New year, New LTD thread. (Round 5)

[Vendel]

But that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it caused him to reach his breaking point.

Um...that is exactly what you said.

Okay, so even though we saw more emotion out of Cloud in that one scene than in the rest of the game combined it's totally not reasonable to assume that in that moment shit got real? Because that's what I deduced and I know I'm not alone.

Hence - "Saying Aerith's death is what caused Cloud to go all emotional, more so than the rest of the game combined, is stretching that premise very thin."

 

[Dashell]

But that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it caused him to reach his breaking point.

You don't think him handing Sephiroth the black Materia and going apeshit on Aerith... AERITH of all people, was his breaking point?

 

[Winter]

eg: I know how analogies work, fuckass. you apparently just don't understand me.

did I ever say that nothing ever happened to cloud before aerith's death that made him want to kill sephiroth? no. I said that aerith's death caused a change in cloud and made his resolve even firmer, even moreso than we'd seen previously in the game. for a variety of reasons there was something different about the timing and circumstance of aerith's death that made shit real for cloud.

that is the significance of aerith's death, not whether or not it hurt more than the other things that have happened to him in his life.

this is all I am saying.

edit:

vendel: no, that is NOT what I'm saying. I'm saying that we saw more emotion out of Cloud, as a viewer, in that scene than any other in the first half of the game. I'm not saying Cloud was an emotionless prick or that he never felt upset at anything else in his life, I'm saying that the entire process of losing Aerith (I honestly include TotA in this, Quex) was a huge display of emotion from him.

 

[Celes Chere]

Yes.

Very well, name a time where Cloud said that Tifa was more important than his friends. And saying her opinion matters most is not the same thing.

 

[Dashell]

Very well, name a time where Cloud said that Tifa was more important than his friends.

Didn't he say something like "Nothing else matters, only what Tifa thinks?" and didn't he apologize specifically to Tifa or something?... "I'm sorry to you all, especially Tifa, you've been so nice to me?" idk if I got that right.

EDIT
And Dismantled's "Moreover I have Tifa by my side, I'm not fighting alone."

EDIT 2:

And no, saying her opinion matters most is not the same thing.

So essentially, "Give me a time when Cloud said Tifa mattered the most but don't use the time when he actually said this!"

 

[Zee]

The only one with no humor here atm is you

It does not ring hollow at all. Yes he still went, and no he did not immediately man up and become 10X more determined, he went somewhat reluctantly and fearfully.

yes he's afraid but he's also continuing on despite the fact that stopping would probably be a safer idea because he was so set on killing sephiroth

how is that not determination

 

[I Am Not Me]

I'm sorry but this mother argument is just. so. stupid. Tifa is motherly and calls Cloud a big kid, but clearly that's not a deterrent in their romantic life, right? So why should that be said of Aeris? It's confirmed both girls are motherly, Tifa in a literal sense, Aeris in an earth mother sense. He's reacting to the feel of her presence which is warm and comforting and yes, motherly, but I doubt if you asked him about his relationship with her that'd be something he'd seriously consider.

Why so defensive? I never said they can't have romance because Aerith is called motherly. And yes, I know that Tifa acts motherly towards Cloud too. What's your point? I never once said Cloud didn't love Aerith forever and ever and ever. Nor did I say that Tifa is more loved because she's motherly towards Cloud. OH HOW CONTRADICTORY I AM

No need to be angry, I wasn't saying anything anti-pink. Just pointing out how Cloud projected his loss of a mother on Aerith's motherly figure. LIKE I SAID IN MY POST.

My mother argument is stupid because...? It's not even the same argument you were responding to. Read plz.

kplzthxbai

 

[Dashell]

vendel: no, that is NOT what I'm saying. I'm saying that we saw more emotion out of Cloud, as a viewer, in that scene than any other in the first half of the game. I'm not saying Cloud was an emotionless prick or that he never felt upset at anything else in his life, I'm saying that the entire process of losing Aerith (I honestly include TotA in this, Quex) was a huge display of emotion from him.

Okay but to be fair, Vendel repeated what you said and said "This was a stretch" and you said "I didn't say that" and you had actually said exactly that

Okay, so even though we saw more emotion out of Cloud in that one scene than in the rest of the game combined it's totally not reasonable to assume that in that moment shit got real? Because that's what I deduced and I know I'm not alone.

Saying Aerith's death is what caused Cloud to go all emotional, more so than the rest of the game combined, is stretching that premise very thin

But that's not what I'm saying.

