Relationship between Remake and the original? (split from the "How many parts?" thread)

[Obsidian Fire]

But why does fake SOLDIER persona Cloud happen at all now? He doesn't need it or rather, post Mako poisoning Cloud has had to figure out some other way of being already to continually interact with Zack and whoever Zack takes them to see when they first enter Midgar and onwards. All progress towards being a walking talking person doesn't just get reset the moment Cloud is alone.

We don't know what Cloud did after Zack defeated the Security Forces outside of Midgar. Which... happened earlier than Zack's death did in Crisis Core. For all we know he still does. Heck, for all we know, Cloud would have developed his fake SOLDIER persona even *with* Zack around. Actually, we know he did that in the OG. All of Cloud's general SOLDIER knowledge was stuff he Copied from Zack with Mimic while Zack was still alive. In fact, he was around him for... a good 10 months and he still develops the fake SOLDIER persona. One more week probably isn't going to change anything.

To be honest, part of the point I'm making is that it doesn't matter *how* or *why* Cloud got the way he got in Remake. At least, not yet it doesn't (it might after Part 2). What matters is if the possibility of it happening is left open for it to happen, and I'd say it is.

Thing is in the OG... Cloud is around Tifa who knows what Cloud really is like and he is faking being a SOLDIER persona *in spite* of that. Or even more likley, *because* of it. He *wants* to be a SOLDIER. Very badly. I don't know how much Zack being around would stop that. We see Cloud in Crisis Core asking Zack about what being in SOLDIER is like. Zack definetly knew that is what Cloud wanted to do. I think it's... underestimating... Cloud's desire to be a SOLDIER to say he "doesn't need" his SOLDIER persona. Cloud's entire early life revolved around him wanting to be a SOLDIER. And it akes *a lot* to get him out of that mindset in the OG.

The question more is, would Zack let Cloud *keep* his SOLDIER persona or not. Tifa is willing to let Cloud keep it in both the OG and Remake even though she knows there's something not right about it. Zack... I don't know. Part of me thinks he would call Cloud out on it and tell him the truth if he found out about it. The other part of me... knows Zack has watched three people go crazy due to Jenova's meddling. And saw that trying to tell any of them what was actually going on didn't help the situation... it just made it worse. So if he thinks whatever is wrong with Cloud has to do with Jenova or Sephrioth (and he *knows* that was involved in the experiments done on them)... he might not call Cloud out on it... that hasn't helped anything before after all (the last time Zack pointed something out, Sephrioth burned Nibelehim down...).

If Zack surviving caused the events of the Remake then the place Zack and Cloud occupy after the battle is the one that precipitates the Remake. Where there are Whispers all over the place. Trying to kill people that should not be alive. Every single day and every single night and not being that subtle about it either. Is that what Zack's time in Midgar is gonna be likely, just a whirlwind of Whispers constantly attacking him. Never sleeping for weeks or months until the time of the Singularity? I dount it.

This is assuming Zack has to be alive for the timeline with the "creation" of the Singularity to happen. Which.... I don't think he has to be. I think he did die and the timeline did play out like the OG... until Aerith shows up and everything starts going sideways. This culminates with the Singularity getting made and Whisper Harbringer getting destroyed. Which conveniently breaks fate/destiny. Cue Zack's fate/destiny getting averted and time getting rewritten (probably).

It's more that the Singularity can have Zack both be alive and dead to come into existence than that it requires Zack to be alive to come into existence. What it *does* need is Sephrioth to be in the EoC and Aerith to have some information from the future and both of them messing around with the Lifestream. That's *way* more important to the story than if Zack is dead or alive.

This is also why Yuffie DLC will be interesting to watch. Are the events that take place it in what happened to *lead up* to Whisper Harbringer's defeat... or is it part of the rewritten timeline Whisper Harbringer's defeat made after being defeated. Given the whole line about Yuffie having a new destiny in the trailer... I'm getting the feeling it's the latter.

