Relationship between Remake and the original? (split from the "How many parts?" thread)

[Roger]

I'm confused, is the issue that Cloud shouldn't have the sword because Zack would never give it away without the whole sacrifice scene/legacy stuff? Whatever the issue is, I think even we could come up with ideas for how to creatively get around this, let alone the devs.

That's one of the problems but why would we or the devs find a way around this? Zack not dying is a change, it should result in more changes down the line. Zack not doing the things he did on his deathbed because it was his deathbed seems the right place to start. Why bring Zack back if not to do this?

 

[KindOfBlue]

That's one of the problems but why would we or the devs find a way around this? Zack not dying is a change, it should result in more changes down the line. Zack not doing the things he did on his deathbed because it was his deathbed seems the right place to start. Why bring Zack back if not to do this?

I think the assumption is that Cloud still needs to end up with his sword somehow

 

[Roundhouse]

I'm lost, but that's my fault, to be fair -- I need to go back and read more posts rather than jumping into the middle of the debate without context. I assumed that Roger was arguing for things to be closer to the OG rather than a new direction, and that the 'sword' was part of the argument (eg, how can Cloud have the sword if Zack is alive?).

 

[Smoothie King]

Late to the party but a quick word about the timeline stuff. If Jessie is still alive in this timeline, how is that possible? She already died. Zack already died. Yeah, fate isn't set in stone anymore moving forward, but how does defeating the Whispers retroactively change what happened in the past? That's a bridge too far for me and doesn't make any sense.

I guess the larger point would be that if Jessie is alive, it can't be a result of fate being defeated. I don't think I can be convinced of that, logically. She just got lucky (really really really lucky).

Edit: by that logic, wouldn't Aerith suddenly die? If defeating Fate changes everything, why doesn't Aerith poof out of existence?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Yeah, fate isn't set in stone anymore moving forward, but how does defeating the Whispers retroactively change what happened in the past? That's a bridge too far for me and doesn't make any sense.

None of us know mechanically how anything works. Just that... things happened after Fate/Destiny was defeated. How and why they happened is currently up in the air. The clearest answer at the moment is "none on knows". We're all just comparing what we have seen happen to other such time-travel, dimenition-travel storylines and mechanics elsewhere.

And that is along with a heaping dose of "what kind of stories and narrative arcs do Nomura, Kitase and Nojima like to write"? And.. time-travel stories that play around with what "fate/destiny" is are definetly concepts they like playing with. See FF8 (all three of them), FFXIII-2 (Kitase), and the recent Kingdom Hearts games (Nomura). All of which have a varriety of different time-travel models they've used in the past.

Edit: by that logic, wouldn't Aerith suddenly die? If defeating Fate changes everything, why doesn't Aerith poof out of existence?

Because she hasn't died yet in Remake. Her death is a future event that hasn't happened yet.

Zack and Jessie at least died in the past, before Whisper Harbringer was killed. So them coming "back to life" is very weird. By the same token, it's also weird that Barret didn't die once Fate/Destiny was defeated as the Whispers were what kept him alive this time around.

Barret's death being "reversed" is also a good example of the Whispers playing around with reality on a fundamental level in general. If they can somehow reverse Barret's death, then they can "mechanically" reverse other deaths as well. They just don't have a good reason to do that... since Barret was "fated" to live while Zack wasn't. Now with Fate gone... you've got some beings who can play around with reality to the point of bringing back dead people without as hard a limit on who they can "bring back"...

However, most time-travel stuff that changes the "present" is... very arbitrary with what gets changed. I think it's less that killing Fate/Destiny means "everything changes" and more "things *can* change if we really want them to". The things that get changed will be the things NKN *want* to change (to tell the narrative they want to tell)... not everything that could possibly change.

 

[OWA-2]

By the same token, it's also weird that Barret didn't die once Fate/Destiny was defeated as the Whispers were what kept him alive this time around.

Not really. Think of it as a butterfly effect. Every moment in the history of Gaia that was affected by the Whispers, is now unaffected by them. These moments changed. And these changes caused more changes, that caused more changes, that caused more... So now, for all we know, Barret could be in another place when Sephiroth kilked Shinra. Or when Sephiroth attacked him, Cloud blocked him. Or many other possibilities.

