Relationship between Remake and the original? (split from the "How many parts?" thread)

ultima786

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ultima
I'm not sure how to put this without sounding really dismissive of someone, and I'm going to go off at a tangent, but there is a purpose to it, so...

The official English translation is very well directed, they certainly know the script, the intents of the characters, the situations, and accomodating their personalities, and are clearly being directed so that they get that down into English in a fluent and natural way. While there are differences, the changes are very much on message and in character, and they are expressing ideas in a fluent manner between languages. The official translation will also have been passed by quality control in Japan, who will want this translation to be good.


When you consider a fan translations credibility I would be looking at what they are choosing to change and the translators intents with these changes - especially if they are offering up a "more accurate" translation.

I study several languages and Japanese is probably the most toxic, and has the most difficult "community" surrounding it. This is mainly because of Otaku culture, which leads there to be a disproportionate amount of people coming into the language who aren't really into languages at all, they're into Japan, or anime. While thats not a bad thing, I promote the learning of languages, it does come with its own issues. Such as, not understanding how to properly express ideas between languages, and a resistancy to proper inter-language expression despite this being a fundamental skill for being able to fluently communicate ideas between languages.

Its a pretty important thing; its not all about syntax, and isn't all about "purity" in how another language speaks. This desire to strip translations away into something more "pure" is a dictinctively Japanese entertainment media thing to do. I don't see this happening much with Spanish or French. Not just because they're more similar to English, but because it doesn't have this same culture surrounding it.


To make a point, my GF is from Mexico, shes a law student at a presitgious university who is planning to do a masters next year, her major is international law, one of the roles of her mandatory internship involves the analysis of legal documents between languages and consulting on them. She speaks Spanish (native), English, French and Chinese. Needless to say, her English is obviously at a very high level.

She frequently however comes out with utter nonsense in English, or very confused statements while trying to put ideas from Spanish over into English. Particularly when shes trying to express directly from one language to another. As the common saying goes, you've got to think and express ideas in the language you're speaking, not the language you're interpreting from.

I bring this up because only today we had a discussion about joven. Its a common term in Spanish speaking countries for young. For various reasons they often use "adult" as the contrast to it rather than "old". There is a certain "Spanish way of speaking", which can be difficult to shake. Unfortunately it often leads to rather odd ways of speaking in English if you're not fully familiar with how the two languages express ideas differently. Sometimes it leads to rather amusing statements, or even inflammatory claims. Such as implying that you were the only child at the party despite being an adult. Or being in a conversation where you've just implied that your friends sister is a child bride and while this can work sometimes is ill advised, exclaiming that the pub is full of children, or the time when she implied that one of her friends... pardon?

It can also lead to unintended insults, such as accidentially inferring that an adult is immature, is like a child, or accidentally calling someone old.

So, these problems even affect the fluent, and languages are far more complex animals than being able to translate some words.



Pretty much, 90% of the time, these fan translation efforts for Japanese content that tries to be pure neglect the importance of expressing ideas in a natural way, and that languages don't work like that. These translations often spew out English that is akin to what happens when I speak to a beginner in Spanish, my GF's dad (he speaks very little English), or how I sounded when I was trying to talk to her brother in law in Spanish.

In other words, not fluent and not expressing ideas clearly or with the nuance I or they intend.

Watching that video I'm seeing a lot of translation into awkward English, petty translation changes (destinys crossroads into the crossroad of destiny), and there are times a character is saying something, they've gone super literal and the official translation sounds more knowing of whats actually being expressed.

I'm not going to claim to be able to give a precise translation argument myself, because I have patchy understanding of the scene. My Japanese is around intermediate level and I know my limitations. Also, as many people find, their ability to read and write is at a different level to their ability to listen and speak. To my ear though, the official translation *sounds* like what Aerith is saying, and theirs seems like a slightly ham fisted, simplified, Japanified, way of saying something similar. The kind of thing you get when someone isn't fluent in English or the language they're trying to speak in.

This is typically happens because they don't appreciate how language works, or they are unable to understand or express the nuance required.

Things such as Tifa saying ここには何がある stick out to me, which the official translation gives as "what will we find on the other side?", they've changed this to "whats beyond there?" which is the most literal and basic translation you might find of that sentence. That is a big red flag though, because this is a construction that comes up on places like HelloTalk, and other language discussion groups, all the bloody time and trips people up because there is stuff going on with that... some of that stuff might be confusing or invisible even to people who are aware of whats going on with it.

https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/1096/what-is-the-difference-between-に-and-には

Thats just one discussion on the construction and it doesn't cover the entire topic. I think, that maybe, the official translation is accurate and theirs is borked.

So, with that all said, to answer your question about whether its an accurate fan translation, I would say to go with the official translation for the reasons listed above. Namely that it sounds like an elementary level speakers translation, and it ignores how expressing ideas between languages actually work. If I find translations in any language that sound awkward, cumbersome, and lack fluency of expression, I approach it with scepticism. If I find translations that are trying to correct official translations by being more pure, and fall into awkward sounding expression or petty changes, I approach it with scepticism.

Also, what @Makoeyes987 pointed out is also true.
I appreciate everything you've said here. I actually know 3-4ish languages myself. I am most competent in English but I have a strong literary grasp of classical Arabic, and so I am very familiar with the challenges involved in translation. If I was to summarize my take, it would be to translate the heart and soul of speech first, and the mechanics second, though both are important to take into consideration.