That is, Yuffie wasn't messing around in Midgar in Remake... at least... not until Whisper Harbringer was defeated... and then the timeline got shifted around so that she would somehow end up in Midgar. Which is also after the Whispers are defeated... so the odds of them trying to stop people in Midgar are... really low. Given what the emphasis of Yuffie DLC is, I'll honestly be shocked if they show up again in droves like they do in Remake.

 

[KindOfBlue]

The idea that Zack's death in itself didn't matter in terms any effect it had on Cloud's psyche, that Cloud being comatose until Zack was removed from the picture didn't matter in the OG are things I'm not on board with.

Assuming this is what’s going on though it still happened from Cloud’s perspective and that’s really all that matters, he would only remember the life he actually lived, not whatever new life he might have had

The thing that has stopped him from reaching Midgar was removed, the thing that was gonna gonna happen when he gets to Midgar doesn't happen anyway because new reasons isn't very narratively satisfying.

Unless if Zack gets kidnapped? Maybe the Turks succeed in finding him?

A new reason will need be inexplicably be invented in a very short time frame. Zack didn't part with it for years on end until now, through thick and thin, a matter of weeks isn't longish by any measure.

I’d say have Zack leave the sword behind after being captured or something, I don’t think it’d be hard to just come up something something

why does Cloud's stuff specifically need to actually remain unchanged both memory and event alike post-singularity anyway?

To avoid the exact problem you’re describing, I think...it saves them the trouble of having to rewrite “our Cloud” and at least allows his character arc to still resemble the OG

If he's just off in his own timeline, I don't know if that works for the narrative...it distracts from the core story and has little potential weight.

This is my biggest reason for not being 100% on board with the two parallel timelines idea, it’s still Cloud’s story after all

Events haven't yet developed far enough along to determine whether ACC's events can still transpire as remembered.

Maybe some of them will but others don’t? If AC ends up being the conclusion but only to the OG, the remake could at least keep Cloud and Tifa taking in Marlene and Denzel, living in Edge, starting up the delivery service/bar etc. that all seems like stuff to put in an epilogue for me. I feel like in a way, not retelling AC preserves its place rather than having a new version of it replace it.

 

[Roger]

We don't know what Cloud did after Zack defeated the Security Forces outside of Midgar. Which... happened earlier than Zack's death did in Crisis Core. For all we know he still does. Heck, for all we know, Cloud would have developed his fake SOLDIER persona even *with* Zack around. Actually, we know he did that in the OG. All of Cloud's general SOLDIER knowledge was stuff he Copied from Zack with Mimic while Zack was still alive. In fact, he was around him for... a good 10 months and he still develops the fake SOLDIER persona. One more week probably isn't going to change anything.

A good ten months of complete onesided input, where Cloud is unmoving and unresponsive. Until they near Midgar, where Cloud is able to stretch out his hand as Zack is leaving the fight the army. And then is able to crawl up to him as Zack lays dying, then he repeats Zack's words as Zack speaks to him. Then he makes a promise that he won't forget and is off to Midgar, walking on his own. Cloud in the space of time between Zack leaving to fight the army and Zack's death had gotten tremendously better. But he ended up alone again, until he met Tifa. Displacing all that with hanging out with Zack, who is fine should make huge changes.

To be honest, part of the point I'm making is that it doesn't matter *how* or *why* Cloud got the way he got in Remake. At least, not yet it doesn't (it might after Part 2). What matters is if the possibility of it happening is left open for it to happen, and I'd say it is.

I hugely disagree that it doesn't matter why Cloud is the way he is. When it is explained is not the point. The possibility of it happening is still open, yes. But why would it happen? Zack never found reason to part with the Buster Sword in all the years he had up until this point. He completely coincidentally just happens to find reason now, within days or hours of when in the original timeline, it was parted from him due his untimely death. That's bad writing. Zack is stopped from making to it to Midgar and Aerith by the intervention of the army and the Whispers, but barring that something just happens to stop him from meeting Aerith after making it to Midgar anyway. Zack fought like hell to keep Cloud out of the hands of Shinra and Genesis until his death. Now that he doesn't die, Zack is gonna immediately find reasons to part ways with Cloud.