 

[Smoothie King]

None of us know mechanically how anything works. Just that... things happened after Fate/Destiny was defeated. How and why they happened is currently up in the air. The clearest answer at the moment is "none on knows". We're all just comparing what we have seen happen to other such time-travel, dimenition-travel storylines and mechanics elsewhere.

And that is along with a heaping dose of "what kind of stories and narrative arcs do Nomura, Kitase and Nojima like to write"? And.. time-travel stories that play around with what "fate/destiny" is are definetly concepts they like playing with. See FF8 (all three of them), FFXIII-2 (Kitase), and the recent Kingdom Hearts games (Nomura). All of which have a varriety of different time-travel models they've used in the past.Because she hasn't died yet in Remake. Her death is a future event that hasn't happened yet.

Zack and Jessie at least died in the past, before Whisper Harbringer was killed. So them coming "back to life" is very weird. By the same token, it's also weird that Barret didn't die once Fate/Destiny was defeated as the Whispers were what kept him alive this time around.

Barret's death being "reversed" is also a good example of the Whispers playing around with reality on a fundamental level in general. If they can somehow reverse Barret's death, then they can "mechanically" reverse other deaths as well. They just don't have a good reason to do that... since Barret was "fated" to live while Zack wasn't. Now with Fate gone... you've got some beings who can play around with reality to the point of bringing back dead people without as hard a limit on who they can "bring back"...

However, most time-travel stuff that changes the "present" is... very arbitrary with what gets changed. I think it's less that killing Fate/Destiny means "everything changes" and more "things *can* change if we really want them to". The things that get changed will be the things NKN *want* to change (to tell the narrative they want to tell)... not everything that could possibly change.

I'm glad you brought up Barrett. That's one thing I really wish they didn't do in the Remake. I hated that scene. We didn't need that to understand what the Whispers were.

 

[LNK]

I'm glad you brought up Barrett. That's one thing I really wish they didn't do in the Remake. I hated that scene. We didn't need that to understand what the Whispers were.

I actually didn't mind the Barret scene. Besides, I already guessed what the whispers were long before that

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Various Time-Travel Tropes that *could* be in effect... I am not responsible for the wiki walks that might ensue from these... Really, the entire Time Travel Tropes list is a good thing to overview...

Delayed Ripple Effect - Changes made to the Past take time to "catch up" to the Present.

Ripple Effect-Proof Memory - The people responsible for changing the Past remember what happened "first time around", even though that wouldn't have happened to them in the Present.

Ripple Effect Indicator - An object from the Present/Future that reflects the changes made by changing the Past.

Caught in the Ripple - Something new exists (between installments/episodes) that everyone in-universe treats as having always been the way things were in previous installments/episodes.

Tricked Out Time - Faking a stable time loop by changing the Past in such a way that it *looks* like the original event occurred, when instead, something else happened.

Close-Enough Timeline - The Past gets changed, but it's close enough to what happened the first time, no one bothers changing it.

In Spite of a Nail - The Past gets changed, but the change gets "smoothed out" so the new changes don't have an effect on the Present.

--------------------------------------

Delayed Ripple Effect is *probably* what is going on after the Singularity happens. With a hefty dose off Ripple Effect-Proof Memory on the side of AVALANCHE. They conveniently end up not being in Midgar where whatever changes could have been made when Zack didn't die would probably be a lot more obvious.

Stamp is the obvious Ripple Effect Indicator. There are a few others sprinkled around earlier that hint at time *already* being changed before the game even starts. But everyone is Caught in the Ripple and isn't noticing them (yet).

Tricked Out Time is probably what is going on with the Singularity and Zack not dying... but Tifa still finding Cloud (and the Buster Sword) like she did in the OG. It's close enough to the OG that the major differences aren't obvious (yet).

Close-Enough Timeline is what Aerith is more than likely aiming for. Sephrioth is aiming for Make Wrong What Once Went Right.

In Spite of a Nail is what it seems most *players* are hoping Part 2 will be...

 

[cold_spirit]

Great research @Obsidian Fire.

For me, Stamp being a ripple effect indicator during the ending is a bit odd considering Zack surviving is right there. Why double up on ripple effect indicators?

At this point does the argument for a singular timeline state that Stamp's differing design is meant to indicate that more changes happened to the past beyond Zack's last stand? That perhaps the Singularity was connected to other points in time and that those points were also consequently changed? If so, why weren't we shown those other points? We see two distinct spacetimes: the party confronting Sephiroth and Zack confronting the Shinra army. That's it.

