New year, New LTD thread. (Round 5)

[Alessa Gillespie]

However, what on earth has this to do with Cloud and Tifa? What, a couple in fiction cannot be canon unless they are parents in the story, or something????? (Not to mention that with Denzel, Cloud and Tifa ARE.)

That's how I see it, at least.

i don't think anyone said this?

it has been acknowledged that cloud, denzel and tifa definitely have a dynamic of mother/father/son. with marlene, it's a little different, and i think even cloud realizes this if you take the infamous 'do you love me' lines where he says he doesn't know how to approach her sometimes.

 

[Elisa Maza]

I'm just wondering what is all this debate about Barret being part of the family dynamic or not. Does it have a purpose connected to the LTD?

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I'm just wondering what is all this debate about Barret being part of the family dynamic or not. Does it have a purpose connected to the LTD?

it's more people's personal frustration at barret seemingly getting forgotten and cloud being thrust into the position of surrogate father when their dynamic doesn't indicate this for marlene, more for denzel

 

[Elisa Maza]

I don't see it happening that much... but thanks, anyway.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I didn't hear him whispering Aerith's name while he was "kissing the rain".

Listen closer.

The vibe I get is that this is more or less the permanent situation. Marlene will be raised by Tifa and Cloud. While Barret is off making the world a better place for her to grow up in.

One does wonder.

And if he does, while some will hold that against him, I don't think that makes him a bad father. He's just doing the best he knows how. What say you?

I'm not gonna argue that the real Cloud is that anime anti-hero douche he acted as in the beginning of the OG ("not my problem", "not interested", etc) and that he would give the genuine cold shoulder to any of his comrades, but if we take it from an author's intent, yes, the fact that they put *Tifa* as the person he acted for like this (or, vice-versa, they made Cloud acting in this specific way when Tifa was decided to be in Duodecim) tells something.

I don't think it tells us that he wouldn't have done that for the others, though. He was willing to stay on the Shin-Ra No. 26 to try rescuing Cid, and he'd known him less time than any of his other comrades in AVALANCHE.

 

[Elisa Maza]

I don't think it tells us that he wouldn't have done that for the others, though. He was willing to stay on the Shin-Ra No. 26 to try rescuing Cid, and he'd known him less time than any of his other comrades in AVALANCHE.

I'll try again.

Cloud, the real Cloud would go and do anything to keep all his comrades safe, no matter how stupid, or self-sacrificial (one could argue that they are the same thing...) it would be. However, in this particular case, they tied his actions with his "Hero of the girl I want to impress" reason, which *is* romantic in nature and not just "comrade in Avalanche". Yes, he called her as such, but their interaction yelled at their promise-under-the-stars scene as well, which tied to his death scene, blah, blah... Hence, it colours these actions differently. Say it's an additional hue.

Yes, I took both the reports into account. I should had mentioned that before.

 

[ForceStealer]

it's more people's personal frustration at barret seemingly getting forgotten and cloud being thrust into the position of surrogate father when their dynamic doesn't indicate this for marlene, more for denzel

But then a lot of the arguments for why Cloud and Marlene do NOT have a father/daughter relationship are coming from the Compilation (Case of Tifa, and ACC). So that's where I get a little confused as to what the complaint with the compilation is if the compilation supports the notion that Cloud's not her father. I understand complaints from the people that are of the opinion that Barret leaving again was bad characterization, but not those that Cloud is thrust into the position of surrogate father when, ACC especially, clearly demonstrates the uniqueness of Cloud and Marlene's relationship.

Also, though I know this is minor, there is that great AC render from the 10th Anniversary thing of Barret and Marlene standing together. I don't think he's being forgotten.

I think the issue here the the definition of a "father figure". If you're calling someone a father figure, the implication is that the relationship is more than just guardianship.

You are right, but also that there is an implication that the relationship is less than the father. Hence the ability to be a father figure, but there is only the father.
That said, I agree that I don't perceive their relationship as father/daughter. Despite the age difference, I'd almost call them friends more than anything. But as Tifabelle said, these things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, as events such as that in Case of Tifa where Cloud teaches the kids how to spell and write new words imply, he is still fulfilling some fatherly roles.