He quoted you exactly
I mean I don't like to say it anymore than you do, but he actually DID have a point there. And I will agree that Aerith's death did cause a change in Cloud but I don't really think that makes it the main motivator.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Ok, and he had that determination already. Events surrounding Aerith's beating at TotA and death at the Forgotten Capital are what made him afraid. Desire to kill Sephiroth is why he went anyway. That =/= Aerith's death gave him a 10X surge of new determination.

 

[Vendel]

Very well, name a time where Cloud said that Tifa was more important than his friends. And saying her opinion matters most is not the same thing.

Read this post again.

I have to disagree. Cloud sets Tifa above anyone else by his thoughts and actions. From the time he was 8 until he left for soldier he basically stalked the girl from a distance. And even when he came back as a trooper two years later Tifa is still the one indirectly forcing his actions. Hell even Zack noticed that Cloud was acting strange. And Cloud didn't say anything. Bros before Hoes?

Even the beginning of FFVII where Cloud is a headcase Tifa still has influence over him (even though he didn't know why at the time). She gets him to stay with AVALANCHE. And of course we have the (paraphrased)"It's your opinion that matters Tifa" and the LS sequence. We also know Tifa is his personal reason for saving the planet.

And after defeating Sephy Cloud didn't tell Barret he can succeed because he has him.

The point is, Cloud cares about his friends (living and dead). He very much cares about Marlene and Denzel. But he needs Tifa.

 

[Winter]

Why so defensive? I never said they can't have romance because Aerith is called motherly. And yes, I know that Tifa acts motherly towards Cloud too. What's your point? I never once said Cloud didn't love Aerith forever and ever and ever. Nor did I say that Tifa is more loved because she's motherly towards Cloud. OH HOW CONTRADICTORY I AM

No need to be angry, I wasn't saying anything anti-pink. Just pointing out how Cloud projected his loss of a mother on Aerith's motherly figure. LIKE I SAID IN MY POST.

My mother argument is stupid because...? It's not even the same argument you were responding to. Read plz.

kplzthxbai

i don't even know who you're replying to, but there's a really shitty argument about how c/a can't be because he only saw her as a motherly figure or some bullshit

when they said that the argument was stupid they were talking about that one, not the argument you were making.

I agree with you, but maybe you shouldn't be so defensive either?

 

[Winter]

Okay but to be fair, Vendel repeated what you said and said "This was a stretch" and you said "I didn't say that" and you had actually said exactly that.
He quoted you exactly

oh my god
no he didn't

I said "we saw more emotion out of cloud"
he said "caused cloud to go all emotional"

there's obviously a difference there, since i wasn't talking about what cloud had actually felt so much as what we as a viewer saw. i went over this in the very post you quoted.

i honestly wonder if you guys just pretend to have never taken an english class just so that you can nitpick my posts to hell and back

 

[Dashell]

Here's my question, are some of us really saying that if both Reeve and Tifa were in peril and he could ONLY save one, that he wouldn't save Tifa? Or he'd have a hard time thinking about it? I don't think he would... really... I think he'd TRY To save them both, but I mean really, which one would he go for first?

I said "we saw more emotion out of cloud"
he said "caused cloud to go all emotional"

So Aerith's death did NOT cause Cloud to go all emotional is what you're saying?

 

[Winter]

So Aerith's death did NOT cause Cloud to go all emotional is what you're saying?

oh my god that is not what i'm saying quex PLEASE read what i wrote again, it is just not this complicated

of course I agree he went emotional over aerith's death, i'm saying that there's a key difference in the way that i phrased it that makes vendel's argument null and void, because i wasn't saying what he thought i was saying.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

oh my god
no he didn't

He hit the quote button and used your exact words, so... yeah. Yeah he did. at least initially.

i honestly wonder if you guys just pretend to have never taken an english class just so that you can nitpick my posts to hell and back

I took english classes and got a perfect 36 on my reading comprehension tests for college entrance. You're just making very little sense.

 

[I Am Not Me]

i don't even know who you're replying to, but there's a really shitty argument about how c/a can't be because he only saw her as a motherly figure or some bullshit

when they said that the argument was stupid they were talking about that one, not the argument you were making.

I agree with you, but maybe you shouldn't be so defensive either?

I'll be defensive whenever I want, especially when my argument is attacked wrongly. I don't always post in here, sometimes only silly things, but whenever I do post something of relevance I would like to be treated as part of the actual discussion by having my posts actually read thoroughly. I know it's so much to ask, but I just want to be respected. I think I did make a valid argument but calling it stupid for all the wrong reasons pissed me off.

