figure in her life, whether she seems him as one or not.

lol this fixation on this idea of the ~perfect nuclear family. most families don't work like this.

Who ever said this had to do with "perfect" anything? I'm talking local, in house familial dynamics. That's the 'immediate nuclear unit' I mentioned. The day to day workings of the 'family.'

Let's take the example of a group of entirely unrelated orphan children, seven or eight in number. Two of these orphans are significantly older than the other five and take it upon themselves to act as the guardians of the others. They have become the parental figures for the younger orphans. It does not matter if the other orphans see them as parents, siblings, or friends, these two orphans are directly responsible for the day to day care and long term development of the ones they have taken as their responsibility, making them the effective parental figures of the group.

Your operating definition, which requires Marlene to see Cloud as being 'fatherlike' is immaterial to the operating definition I am working under, having to do with undertaking the burden of raising the child.

If you act as a guardian to a child, you become a parental figure for that child. They may not view you as such, but you are acting as such. That's what I am concerned with. That is the standard by which Cloud and Tifa become parental figures towards the children, Denzel and Marlene both.

Likewise, I think if Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie aided in the raising of Marlene to a sufficient degree, THEY would be parental figures to her as well. It has nothing to do with 'perfect nuclear family' but it does have to do with the family nucleus. Barret is outside that Nucleus.

i take this thread as seriously as cancer

Hyperbole of point to attempt to evade the truth of it. Pretty standard fair.

I think if you look at Cloud/Tifa/Marlene/Denzel as a whole, then yes, Cloud would be the 'father', if only symbolically.

But if you look at just Marlene and Cloud, I just can't see it as a father/daughter relationship. Cloud/Denzel father/son, absolutely, but Marlene's got Barret. That's not to say that Cloud isn't important to her, and vice versa, or that she doesn't see Cloud as not part of the 'family', but he's not a father to her.

But my point is that it's not about Cloud being a father in Marlene's eyes- he'll never replace Barret on that front, definitely- but about Cloud acting like a father or parental figure towards Marlene. And a reason why I emphasize the immediate family unit, something which Barret has excused himself from and does not contribute to actively. He is outside the sphere of influence. It doesn't mean he doesn't care, or isn't Marlene's father, but it does mean he is not part of the immediate family dynamic, in the same way that I am not part of the immediate dynamic at my Parent's house, but my younger brother is.

 

[Tir McDohl]

Spoiler

LOL

*GIF*

Yeah, you're welcome.

 

[Zee]

Spoiler

LOL

*GIF*

Yeah, you're welcome.

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But if you look at just Marlene and Cloud, I just can't see it as a father/daughter relationship. Cloud/Denzel father/son, absolutely, but Marlene's got Barret. That's not to say that Cloud isn't important to her, and vice versa, or that she doesn't see Cloud as not part of the 'family', but he's not a father to her.

+1

 

[Dana Scully]

But my point is that it's not about Cloud being a father in Marlene's eyes- he'll never replace Barret on that front, definitely- but about Cloud acting like a father or parental figure towards Marlene. And a reason why I emphasize the immediate family unit, something which Barret has excused himself from and does not contribute to actively. He is outside the sphere of influence. It doesn't mean he doesn't care, or isn't Marlene's father, but it does mean he is not part of the immediate family dynamic, in the same way that I am not part of the immediate dynamic at my Parent's house, but my younger brother is.

I don't see how an absence of Barret means that Cloud automatically becomes the father figure. Sure, Cloud takes care of Marlene and pays the bills and shit - and in that way he fulfills a sort of parental role - but IMO there needs to be a certain emotional dynamic for it to qualify as a father/daughter relationship and I just don't see it between them.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I don't see how an absence of Barret means that Cloud automatically becomes the father figure. Sure, Cloud takes care of Marlene and pays the bills and shit - and in that way he fulfills a sort of parental role - but IMO there needs to be a certain emotional dynamic for it to qualify as a father/daughter relationship and I just don't see it between them.

