Relationship between Remake and the original? (split from the "How many parts?" thread)

[Roundhouse]

Nomura's secret meaning for remake, IMO, is that there is a literal remake happening inside the story of the remake itself. That is why Sephiroth is at the 'Edge of Creation'. The term 'creation' says a lot. He is trying to remake the events of VII but is somehow limited or possibly even stuck in that place. The only certainty is that Cloud is his 'key' to remaking the world/story, and he needs Cloud to willingly assist him rather than be forced -- otherwise, why bother asking for his help?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Nomura's secret meaning for remake, IMO, is that there is a literal remake happening inside the story of the remake itself. That is why Sephiroth is at the 'Edge of Creation'. The term 'creation' says a lot. He is trying to remake the events of VII but is somehow limited or possibly even stuck in that place. The only certainty is that Cloud is his 'key' to remaking the world/story, and he needs Cloud to willingly assist him rather than be forced -- otherwise, why bother asking for his help?

But what Seph called it in Japanese was more like "the culmination/end of the world." The in-game chapter summary also says Sephiroth talks to Cloud about the end of the world there.

 

[Roundhouse]

Maybe he's at the end of the world because he's in a sort of purgatory after his defeat at the hands of Cloud? Dunno. Either way, I still think that the secret meaning of remake is his desire to remake the OG story, one way or another. (Also do we have a translation of the Japanese version of the in-game chapter summary?)

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

(Also do we have a translation of the Japanese version of the in-game chapter summary?)

We do:

https://thelifestream.net/forums/th...spoilers-for-part-1.22470/page-16#post-857087

 

[Roundhouse]

'The fate of the people around the planet diverges from the rails already laid, and begins racing towards a future that does not yet exist ...'

Well. Seems pretty clear.....

 

[cold_spirit]

Sorry, maybe this was addressed (I skipped a few messages), but I wanted to share something.

@Fiz, I once thought the same thing you raised earlier, that the defeat of the Whispers rewrote parts of the past, specifically in regards to Zack's death and Stamp's design. Then the Ultimania released. @aitaikimochi, FFVIIR's translation queen, tweeted this passage and it convinced me otherwise.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1255342772153966593

"What doesn't make sense about this is how is it possible that there are two different Clouds that exist at the same time?"

I find it really interesting that the Ultimania doesn't consider the Zack holding an unconscious Cloud to be a flashback. It specifically asks how is it possible that these two Clouds (plural) do not see each other. The only way they can exist at the same time and space, yet somehow not the same time and space, is if they exist in separate, slightly offset timelines. That's my thinking anyway.

This would also match with what we're shown visually. Earlier, at the end of the Midgar highway, we're shown Zack confronting the Shinra army at the same time the party confronts Sephiroth. With separate, slightly offset timelines, this would mean these two scenes are actually happening congruently.

How the Ultimania presented this question is what changed my thinking. Just thought I'd throw that out there!

I also want to point out that the Ultimania specifically points out that Zack lives past his last stand as it was written in the original game. I hope this puts to rest any theories that Zack will get shot by three lone grunts a few steps later. I, uhhh, really don't think that's the direction they're going with this...

 

[oty]

Writing it off as two different timelines is the least confusing option they could have taken, and also the only one where it doesn't severely alter pretty much everything that we know. I could totally see them making the Zack Timeline a plot for other titles, or using it for some great emotional development. Zack Timeline being the reality where everything seems great, but fails horribly (as in, everyone dies to Sephiroth) seems the first obvious option to me, but I'm sure they can spin it in many other ways to offer different emotional resolutions.

What makes me intrigued is the fact that, right now, we have timeline A (Beagle one), where our characters (from the Remake) reside and that now it has no Whispers anymore therefore it's "free as a bird" to whatever schemes Nomura Sephiroth has, and timeline B (Terrier), where Zack lives and also....has no Whispers anymore therefore it's "free as a bird" too? What's the catch?

Like, Biggs survived in our timeline right? So they are both different timelines to the original set of events that "should" have occurred. It's just one is still very similar to it, and the other one is pretty much 90% different (probably).