Also, they quoted my post, so it's my argument being talked about.

I may be 14 but I'm not stupid. I do think and feel like the rest of you.

Just sayin' man, i aint even mad

 

[Zee]

Ok, and he had that determination already. Events surrounding Aerith's beating at TotA and death at the Forgotten Capital are what made him afraid. Desire to kill Sephiroth is why he went anyway. That =/= Aerith's death gave him a 10X surge of new determination.

Except without Aeris dying in front of his face, he probably would have stopped pursuing Sephiroth once he realized he was too unstable to face him. So...yeah, a fresh new reason on why to fight would certainly add to his determination to kill Sephiroth despite his fractured mental state.

i honestly wonder if you guys just pretend to have never taken an english class just so that you can nitpick my posts to hell and back

well i was dogged for like four pages for an offhand princess bride joke, so

No need to be angry, I wasn't saying anything anti-pink. Just pointing out how Cloud projected his loss of a mother on Aerith's motherly figure. LIKE I SAID IN MY POST.

What Winter said about being defensive. I'm frustrated with the mother argument on both sides which had nothing to do with your argument, but was related to that topic hence my rant. And I don't really see anything to support Cloud projecting his mother onto Aeris. His unconscious call isn't really evidence imo.

 

[Dashell]

Okay I'm sorry Winter, don't hate me >_<
I'm trying to figure out the difference, because to me there is none.

When you said "even though we saw more emotion out of Cloud in that one scene than in the rest of the game combined" you did not mean the same thing as "Aerith's death is what caused Cloud to go all emotional, more so than the rest of the game combined"

Can you just please explain the difference.

 

[Celes Chere]

Didn't he say something like "Nothing else matters, only what Tifa thinks?" and didn't he apologize specifically to Tifa or something?... "I'm sorry to you all, especially Tifa, you've been so nice to me?" idk if I got that right.

And saying her opinion matters most is not the same thing.

Okay, that is not the same as choosing Tifa over others. Yes, she is the person that Cloud loves. I understand that. You do not need to prove that to me, I'm a Cloti fan afterall. I'm asking when he says that Tifa matters to him more than his friends, that he'd choose her over them. Let me try and explain uh... Okay, so you've got say a group of really close friends. And there's one friend that understands you the most. You cherish that person a lot. Does that negate the love and care for your other friends as welll? I'd like to hope not. If you love someone, it doesn't mean you stop caring about others. Or say like, one person hurt all of your friends. Because you were closest to that one friend, does that mean the other friends are what, chopped liver and just aren't as important? Would you really choose saving one person over the rest, or fight more for one person more than the others?

Read this post again.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Except without Aeris dying in front of his face, he probably would have stopped pursuing Sephiroth once he realized he was too unstable to face him.

Hooray for unfounded assertions! I see no reason why Cloud wouldn't have done the same thing if Aerith had lived, with the exception that she'd have been included in his "Something isn't right, will you come with me anyway?" moment. And said moment would still have happened, after the TotA debacle.

What Winter said about being defensive. I'm frustrated with the mother argument on both sides which had nothing to do with your argument, but was related to that topic hence my rant. And I don't really see anything to support Cloud projecting his mother onto Aeris. His unconscious call isn't really evidence imo.

You quoted her, she has every right to defend what she said. Maybe try not. calling. things. stupid. like. this. stupid.

 

[Winter]

Okay I'm sorry Winter, don't hate me >_<
I'm trying to figure out the difference, because to me there is none.

When you said "even though we saw more emotion out of Cloud in that one scene than in the rest of the game combined" you did not mean the same thing as "Aerith's death is what caused Cloud to go all emotional, more so than the rest of the game combined"

Can you just please explain the difference.

"go all emotional" seems to imply that Cloud was not, in fact, filled with emotion more than likely throughout many parts of the game. Under the surface Cloud was a trainwreck, he's "all emotional" throughout most of FFVII. That's not what I meant, and that's what Vendel seemed to take issue with.

I was talking about the reaction that we, the player, saw out of Cloud. I'm not talking about what we could infer Cloud was feeling, I'm talking quite literally about what we SAW of Cloud's emotion.

I really didn't think this was that complicated? sorry bro

Ok, and he had that determination already. Events surrounding Aerith's beating at TotA and death at the Forgotten Capital are what made him afraid. Desire to kill Sephiroth is why he went anyway. That =/= Aerith's death gave him a 10X surge of new determination.