Additionally, even in Japanese, where these sort of distinctions are all the more important, Marlene refers to both Cloud and Tifa by simply their first names with no polite or honorific speech. So even Tifa, who I think most think is more of a mother than Cloud is a father, is treated like a friend of Marlene in that regard. While she refers to Barret exclusively as papa/daddy (and Tifa is referred to as Denzel's "mama" by Barret).


Also, should I split this stuff into its own topic? This is, frankly, why I don't have a problem with the LTD's existence, because every now and again it pops out some legitimately interesting discussion that probably never would have come about on its own.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Force, I'd leave the discussion here. If it gets moved, it would only stifle and die. Nature of the beast.

I'll try again.

Cloud, the real Cloud would go and do anything to keep all his comrades safe, no matter how stupid, or self-sacrificial (one could argue that they are the same thing...) it would be. However, in this particular case, they tied his actions with his "Hero of the girl I want to impress" reason, which *is* romantic in nature and not just "comrade in Avalanche". Yes, he called her as such, but their interaction yelled at their promise-under-the-stars scene as well, which tied to his death scene, blah, blah... Hence, it colours these actions differently. Say it's an additional hue.

Yes, I took both the reports into account. I should had mentioned that before.

I'm not disagreeing that it has that additional hue, nor that it ties the promise to his actions. I'm just saying that the matter isn't all that LTD-relevant since it's not something Cloud would do only for Tifa.

So, while you could certainly say it's romantic, it's not LTD fodder, if you get me.

 

[Elisa Maza]

It looks like we say almost the same thing, only with different words.

I'll leave it here, since it's 1 in the morning in Greece... I need to sleep. Cheers! <3

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Lemme see if I can help here. Yes, Cloud would fight to protect and even lay down his life for pretty much any of his comrades from FFVII. As an example, if it had been Barret he'd have gone in and gotten himself killed just the same, but rather than reference the promise maybe he'd have had a flashback to Corel Prison, of himself saying "If you die on me, I'm gonna have nightmares."

On the other side of the coin, it wasn't Barret, it was Tifa. And the reference was to "The Promise" which is basically the point where Cloud and Tifa's romantic possibilities first opened up (since Cloud was too much of a wuss/punk to talk to her before then). So it definitely does have a romantic aspect to it.

In other words, you're both kinda right.

 

[Fighter]

So, while you could certainly say it's romantic, it's not LTD fodder, if you get me.

Depends on who you talk to. It matters to some people if two characters are together in an AU game. So they say at least.

 

[Zee]

generally the argument I gather from those who think AUs do count is that SE does a lot of pandering towards cleris as opposed to cloti, but I really see that more a byproduct of Aeris being dead in FF7 canon -- since they obviously don't want to bring her back, they put her into AU worlds to make fans happy. And seeing how Cloud is their favorite exploitable character ever, he usually makes the cut with her. Plus the staff knows how intense the fandom is about this pairing crap, and ship teasing is the best way to gain interest (HEY LOOK, YOUR COUPLE IS TOGETHER IN THIS GAME, CAN WE HAVE YOUR MONEY NOW?).

what they really need to do is put lightning is kh3 so i can pretend she and aeris ran off in lesbian love together forever.

I'm actually happy for the Cloti fans getting more sidestory fanservice for their couple (there's KH2 as well, but that half assed plot was bullshit srsly). Tifa getting a little story without Cloud but still getting some Cloti play in there was a good move imo, even if the rest of the story is shit.

 

[Fighter]

I liked the "light & dark" theme in KH2. But they could have made it a lot more interesting.

 

[Splintered]

Ehhh.

If someone is going to convince me that Barret is never going to come for Marlene eventually, I'd probably just lol in their face. Yes, Cloud-Tifa-Marlene-Denzel are their own family unit. But one cannot blatantly ignore Marlene's own father in that dynamic, somehow.