To me, it's too much to assume that events have changed beyond Zack's last stand, especially since Stamp's differing design could serve another purpose: a timeline indicator. For example, cutscenes or playable areas could feature either the terrier or beagle Stamp to clue players in on what timeline that content takes place in.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I really *hope* what you are writing is the case.

I'm also bracing myself to see Whispers left and right in flash-back scenes making sure the original past events happened before Midgar became the straw that broke the camel's back and they were defeated.

The one place I think they *could* really have gone futher back to is when Sephrioth gets thrown into the Lifestream for the first time. As that's when Sephiroth first comes in contact with the Lifestream... which is kinda something that is *apperently* outside of linear time in some way.

 

[Roger]

Various Time-Travel Tropes that *could* be in effect... I am not responsible for the wiki walks that might ensue from these... Really, the entire Time Travel Tropes list is a good thing to overview...

Delayed Ripple Effect - Changes made to the Past take time to "catch up" to the Present.

Ripple Effect-Proof Memory - The people responsible for changing the Past remember what happened "first time around", even though that wouldn't have happened to them in the Present.

Ripple Effect Indicator - An object from the Present/Future that reflects the changes made by changing the Past.

Caught in the Ripple - Something new exists (between installments/episodes) that everyone in-universe treats as having always been the way things were in previous installments/episodes.

Tricked Out Time - Faking a stable time loop by changing the Past in such a way that it *looks* like the original event occurred, when instead, something else happened.

Close-Enough Timeline - The Past gets changed, but it's close enough to what happened the first time, no one bothers changing it.

In Spite of a Nail - The Past gets changed, but the change gets "smoothed out" so the new changes don't have an effect on the Present.

--------------------------------------

Delayed Ripple Effect is *probably* what is going on after the Singularity happens. With a hefty dose off Ripple Effect-Proof Memory on the side of AVALANCHE. They conveniently end up not being in Midgar where whatever changes could have been made when Zack didn't die would probably be a lot more obvious.

Stamp is the obvious Ripple Effect Indicator. There are a few others sprinkled around earlier that hint at time *already* being changed before the game even starts. But everyone is Caught in the Ripple and isn't noticing them (yet).

Tricked Out Time is probably what is going on with the Singularity and Zack not dying... but Tifa still finding Cloud (and the Buster Sword) like she did in the OG. It's close enough to the OG that the major differences aren't obvious (yet).

Close-Enough Timeline is what Aerith is more than likely aiming for. Sephrioth is aiming for Make Wrong What Once Went Right.

In Spite of a Nail is what it seems most *players* are hoping Part 2 will be...

You'd have to explain to me why Tricked Out Time is the most probable. The thing that just happened is that the force trying to control time was eliminated and Zack being alive is an unforeseen consequence in a now free future, no one is conciously tricking time anymore. Indeed it would require a very deliberate hand to immediately pick up where the Whispers left off seconds after they were vanquished to manoeuvre Zack and Cloud in the exact right way so Cloud nevertheless ends in the exact same state, in the exact same place, with the same weapon at the exact same time as he'd left Zack on the cliff many hours ago in my eyes (why this force that understands that Cloud and the Buster Sword need to be removed from Zack doesn't just curve the Buster Sword's path through Zack's neck on it's way to the train station is another matter).
But if that's neccesary, why does Cloud also need to have Ripple Effect Proof Memory in this scenerio? We go through all these hoops to explain why from his or Tifa or Barret's perspective nothing is different in regards to Zack being alive, yet they also wouldn't have noticed if things had been different because their memories are from before the change anyway? Why do we need to double up here?

 

[cold_spirit]

As that's when Sephiroth first comes in contact with the Lifestream... which is kinda something that is *apperently* outside of linear time in some way.

Yeah... These days I like to think of the Lifestream as a 4th dimensional substance, able to course through time like it courses through the planet and universe. I mean, considering Whisper Harbinger's enemy intel, this has to be at least a little true:

An accretion of Whispers, the so-called arbiters of fate. The creatures appear when someone tries to alter destiny's course. They are connected to all the threads of time and space that shape the planet's fate.