Don't bring Zack back if you find need to write him out of every scenerio he should now obviously involved in cause he's alive and comes to Midgar with Cloud.

Thing is in the OG... Cloud is around Tifa who knows what Cloud really is like and he is faking being a SOLDIER persona *in spite* of that.

Cloud and Tifa were not that close when growing up. Tifa has a skewed perception of what Cloud is like as she doesn't know why her friends and father really don't like him and don't want Cloud to hang out with her. Cloud fighting with Barret makes sense to her because to her Cloud was always generally like that. The context for why Cloud and her friends specifically have beef is lost on her. And Cloud's SOLDIER persona is partly created by those perceptions as well, it is the ability of Jenova, whose cells Cloud bears to take the memories of others and use them.

Or even more likley, *because* of it. He *wants* to be a SOLDIER. Very badly. I don't know how much Zack being around would stop that. We see Cloud in Crisis Core asking Zack about what being in SOLDIER is like. Zack definetly knew that is what Cloud wanted to do. I think it's... underestimating... Cloud's desire to be a SOLDIER to say he "doesn't need" his SOLDIER persona. Cloud's entire early life revolved around him wanting to be a SOLDIER. And it akes *a lot* to get him out of that mindset in the OG.

Cloud has wanted to be a SOLDIER for many years, he only started to think he actually was a SOLDIER First Class when coming out of his Mako sickness, by being confronted by Tifa, who he desperately wants to impress by being SOLDIER, while wearing a SOLDIER First Class uniform and with a SOLDIERs weapon at his side. It was a perfect storm, one's whose conditions are not easily substituted. Cloud is not trying to impress Zack by being SOLDIER First Class, is not in a position where he needs to explain his appearance to him. But for all that, will find need to respond to Zack no less then Tifa if Zack doesn't die and Cloud's not left alone till he meets Tifa.

Tifa is willing to let Cloud keep it in both the OG and Remake even though she knows there's something not right about it. Zack... I don't know. Part of me thinks he would call Cloud out on it and tell him the truth if he found out about it.

Tifa knows something is not right, she has no idea what that something is or how far it goes. She's not choosing to let Cloud keep his false persona. (In OG, in Remake Hojo successfully exclaims while on loudspeaker to the party that Cloud is not a SOLDIER but nevermind that). Zack being around the party would complete alter what choices Tifa has here.

This is assuming Zack has to be alive for the timeline with the "creation" of the Singularity to happen. Which.... I don't think he has to be. I think he did die and the timeline did play out like the OG... until Aerith shows up and everything starts going sideways. This culminates with the Singularity getting made and Whisper Harbringer getting destroyed. Which conveniently breaks fate/destiny. Cue Zack's fate/destiny getting averted and time getting rewritten (probably).

It's more that the Singularity can have Zack both be alive and dead to come into existence than that it requires Zack to be alive to come into existence. What it *does* need is Sephrioth to be in the EoC and Aerith to have some information from the future and both of them messing around with the Lifestream. That's *way* more important to the story than if Zack is dead or alive.

The Whispers are intimately involved in the events that led to the party arriving at the Singularity, it just being the five of them on the highway, arriving at that point in time , deeply involved in what the Singularity is, if not outright the cause. If they're around, they're trying to kill elements like Zack. If they're not around to kill Zack, things'll be different for everyone else to.

 

[Roger]

To avoid the exact problem you’re describing, I think...it saves them the trouble of having to rewrite “our Cloud” and at least allows his character arc to still resemble the OG

This is my biggest reason for not being 100% on board with the two parallel timelines idea, it’s still Cloud’s story after all

Cloud impersonating his dead friend and Cloud impersonating his still living friend who is here and having to watch it happen are very very different character arcs, and the latter is not really Cloud's story anymore then it is Zacks. Two parallel timelines would do much more to preserve Cloud's story. At least then there are two stories and Cloud gets to be the main character of one of them at least.

 

[Fiz]

I really think too much of a deal is being made out of Zack surviving and Clouds story being derailed or fundamentally changed. Two timelines are not needed to preserve Clouds story. I have an issue with this being a thing, because I don't think its a thing.