 

[Fiz]

Sorry, maybe this was addressed (I skipped a few messages), but I wanted to share something.

@Fiz, I once thought the same thing you raised earlier, that the defeat of the Whispers rewrote parts of the past, specifically in regards to Zack's death and Stamp's design. Then the Ultimania released. @aitaikimochi, FFVIIR's translation queen, tweeted this passage and it convinced me otherwise.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1255342772153966593

"What doesn't make sense about this is how is it possible that there are two different Clouds that exist at the same time?"

I find it really interesting that the Ultimania doesn't consider the Zack holding an unconscious Cloud to be a flashback. It specifically asks how is it possible that these two Clouds (plural) do not see each other. The only way they can exist at the same time and space, yet somehow not the same time and space, is if they exist in separate, slightly offset timelines. That's my thinking anyway.

This would also match with what we're shown visually. Earlier, at the end of the Midgar highway, we're shown Zack confronting the Shinra army at the same time the party confronts Sephiroth. With separate, slightly offset timelines, this would mean these two scenes are actually happening congruently.

How the Ultimania presented this question is what changed my thinking. Just thought I'd throw that out there!

I also want to point out that the Ultimania specifically points out that Zack lives past his last stand as it was written in the original game. I hope this puts to rest any theories that Zack will get shot by three lone grunts a few steps later. I, uhhh, really don't think that's the direction they're going with this...

I see, I stand corrected then. Multiple timelines it is.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I dunno about this phrasing though: “In order to make sure that the two Clouds do not recognize each other’s existence, it is assumed that they should not exist in the same time and space...”

They should not, but DO they or DON’T they? The ultimania raises the question as to how is it possible for there to be two Clouds without actually confirming or denying if they can somehow meet each other or if the timelines can interact with each other, which is what I really want to know.

 

[Makoeyes987]

If they did exist in the same temporal reality, then why didn't they see each other when they literally crossed paths? It's pretty self apparent they are in two different realities.

The Ultimania's text is written specifically in a manner to hype the mystery and bring awareness to the circumstances, that's it. The phrasing is just how Japanese guides describe these type of situations.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

To me it seems that's commenting "just how does the cutscene work?", as if, the Ultimania editor wants to throw mistery on a mere cutscene trick that shows both the past and present day. Also technically Zack can still be killed just a few seconds after.

Edit: @Makoeyes987 beat me.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's extremely unlikely Zack would just be killed afterwards. He survived the final battle there, that's what they're highlighting for us. That's the miracle. That's the mystery created from the annihilation of the Arbiters of Fate.

It'd make no sense for the alternate timeline created by the Whispers' destruction where Zack survives to suddenly just undo itself like that. It's an alternate universe for that specific reason.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Well, Cloud and Zack escaping presumably didn’t happen at the same time as Cloud and the gang leaving Midgar even if they might be in the same space so they wouldn’t have seen each other anyways. If it actually was a flashback, then I feel like that would be all the more reason to specifically not spoil what’s going on by saying “yeah, the two Clouds thing is just an artsy visual cue to screw with you, it’s actually still one Cloud”. That said, I definitely don’t think they undid Zack’s death just to have him get gunned down seconds later.

 

[Roger]

As long as the writers are cognisant of the fact that a living Zack means a wholly different Cloud who will inevitably end up in a rather different place from the Buster Sword toting Ex-SOLDIER, I'm happy

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

The Ultimania editor is pointing at the chance of an Alternate Timeline in which Zack lives, but that doesn't make it true until/if it happens.
Sorry, I'm still stuck on the silly red herring version.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Yeah, my take is ultimately that they’re probably not going to just spoil the whole future of the remake here

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I dunno about this phrasing though: “In order to make sure that the two Clouds do not recognize each other’s existence, it is assumed that they should not exist in the same time and space...”

They should not, but DO they or DON’T they?

No. Because the two groups don't see each other.=P

And also the passage says "aside from that, the rest is unknown" -- so that premise is offered as the given, with the "how" left as the mystery.

The ultimania raises the question as to how is it possible for there to be two Clouds without actually confirming or denying if they can somehow meet each other or if the timelines can interact with each other, which is what I really want to know.