The Lifestream has gained a new property with almost every Compilation title (e.g. curing Geostigma, Omega and Chaos, Minerva...) I expect this to be Remake's big contribution to the evergrowing lore.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

You'd have to explain to me why Tricked Out Time is the most probable. The thing that just happened is that the force trying to control time was eliminated and Zack being alive is an unforeseen consequence in a now free future, no one is conciously tricking time anymore. Indeed it would require a very deliberate hand to immediately pick up where the Whispers left off seconds after they were vanquished to manoeuvre Zack and Cloud in the exact right way so Cloud nevertheless ends in the exact same state, in the exact same place, with the same weapon at the exact same time as he'd left Zack on the cliff many hours ago in my eyes (why this force that understands that Cloud and the Buster Sword need to be removed from Zack doesn't just curve the Buster Sword's path through Zack's neck on it's way to the train station is another matter).

So... There's a longish stretch of time (at least a week, if not longer) between Zack dying and Tifa finding Cloud at the train station. It would be during that period of time that "Tricking Out Time" would take place. And it doesn't need to be *deliberate* either. It's a trope about the effect rather than the cause. Accidental Tricking Out Time works just fine too. Which is what I think happened in Remake.

The thing that needs to happen to get the OG "on track" to start "normally" as it were is Tifa finding Cloud with the Buster Sword at the Train Station... and Cloud coming up with his SOLDIER persona. So long as that happens... the OG will start as it's supposed to (and how we see it start in Remake). We know Zack's Death leads to that happening... but it's not inconceivable that Zack could live and *something* could happen that also leads to that situation. Whatever that "something" is is the "trick".

But if that's neccesary, why does Cloud also need to have Ripple Effect Proof Memory in this scenerio? We go through all these hoops to explain why from his or Tifa or Barret's perspective nothing is different in regards to Zack being alive, yet they also wouldn't have noticed if things had been different because their memories are from before the change anyway? Why do we need to double up here?

It's not Cloud specificity who has the Ripple Effect Proof Memory. It's everyone who went into the Singularity. They would all remember their past as it went in Remake... aka... how we, the audience saw it happen. Because for them, that *did* happen for them to end up in the Singularity in the first place.

What we don't see is what happened in the "new" timeline that happens as a result of the Singularity. In part because the place with (potentially) the most changes is the one place AVALANCHE is now outside of: Midgar. If anything has changed in Midgar as a result of the Singularity (and we see things that suggest things *did* change), then AVALANCHE wouldn't know what those changes are because they simply aren't there to see them yet.

Also note that I am coming up with this stuff before Yuffie DLC happens. Which is happening at the same time as Remake. It is very likley what specific tropes are being used will need to be revised after it as we just don't know what things are like post-Singularity.

We currently have an information *scarcity* about what is going on with time-travel in Remake. I'm just trying to bring up tropes to give names to concepts people are trying to describe that have shown up enough in other time-travel works before so we have some shared terminology. I'd love to start narrowing down what did happen, we just have... very little information to go on at the moment.

 

[Roger]

So... There's a longish stretch of time (at least a week, if not longer) between Zack dying and Tifa finding Cloud at the train station. It would be during that period of time that "Tricking Out Time" would take place. And it doesn't need to be *deliberate* either. It's a trope about the effect rather than the cause. Accidental Tricking Out Time works just fine too. Which is what I think happened in Remake.

The thing that needs to happen to get the OG "on track" to start "normally" as it were is Tifa finding Cloud with the Buster Sword at the Train Station... and Cloud coming up with his SOLDIER persona. So long as that happens... the OG will start as it's supposed to (and how we see it start in Remake). We know Zack's Death leads to that happening... but it's not inconceivable that Zack could live and *something* could happen that also leads to that situation. Whatever that "something" is is the "trick".

It's pretty difficult for me to conceive that Cloud doesn't arrive at a different mindset in that time. No matter how you place the timeline, hours, days, weeks, Cloud is going to spend some of it, concious around Zack, and having conversations that don't end with Cloud going through the traumatic experience of Zack dying and him being alone with no one to interact with until Tifa comes around.
The idea that Zack's death in itself didn't matter in terms any effect it had on Cloud's psyche, that Cloud being comatose until Zack was removed from the picture didn't matter in the OG are things I'm not on board with.
That Zack, having successfully fought off an entire army to go to Midgar, presses onto Midgar undeterred but will somehow refrain from the sole reason he is trying to reach Midgar, reunite with Aerith, doesn't strike true either. The thing that has stopped him from reaching Midgar was removed, the thing that was gonna gonna happen when he gets to Midgar doesn't happen anyway because new reasons isn't very narratively satisfying.
And Cloud, if nothing else has already missed the event where he got the Buster Sword, and in a world where Zack survives the reason he acquired it does not exist. A new reason will need be inexplicably be invented in a very short time frame. Zack didn't part with it for years on end until now, through thick and thin, a matter of weeks isn't longish by any measure.

