New year, New LTD thread. (Round 5)

[Dashell]

So I said

I mean, look really closely Ryu, can you honestly say this looks nothing like White Materia? What's so different, or is it different at all?

and posted an image. And you said:

Color, lack of wide white stripes running in parallel bands. And the size. Yes yes, 'But Zidane's was shrunk' but why inflate the WM by 3 or 4 times its diameter?

Then when I pointed out that I photoshopped it you said:

Actually, I WASN'T referring to that image.

So you weren't talking about the image I posted after I said look closely? Why did you think I posted the picture? What did you think I was telling you to look at exactly?

EDIT
I mean you must have at least seen it, right? Why not "I can tell that's the white Materia, but in the game.." or something?

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Please, if you'd be so kind, provide examples of those who cannot see it as any kind of materia. Otherwise I'm just going to call this for what it is- being an asshole for the sake of being an asshole.

Stop being a pouty bitch about it. You really want me to go through game forums and post the threads on people asking what Cloud's crystal is and the 50 responses that call it the white materia? Is that really what you want me do, because, fuck it, I got the weekend off and I can. Otherwise, please note that there ARE in fact people that play Dissidia and do not live their lives in FF and do not know what the hell materia is. SHOCKING, I know. And yes, a quick google of 'What's Cloud's Crystal in Dissidia" will give you examples of people that cannot see it as materia. So again, cite or fall back.

Given that my argument is that it doesn't represent any materia, it turning out to be 'ball of condensed lifestream'- which, for the record, is what we call materia- or hair, it wouldn't be any skin off my back.

I'm well aware of what materia is--I was being sarcastic in phrasing as in we're arguing the SAME SHIT with different wording. Pay attention, I really shouldn't have to spoon feed you like I do some people. And since we're in agreement that it doesn't matter what the crystal is, then I'll happily call it WM and you can call it Ice (or whatever).

So, Merchandise is absolutely not reliable to represent the genuine article. Noted.

And CG from 1997 is probably not a reliable counter to current CG production. Also noted.

I don't just mean available to the party but in world as well, since you can buy magic materia on the cheap.

Which, imo, really diminishes what Cloud's Crystal ends up being if it's some generic whateverthefuck. But hey, different strokes, different folks.

Except my argument doesn't rely on it. My argument doesn't care if it is a lump of hulk hair. My argument lies in the default claim territory. Claiming that Squall's crystal is one thing or another in particular, does not.

And my argument would be there is no default claim. You can't default to generic materia without it ever being confirmed as materia. Again with citation if such a requirement is being slapped on the other crystals. If someone wants to claim Squall's crystal as Sephiroth's wing or a deformed dildo, then until confirmed or refuted, you can't say: "You're wrong, because such and such reasons and criteria I've implemented to form my own infallible opinion." Because, guess what...it's still just your opinion. Which may be more logical in some cases, but ultimately not factual. Just as my opinion that Cloud is holding the WM and that Squall's Crystal is a winged gunblade is still only my opinion on the matter-- even though I am fabulous and my opinions should be treated as such.

Except that with Bartz, and Cecil, the 'rather personal representations' are the exact same as 'representations of the world's source of power' and the crystals don't really have a personal relation to Cecil or Firion, for whom the crystal was little more than a subquest. Heck, even with OK, the wind crystal is still 'source of power' as well. And even granting those, it's still less consistent than 'sources of power' which has 9 of ten.

With Squall being the exception, then, right? It's not as if SE has never ever been inconsistent... ever. So yeah, totally ludicrous that in the cases where an item may simultaneously be a power source and hold some personal meaning that they would use them.

Which points out that you're actually trying to use two criteria 1. Personal importance and 2. Quest importance as a single criterion.

1. Yes. For the record, if Tifa was there, I still say the materia would be the WM. 2. No. But not ruled out.

I'm not requiring a source for the other crystals. My quoting of KXCD's citation was a joke for fuck's sake, just meant to emphasize that no one's sure what the hell Squall's thing is, so that citing the wiki without a source isn't helping.

Joke or not, you walked into a pile of shit as a result.

Actually, I WASN'T referring to that image.

Yes, you fucking were.

Congratulations. You fail at trapping me.

I don't think she was trying to trap you, but more prove that the distinctions between the materias wasn't quite as 'obvious' as some people purported them to be.

This has been entertaining. I've missed this thread. I so rarely get to play with Ryu because we're often of a like mind. It's really fun! Thank you, for the good debate. It's rare to find.

 

[Joker]

No wonder Cleriths never come here.

:joker:

 

[Dashell]

Yes, you fucking were.