Here, I can solve this now...

Zack walks Cloud towards Midgar, then they get attacked by Shinra... dunno who... Deepground... who capture Zack. They assume Cloud is done for/Cloud isn't important to them, so they leave him to die in the wastelands. The dropped buster sword is left lying there. Cloud awakens to find the Buster Sword and heads towards Midgar as he did in OG and bumps into Tifa as he did in OG, and hasn't had a load of time spent with Zack to derail his character arc. Zack is held captive by Shinra/Deepground starting his arc in Remake.

Took me 5 minutes, and I'm not even trying. I'm sure they can write a way through it. If Cloud's arc is changed by Zack surviving, then it'll be because they explicitly chose to do so. Not because Zack surviving explicitly changes Clouds arc.


The bigger issue I have with it is with Zack himself. Zack is likely going to be a playable character with his own arc, who is fundamentally involved in Remakes plot. Even if it is multiple timelines, I think its a pretty safe bet that the two groups will be crossing over and Zack will be with our group at some point.

 

[Roundhouse]

One idea that popped up on the server and in fics is that the Turks are the ones that intercept and pick up Zack...given their connection to secrecy and such, I guess that's not a bad angle.

As for Zack derailing Cloud, my own concerns would actually come in -after- all that stuff you mentioned -- but again, depends on how they handle him. If they are super careful about it, it could work, but it can't work if Zack is constantly travelling with the main party, I feel.

 

[Fiz]

One idea that popped up on the server and in fics is that the Turks are the ones that intercept and pick up Zack...given their connection to secrecy and such, I guess that's not a bad angle.

Possibly, that would make sense, I just went with Deepground because of Yuffie. They're integrating Compilation content into Remake, rebuilding Yuffies character and will have to write new stuff for Zack too. So I assume they will be connected in some way.

As for Zack derailing Cloud, my own concerns would actually come in -after- all that stuff you mentioned -- but again, depends on how they handle him. If they are super careful about it, it could work, but it can't work if Zack is constantly travelling with the main party, I feel.

Yeah, that's how I look at it. I don't think it alters Clouds journey and arc out of the gate, just potentially down the line. But, thats easily mitigated by having Zack away from the group until such a time that he won't affect Clouds journey, namely after Tifa has repaired his mind. That said, if they wanted to bring Zack into the group earlier, they could just have Cloud break earlier. Provided they didn't do it too soon then it wouldn't alter his arc that much.

 

[Roger]

I really think too much of a deal is being made out of Zack surviving and Clouds story being derailed or fundamentally changed. Two timelines are not needed to preserve Clouds story. I have an issue with this being a thing, because I don't think its a thing.

Here, I can solve this now...

Zack walks Cloud towards Midgar, then they get attacked by Shinra... dunno who... Deepground... who capture Zack. They assume Cloud is done for/Cloud isn't important to them, so they leave him to die in the wastelands. The dropped buster sword is left lying there. Cloud awakens to find the Buster Sword and heads towards Midgar as he did in OG and bumps into Tifa as he did in OG, and hasn't had a load of time spent with Zack to derail his character arc. Zack is held captive by Shinra/Deepground starting his arc in Remake.

Took me 5 minutes, and I'm not even trying. I'm sure they can write a way through it. If Cloud's arc is changed by Zack surviving, then it'll be because they explicitly chose to do so. Not because Zack surviving explicitly changes Clouds arc.

I submit that they CAN, why would they? They just did a story about a deliberate invisible hand of fate steering events towards the OG's plot that is acknowledged in the story itself being vanquished, culminating in Zack surviving, are they really going to follow that up with Zack immediately coming across the writer's hand throwing new events his way to steer thing back towards the OG's plot for no reason in particular in universe but for reasons very transparant to us?

If that's how they are okay with doing things why did they ever bother with the Whispers?

 

[Fiz]

I submit that they CAN, why would they?

To ensure the basic narrative up to the point we have reached playing isn't totally changed, to ensure character arcs aren't effectively closed before we even reach part 2. I would assume controlled changes going backwards.