Can you give me an idea if a Japanese speaker would be confused by Aerith's words here, and if they also got a very cryptic sense of the scene? The scene appears to be somewhat 4th-wall-breaking, where it's less about the characters and more about the audience. The characters at that moment should be more confused and overwhelmed, I feel, but that seems to take a backseat to the cryptic Aerith monologue, which translates to me as: "Hey, I'm telling you something that doesn't contradict with FF7 Lore cuz I'm mentioning the Cries of the Planet and stuff, but listen, we're now entering a Lifestream realm that will provide us freedom as characters and this story and its characters are going to change somewhat from here on out."
 

Fiz

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Eh?
My main hangup I suppose is the idea that Cloud obtaining the Buster Sword at any point is all that is needed to "set his ball rolling". Tifa being the first person Cloud interacts with when he becomes concious is what makes the Ex-SOLDIER. Cloud is already waking when Zack is walking away to meet the Shinra army. If Zack makes it to Midgar, then Cloud has been walking and talking with someone he doesn't feel the need to impress by acting like the badass SOLDIER First Class for hours already. The merc that Barret knows who will bomb a reactor without any need to context does not exist in this scenerio.

Cloud's delusions, the reasons for them and overcoming them was a big part of the original plot, and key to how Sephiroth is able to use the party to obtain the Black Materia and why he is able to make Cloud break down at the Northern Crater. "Zack asked to me to hang onto his sword for the day, thus I decided to take up ecoterrorism, no big deal." being what Cloud what do anyway really undercuts everything.


I don't think Cloud needs see anyone before Tifa even if Zack got him to Midgar and handed the buster sword there. Technically speaking, there is mixed canon about this anyway. Such as Zack telling Cloud he is his living legacy... Cloud is technically awake then.

So, I don't see how this would have to derail anything.



Yeah, I don't really know how to expect that relationship to go down whether in the sense of two extant timelines or two different versions (i.e. one obsolete and one current) of a single one. Either way, it sounds like an incoming clusterfuck, but I do think two distinct lines of time is going to prove cleaner than a lot of story space being inevitably given to repeated "This is what we remember; this is how it actually is now" scenarios.

Okay. I don't think it even needs lots of "this is how we remember it scenarios", maybe some but not a huge amount. It depends on how much they want to change the timeline. It plays into the theme of memory though.

I think Beagle and Stamp being two universes is generally asking for a clusterfuck more than a single altered timeline considering we have an altered timeline no matter what we look at it, so a multiverse is just complicating it.


For me, offset timelines (not just two) could provide an explanation for Aerith's premonitions and the new Chapter 18 Sephiroth. It's possible that information slips through timelines during a singularity. For example, when the Whispers howl, Aerith appears to see Zack's last stand in Terrier timeline (judging from the surprised look on her face immediately afterward). Now let's suppose everything in the original game and Compilation already happened in their own timeline before the events of Remake in the Beagle timeline (again, presuming the timelines are offset). If there was a singularity between that original game timeline and the Beagle timeline, and Remake Aerith was again at the center of it, then perhaps some information was passed to her? Flashes of the Sector 7 plate fall from the original game and so on. I think that'd be a neat way to explain her premonitions and tie everything together.

Earlier, people speculated that the Chapter 18 Sephiroth is "from the far future". I speculate it'll be more correct to say he's from the far future of the original game timeline and that he's crossed over to the present day in Remake's Beagle timeline.

Functionally, I suspect that multiple, offset timelines will be used to get the characters "up-to-speed" with events of the original game and Compilation, add suspense, and integrate Zack into the story, who will be at Midgar in the Terrier timeline at the same time the party travels the globe in the Beagle timeline (again, presuming the timelines are offset). Seems like a good way to reuse those Midgar assets!

This functions mechanically, sure. But, in this case we have one group in one timeline and then Zack off in his own little side story not interacting with anyone else. This to me is highly unlikely. I think Roundhouse nailed why.


This is such a headache of a topic. I'll put my own thoughts as simply as possible.

My first reaction to seeing the end of viir, before all the theorising and discussion, was that the scene was showing us alternate universes/lines. That's what I felt was being conveyed. At some point I got lost amidst all the debate over beagles and loops and time weirdness...but I like how some of you like Obsidian are deliberately now bringing this back to the basics and clearing stuff by looking at the main question here. What makes sense, story wise? Where are we likely headed based on this alone?

Story wise, I have to agree with those who argue that an alt timeline Zack just isn't interesting or natural enough...it feels forced and not worth bothering with. But then if he's indeed in the same timeline, how do you preserve the story of VII?

A) You don't.

B) You keep him completely separated from Cloud and co.

C) You find an attractive mix/balance of the two by, as people have said, using very precise timing of when to bring him in and when to leave him out. This is hard to do...it takes thoughtfulness and care, but it's just about possible for a smart writer.

I'm starting to think the third is the most interesting option and the one they are pursuing. Oh, neat to see the 'Zack meets Yuffie in the DLC' concept here -- it's something that came up on the server, and it sounds intriguing. Would they do something that huge for a dlc? I don't know, but it's possible.

^ This. I completely agree.

They have Yuffie who is being written into the story correctly, they're tapping into Compilation works, so aren't likely to ignore her CC connection. They also have Zack alive and a story to write for him going forward, they aren't likely to ignore his character connections, and CC backstory neither.

Zacks primary connections to other protagonists are Aerith, Cloud and Yuffie. All in CC.