That it all happens to right the ship towards Cloud arriving at the exact same point at the beginning of the OG accidentally is an impossible sell, especially to an audience that just dealt with an invisible hand deliberately steering the course of events towards the OG in the same story.

It's not Cloud specificity who has the Ripple Effect Proof Memory. It's everyone who went into the Singularity. They would all remember their past as it went in Remake... aka... how we, the audience saw it happen. Because for them, that *did* happen for them to end up in the Singularity in the first place.

What we don't see is what happened in the "new" timeline that happens as a result of the Singularity. In part because the place with (potentially) the most changes is the one place AVALANCHE is now outside of: Midgar. If anything has changed in Midgar as a result of the Singularity (and we see things that suggest things *did* change), then AVALANCHE wouldn't know what those changes are because they simply aren't there to see them yet.

I get that, that doesn't answer my question. If the events in Midgar are now open to have unfolded in any number of ways and everyone (which is not exclusively Cloud, but does in fact include Cloud) that went into the singularity wouldn't remember it, why does Cloud's stuff specifically need to actually remain unchanged both memory and event alike post-singularity anyway?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

My thing is.... Cloud *does* have a pretty big mentality shift from the OG to the Remake already. It takes much, much longer for his false persona to give way in the OG than it does in Remake. It's giving way faster for some reason this time around.

And... I'm not sure it's *just* Sephrioth that's the cause of that. We know in the OG that the "real" Cloud is trying to break through the fake SOLDIER persona that Cloud has in the OG, but never actually gets anywhere until the Lifestream sequence.

Zack surviving and Cloud potentially remembering more of who he really is... might have something to do with that. Real Cloud might be stronger and trying to assault the false SOLDIER persona faster (and much more effectively) than in the OG. And that might be causing problems. We certainly know Cloud is... practicly blacking out when Aerith directly names Zack to him. So... that definetly *means* something to some part of Cloud. Most likely the Real Cloud. Just... Jenova and Sephrioth and other parts of Cloud really don't want him to find out what actually happen. So Real Cloud can't really take control like he wants to...

 

[Eerie]

My thing is.... Cloud *does* have a pretty big mentality shift from the OG to the Remake already. It takes much, much longer for his false persona to give way in the OG than it does in Remake. It's giving way faster for some reason this time around.

I think there is a big reason behind this shift: this is a multiple games work. They cannot have the players falsely imprint the fake SOLDIER personality that Cloud had in the OG. This is why this time it's much more troubled. Also I would say that Cloud still has his fake persona, only it is much more visible that he's being more like himself with Tifa, as the devs wanted him to be. But! It does not mean that he remembers who he is, etc. Quite frankly on this side, I feel that it is not that different from the OG. Instead of having a black screen with young!Cloud talking to himself, this time they use other ways to convey Cloud's mental problem.

Cloud is really not so different from the OG. He's less mean, yes. His expressions do sell him - but those weren't visible in the OG. Since I've replayed the OG recently - still not done because I'm too lazy to grind XP right now, plz send help - I've noticed that every character are alike their OG self, personality-wise. In a bigger, better way, but they still retain the same traits.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The idea that Zack's death in itself didn't matter in terms any effect it had on Cloud's psyche, that Cloud being comatose until Zack was removed from the picture didn't matter in the OG are things I'm not on board with.
That Zack, having successfully fought off an entire army to go to Midgar, presses onto Midgar undeterred but will somehow refrain from the sole reason he is trying to reach Midgar, reunite with Aerith, doesn't strike true either. The thing that has stopped him from reaching Midgar was removed, the thing that was gonna gonna happen when he gets to Midgar doesn't happen anyway because new reasons isn't very narratively satisfying.
And Cloud, if nothing else has already missed the event where he got the Buster Sword, and in a world where Zack survives the reason he acquired it does not exist. A new reason will need be inexplicably be invented in a very short time frame. Zack didn't part with it for years on end until now, through thick and thin, a matter of weeks isn't longish by any measure.