Depends on who you talk to. It matters to some people if two characters are together in an AU game. So they say at least.

Everytime I go to a debate where there is talking about how Dissida=ltd, I keep seeing bring up Clerith's and what they believe and how we're so much better because we don't really use it. For serious, this has been popping up since Tifa was actually announced. It's kind of passive aggressive. (to be fair, I've seen it the other way around too, where people are like- LOL can't wait for Clotis to flip flop!)

Oh also, the scenes in Aus and Dissida aren't meant to be taken as romantic. What it is meant to do is to ping on the point that their relationships are significant. That scene where Cloud saves her means nothing by itself, but if you truly believe that Tifa and Cloud where romantic, you think it is a hint because their relationship woul be romantic in canon. If you don't think it, then it means nothing. Canon is the only thing that really matters, because without it- there is no context on what happened.

what they really need to do is put lightning is kh3 so i can pretend she and aeris ran off in lesbian love together forever.

Tifa and Lightning are canon. Go away. *goes back to drawing Tifa/Lightning fanart*

 

[Zee]

I don't even mind the light/dark theme, since it was something that needed addressing but...

I just hated that they poorly rehashed Riku's CoM storyline and gave it to Cloud.

And then had Cloud fight Sephiroth for the 50th time.

And then gave Tifa like 5 minutes of screentime before they both buggered off again.

And then that awful feeling when you just know they're going to drag this crap out in the next installment.


Just bring in the FFXIII girls. Lesbians everywhere. Everyone's a winner.

Tifa and Lightning are canon. Go away. *goes back to drawing Tifa/Lightning fanart*

*updates the aerith/lightning tumblr*

 

[Splintered]

I didn't mind it. But then again, I'm a sucker for Tifa fighting, and Tifa fighting Sephiroth made me happy. (I know you didn't like Tifa in KHII, but I thought it was quirky fun).

The only thing that had me annoyed was actually fighting Sephiroth.

I had to fight that fucker way too many times until I actually won. FUUUUUUUUU, Fenrir is not that great of a reward. But at least I had Tifa vs Sephiroth.

Also, all this talk about the family gives me a good reason to bring out my old sig. That and my other one actually misspelled Lockhart. D:

 

[Fighter]

And then that awful feeling when you just know they're going to drag this crap out in the next installment.

That. Yes.

Riku's CoM story I don't even know. Cloud fighting Sephiroth.... just accept they are incapable of doing without. It's like gravity.

 

[Zee]

I didn't mind it. But then again, I'm a sucker for Tifa fighting, and Tifa fighting Sephiroth made me happy. (I know you didn't like Tifa in KHII, but I thought it was quirky fun).

That part I actually did like, but then it goes back to asinine Cloud/Sephiroth drama and I'm just like

 

[OneWingedDemon]

but then it goes back to asinine Cloud/Sephiroth

dun be jealous of their love. SE knows it to be true so IN YO FACE

 

[Fighter]

I want to know what Nojima originally wrote before Nomura came by and went "Let me be all vague and smartass and cut this out."

 

[Zee]

dun be jealous of their love. SE knows it to be true so IN YO FACE

totally their theme song:

 

[Vendel]

Listen closer.

I'll put on my pink headphones and watch that scene again.

One does wonder.

And if he does, while some will hold that against him, I don't think that makes him a bad father. He's just doing the best he knows how. What say you?

If Barret thought that her being raised by a stable family unit they both know and trust was better for her? Then I have no doubt he would do it.

And all indications are that is exactly what he has done. And we are given no indication that situation will change anytime soon.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

It's hard being a shipper. It's hard and no one understands.

 

[Splintered]

It's hard being a shipper. It's hard and no one understands.

But someone must do it. Someone must brave the long and hard hours of pointless debating and posting fanarts. Because if not us, then who?

How else would the world ever understand what 'koibito" really means. I mean, even Japan got it wrong!

 

[Vendel]

It's hard being a shipper. It's hard and no one understands.

It does seem like a lot of work. I don't know how you people do it.