Therefore, I would consider it highly unlikely that Zack and Yuffie won't be connected to Yuffie in the new content going forward, and highly unlikely that he will be unconnected to Aerith and Cloud too. It would be like they were taking a flamethrower to his own character and building something from scratch. Thats not a pattern they're taking with Remake, they're integrating stuff together.

As for Zack not joining the main group, or being someone you fight. Hes a major protagonist, and he's alive. I would say its a guarantee that he will be a playable character. If he is a playable character, he will need a group formation, Yuffie is prime candidate for his first companion for obvious reasons - all those CC connections. I also think its unlikely he won't be joining the main group. He is a major protagonist with important connections to 2 characters in that group, and a connection to a 3rd.

I think there are some things that are so likely we should assume them a guarantee, Zack connection to Yuffie is one, and him being a part of the main group is another. The question is what form that will take and how they get there.


The other thing, again I agree with Roundhouse on, is that Zack being isolated away in his own little side story makes no sense and isn't compelling. If we have the main group in Beagle and Zack in Terrier, then just what purpose does that serve? If its for Crisis Core 2, then it would be better as a spin off game.

If Zack is in his own universe, and nobody is crossing over, then I would say that its a guarantee that we have alternates of the main group in Terrier and he will be meeting them. This opens another can of worms entirely. What form will that take?

We have two versions of the story happening at once, switching between them? We have a proverbial Fate/Stay Night and Unlimited Blade Works happening at once? That doesn't sound at all practical to me. For one, it would be so difficult to follow whats happening that it wouldn't be desirable, and it would be a huge task for them to deliver. If they wanted to do that, you'd expect a future series of games, or an anime series or something. A separate media.

The next option is characters switching between timelines which can come in two forms. The Beagle has intersected Terrier and now Team Cloud is in Terrier, and the characters jumping between timelines as we go model.

If this is a multiverse, then I think the first of these two models is the most likely, followed by the second of these models. In other words, if Beagle and Terrier are distinct universes, then either Team Cloud is now in Terrier (Beagle is OG timeline and now we are forever in Terrier) or we have timeline skippers. I think those are the likely consequences of a them being universes rather than a single timeline.

This in itself raises a few problems. We have alternates of our characters. This seems to be like a purists worst nightmare. If you want this to reasonably close to OG with minimal overall change then having alternates of our characters in two timelines and switching about is not good news.

We will either be fighting ourselves, recruiting ourselves if anyone dies, having melodrama as we encounter ourselves, getting evil versions of ourselves and general derailment of the story for little exciting gain. We will be buggering about with alternate us stories at the expense of FFVII. I don't really see them doing that.

I guess they could have a mechanism where there can only be one of you in a timeline, so Team Cloud entering Terrier erases their alts from existance. Thats possible, but then we have what is functionally the same as a single timeline, or our characters going on the same adventure in two timelines at the same time.

Which leads me back to, Zack is isolated on his loansome in some side story that doesn't connect him to anything.


So, this raises the question of what this alternate timeline would even be for? To my mind, it doesn't make sense.




I don't know about other people... but I know I thought this as soon as I saw Yuffie and Deepground being thrown together in the same DLC.

Yuffie flat out can't stand up to a Tsivet. The regular DG guys, sure... I can buy that. But Weiss? No way. She isn't even that good in DoC, and that's three years later. So there's a power imbalance there that has to be addressed. Yuffie has to bump into someone that can take on the Tsivets without a lot of problems... and the Tisvets are SOLDIER 1st Class level at least, if not more powerful.

I also knew from Crisis Core that Yuffie has a history of e-mailing Zack to get her out of trouble... including several memorable texts from Yuffie being in Midgar. And one in particular where she had... somehow gotten stuck in the interior of the Plate and was texting Zack to come get her... Deepground is... in the same vein as that. So I could see her texting Zack just to see if he would pick up... At the very least, it's a spot to put in a fun easter egg for everyone who remembers Crisis Core (and Remake loves Compilation Easter Eggs).

And that's not even taking the ending of Remake itself into account. If you do think everything is going on in the same timeline, Zack needs to be busy with something while the events of Remake are going on so he doesn't run into Cloud and Aerith and the rest of AVALANCHE. Having to deal with Deepground and keep Yuffie out of trouble would keep him plenty busy.

I might also want to see a Zack vs Weiss fight happen... and give Zack and Genesis a chance to touch base after Banora...

Also agreed. I think its the most obvious and natural progression. Team Cloud with Aerith, Tifa, Barret and Red and Team Zack with Yuffie and others.


The other thing I'll raise about multiverses, a thing I would discard. This isn't aimed at anyone here or anything, but a general theme I have noticed while looking at timeline theories and people advocating that these are two timelines.

I would call it the "trashcan timeline theory", this is where we have a main timeline (Beagle) and a second timeline (Terrier). The purpose of these timelines is either to place all the changes and edgy stuff into Terrier where it can't affect the pure Beagle and then wipe that timeline out of existance; or nominal changes in either, which merge to one pure timeline.

First, I think this is unlikely due to the amount of work it would be to have two versions of the story running in parallel, and second because I presume the creators consider whatever new stuff they create or whatever changes they make to be good. I think any theory thats designed to keep changes out of the way is trying to solve a fan problem rather than trying to solve Remakes mysteries.

For example, they've got Zack alive. I would assume the creators think that Zack being alive is good, and any writing and events for him going forward will be good, and any change to the OG story he causes, will also be good and bring qualitative value to the story.

Of course, it might prove to be a dire mess and a huge mistake, but thats the nature of the beast. I don't think they're going to be creating stuff they don't think is worthy of the canon. Therefore anything that functionally works to put stuff in a proverbial trashcan is, IMHO, extremely unlikely.
 