We all want to know that, but it could be its own separate question.

Yeah, my take is ultimately that they’re probably not going to just spoil the whole future of the remake here

I mean, they don't come out and say "parallel universes," so it isn't outright spoiled yet. They just point out that these two Clouds are occupying the same location at the same moment without being visible to each other, then asking the reader to wonder "How could that be possible??" It doesn't leave us with anything other than parallel universes, unless these guys are about to invent some new sci-fi concept.

 

[KindOfBlue]

No. Because the two groups don't see each other.=P

And also the passage says "aside from that, the rest is unknown" -- so that premise is offered as the given, with the "how" left as the mystery.



We all want to know that, but it could be its own separate question.


I mean, they don't come out and say "parallel universes," so it isn't outright spoiled yet. They just point out that these two Clouds are occupying the same location at the same moment without being visible to each other, then asking the reader to wonder "How could that be possible??" It doesn't leave us with anything other than parallel universes, unless these guys are about to invent some new sci-fi concept.

It’s just that even in the way they present the premise (based on the translations anyways), they say “it is assumed that they should not” almost like they know what people are going to think is going on since multiverses are a lot more mainstream these days but wink wink...I dunno, anything they say at this point has potential to mean something else especially with something as nebulous as multiple timlelines or dimensions or whatever so I tend to take everything with a grain of salt here

 

[Fiz]

I'm also aware that they say "time and space", which you can interpret in a number of ways. While I would agree that there is ambiguity there, and potentially it isn't multiple timelines, the phrasing does seem to be hinting at that.

As helpful as Audrey is though, it would be nice if she and others quoted the Japanese alongside their translation so that it can be discussed and even scrutinised. Especially when that text is being cryptic or coy.

 

[Roundhouse]

Multiple timelines are a perfect way for SE to try and please everyone. Zack returns, Aerith lives, GoodRoth exists, etc. They can do anything they want with this device.

 

[Fiz]

It’s just that even in the way they present the premise (based on the translations anyways), they say “it is assumed that they should not” almost like they know what people are going to think is going on since multiverses are a lot more mainstream these days but wink wink...I dunno, anything they say at this point has potential to mean something else especially with something as nebulous as multiple timlelines or dimensions or whatever so I tend to take everything with a grain of salt here

I'm hoping its being leading but that it isn't two timelines. Of all the options its the least appealing to me because multiverses tend to fall into a number of "traps".

 

[Fiz]

Multiple timelines are a perfect way for SE to try and please everyone. Zack returns, Aerith lives, GoodRoth exists, etc. They can do anything they want with this device.

The problem is, if we have multiple timelines where we are playing through different versions of the story the whole thing becomes very convoluted very quickly and tends towards the easy way out at the end by merging the timelines which would typically end up being cheap solutions to problems. They also tend themselves into creating drama with some very tired tropes, and lazy solutions to problems.

Also from a gameplay perspective. we're switching between two versions of events in parallel which can get difficult to keep track of and if you're not into the alternate story its going to sap the energy out of it. If they want to do what you're suggesting then using dynamic storytelling so that player decision influences outcomes to arrive at those conclusions is a much cleaner solution to it.

I also have some horror story thoughts with it, because we have two versions of the characters running around, and with multiverses they tend at some point to intersect and we end up with Barret meeting Barret causing him to have a psychological breakdown, Tifa freaking the hell out at having to kill herself because her alter self is evil Tifa, and Aerith dies but its fine, lets go recruit alter Aerith from the church que side quest to find her, then walking in on Aerith and Zack in bed and Cloud getting all embarassed and jealous coz he fell in love with her but this Aerith doesn't know him and is happy with Zack and then right at the end Tifa murders everybody in their sleep because good Tifa died and evil Tifa won but we didn't know which was which and ZOMG it was evil Tifa all along. because... you know thats the kind of stuff multiverses do.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Multiple timelines are a perfect way for SE to try and please everyone. Zack returns, Aerith lives, GoodRoth exists, etc. They can do anything they want with this device.