They just did a story about a deliberate invisible hand of fate steering events towards the OG's plot that is acknowledged in the story itself being vanquished, culminating in Zack surviving, are they really going to follow that up with Zack immediately coming across the writer's hand throwing new events his way to steer thing back towards the OG's plot for no reason in particular in universe but for reasons very transparant to us?

If that's how they are okay with doing things why did they ever bother with the Whispers?

The purpose of defeating the Whispers, both in world, and from their perspective as writers and ours as players, is to facilitate changes going forward. Changes going backwards are to facilitate changes going forward.

Also, I'd add that separating Cloud from Zack doesn't have to be for the sole, transparent purpose of separating them so Clouds arc isn't totally derailed from the get go. It can also be tied into new story beats, built directly into Zacks own arc.

For example, if something like I threw out happened, if Zacks arc going forward is all about stuff like Deepground, if it connected him to Yuffie and integrated their story arcs going forward, and things like that, then it would become less a transparent plot contrivance and just become new plot. That it solved the issue of derailing Clouds arc is just killing two birds with one stone.

If on the other hand, they just had a band of random Shinra dudes knock him out and drag him off, only for Zack to begin a journey for which the dragging him off had no relevance to anything other than separating the two, then I'd agree, it would be a transparent plot device.

 

[Roger]

To ensure the basic narrative up to the point we have reached playing isn't totally changed, to ensure character arcs aren't effectively closed before we even reach part 2. I would assume controlled changes going backwards..

Why? Zack being alive isn't presented as a controlled change. He's just alive and free to do whatever Zack would have done if he had been alive.

The purpose of defeating the Whispers, both in world, and from their perspective as writers and ours as players, is to facilitate changes going forward. Changes going backwards are to facilitate changes going forward.

The best way to facilitate not having changes going backwards is to not have changes going backwards. Which isn't what they did.

Also, I'd add that separating Cloud from Zack doesn't have to be for the sole, transparent purpose of separating them so Clouds arc isn't totally derailed from the get go. It can also be tied into new story beats, built directly into Zacks own arc.

For example, if something like I threw out happened, if Zacks arc going forward is all about stuff like Deepground, if it connected him to Yuffie and integrated their story arcs going forward, and things like that, then it would become less a transparent plot contrivance and just become new plot. That it solved the issue of derailing Clouds arc is just killing two birds with one stone.

If on the other hand, they just had a band of random Shinra dudes knock him out and drag him off, only for Zack to begin a journey for which the dragging him off had no relevance to anything other than separating the two, then I'd agree, it would be a transparent plot device.

No. Whatever Zack does, no one is going to see him just so happening to lose Cloud, lose the Buster Sword and fail to see opportunity to see Aerith for all the months they are in Midgar at the same time as anything other then Zack being alive not being allowed to effect the things that happened and didn't happen because he was dead. It would never just be new plot. Zack having a new plot doesn't make that not a transparant plot contrivance.

 

[Roundhouse]

If Zack is even in Midgar, I think the reasoning is that he wouldn't dare contact Aeris for fear of Shinra attention...she's already under their eye as it is. If he's actually in Midgar, I'm assuming he's in full disguise, because to do otherwise would be...bizarre.

As for being separated from Cloud, I wouldn't actually see that as contrived...honestly, it's surprising that he even carried him as far as he did in the OG and CC. Now, after having fought an entire army, I'd expect him to be in a fairly weakened state...not sure how he can look after someone with awful Mako poisoning and defend himself properly if something were to happen, like the Turks or Deepground or whoever grabbing him. As for the sword, he could simply be disarmed during the encounter.

 

[Roger]

If Zack is even in Midgar, I think the reasoning is that he wouldn't dare contact Aeris for fear of Shinra attention...she's already under their eye as it is. If he's actually in Midgar, I'm assuming he's in full disguise, because to do otherwise would be...bizarre.