Fiz

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Eh?
I appreciate everything you've said here. I actually know 3-4ish languages myself. I am most competent in English but I have a strong literary grasp of classical Arabic, and so I am very familiar with the challenges involved in translation. If I was to summarize my take, it would be to translate the heart and soul of speech first, and the mechanics second, though both are important to take into consideration.

BIB: Exactly, thats precisely where I'm coming from and my overall point was that this is how languages work and how we deal with them.


Can you give me an idea if a Japanese speaker would be confused by Aerith's words here, and if they also got a very cryptic sense of the scene? The scene appears to be somewhat 4th-wall-breaking, where it's less about the characters and more about the audience. The characters at that moment should be more confused and overwhelmed, I feel, but that seems to take a backseat to the cryptic Aerith monologue, which translates to me as: "Hey, I'm telling you something that doesn't contradict with FF7 Lore cuz I'm mentioning the Cries of the Planet and stuff, but listen, we're now entering a Lifestream realm that will provide us freedom as characters and this story and its characters are going to change somewhat from here on out."

Yes, its 4th wall breaking just like it was for us. Japanese players were talking about the meta narrative too. So that was there.

As for how cryptic it was, I don't know because I wasn't taken by surprise by anything much. I figured out what was going on very quickly. Like, I knew what the Whispers were in Aeriths chuch and so on. I kinda followed it quite easily and don't think most of it is that cryptic in the first place.


To answer the question on how it sounds... my comprehension is not consistent. Sometimes its clear, sometimes vague, and sometimes oblivious. With more poetic or conceptual language its much, much harder to understand clearly. My reading and writing is at a much higher level than my speaking and listening, so I tend to prefer subtitles so that I can read along and look weird stuff up. Generally, it sounds like they're not saying much different and Japanese people are more inclined to recognise higher context meanings because thats how their language works.

I don't find what shes saying in Japanese cryptic, from what I've seen online I don't think Japanese were any different to us really. Some getting it, some confused. But, I don't follow gamers online much. Most of my own communication with Japanese people, and content I follow, is typically about food and travel. While most people are like "I learned Japanese for anime" or "I learned Japanese for games"... I learned Japanese to understand cooking videos on YouTube.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
@Fiz
So, funny thing. I've been approaching the discussion largely with the expectation that Nomura, et. al. -- if not Square as a company -- will want the remake to end in such a way that Advent Children (Complete) as it exists today can still be viably viewed as a follow-up to its events. Makes the bean counters happy because they can continue to market AC as the sequel to FFVII (either one), and it makes the developers happy because ... well, they really like Advent Children and are obviously super proud of it.

They've made no secret of the fact AC is such an influence on the development of the remake. It's easily the most influential title after the original game, and probably the more influential of the two when it comes to overall design sensibilities. Despite that they will probably let things get a little crazy on the way, especially now that EC is going to be a thing, I fully expect they will ultimately want to preserve and celebrate the film, as well as the main beats of the original game's story that led into it.

Addendum: Maybe this is proving your Trashcan Timeline theory about some of us a little bit, but if I had to make a guess about what would be done with an alternate timeline where Zack (and maybe Aerith) live? It's precisely that: it becomes a dumpster fire. :monster:

This would also solve your concerns about "having two versions of the story running in parallel." Simply put, there may not be.

One other thing:
I guess they could have a mechanism where there can only be one of you in a timeline, so Team Cloud entering Terrier erases their alts from existance. Thats possible, but then we have what is functionally the same as a single timeline, or our characters going on the same adventure in two timelines at the same time.
Isn't the bit in bold pretty much what you're proposing anyhow with Team Zack and Team Cloud?
 

OWA-2

Pro Adventurer
I really hope Square-Enix is going with a time-loop, instead of alternate timelines... Because a time-loop would be much easier to implement in the lore of the series. A cicle of souls/memories, could also be a cicle of time. I mean, connecting time with memories is not something new in FF... FFIX did that.
But alternate realities? In FFVII?? No please.
 

Fiz

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Eh?
@Fiz
So, funny thing. I've been approaching the discussion largely with the expectation that Nomura, et. al. -- if not Square as a company -- will want the remake to end in such a way that Advent Children (Complete) as it exists today can still be viably viewed as a follow-up to its events. Makes the bean counters happy because they can continue to market AC as the sequel to FFVII (either one), and it makes the developers happy because ... well, they really like Advent Children and are obviously super proud of it.

They've made no secret of the fact AC is such an influence on the development of the remake. It's easily the most influential title after the original game, and probably the more influential of the two when it comes to overall design sensibilities. Despite that they will probably let things get a little crazy on the way, especially now that EC is going to be a thing, I fully expect they will ultimately want to preserve and celebrate the film, as well as the main beats of the original game's story that led into it.

Maybe, it makes sense from a marketing perspective for sure. If they want to push AC to a new generation. But, I still feel like the setup of Remake will at the very least cause a time loop if something doesn't remove Sephiroth from the picture completely. My feeling is that Remake will close the story of FFVII not open it.





Addendum: Maybe this is proving your Trashcan Timeline theory about some of us a little bit, but if I had to make a guess about what would be done with an alternate timeline where Zack (and maybe Aerith) live? It's precisely that: it becomes a dumpster fire. :monster:

TBH, I wasn't really directing that to anyone here. To clarify, a trashcan timeline isn't one where the Remake ends with character fates all matching OG's. A trashcan timeline is where you have two timelines, one pure and one full of changes for burning later.