If he really wasn't I'd like to know why he thinks I posted it

I don't think she was trying to trap you, but more prove that the distinctions between the materias wasn't quite as 'obvious' as some people purported them to be.

Thank you
As you can see, I tried to do the same thing to Vendel a few pages back. It wasn't personal Ryu, you just happened to respond.

EDIT
Also googled "What is Cloud's crystal in Dissidia" and got this as a result:
http://www.killthemongoose.com/dissidia.php

Thoughts: Well first of all, isn't holy supposed to be white?

What idiot wrote that? Huh?

 

[Splintered]

Stop being a pouty bitch about it.

lol @ FHS. Good to see you in full form again.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Que: Well done with the epic trolling. I literally lol-ed.

You're right that Terra's crystal could be her dad. Once again, I don't deny it's possible. I just don't think it's likely. Likewise, Zidane's crystal is shaped after the major crystal at the origin of all.

Zidane's crystal shape is even more generic than that, actually. The crystals at the center of all worlds in his universe have that shape.

In fact, if this page from the FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario guide is anything to go by, every world with a Lifestream might have a crystal shaped like that -- including III's, IV's, VII's and X's (and VIII's I would argue, but it's not mentioned on that page).

Though I do have an odd thought related to this.
Dissidia being canon and WOL's crystal being his shard that fills the full with light and restores the world, all the other crystals should have that power.
What the hell is that going to do when those heroes go home? Because they're heading home after their original adventures presumably, and for Terra, that means she's just reintroduced the powers of the gods to her homeworld, assuming the crystal made the trip with her. It certainly didn't with Tidus.

Given that the crystals had been keeping the warriors of Cosmos from vanishing during all of the Shade Impulse portion of cycle 012, that they had to transport them home, and that

Spoiler: Dissidia 012 spoiler

the crystals revived Cosmos after the final cycle ended

, I expect that the Warrior of Light's was the only one to retain any power.

I think Tidus's sphere is a Jecht Shpere (which, if I recall would be pretty specific to him and his quest) ...

Why a Jecht Sphere, though? All video spheres look like that.

Hmmm... that could be what the silver whorls represent... except:

is also, you know, small... and not the size of Cloud's head. and has silver whorls...

Ryu's point about the swirls on the other pendant may actually be a fair one, as those on the Black Materia pendant are actually part of SE's updated look for the Black Materia:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/SephirothDisplay3.jpg

also...Holy fuck, Squall's crystal is Sephiroth's wing! O.o

just kidding about the Sephiroth part, but yeah, the theory it's a wing isn't looking so far fetched at the moment.

Agreed. It's not terribly farfetched at all.

And if it's true, it would actually be another generic example of magic, as all of the witches in FFVIII have some kind of wing motif. Edea has a feathered collar, Adel has these spike things shaped like wings, and then Ulty and Rinoa have black- and white-feathered wings respectively.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Why a Jecht Sphere, though? All video spheres look like that.

For the same reason I think it's the WM. It holds significance to the warrior. I'm not trying to make anyone see my POV, but from a literary and story telling stand point it makes more sense to me for the crystals to be of some importance on a more personal level than 'generic power source'. It's really that simple. I'm not requiring hoops and citation for a differing opinion. I'm stating my own. And my opinion, as well as many other people that share it, is just as valid and supported as Ryu's or yours or anyone elses--which I believe I've shown. Agree? Great. Don't? That's cool too.

Ryu's point about the swirls on the other pendant may actually be a fair one, as those on the Black Materia pendant are actually part of SE's updated look for the Black Materia.

Well, that just supports the argument that what was shown in 1997 means dick to the matter at hand, now doesn't it.

Agreed. It's not terribly farfetched at all.

And if it's true, it would actually be another generic example of magic, as all of the witches in FFVIII have some kind of wing motif. Edea has a feathered collar, Adel has these spike things shaped like wings, and then Ulty and Rinoa have black- and white-feathered wings respectively.

Or the wings/gunblade could be a personal call back to Rinoa. That bitch pokes in on everything. But whatever it is, it's Squall's and unique to him.

Okay, much television laziness beckons. Don't have too much fun without me.

((hugs thread))

 

[Ryushikaze]

So I said

and posted an image. And you said:


Then when I pointed out that I photoshopped it you said:


So you weren't talking about the image I posted after I said look closely? Why did you think I posted the picture? What did you think I was telling you to look at exactly?

I thought you were asking me to examine how the crystal looked in Dissidia. So I did. I loaded up Dissidia. I honestly didn't consider the picture much at all.

EDIT
I mean you must have at least seen it, right? Why not "I can tell that's the white Materia, but in the game.." or something?