As for being separated from Cloud, I wouldn't actually see that as contrived...honestly, it's surprising that he even carried him as far as he did in the OG and CC. Now, after having fought an entire army, I'd expect him to be in a fairly weakened state...not sure how he can look after someone with awful Mako poisoning and defend himself properly if something were to happen, like the Turks or Deepground or whoever grabbing him. As for the sword, he could simply be disarmed during the encounter.

However bizarre it strikes you, we know Zack is going to Midgar solely to see Aerith, and we see him continue on to Midgar after the battle. If the battle with the army deterred him from going to see Aerith, he no longer has a reason to be headed to Midgar, which does not appear to be the case. If that isn't what he wants to do now, I sure dunno how the hell Cloud is gonna end up there.

Zack has been in a fairly weakened state for most of the trip as Crisis Core would have it. He nevertheless managed to carry a fully comatose Cloud around all year and continuously defend himself from pursuing forces. He will be in better shape now, given that there's no reason Cloud won't standing on his own two feet in a few minutes, just like he did when he left the cliff on his own at the same point in time when Zack died.

Disregarding for a moment that of all the thousands of battles Zack fought, the one that tears him away from the Buster Sword leaving it with Cloud just so happens to take place around the same time Cloud would have obtained it at his deathbed, the Zack scene is a verbatim recreation of the ending of Crisis Core, up until the changes.

When they wrote the Crisis Core ending, they felt Zack needed to physically push the Buster Sword in Cloud's hands and actively egg him on, in order for Cloud to start carrying it. I have a hard time accepting the same writers having painstakingly recreated parts of the PSP game going "yeah, he's disarmed in Cloud's general vicinity, that'll do it."

 

[Roundhouse]

Good point about Zack already having the intention of going to Midgar to see Aeris. In that case, they could just say that he is stopped from doing so by whoever captures him.

I don't think anyone could possibly be in better shape after fighting an army, I don't care if he's a pumped up SOLDIER, haha. (I suppose I would buy it if it were Sephiroth, but only him.)

Cloud taking the sword can be treated with a bit of dramatic finesse. That's the thing about stories -- something can sound unreasonable or forced on paper, but the execution matters so much. A good writer can find a way to make that feel natural using creativity, good dialogue, and structuring events in a skilful way.

 

[Fiz]

Well, if Zack was captured in some way then that would easily write out why he didn't go see Aerith. Unless Deepground or the Turks captured him and let him go the next day, which would be highly unlikely. To be the most obvious route would be for something to happen that separates Cloud and Zack, which kick starts Zacks arc and probably involve Yuffie.

No matter what it is though, if anything that separates them and creates Zacks story going forward is a plot contrivance then its a case of pick your poison because I really don't think the alternatives are much better. We have Zack exists in isolation in a strange timeline far away where he can't do any harm to the plot - which would make his living kind of pointless and anticlimactic, or we have multiple timelines where Zack is alive elsewhere and jumps into Beagle (or the group into Terrier), or Clouds entire arc is derailed out of the gate.

 

[Fiz]

Good point about Zack already having the intention of going to Midgar to see Aeris. In that case, they could just say that he is stopped from doing so by whoever captures him.

I don't think anyone could possibly be in better shape after fighting an army, I don't care if he's a pumped up SOLDIER, haha. (I suppose I would buy it if it were Sephiroth, but only him.)

Cloud taking the sword can be treated with a bit of dramatic finesse. That's the thing about stories -- something can sound unreasonable or forced on paper, but the execution matters so much. A good writer can find a way to make that feel natural using creativity, good dialogue, and structuring events in a skilful way.

And this is just it. While we try to figure out whats going on or make predictions, they're just that. Most of us aren't professional script writers working on AAA titles, and we aren't trying to figure it out by writing the actual plot we expect to see and make it sound pro. Just, figure out what it might be in fairly general terms or throw out possibilities for how something might work or what we expect. Whatever they do, we hope they write something good and considering they're professionals, we put faith in them to be able to do so.

 

[Makoeyes987]

My question is, why would Deepground want him?

The Turks marginally carries more plausibility but Zack even at his weakest would not lose to the Turks. And what would they even do with Zack if they "captured" him? Pull a Before Crisis 2? Keep him in a pokeball? What would be the point in that, other than serve as a thinly veiled contrivance to somehow messily change the past while shying away from the fallout?