Or put another way, OG in one, fan service fest in another. Or pure OG in one, dumping ground of ideas in another. That kind of thing.

An altered sequence of events through Remake that arrives at the same conclusion isn't a trash can, because thats a tangible narrative. Specifically on Zack and Aerith, I imagine Zack will probably die along with Biggs, Wedge and Jessie, but Aerith will survive. But her survival itself will likely be subverted in some way at the end.

If my inclinations about her and Sephiroth are correct, I'd flip a coin over whether she lives her life in the world of the living, but I feel quite confident she will be sticking around through the duration of the story.


This would also solve your concerns about "having two versions of the story running in parallel." Simply put, there may not be.

But even if there was an OG pure timeline and a Zack+Aerith live timeline, whether it becomes a dumpster fire or not, we are still in a position where we are basically playing two stories at once shifting back and forth.

Imagine Fate Stay Night and Unlimited Blade Works, but instead of them being their own thing, we're switching back and forth between them as we go. Whether one gets dumpster fired or not, it would be a nightmare to play through in terms of keeping track and a huge amount of work. It would be better served as its own thing. So I don't think thats a realistic proposition.

Part of me is down for a "different events play out in different universe" model similar to Fate if they wanted to do that, I'd give that a chance. But surely that would be as their own media.



One other thing:

Isn't the bit in bold pretty much what you're proposing anyhow with Team Zack and Team Cloud?

No, because in my Team Cloud + Team Zack theory their stories are integrated and exist in the same space, so actions are directly influencing each other and forming a cohesive story. It's not just a fan service thing in its own self contained little timeline, its serving a purpose.

I guess a way of looking at my concern about multiverses where Zacks side is a self contained side story, is that its basically a fan service spin off and the whole twist to this is an elaborate ploy to add some fan service. When it comes to the narrative integrity of Remake it would actually be quite damaging, and would also demonstrate that they don't have confidence in their own ideas.


I really hope Square-Enix is going with a time-loop, instead of alternate timelines... Because a time-loop would be much easier to implement in the lore of the series. A cicle of souls/memories, could also be a cicle of time. I mean, connecting time with memories is not something new in FF... FFIX did that.
But alternate realities? In FFVII?? No please.

I'm in agreement with this. I don't think a "dumpster fire" timeline is a realistic thing, instead, if it is a multiverse I suspect its going to start falling into the timeline hopping, alternate selves, category of multiverse. If its the "they've all gone from Beagle to Terrier" type, then it all seems a bit redundant to have two timelines if they're all in a timeline together anyway.
 
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Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
They've made no secret of the fact AC is such an influence on the development of the remake. It's easily the most influential title after the original game, and probably the more influential of the two when it comes to overall design sensibilities
I've been watching full Crisis Core playthroughs for the last few days for.. reasons... and I have to say... ACC might be the biggest influence when it comes to the way combat looks and Sephrioth's character...

But when it comes to how the overall world feels and the way the *narrative* feels... Remake feels like an extension of the world of Crisis Core more than anything else. There's so many times in CC where I see things that people mentioned in Remake like it was a new thing that had been added to the world of FF7... but it wasn't. Crisis Core brought up the concept ten years ago. Remake is just taking what was introduced in Crisis Core and extending that new stuff into the time-period of the OG.

A lot of that stuff is in NPC dialogue, which is often skipped in playthroughs of CC, but a lot of it is the "main story" as well. People just... really don't like what Crisis Core did with the FF7 world and like to ignore a lot of the new stuff it revealed. And a lot of those changes explain a lot of the stuff we seen in Remake that people are... not sure about (Wutai still being a legit threat for one).

The thing with ACC is that the story is very straight forward. It's about Cloud getting over his depression/trauma after the OG. Crisis Core's story is... a weird complicated mess of Shinra doing stuff and Jenova doing stuff and it all coming together to screw people over. Remake is... similar. Nomura says he got the idea that would become Remake while working on Crisis Core and... it really shows if you bother looking at what Crisis Core added to the Compilation. Remake feels like it's connected with Crisis Core in a way it's not connected to any other Compilation title.

Of course, YMMV on how good Crisis Core actually was at preserving the narrative themes of the OG... so I can see... a lot of people hoping Remake is more like ACC rather than Crisis Core based just on that. To say Crisis Core's narrative quality is... controversial... in certain parts of the fandom is... not far from the truth.
 

Fiz

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Eh?
I've been watching full Crisis Core playthroughs for the last few days for.. reasons... and I have to say... ACC might be the biggest influence when it comes to the way combat looks and Sephrioth's character...

But when it comes to how the overall world feels and the way the *narrative* feels... Remake feels like an extension of the world of Crisis Core more than anything else. There's so many times in CC where I see things that people mentioned in Remake like it was a new thing that had been added to the world of FF7... but it wasn't. Crisis Core brought up the concept ten years ago. Remake is just taking what was introduced in Crisis Core and extending that new stuff into the time-period of the OG.

A lot of that stuff is in NPC dialogue, which is often skipped in playthroughs of CC, but a lot of it is the "main story" as well. People just... really don't like what Crisis Core did with the FF7 world and like to ignore a lot of the new stuff it revealed. And a lot of those changes explain a lot of the stuff we seen in Remake that people are... not sure about (Wutai still being a legit threat for one).