Because I didn't really consider it.

Stop being a pouty bitch about it. You really want me to go through game forums and post the threads on people asking what Cloud's crystal is and the 50 responses that call it the white materia? Is that really what you want me do, because, fuck it, I got the weekend off and I can. Otherwise, please note that there ARE in fact people that play Dissidia and do not live their lives in FF and do not know what the hell materia is. SHOCKING, I know. And yes, a quick google of 'What's Cloud's Crystal in Dissidia" will give you examples of people that cannot see it as materia. So again, cite or fall back.

So yes, you are just being an asshat for the sake of asshatery. Thank you for clearing that up.

I'm well aware of what materia is--I was being sarcastic in phrasing as in we're arguing the SAME SHIT with different wording. Pay attention, I really shouldn't have to spoon feed you like I do some people. And since we're in agreement that it doesn't matter what the crystal is, then I'll happily call it WM and you can call it Ice (or whatever).

But you're still making a positive claim without support when you call it the white Materia, which is not the case when you say 'we can't be sure what it is'

And CG from 1997 is probably not a reliable counter to current CG production. Also noted.

Even the current CG production is different than the merch. And still the size of a marble.

Which, imo, really diminishes what Cloud's Crystal ends up being if it's some generic whateverthefuck. But hey, different strokes, different folks.

It only diminishes it if you think the shapes of the crystals are supposed to have some story importance. Given Firion, I don't think they do.

And my argument would be there is no default claim. You can't default to generic materia without it ever being confirmed as materia. Again with citation if such a requirement is being slapped on the other crystals. If someone wants to claim Squall's crystal as Sephiroth's wing or a deformed dildo, then until confirmed or refuted, you can't say: "You're wrong, because such and such reasons and criteria I've implemented to form my own infallible opinion." Because, guess what...it's still just your opinion. Which may be more logical in some cases, but ultimately not factual. Just as my opinion that Cloud is holding the WM and that Squall's Crystal is a winged gunblade is still only my opinion on the matter-- even though I am fabulous and my opinions should be treated as such.

FHS, there is always a default claim. That claim is "we can't be sure." And that's all I'm saying. Squall's crystal could be any of those things, but we don't have a good enough shot of it to tell.

With Squall being the exception, then, right?

Yes. And only because we're not sure what it is. His could still be a source of power. We're just not sure what it is.

It's not as if SE has never ever been inconsistent... ever. So yeah, totally ludicrous that in the cases where an item may simultaneously be a power source and hold some personal meaning that they would use them.

They're generally not so bad as to be inconsistent regarding the rules within the same work.

1. Yes. For the record, if Tifa was there, I still say the materia would be the WM. 2. No. But not ruled out.

I didn't refer to Cloud's crystal alone, but to your list, where you speculate the crystals as being "rather personal representations of the world/quests these warriors have to go through "
And there's still nothing personal about the crystals for Firion or Cecil.

Joke or not, you walked into a pile of shit as a result.

Well, you're the one giving it to me.

Yes, you fucking were.

No, as explained above. I was referring to the actual game when making my comparison. PSPs are handy.

I don't think she was trying to trap you, but more prove that the distinctions between the materias wasn't quite as 'obvious' as some people purported them to be.

I don't think she was trying to trap me specifically, but she was laying a trap.

This has been entertaining. I've missed this thread. I so rarely get to play with Ryu because we're often of a like mind. It's really fun! Thank you, for the good debate. It's rare to find.

Welcome.

If he really wasn't I'd like to know why he thinks I posted it

Explained above.

Thank you
As you can see, I tried to do the same thing to Vendel a few pages back. It wasn't personal Ryu, you just happened to respond.

I didn't think it was personal.

EDIT
Also googled "What is Cloud's crystal in Dissidia" and got this as a result:
http://www.killthemongoose.com/dissidia.php



What idiot wrote that? Huh?

Whoever they are, we should never trust anything they say ever again. They're obviously completely insane.


Addendum: BTW, taking a look at the picture of the black materia Tres posted, the dark spots on the Dissidia Crystal actually fit those rather well, which is intriguing.

Oh, and Tres, I didn't think the crystals made it back (I did note Tidus's didn't return with him), just wondering what might happen if they did.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I thought you were asking me to examine how the crystal looked in Dissidia. So I did. I loaded up Dissidia. I honestly didn't consider the picture much at all.

**coughbullshitcough**

So yes, you are just being an asshat for the sake of asshatery. Thank you for clearing that up.