I think there's a loss of the thread of authorial intent here. That doesn't make sense.

 

[Fiz]

My question is, why would Deepground want him?

No idea, I just threw that out there because Yuffie. If they're tying stuff into the Compilation, essentially rewriting Yuffie and have a blank page to move forward with Zack I'd be more surprised if Zack and Yuffie aren't involved in some way than if they weren't.

The Turks marginally carries more plausibility but Zack even at his weakest would not lose to the Turks. And what would they even do with Zack if they "captured" him? Pull a Before Crisis 2? Keep him in a pokeball? What would be the point in that, other than serve as a thinly veiled contrivance to somehow messily change the past while shying away from the fallout?

I think there's a loss of the thread of authorial intent here. That doesn't make sense.

But, I'd say, all things considered from Crisis Core, wouldn't it be more weird if Zack didn't have people after him? Zack having people after him would be much more appropriate than not. Either way, it would be built on new content.

I'd also point out, if we're arguing that it makes no sense that the Turks could capture him, he was gunned down by a bunch of regular Shinra dudes. So we're supposed to believe a guy who could handle the Turks even at his weakest was put down by the same regular Shinra dudes Barret, Tifa and Aerith can turn into mincemeat without even breaking a sweat.

 

[Roger]

No matter what it is though, if anything that separates them and creates Zacks story going forward is a plot contrivance then its a case of pick your poison because I really don't think the alternatives are much better. We have Zack exists in isolation in a strange timeline far away where he can't do any harm to the plot - which would make his living kind of pointless and anticlimactic, or we have multiple timelines where Zack is alive elsewhere and jumps into Beagle (or the group into Terrier), or Clouds entire arc is derailed out of the gate.

Do you remember the ending of Remake? Where the party entered a dimension where the whole of Midgar was destroyed around them by the Harbringer? They still have a bunch of new game endings to write befor they get to FFVII's actual ending. Crazy crap is gonna happen.

But, I'd say, all things considered from Crisis Core, wouldn't it be more weird if Zack didn't have people after him? Zack having people after him would be much more appropriate than not. Either way, it would be built on new content.

I'd also point out, if we're arguing that it makes no sense that the Turks could capture him, he was gunned down by a bunch of regular Shinra dudes. So we're supposed to believe a guy who could handle the Turks even at his weakest was put down by the same regular Shinra dudes Barret, Tifa and Aerith can turn into mincemeat without even breaking a sweat.

No. We're not. We now know that Zack only lost to thousands upon thousands of troops with airsupport on their side by his lonesome due to the invisible Whispers helping make sure he dies. Left to his own devices, they all fell against him and Zack is surprised at himself at how easy it was. The Whispers needed to keep Cloud from stonecold murdering Reno in their first encounter by comparison. Zack is going down to them?

 

[Makoeyes987]

No idea, I just threw that out there because Yuffie. If they're tying stuff into the Compilation, essentially rewriting Yuffie and have a blank page to move forward with Zack I'd be more surprised if Zack and Yuffie aren't involved in some way than if they weren't.

Right, but there should at least be a discernible reason for something that consequential and to justify such a change.

But, I'd say, all things considered from Crisis Core, wouldn't it be more weird if Zack didn't have people after him? Zack having people after him would be much more appropriate than not. Either way, it would be built on new content.

I'd also point out, if we're arguing that it makes no sense that the Turks could capture him, he was gunned down by a bunch of regular Shinra dudes. So we're supposed to believe a guy who could handle the Turks even at his weakest was put down by the same regular Shinra dudes Barret, Tifa and Aerith can turn into mincemeat without even breaking a sweat.

If people were going after Zack, it'd be to kill him, full stop. He's not an "asset." He's a rogue Shinra resource that contains physical trade secrets and knowledge that would need to be kept from the public eye, forever. Deepground wouldn't "capture" him, they'd kill him just like the military tried to do.