The thing with ACC is that the story is very straight forward. It's about Cloud getting over his depression/trauma after the OG. Crisis Core's story is... a weird complicated mess of Shinra doing stuff and Jenova doing stuff and it all coming together to screw people over. Remake is... similar. Nomura says he got the idea that would become Remake while working on Crisis Core and... it really shows if you bother looking at what Crisis Core added to the Compilation. Remake feels like it's connected with Crisis Core in a way it's not connected to any other Compilation title.

Of course, YMMV on how good Crisis Core actually was at preserving the narrative themes of the OG... so I can see... a lot of people hoping Remake is more like ACC rather than Crisis Core based just on that. To say Crisis Core's narrative quality is... controversial... in certain parts of the fandom is... not far from the truth.

I think part of the issue with CC was the "missions" and yeah, narrative quality was mixed, and some missed opportunities. I enjoyed it overall though, of all the Compilation works it was probably my favourite. I have a soft spot for it. I agree that you can feel its influences in Remake.

However, it cemented my belief that SE are best not focusing too hard on romance, its not their strongest point. I stopped playing it after Zack met Aerith in the church the 2nd time for about 6 months because I didn't feel like more of that.
 

Roger

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Minato
I don't think Cloud needs see anyone before Tifa even if Zack got him to Midgar and handed the buster sword there. Technically speaking, there is mixed canon about this anyway. Such as Zack telling Cloud he is his living legacy... Cloud is technically awake then.

I find it pretty disingenious to aquate Cloud technically being awake for Zack's final words to a scenerio where Zack and Cloud walked the rest of the way to Midgar together, found a place to stay for the day, discussed their plans and then for Cloud to decide to go out, meet Tifa and then forget all about Zack anyway.

Cloud and Zack don't really have a conversation before he dies, Zack just sees Cloud parroting his words and then thrust the Buster Sword in his hands. He can't do more for Cloud as he's about to be dead. That's changed now. And why would Cloud meet Tifa at all now? Cloud wasn't aiming to go to the train station nor does Tifa inspect the rejects there every hour of every day. He didn't have an itinerary beyond get to Midgar. Cloud and Zack getting to Midgar and Zack not meeting Tifa by all reasonable logic means Cloud is gonna miss that encounter as well. Yet we take for granted that Cloud ends up in front of Tifa anyway, sans Zack yet somehow not sans the Buster Sword?

For example, they've got Zack alive. I would assume the creators think that Zack being alive is good, and any writing and events for him going forward will be good, and any change to the OG story he causes, will also be good and bring qualitative value to the story.

Cloud is alone when Tifa finds him because Zack is dead. Cloud has the Buster Sword because Zack gave it too him on his death bed. Either the creators acknowledge this or they do not in fact think any change that Zack not dying makes to the OG would be good for the Remake.
 

Fiz

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Eh?
I find it pretty disingenious to aquate Cloud technically being awake for Zack's final words to a scenerio where Zack and Cloud walked the rest of the way to Midgar together, found a place to stay for the day, discussed their plans and then for Cloud to decide to go out, meet Tifa and then forget all about Zack anyway.

I really wasn't thinking anything along those lines though. Cloud isn't exactly in a good state in that closing scene in Remake so I think its entirely plusible for Cloud to be on similar terms on arriving at Midgar. They're what, an hour or twos walk away. I don't think Cloud was about to spring to life in that time.


Cloud and Zack don't really have a conversation before he dies, Zack just sees Cloud parroting his words and then thrust the Buster Sword in his hands. He can't do more for Cloud as he's about to be dead. That's changed now. And why would Cloud meet Tifa at all now? Cloud wasn't aiming to go to the train station nor does Tifa inspect the rejects there every hour of every day. He didn't have an itinerary beyond get to Midgar. Cloud and Zack getting to Midgar and Zack not meeting Tifa by all reasonable logic means Cloud is gonna miss that encounter as well. Yet we take for granted that Cloud ends up in front of Tifa anyway, sans Zack yet somehow not sans the Buster Sword?



Cloud is alone when Tifa finds him because Zack is dead. Cloud has the Buster Sword because Zack gave it too him on his death bed. Either the creators acknowledge this or they do not in fact think any change that Zack not dying makes to the OG would be good for the Remake.

Okay, but I don't think this is such a huge thing to get around convincingly and I certainly don't think it's something that would derail the plot. Cloud can still get to Midgar, still inherit the Buster Sword from Zack, and still meet Tifa at the station. Obviously the details of how Cloud (with Buster Sword) gets to the station for Tifa to meet him would change, but they don't have to be some huge drastic changes to get there. Likely more stuff to do with Zacks own story.

It could even be something as simple as Zack going "underground", run in with Deepground, any manner of things could have Cloud inheriting the sword and finding his way to the station.
 

cold_spirit

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Alex T
If Zack is in his own universe, and nobody is crossing over, then I would say that its a guarantee that we have alternates of the main group in Terrier and he will be meeting them. This opens another can of worms entirely. What form will that take?

So, in my mind, it's not a guarantee that Zack will meet alternates of the main cast in Terrier. They'll exist, sure, but I imagine Nojima will want to avoid them for all the reasons you listed. Their character drama will exist in Beagle and it's not economically feasible to tell a whole new story with them at the same time. Personally, I don't think Zack and Yuffie meeting is a guarantee either, I feel like we're inflating her role in Crisis Core a bit, but we'll see.

However, I absolutely agree that Cloud and Aerith will be involved in Zack's new story. Cloud is still suffering from mako poisoning in Terrier, so it'd be easy to tell him apart from his Beagle counterpart. As for Aerith, Zack may check up on her, but decide it's best to keep his distance for her safety. This scenario would make a much more manageable story. We'd have the main cast in Beagle and Zack with a mako poisoned Cloud in Terrier.