Not really, just asking you man up or shut up. If that's being an asshat, well... **tips brim**

But you're still making a positive claim without support when you call it the white Materia, which is not the case when you say 'we can't be sure what it is'

I said I believed it was the white materia. I did not assert at ANY time that it was 100% factually so. My point was, is, and will remain, that any statement stating that a person believes Cloud's crystal is the white materia is no less valid than someone seeing only generic materia. You're asking for support of that theory based on the assumption that it's 1. materia to begin with. 2. Fits into a pre-decided set of parameters YOU set up. My argument would be that 1. CITE IT. Because otherwise it's no more materia than a shiny bauble and saying "if-->then" means dick, considering. 2. Your 'power-source' theory is yours. Not SE's and not cited anywhere. Logical? Sure. Makes sense. Factual. No. So you asking anyone to prove their theories or merit based upon your own UNPROVEN theory is, well, dumb. No matter how sensible it may be.

Even the current CG production is different than the merch. And still the size of a marble.

I must have watched a different ACC. It looked fairly good sized. But that could have simply been the perspective.

It only diminishes it if you think the shapes of the crystals are supposed to have some story importance. Given Firion, I don't think they do.

Great. YOU don't think they do. I disagree. Life's great like that.

FHS, there is always a default claim. That claim is "we can't be sure." And that's all I'm saying. Squall's crystal could be any of those things, but we don't have a good enough shot of it to tell.

We can't be sure Cloud's is materia (although that makes the most sense). But let's assume that it is, you can't say that it's not the WM. Default claim and all.

Yes. And only because we're not sure what it is. His could still be a source of power. We're just not sure what it is.

And it could be a silver wing. It could be a camera tripod. It could be a lot of things, and if it's anything other than a power source, your theory is kind of debunked.

They're generally not so bad as to be inconsistent regarding the rules within the same work.

We must play different games...

I didn't refer to Cloud's crystal alone, but to your list, where you speculate the crystals as being "rather personal representations of the world/quests these warriors have to go through "
And there's still nothing personal about the crystals for Firion or Cecil.

Says you. Show me a source that says the crystals are generic and meaningless and I'll quietly eat humble pie and leave it. Hell, I'll happily say I'm wrong, if I am. It's really not that big of a deal.

Well, you're the one giving it to me.

No one else seems to want to. **shrug** May as well be me.

No, as explained above. I was referring to the actual game when making my comparison. PSPs are handy.

Yes, I have one. They are. Also, roll up your pant legs, here comes some more shit: **coughbullshitcough**. Nothing is ever more pathetic than someone refusing to admit they may be wrong about something. Dude, really? Q posted a pic, asked you to LOOK at the pic she posted and you loaded Dissidia on your PSP to make some sort of Ryu-tastic analysis? Riiiiiiiiiiight. I believe you. Sure.

I don't think she was trying to trap me specifically, but she was laying a trap.

That you walked into, and were neatly snared. Watching you flop around and flail trying to deny being caught is kind of amusing, however. Carry on.

Welcome.

**tips asshat** As amusing as it is, I'm finding the topic rather tedious. Anything else you can think of that we may be able to insult/banter about? Otherwise, I'll call: Good game! and leave the dead horse alone now.

 

[null]

I thought you were asking me to examine how the crystal looked in Dissidia. So I did. I loaded up Dissidia. I honestly didn't consider the picture much at all.

Ok dude. Personally I would have just laughed it off.

 

[Ryushikaze]

It's an honest report. That you don't believe it is not my problem.

 

[null]

Which sounds worse, being in denial, or not knowing what "this" means? You seem to gave the grasp of "that", so I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm far more interested in what little discussion there's been in here on what Squall's crystal is supposed to be a representation of than this back and forth about Cloud's. I really wish we knew for sure what it is, and FHS's image of that Sephiroth wing necklace is about as close as we've gotten to something useful.



On the matter of the Dissidia crystals being general representations of the world/sources of power in that world vs. things that are representative of something meaningful to each warrior of Cosmos, I think that whatever stance one takes, it should be consistent across the ten warriors. That is to say, if you think it's more valuable from a storytelling perspective that Terra's crystal represents Maduin, you would also explain the personal significance of Firion's crystal, and so on.

On the other hand, if you think they're generic, you'll take care to avoid any personal associations whatsoever when describing them.

Obviously, Squall's unidentifiable crystal throws a bit of a wrench into this either way, as you pretty much have to decide what you personally think it's supposed to be (i.e. you think it's supposed to be personal, so it's a gunblade or feather; or you think it's supposed to be generic, so it's a witch wing). Granted, you can choose to exclude Squall's crystal from the analysis altogether (which is what I personally have done for the past couple of years), but that almost feels like cheating.