Okay, so are you saying that Aerith's death didn't make him at least a LITTLE more determined? Because that is what I'm saying.

What you seem to be saying is "yeah Cloud was already pissed so Aerith dying was like a drop in the bucket as far as Cloud's rage goes"

and that doesn't seem to make too much sense to me. I don't see what you're trying to prove here.

You quoted her, she has every right to defend what she said. Maybe try not. calling. things. stupid. like. this. stupid.

uhh all we're saying is that she shouldn't be so rude/defensive. unlike her, zee wasn't trying to be rude or defensive and responding in that way isn't very becoming considering for the most part we all agree?

holy shit dude no need to white night, I (and I would assume zee too) understand where I am not me is coming from, we just think she needs to tone it down because any offense was unintentional.

 

[Max Payne]

I guess that I'm the only one that ever thought SE referring to Aerith or Tifa as "motherly" was always bullshit.

It's so stupid to categorize doting on people you love exclusively as being "motherly". Just herpderp.

Imo anyway.

 

[Zee]

Hooray for unfounded assertions! I see no reason why Cloud wouldn't have done the same thing if Aerith had lived, with the exception that she'd have been included in his "Something isn't right, will you come with me anyway?" moment. And said moment would still have happened, after the TotA debacle.

Are you projecting possibilities in an AU where Aeris lives and saying I'm making unfounded assertions? Quite frankly we don't know what would have happened had she lived, let alone how that'd affect Cloud and his pursuit of Sephiroth.

I do not understand how it's such a ~giant leap~ to think that seeing his friend murdered in front of him and being forced to almost commit the act himself wouldn't add some serious fuel to the "imma kill you" fire.

 

[I Am Not Me]

What Winter said about being defensive. I'm frustrated with the mother argument on both sides which had nothing to do with your argument, but was related to that topic hence my rant. And I don't really see anything to support Cloud projecting his mother onto Aeris. His unconscious call isn't really evidence imo.

Does everything need evidence now? This baffles me. I see opinions being thrown left and right here, so how come I need evidence for my one measly argument?

I'm talking about something deep inside Cloud here, I'll call it a speculation on my part, fine, but you can't just discredit it right off the bat just because I don't provide ROCK HARD SOLID evidence. A lot of people who post here actually say things that lack evidence as well. I'm sorry for posting stupidity then. All my fault for not bringing cold hard facts with me.

Cloud calls Aerith mother, he lost his mother, he feels sad about Aerith's death. One of the reasons he tried to kill Sephiroth in Nibelheim = his mother dead. It comes crashing down on him. He couldn't take it anymore. Cue the dramatic speech about his feelings. Sephiroth killing motivator switch ON!

Not so hard.

 

[Dashell]

Okay, so you've got say a group of really close friends. And there's one friend that understands you the most. You cherish that person a lot. Does that negate the love and care for your other friends as welll? I'd like to hope not. If you love someone, it doesn't mean you stop caring about others.

WHOA wait, let's back up here. This was your original post on the matter:

You know, I don't think it should be treated like a competition about who Cloud cares about more here. Aerith and Zack were people he shared a very close bond with. Tifa being his love interest (imo) doesn't set her above the others. I mean you have your best friends and your boyfriend/girlfriend - I think it is possible to care about them equally, especially in this situation (revenge). Cloud's not the type to choose a person over another, at least from what I've seen.

Where does negating love or chopped liver or anything like that even come up? You were talking about loving people equally, not falling in love and then hating everyone... uh... wow what?

You didn't say ANYTHING like that in your original post. and I never said anything like that so... what? That's a total shift of goalpost and, to quote Ryu, one hell of a strawman.


What I'm saying is, if someone like Reeve was in peril and so was Tifa, and both were going to die and Cloud could ONLY save on, I believe he'd pick Tifa. He'd TRY to save them both, but he'd go for Tifa first.

"go all emotional" seems to imply that Cloud was not, in fact, filled with emotion more than likely throughout many parts of the game. Under the surface Cloud was a trainwreck, he's "all emotional" throughout most of FFVII. That's not what I meant, and that's what Vendel seemed to take issue with.

I was talking about the reaction that we, the player, saw out of Cloud. I'm not talking about what we could infer Cloud was feeling, I'm talking quite literally about what we SAW of Cloud's emotion.

I really didn't think this was that complicated? sorry bro

Honestly to me saying someone displayed a lot of emotion and saying they went all emotional are at the very least, very similar and I can at least see why Vendel thought you said that.