It kinda speaks to what I was getting at earlier about separate continuities for the OG and the remake. I dunno how accurate these are but when I look at quotes like these:

GamersFlag: Would it take sense to you to create an HD Remaster of Compilation of Final Fantasy VII ( Before Crisis, Crisis Core and Dirge of Cerberus) on a unique platform like you did with Kingdom Hearts? Beyond the possibility of making it, would you like to do this?

Tetsuya Nomura: Concerning Final Fantasy VII Remake, which is a title loaded with a lot of mystery for now, it will be different from the original Final Fantasy VII. If we make a compilation, these games will hardly have an overall coherence. It will be difficult because there is no more continuity between the Compilation and the Remake for the moment.

VG247: So I’m pretty sure that after Sephiroth appears and you’re walking around the streets of Midgar, that’s a music track from Advent Children. [We later verified this; the music track is a new arrangement of ‘The Promised Land‘ from 2005 FF7 sequel movie Advent Children.] I was surprised to hear that. I realize [Tetsuya] Nomura-san said before that the remake is in a different continuity to the FF7 projects from the past, but I’m curious about how much of the compilation ideas you wanted to bring into the game. Hearing music from the compilation that never appeared in the original FF7 was a pleasant surprise.

Yoshinori Kitase: I can’t give you full details exactly how many times, where they’re referenced, or anything like that, but what I want to let you know is that all of the lore from the works created after the original game, the Compilation of Final Fantasy 7, that’s all very much in the base of the canon for the remake, and going forward it will be too.

To me it says that although the remake has its own continuity from the OG, it’s not like that also means we need to throw the whole Compilation out. All of the most important elements of the Compilation still exist in the remake’s continuity, but now they can pick and choose which elements they want to use and how.

But they could have just thrown everything away if they really wanted to (and I think the fear with the ending of the remake is that they will), yet they still chose not to. And so as far as what happens within in the remake’s continuity, I don’t know if having multiple timelines in order to appease everybody really fits with what they’re going for, and I don’t think they’re saying “we’ll do anything with the remake, you can stick with the OG if you don’t like it” either. I get the sense that they’re mostly satisfied with the general direction of the story as it was already written but wanted to expand the kinds of stories they could tell.

Like, I’m sure some fans would be okay with multiple endings corresponding with each ship (ugh) but I dunno if that’ll be the case here. I feel like at one point, either the timelines within the remake will become one, one of them will be erased from existence, or maybe the fate of the world in one timeline actually ends up far worse off (maybe we can actually see Meteor fall successfully in one?)

 

[Fiz]

Multiple timelines are a perfect way for SE to try and please everyone. Zack returns, Aerith lives, GoodRoth exists, etc. They can do anything they want with this device.

On another note, if Remake is some grand reboot project where they're going to satisfy the wider fanbases dream scenarios while also maintaining something thats credibly still OG I think they're better placed to do this in a single timeline with one version of each character and throwing some dynamic storytelling into it.

They could do something like this:

Zack gets Cloud to Midgar, some alternate scene or event that leads him to give Cloud the Buster Sword and Zack goes off into some side story away from Cloud. Clouds journey begins.

Team Cloud go off on their adventure. Hook Zack into Integrade and Crisis Core by having Zack and Yuffie meet up and embark on some side story, maybe involving the stuff from integrade. The main plot moves forward with Team Cloud while a second thread moves forward with Team Zack. We could then be picking up some fan favourite dream playable characters through team Zack. We could potentially get Roche, we could plausibly have playable Turks. Yuffie could get separated off, meet Team Cloud. Then, further down the line Team Cloud and Team Zack intersect bringing the two story threads and two groups together.

You could have dynamic storytelling interwoven into that where Aerith could live or die, or Zack could live or die. You could even have all characters including new ones, or even the Turks, going into the final battle in a fan service fest celebration of the characters... or not... if you don't want to.

Personally, if they were going to give us a "celebration of FFVII with all possibilities on the table" this would be a far more preferable and cleaner solution to doing that.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

You could even have all characters including new ones, or even the Turks, going into the final battle in a fan service fest celebration of the characters...