Now, what they plan to do with this? Hmmm, personally I have a lot of ideas. I don't think it'll be a "trashcan" timeline to put fan service. Quite the opposite actually. Nojima just doesn't strike me as the kind of writer who would do that. Even AC, which is often criticized for being fan service, stars a depressed Cloud during a pandemic. Here's one idea I have for the Terrier timeline that I like to kick around. The mako poisoned Cloud will still feel Sephiroth's call for reunion. If he starts traveling to the Northern Crater, Zack will surely accompany him. Would Zack be able to defeat Sephiroth? Probably not. Will nothing stop Sephiroth from absorbing the Lifestream? If he controls the Lifestream in one timeline, and the Lifestream has a relationship with time as shown by the Whispers, then does Sephiroth control the Lifestream in all timelines? Maybe this is the end goal of Chapter 18 Sephiroth?

These are just my dumb thoughts, but I wanted to share them as an example for how they can use the Terrier timeline for more than just fan service.
 
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The Twilight Mexican

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AKA
TresDias
Yeah, fan service is absolutely not the direction I see for Terrier Timeline. More like we'll be calling it the Monkey's Paw Timeline before long. :monster:

But even if there was an OG pure timeline and a Zack+Aerith live timeline, whether it becomes a dumpster fire or not, we are still in a position where we are basically playing two stories at once shifting back and forth.

Imagine Fate Stay Night and Unlimited Blade Works, but instead of them being their own thing, we're switching back and forth between them as we go. Whether one gets dumpster fired or not, it would be a nightmare to play through in terms of keeping track and a huge amount of work. It would be better served as its own thing. So I don't think thats a realistic proposition.

Part of me is down for a "different events play out in different universe" model similar to Fate if they wanted to do that, I'd give that a chance. But surely that would be as their own media.
Well, I wasn't really picturing playing both. Just playing the one and learning the results of the other.
 

a_apple 2.0

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a_apple
I believe there is no second timeline or that we will get a AU sidestory with Zack in another installment, look at that famitsu interview with Nomura, in it he tells us that there won't be any new dlcs and that even the Yuffie dlc wasn't really planned before hand, since their main focus is solely part II. Which tells me that the chances for another game/ dlc are pretty low, so whatever the ending means will probably be handled in part two.
 
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Roundhouse

Pro Adventurer
I've also been thinking that maybe we should have paid more attention to Crisis Core as an influence for remake, because Crisis Core is how Zack got so popular in the first place, I'm assuming. I liked him in the OG, but he was barely there, and had a small, sad ending scene. Without CC, would the SE team have bothered with this whole new confusing twist? Maybe CC 'changed things...forever', as the Joker might say. After that Zack became a major part of the VII story, and now this has fed into the remake -- the OG but imbued with Crisis Core?
 

a_apple 2.0

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a_apple
I've also been thinking that maybe we should have paid more attention to Crisis Core as an influence for remake, because Crisis Core is how Zack got so popular in the first place, I'm assuming. I liked him in the OG, but he was barely there, and had a small, sad ending scene. Without CC, would the SE team have bothered with this whole new confusing twist? Maybe CC 'changed things...forever', as the Joker might say. After that Zack became a major part of the VII story, and now this has fed into the remake -- the OG but imbued with Crisis Core?
to be honest for me the remake is literally Crisis Core: part II, like they seamlessly flow together, while the original is almost it's own thing at this point
 
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cold_spirit

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Alex T
to be honest for me the remake is literally Crisis Core: part II, like they seemingly flow together

The post-credit scene in Crisis Core does end with "To be continued in Final Fantasy VII". Back in 2007 that clearly meant the OG, but yeah, it flows better with Remake.

CC is more impactful with knowledge of FFVII, and Remake's ending is more impactful with knowledge of CC. The"Nojima" series, basically OG -> AC -> CC -> Remake, subtlety rewards players who have kept up-to-date with the games.
 
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Obsidian Fire

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Without CC, would the SE team have bothered with this whole new confusing twist? Maybe CC 'changed things...forever', as the Joker might say. After that Zack became a major part of the VII story, and now this has fed into the remake -- the OG but imbued with Crisis Core?
One of the things I really wonder after watching CC since Remake came out is if Remake is the product of NKN throwing ideas back and forth between them about how the OG would have worked out if Zack didn't die at the end of CC. And then they figured out how they could *reasonably* explain Zack being around for events he was clearly dead for so they could make a game out of it.

Goodness knows Nomura (at least) has been playing around with time-travel in Kindom Hearts between the time of CC and the time of Remake... so... it wouldn't be like such a concept wasn't something he hasn't been playing around with recently...

And yeah, ditto to everyone saying Remake is the squeal to Crisis Core or Crisis Core Part 2.
 
All these complications to the original story, this drip drip of hints and what may be misinformation and misdirection, are making me lose interest in the Remake. I don't actually care how they're going to resolve this mysterious anomaly. I am beginning to feel that subsequent installments will be more of the same: pretentious, overcomplicated twaddle that imagines it's deep.
 

Cae Lumis

Lv. 25 Adventurer
I've also been thinking that maybe we should have paid more attention to Crisis Core as an influence for remake, because Crisis Core is how Zack got so popular in the first place, I'm assuming. I liked him in the OG, but he was barely there, and had a small, sad ending scene. Without CC, would the SE team have bothered with this whole new confusing twist? Maybe CC 'changed things...forever', as the Joker might say. After that Zack became a major part of the VII story, and now this has fed into the remake -- the OG but imbued with Crisis Core?