That it all happens to right the ship towards Cloud arriving at the exact same point at the beginning of the OG accidentally is an impossible sell, especially to an audience that just dealt with an invisible hand deliberately steering the course of events towards the OG in the same story.

I think for me the impossible sell is that the developers don't intend to bring events to a point where those final two shots of ACC still hold the same significance for Cloud -- Aerith's flowers on Zack's grave; Zack's sword in Aerith's church.

I've previously spoken of my utter inability to believe the developers will deliberately compromise the film they're so proud of in such a way that it could no longer be a viable sequel to either the original game or the remake -- and I'll go the step further to cement those destinations for Cloud personally as fixed, inviolable, immovable endpoints of the overarching FFVII Series.

Which brings me back, as always, to the notion that we're dealing with an alternate timeline when we look at Terrier Stamp.

 

[Eerie]

I've previously spoken of my utter inability to believe the developers will deliberately compromise the film they're so proud of in such a way that it could no longer be a viable sequel to either the original game or the remake -- and I'll go the step further to cement those destinations for Cloud personally as fixed, inviolable, immovable points of the overarching FFVII Series.

Which brings me back, as always, to the notion that we're dealing with an alternate timeline when we look at Terrier Stamp.

Yes, this is one of the big reasons why I believe this is not the same timeline. Aerith has saved him, but by doing so, she also has separated definitely from him. The Aerith that Zack would possibly meet is not herself. This is why she is so sad. For herself, Zack is still dead. This is what the ending undoubtely told me, with Hollow playing in the back, with her looking at the sky and saying how she hates it; whatever is happening when they cross paths... it's the last time they're crossing paths. And she's very aware of it.

This is also why the devs are asking with a big grin "oh did you notice how Stamp is different depending on the packaging?" They wanted to make sure we'd notice, and that we'd knew it was done on purpose and there's something going on there. And the only answer is "different timeline". Also this is the reason why I believe there's no time loop. To me having flashforwards is very different from having loops and so far I've only been shown flashforwards.

The thing that changes this time around, is that now Aerith knows that Cloud and Zack knew each other, that Zack had helped Cloud and somehow, Cloud ended up with Zack's sword. I wonder how that will change her behaviour towards Cloud. But it sure feels that Aerith, by the end of the game, was forced to let go of Zack.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I am fully expecting the "Aerith's flowers on Zack's grave; Zack's sword in Aerith's church " shots from ACC to come up in somone's *memories*. In nearly identical fashion as the "Aerith's Death" scenes we have already gotten. Probably along the lines of a "look what will happen if you don't join with me" from Sephiroth.

ACC feels like the set-up for Remake as that's the story that establishes that Sephrioth was not in fact defeated in the OG. Which keeps ACC important to the plot even as Remake gets the freedom to do whatever it wants going forward.

 

[OWA-2]

Great research @Obsidian Fire.

For me, Stamp being a ripple effect indicator during the ending is a bit odd considering Zack surviving is right there. Why double up on ripple effect indicators?

At this point does the argument for a singular timeline state that Stamp's differing design is meant to indicate that more changes happened to the past beyond Zack's last stand? That perhaps the Singularity was connected to other points in time and that those points were also consequently changed? If so, why weren't we shown those other points? We see two distinct spacetimes: the party confronting Sephiroth and Zack confronting the Shinra army. That's it.

To me, it's too much to assume that events have changed beyond Zack's last stand, especially since Stamp's differing design could serve another purpose: a timeline indicator. For example, cutscenes or playable areas could feature either the terrier or beagle Stamp to clue players in on what timeline that content takes place in.

We aren't shown the other points that changed, because the consequences of their changing, will be shown in future games. Why spoil everything?

I think for me the impossible sell is that the developers don't intend to bring events to a point where those final two shots of ACC still hold the same significance for Cloud -- Aerith's flowers on Zack's grave; Zack's sword in Aerith's church.

I've previously spoken of my utter inability to believe the developers will deliberately compromise the film they're so proud of in such a way that it could no longer be a viable sequel to either the original game or the remake -- and I'll go the step further to cement those destinations for Cloud personally as fixed, inviolable, immovable endpoints of the overarching FFVII Series.

Which brings me back, as always, to the notion that we're dealing with an alternate timeline when we look at Terrier Stamp.