But I never said there was a father/daughter relationship there. Just that he fills the parental figure role, that he's 'the dad' of the family unit as it stands under the 7th heaven, and Barret is not. That doesn't change the father/ daughter relationship between Barret and Marlene, but that relationship exists outside the 7th heaven family dynamic.

 

[Tir McDohl]

Spoiler

REACTIONIMAGE.JPG

Spoiler

Well, when I used to get dropped off at a friend or relative's house if my parents had to go somewhere, my mom or dad would tell me to be good or something along the lines of "behave to them like they were me". So that's what I think of when I call Cloud Marlene's father figure in Barret's absence. Not that they've all of a sudden got this extremely close relationship that replaces or even rivals Marlene's with Barret.

(I still don't get what the big, clear difference is between "like an uncle" and a father figure.)

 

[Zee]

I think the issue here is the definition of a "father figure". If you're calling someone a father figure, the implication is that the relationship is more than just guardianship.

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[Tir McDohl]

I think the issue here the the definition of a "father figure". If you're calling someone a father figure, the implication is that the relationship is more than just guardianship.

Yerp, that's fair enough for me.

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I would do one of those but I'm too lazy to type a bunch of spoiler tags. So, .

 

[Dana Scully]

But I never said there was a father/daughter relationship there. Just that he fills the parental figure role, that he's 'the dad' of the family unit as it stands under the 7th heaven, and Barret is not. That doesn't change the father/ daughter relationship between Barret and Marlene, but that relationship exists outside the 7th heaven family dynamic.

I get what you're saying. I just want to be clear that IMO there is a difference between playing 'the dad' and being a father figure.

I think the issue here the the definition of a "father figure". If you're calling someone a father figure, the implication is that the relationship is more than just guardianship.

This.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I think the issue here the the definition of a "father figure". If you're calling someone a father figure, the implication is that the relationship is more than just guardianship.

I get what you're saying. I just want to be clear that IMO there is a difference between playing 'the dad' and being a father figure.

Fair enough, though I would argue that Cloud and Marlene's relationship IS more than mere guardianship, enough for him to be a father figure to Marlene, though no replacement for her actual father.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Here you and I will have to disagree. You don't have yet another scene bring up 'the promise' if you want us to believe that. I just don't see Cloud lying there and have his dying thoughts be of Reeve.

At least not in such an overly dramatic artsy way. I mean the pause before he says "Tifa" is such a buildup that when he finally says it I felt like having a smoke.

Glad to hear it was good for you too, doll.

But, I agreed that there would be variations in Cloud's specific body language and such. As an example, I mentioned that I doubt he would have forced himself not to make eye contact with most of the others.

My point is that he would have been willing to die for the others, and if he were dying without having secured their safety, he would have asked Cosmos to protect them too. That's all.

And for what it's worth, no matter how much I agree with you, one can't read into how overly dramatic and artsy Cloud uttered that prayer without going into "kissing the rain" territory. It's interpretive, so it can't really be used as evidence for the conclusion -- no matter how cogent it may be.

That only applies to the Tifa/Denzel/Cloud dynamic. Once you add in Barret or Marlene (and both of them DO live in 7th Heaven), it doesn't fly. The point is it's kinda stupid to shoehorn these characters into typical family roles when it's a created family ...

I'm not trying to miss the point here deliberately, I promise, but is there any other kind?

He does live in 7th Heaven during CoT.

That's stretching it a little. CoT says he's there for one week after the place is built, and then he leaves.

Just because you participate in the barn raising, dance the hoedown with everybody else, and spend the night in the stable before you take off for home the next morning doesn't make you a resident of the farm.

He leaves Marlene there as he goes on his righteous quest. And in Dirge he's reunited with the group, so odds are pretty high he went back home to be with his kid.

He's reunited with them for the purpose of the battle against Deepground, just like he reunited with them for the battle in Edge against the SHM. Also, the post-Dirge portion of Case of Denzel never even mentions Barret's name, in neither the text-only nor OVA versions.

We've never been given notice that Barret spent more than the one week at 7th Heaven.