If one does their research, the push to make Zack more important to the narrative of FFVII happened a bit earlier than Crisis Core. For example, the Original Trading Arts set for FFVII Figure Set included a secret figure of Zack when the entire figure series was focused on the main characters. You'd think characters such as... say the rest of the main party would have been the secret figure instead. This is followed by Zack's appearance in Ehrgeiz as a playable character, which... while yes he's basically a ditto fighter for Cloud, one would think there would be a few characters ahead of him who would be more.... "prominent"... than him to be considered for Ehrgeiz. This would culminate with his appearances in Advent Children & Last Order.

Something worth keeping in mind are these quotes:

In the original scenario, Zack didn’t exist
– Mr. Kitase, which scene do you find most striking even now?
Kitase:
...I didn’t know until we were in the latter stages of development that Cloud’s memories were Zack’s. First of all, when I originally checked the scenario, the character of Zack didn’t exist. Zack was a character who came up as Nojima was building up the mysteries.... Nojima: But with Zack, I didn’t simply bring him in just because it was needed for solving the mysteries. When I joined the development team, the concept of Aerith seeing her first love again in Cloud was already there, so I brought him in to link that with solving the mysteries. Nomura: ...When I got the request for the illustration of Zack we were already near the end of development, so when you look at it now it’s not even coloured, and I can’t really deny that it feels like quite a sudden request....

– Had you thought about the truth of the mysteries regarding Cloud and Zack from the very beginning?
Nojima:
No, I thought of it as I went on with my work. So at the beginning there wasn’t much foreshadowing....

Nojima: But with Zack, I didn’t simply bring him in just because it was needed for solving the mysteries. When I joined the development team, the concept of Aerith seeing her first love again in Cloud was already there, so I brought him in to link that with solving the mysteries.

From the very beginning, Zack was seen as an important character, despite his lateness in the plot.
 

cold_spirit

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Alex T
Goodness knows Nomura (at least) has been playing around with time-travel in Kindom Hearts between the time of CC and the time of Remake... so... it wouldn't be like such a concept wasn't something he hasn't been playing around with recently...

And don't forget Kitase, producer of the XIII trilogy (specifically XIII-2) and director of FFVIII. Time mechanics are basically his M.O. at this point.
 

Roger

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Minato
I really wasn't thinking anything along those lines though. Cloud isn't exactly in a good state in that closing scene in Remake so I think its entirely plusible for Cloud to be on similar terms on arriving at Midgar. They're what, an hour or twos walk away. I don't think Cloud was about to spring to life in that time.
In the event of Zack's death, Cloud walks to Midgar dragging a massive sword does he not. In absence of Zack's death Cloud isn't going to conveniently stay unresponsive until he leaves his presence.

Okay, but I don't think this is such a huge thing to get around convincingly and I certainly don't think it's something that would derail the plot. Cloud can still get to Midgar, still inherit the Buster Sword from Zack,

You really have to explain that to me, how is Cloud inheriting the Buster Sword from Zack if Zack isn't done himself? Zack never solved any other problem with giving the Buster Sword to someone else other then his own impending death. I really don't understand how someone could fail to see how Zack himself being alive would eliminate his need for a living legacy.

and still meet Tifa at the station. Obviously the details of how Cloud (with Buster Sword) gets to the station for Tifa to meet him would change, but they don't have to be some huge drastic changes to get there. Likely more stuff to do with Zacks own story.

Sheer random chance brought Cloud to the train station the first time. Part 1 ends with a declaration that they've destroyed destiny and are now moving ahead into an unknown future. Cloud and Buster Sword being unable to change their trajectory from Zack's death to the train station despite Zack coming to Midgar with them, who definitely wasn't putting them on this journey to lie around the train station when they get to Midgar until something happened tells me that the hand of destiny is still guiding Cloud's hand down an preordained path.
 

KindOfBlue

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Blue
One of the advantages of the remake having its own continuity is that they can tell a version of the OG story that is aware of the Compilation unlike the OG itself where at the time, that was all that existed. The devs have been pretty open about incorporating elements of the Compilation and while I don’t think they’ll be remaking the entire Compilation, they can pick and choose whatever they want to mess around with or play straight without it making their previous stories obsolete. If they decide to lead towards an ending that changes or prevents certain things about AC in the remake’s continuity (namely Sephiroth, geostigma, three remnants, Cloud’s depression) but they keep other elements of it intact (Cloud and Tifa with Denzel and Marlene, Strife Delivery Service, new Seventh Heaven), they can still market AC as the follow-up to the OG but give the remake a conclusion that could reasonably be considered what would probably happen in the OG’s continuity post-AC anyways. Conversely, I think straight up remaking AC would be pretty redundant, interesting, but redundant.
 

Roundhouse

Pro Adventurer
I'm confused, is the issue that Cloud shouldn't have the sword because Zack would never give it away without the whole sacrifice scene/legacy stuff? Whatever the issue is, I think even we could come up with ideas for how to creatively get around this, let alone the devs.
 

KindOfBlue

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Blue
I'm confused, is the issue that Cloud shouldn't have the sword because Zack would never give it away without the whole sacrifice scene/legacy stuff? Whatever the issue is, I think even we could come up with ideas for how to creatively get around this, let alone the devs.
Cloud loses his memories anyways so I figured Zack could get captured and leave his sword behind
 
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