Those are my feelings on all that anyway.

In any event, I've seen this notion danced around a bit during this discussion, but I just want to plainly throw out there that it's entirely possible that even if the crystal Cloud received is supposed to be representative of the White Materia -- not that there's any means of determining whether it's supposed to look more like a generic green materia than a specific one (e.g. the White Materia); just want to reiterate that to everyone: we have no way of knowing for sure -- it's still meant to be representative of the world he comes from rather than something deeply personal to him.

One can have it both ways. Just saying.

 

[Madame Mayor]

that's right

they're clerith ducks

everything else in this thread is invalid.

 

[null]

I LOL'd.

But now I have the duck song stuck in my head.

waddle waddle.

 

[Dashell]

Yes, I have one. They are. Also, roll up your pant legs, here comes some more shit: **coughbullshitcough**. Nothing is ever more pathetic than someone refusing to admit they may be wrong about something. Dude, really? Q posted a pic, asked you to LOOK at the pic she posted and you loaded Dissidia on your PSP to make some sort of Ryu-tastic analysis? Riiiiiiiiiiight. I believe you. Sure.

I'm wondering did he also load his FFVII game as well to make the comparison? Or just Dissidia?

I thought you were asking me to examine how the crystal looked in Dissidia. So I did. I loaded up Dissidia. I honestly didn't consider the picture much at all.

So... wait... wait... let me get this straight. Instead of looking at the image I posted for troll purposes your convenience, you got up from your seat (possibly, I dunno where your PSP is), loaded up your game, and took however long it took to Cloud's crystal, and then made a list of things that were different between that and the white materia from the original game? So, did you load up the original FFVII game as well to check?

Do you do this for all things or just for Dissidia crystals? If I were to have said, Ryu look at this and tell me what kind of flowers these are:

Would you look at the picture or would you load up your Crisis Core game to find out?

Me thinks you're being rather silly

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Totoally OFF-TOPIC, but I don't care:

Happy Easter to those that celebrate it!!

Happy Zombie Awareness Day for the rest of us!!!

Hope you're all safe and happy and loaded on sugar and good food. <3

 

[Kobato]

Totoally OFF-TOPIC, but I don't care:

Happy Easter to those that celebrate it!!

Happy Zombie Awareness Day for the rest of us!!!

Hope you're all safe and happy and loaded on sugar and good food. <3

Chatting about a materia, or white materia or whatever, is kind of boring anyways.

 

[Dashell]

at least we had some lulz

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Are we forgetting Aeris wore the WM IN HER HAIR? Does it look like she's wearing a tennis ball? This has little to do with shitty '97 graphics. It is repeatedly stated that she keeps it "hidden in her ribbon" in guides/Ultimanias. Nothing that's meant to fit in these slots (http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo238/Thalious/CG_Cloud-1.jpg) could be hidden anywhere on Aeris' head.

The BM is equally distinct. It's the size of a fucking orange, for one, and much larger than even AC materia.

They are opposites.

To me it appears he's holding the symbol of the source of magic in FFVII.
The White and Black Materias are important in FFVII, but at the same time they are made distinct from all other materia in the game. Cloud's looks like a normal materia in Dissidia.

http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy/images/a/a5/Dissidia_Final_Fantasy_Crystals.png

Looks normal green to me. Meh.
If some people want to think it's the WM, go ahead. I just don't think it looks like it much except in color, and even there it it is only kind of like the WM.

 

[Dashell]

You know those are unofficial renders right?

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I see you not addressing my point. Tell me again how a fist sized materia was hidden in Aeris' ribbon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbFxf2gEm9s
start at 5:01. It took me roughly 10 seconds to find this. See that tiny insignificant dot on Aeris' hair in the projection? WM.

No other materia looks like this in FFVII and neither does Cloud's crystal in Dissidia. Admittedly, its white markings only become this pronounced when it glows, but the glowy white materia with white swirly shit that resembles the lifestream = iconic image of WM.

Don't see why SE would take it and be like..."hmm, let's make those disappear. And make it like 4 times bigger! Yes! Brilliant! Oh, it now also looks like generic magic materia? Well, I'm sure it's distinct enough...we only took out its core distinguishing characteristics"

 

[Dashell]

But yes, some of the crystals change size and stuff. Although THAT would be the only one that got bigger, some of them are shrunk down as well. Size isn't really something to go by.

EDIT:
Also did you see the pic I posted a few pages back? or do I need repost it?

 

[Tir McDohl]

Is there anything in the holy materia bible Dissidia Ultimania that talks about this crystal poop?

 

[Dashell]

Yep, there's a full page on what crystals eat and how they poop.