But we know ACC won't happen anymore, because the 3 Whispers(and their Bahamut fusion) were defeated. And according to the devs, those 3 were Loz, Yazoo, and Kadaj, and if you scanned them, it said they were fighting to preserve the future that created them. And, well, they failed. Their future(ACC) is no more.

 

[Roundhouse]

I'm still open to the alternate timeline possibility, but if we go with that, how do we solve the issue it creates of being unsatisfying as a result of being boxed off from the 'proper' timeline? How can it carry dramatic weight? The only thing I can think of is if AltZack is somehow able to cross over into the normal line in some way, and ultimately ends up leaving again at the end of the remake. If he's just off in his own timeline, I don't know if that works for the narrative...it distracts from the core story and has little potential weight.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I am fully expecting the "Aerith's flowers on Zack's grave; Zack's sword in Aerith's church " shots from ACC to come up in somone's *memories*. In nearly identical fashion as the "Aerith's Death" scenes we have already gotten. Probably along the lines of a "look what will happen if you don't join with me" from Sephiroth.

ACC feels like the set-up for Remake as that's the story that establishes that Sephrioth was not in fact defeated in the OG. Which keeps ACC important to the plot even as Remake gets the freedom to do whatever it wants going forward.

No, no, I get that. I just am unable to believe they don't intend that to be the destination for Cloud in any reality in which he's given significant attention.

But we know ACC won't happen anymore, because the 3 Whispers(and their Bahamut fusion) were defeated. And according to the devs, those 3 were Loz, Yazoo, and Kadaj, and if you scanned them, it said they were fighting to preserve the future that created them. And, well, they failed. Their future(ACC) no more.

Not really, though? Biggs and Jessie fought to preserve Sector 7, but them "dying" wasn't what brought the plate down. It could have still been preserved.

Events haven't yet developed far enough along to determine whether ACC's events can still transpire as remembered.

I'm still open to the alternate timeline possibility, but if we go with that, how do we solve the issue it creates of being unsatisfying as a result of being boxed off from the 'proper' timeline? How can it carry dramatic weight? The only thing I can think of is if AltZack is somehow able to cross over into the normal line in some way, and ultimately ends up leaving again at the end of the remake. If he's just off in his own timeline, I don't know if that works for the narrative...it distracts from the core story and has little potential weight.

Certainly some crossing over would be called for to make it a relevant development, yeah.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

If this was the *final* game in a series about time-travel and this is what we were left with, I would be a lot more critical of if the time-travel effects make... temporal... sense. And have well-thought-out causes and effects.

But we're at the end of the *first* game of a series of games. So I'm not all that concerned with how things all fit together just yet.

Particularly when we have a DLC in a few months that very well may go over some of the effects of the Singularity. In a place no one *in* the Singularity hasn't been in.

 

[Roger]

My thing is.... Cloud *does* have a pretty big mentality shift from the OG to the Remake already. It takes much, much longer for his false persona to give way in the OG than it does in Remake. It's giving way faster for some reason this time around.

And... I'm not sure it's *just* Sephrioth that's the cause of that. We know in the OG that the "real" Cloud is trying to break through the fake SOLDIER persona that Cloud has in the OG, but never actually gets anywhere until the Lifestream sequence.

But why does fake SOLDIER persona Cloud happen at all now? He doesn't need it or rather, post Mako poisoning Cloud has had to figure out some other way of being already to continually interact with Zack and whoever Zack takes them to see when they first enter Midgar and onwards. All progress towards being a walking talking person doesn't just get reset the moment Cloud is alone.

Zack surviving and Cloud potentially remembering more of who he really is... might have something to do with that. Real Cloud might be stronger and trying to assault the false SOLDIER persona faster (and much more effectively) than in the OG. And that might be causing problems. We certainly know Cloud is... practicly blacking out when Aerith directly names Zack to him. So... that definetly *means* something to some part of Cloud. Most likely the Real Cloud. Just... Jenova and Sephrioth and other parts of Cloud really don't want him to find out what actually happen. So Real Cloud can't really take control like he wants to...

If Zack surviving caused the events of the Remake then the place Zack and Cloud occupy after the battle is the one that precipitates the Remake. Where there are Whispers all over the place. Trying to kill people that should not be alive. Every single day and every single night and not being that subtle about it either. Is that what Zack's time in Midgar is gonna be likely, just a whirlwind of Whispers constantly attacking him. Never sleeping for weeks or months until the time of the Singularity? I dount it.