I'm sure it's always open to him, of course, but it's not his place. Heck, the second line of Case of Barret even begins, "After helping Tifa and Cloud build their home ... ."

Also I'd like to take this moment to also say the compilation has a serious lack of Barret & Tifa interaction when they had the ultimate fucking bromance. needs more tbh

True dat, homie.

One last question regarding Dissidia:

I read somewhere that at first, Dissidia wasn't supposed to be a part of the FF stories, but after the popularity of it, they decided it would be.

Can anyone confirm/deny this?

It was always talked about pre-release as a legitimate FF entry:

http://thelifestream.net/final-fant...-–-an-analysis-by-squall_of_seed-makoeyes987/

http://thelifestream.net/final-fant...-plot-of-final-fantasy-dissidia-012-duodecim/

 

[Vendel]

And for what it's worth, no matter how much I agree with you, one can't read into how overly dramatic and artsy Cloud uttered that prayer without going into "kissing the rain" territory. It's interpretive, so it can't really be used as evidence for the conclusion -- no matter how cogent it may be.

I didn't hear him whispering Aerith's name while he was "kissing the rain".

I'm sure it's always open to him, of course, but it's not his place. Heck, the second line of Case of Barret even begins, "After helping Tifa and Cloud build their home ... ."

The vibe I get is that this is more or less the permanent situation. Marlene will be raised by Tifa and Cloud. While Barret is off making the world a better place for her to grow up in.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

i take this thread as seriously as cancer

WHEN I SAY RHYTHM IS A DANCER

Fair enough, though I would argue that Cloud and Marlene's relationship IS more than mere guardianship, enough for him to be a father figure to Marlene, though no replacement for her actual father.

marlene nags him just like tifa does in acc. their relationship is symbiotic in the sort of way that doesn't characterize father/daughter relationships, but could characterize that of extremely close friendship or that of siblings in a way.

 

[Elisa Maza]

DAMN FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS, HOW DO THEY WORK???

Cloud is Marlene's guardian, but Barret is her "papa". She calls him as such in front of Cloud in ACC. And then, Cloud proceeds into combining her, Denzel and Tifa in the unit he calls family that always supported and protected him, so it's time he returns the favour, about which Marlene has an excited nod. Meaning, she sees them as family as well. But Barret is her papa.

Plus, in CoT, Marlene has no problem to call herself, Tifa and Cloud as "this family" she will be a good kid at when she waves bye-bye at Barret.

It's mixed. When, for example, a child goes to stay with his/her uncle and aunt until his/her father is back on his feet, the child will develop a father/son/daughter relationship with the uncle, maybe a stronger one with his/her biological father (not arguing that this is the case in our hands) but will always call his/her father "papa".

I always thought that Marlene was raised from Avalanche as well back in the days, but only Barret was her "papa". Denzel, on the other hand, is raised in a pretty standard family archetype and so he sees Cloud filling both roles as guardian AND "papa" (I just love typing this word, don't mind me <3).

However, what on earth has this to do with Cloud and Tifa? What, a couple in fiction cannot be canon unless they are parents in the story, or something????? (Not to mention that with Denzel, Cloud and Tifa ARE.)

That's how I see it, at least.

My point is that he would have been willing to die for the others, and if he were dying without having secured their safety, he would have asked Cosmos to protect them too. That's all.

I'm not gonna argue that the real Cloud is that anime anti-hero douche he acted as in the beginning of the OG ("not my problem", "not interested", etc) and that he would give the genuine cold shoulder to any of his comrades, but if we take it from an author's intent, yes, the fact that they put *Tifa* as the person he acted for like this (or, vice-versa, they made Cloud acting in this specific way when Tifa was decided to be in Duodecim) tells something.

It was always talked about pre-release as a legitimate FF entry:

http://thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-dissidia/4998/frequently-asked-questions-regarding-dissidia-final-fantasy-%E2%80%93-an-analysis-by-squall_of_seed-makoeyes987/

http://thelifestream.net/final-fant...-plot-of-final-fantasy-dissidia-012-duodecim/

I would swear I saw an article that said what I thought... Meh, my memory must be screwed.