And the military took Zack out through sheer numbers, with Zack slaughtering almost all of them before finally falling. If the Turks had hundreds of agents working in unison to take him down at once, sure. They could succeed.

But they don't. They're a small black ops force, not meant for all out combat.

 

[Fiz]

Do you remember the ending of Remake? Where the party entered a dimension where the whole of Midgar was destroyed around them by the Harbringer? They still have a bunch of new game endings to write befor they get to FFVII's actual ending. Crazy crap is gonna happen.



No. We're not. We now know that Zack only lost to thousands upon thousands of troops with airsupport on their side by his lonesome due to the invisible Whispers helping make sure he dies. Left to his own devices, they all fell against him and Zack is surprised at himself at how easy it was. The Whispers needed to keep Cloud from stonecold murdering Reno in their first encounter by comparison. Zack is going down to them?

Stories don't work like that though, nor do they have to. You use suspension of disbelief, try to apply logic and they fail.

Zack looked pretty worse for wear after the battle.

Reno and Rude are a perfect case in point, yeah they needed to roll out the Whispers to stop Cloud murdering Reno, but during plate fall it took an all out battle and best they could do is have him take a time out on a couch complaining about some sore limbs for a bit. Cloud and Aerith both took on Rude together and he didn't even break a sweat, then Cloud, Tifa and Barret took him on in what was arguably the most important battle of of their lives at that point and he walked away being able to pick Reno up and jump in a chopper like nothing happened.

 

[Roundhouse]

If I were to do it, I would have Zack get taken down by surprise. Kind of like how the mall cop equivalent Cloud managed to sucker punch Sephiroth himself in Nibelheim. Just get a Turk to use some sort of disabling weapon or technique from a distance, in a stealthy way, and knock out the weakened Zack. Reno vs Cloud was more of a straight duel, but this would be just like getting sniped.

 

[Makoeyes987]

To be fair to Cloud and the others, they actually could have prevented the platefall.

They were cockblocked by fate because they fought so well and subdued Reno and Rude in that battle. Had the Whispers not created that wall to separate Barret and Cloud from Tifa, and let Rude fill in for Reno's actions, the platefall could have actually been averted entirely.

That fight isn't indicative of any equivalent level of strength between the Turks and Cloud and the others.

Just get a Turk to use some sort of disabling weapon or technique from a distance, in a stealthy way, and knock out the weakened Zack. Reno vs Cloud was more of a straight duel, but this would be just like getting sniped.

Why would they let Zack live?

 

[Fiz]

Right, but there should at least be a discernible reason for something that consequential and to justify such a change.

I'm assuming they'll be writing a load of new content, so? It just seemed like an obvious possibility to me.

If people were going after Zack, it'd be to kill him, full stop. He's not an "asset." He's a rogue Shinra resource that contains physical trade secrets and knowledge that would need to be kept from the public eye, forever. Deepground wouldn't "capture" him, they'd kill him just like the military tried to do.

And the military took Zack out through sheer numbers, with Zack slaughtering almost all of them before finally falling. If the Turks had hundreds of agents working in unison to take him down at once, sure. They could succeed.

But they don't. They're a small black ops force, not meant for all out combat.

Fair enough, I can't really argue with that. Other than, plot device. But, I still think its a more likely possibility than him just giving Cloud the sword and running off into hiding, and much more likely than Zack existing in some far out timeline for some side quests with Zack.

 

[Fiz]

To be fair to Cloud and the others, they actually could have prevented the platefall.

They were cockblocked by fate because they fought so well and subdued Reno and Rude in that battle. Had the Whispers not created that wall to separate Barret and Cloud from Tifa, and let Rude fill in for Reno's actions, the platefall could have actually been averted entirely.

That fight isn't indicative of any equivalent level of strength between the Turks and Cloud and the others.



Why would they let Zack live?

Okay, but, Rude still walked off like he hadn't just been in a massive fight. Whispers or no, he didn't break a sweat.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm not sure what Rude you looked at, he looked ragged and was extremely out of breath. He was exhausted and desperately worked to complete the mission. You literally see him sweating and panting after he pressed the button.