Should they re-make FFVII?

[Lord Noctis]

I don't necessarily disagree with you. And Cloud struggles against Sephiroth, that's true, which might be more a case of endurance rather than strength. But I'm taking everything into account. Cloud has defeated Sephiroth 3 times. To me, all those intangibles (like willpower) push him up near equal to Sephiroth's level.

I think I agree with you, but let me clarify something. We are in ageement that in terms of raw physical strength and magical power, Sephiroth is superior to Cloud and has greater stamina, but Cloud's willpower allows him to push past his limitations and defeat Sephiroth despite the power gap?

 

[Dashell]

I'm pretty sure Cloud isn't at Sephiroth's level, in fact, I'm pretty sure there's a quote that says nothing is stronger than Sephiroth... I mean okay it's not equal, but I don't think Cloud is there. I think he might be able to sorta outwit and surprise Sephiroth, but without that, he'd be dead by now.

oh yeah and using his willpower and all that

 

[ForceStealer]

Also, just a note, Sephiroth's magic that people bring up here - they tend to specifically refer to his telekinesis. That he could tear Cloud limb from limb with it or something. Maybe he could have, but why didn't he at the end of FFVII? He was less concerned with revenge at that point and just wanted to wipe them out. He held them in his telekinesis but they all overpowered it. It could be he didn't use it directly on Cloud (he did use it on the Shinra building) because it didn't work before, why would it work now?

 

[Lord Noctis]

Also, just a note, Sephiroth's magic that people bring up here - they tend to specifically refer to his telekinesis. That he could tear Cloud limb from limb with it or something. Maybe he could have, but why didn't he at the end of FFVII? He was less concerned with revenge at that point and just wanted to wipe them out. He held them in his telekinesis but they all overpowered it. It could be he didn't use it directly on Cloud (he did use it on the Shinra building) because it didn't work before, why would it work now?

The main arguement regarding that is that during FFVII he was using telekenesis on several people at once, and so his power was divided, whereas in ACC its just him and Cloud so he could in theory bring a lot more telekenetic power to bear.

Perssonaly I think it might be a bit much to say Sephiroth could tear him apart with it, but he could certainly restrain him long enough to cut something important off. Like his head.

 

[Dashell]

I think it's just that Cloud knows how to overcome it by now.

 

[Tifabelle]

I think I agree with you, but let me clarify something. We are in ageement that in terms of raw physical strength and magical power, Sephiroth is superior to Cloud and has greater stamina, but Cloud's willpower allows him to push past his limitations and defeat Sephiroth despite the power gap?

In individual categories, Sephiroth would likely outrank Cloud in most, but I think they're closer than Cloud is usually given credit for. I say "more or less even" because I do think that the power gap is smaller than one might expect. Not only that, Tifa even mentions Cloud's ability to call upon inner strength, which is why the others don't go to help. If they really thought he couldn't handle Sephiroth on his own, I'm pretty sure they would have intervened. I think it's just a matter of I have more confidence in Cloud's ability, lol. In the end, Cloud defeats him, so ability/strength/magic/whatever proves time and time again to be moot.

I'm pretty sure there's a quote that says nothing is stronger than Sephiroth...

Do you remember from where?

 

[Dashell]

There was a topic with it:
http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=379

First post.

 

[Lord Noctis]

In individual categories, Sephiroth would likely outrank Cloud in most, but I think they're closer than Cloud is usually given credit for. I say "more or less even" because I do think that the power gap is smaller than one might expect. Not only that, Tifa even mentions Cloud's ability to call upon inner strength, which is why the others don't go to help. If they really thought he couldn't handle Sephiroth on his own, I'm pretty sure they would have intervened. I think it's just a matter of I have more confidence in Cloud's ability, lol. In the end, Cloud defeats him, so ability/strength/magic/whatever proves time and time again to be moot.



Do you remember from where?

Actually if I recall, the party couldn't intervene during the Sephiroth fight because of the negative lifestream.

In terms of the power gap, I certainly wouldn't say that Sephiroth is as powerful as some fanboys make him out to be, but there is significant gap between him and Cloud.

 

[null]

I think it's just that Cloud knows how to overcome it by now.

Nothing can withstand the awesome power of plot.

*ducks*

 

[Lord Noctis]

Nothing can withstand the awesome power of plot.

*ducks*

Except for Cloud's hair of course.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Then why did Sephiroth lose? Was that part of his master plan? Even if he was holding back in the beginning, I would think he would have been able to turn the tides on Cloud in the end.

He was holding back though. I mean even without the staff outright saying so, you can see it in the way Cloud is struggling to keep up while Sephiroth's not even breaking a sweat. He loses because of his arrogance and because he doesn't think Cloud is going to defeat him with the ~power of love~. It's not brilliant writing, but yeah. Cloud is never shown to be physically stronger or more skilled than Sephiroth. It's just that Cloud has a ~pure motive~ and ~protecting his loved ones~ properls him and gives him the willpower to push well past his limits.

 

[Masamune]

Didn't Squenix say Genesis was Sephiroth's equal? I can't remember where that was from but I'm sure they said it. And during their clash in CC, Sephiroth was still ice-cool while Genesis was huffing and pouting. So, while Sephiroth has the edge over Cloud, I think most of Sephiroth's posturing is just playing up his image as an otherworldly creature.

 

[Dark and Divine]

Didn't Squenix say Genesis was Sephiroth's equal? I can't remember where that was from but I'm sure they said it.

Yes, it's true, this was said in Genesis' profile in the CC Ultimania, I think.

But this was said in relation to Crisis Core, not to the Compilation as a whole.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Didn't Squenix say Genesis was Sephiroth's equal? I can't remember where that was from but I'm sure they said it. And during their clash in CC, Sephiroth was still ice-cool while Genesis was huffing and pouting. So, while Sephiroth has the edge over Cloud, I think most of Sephiroth's posturing is just playing up his image as an otherworldly creature.

They said Genesis had combat abilities on par with Sephiroth, which I always took to mean tey were roughly equal in terms of skill, not in terms of power.

Regardless that was talking about Genesis when compared to pre-nibel Sephiroth. Sephiroth in ACC is in an entirely different league.

 

[Masamune]

They said Genesis had combat abilities on par with Sephiroth, which I always took to mean tey were roughly equal in terms of skill, not in terms of power.

Regardless that was talking about Genesis when compared to pre-nibel Sephiroth. Sephiroth in ACC is in an entirely different league.

However, my point still stands. You wouldn't think Sephiroth & Genesis were equals from watching their battle. Sephiroth has this aura of invincibility about him, regardless of his opponent. For all we know, he wasn't holding back against Cloud, he was just working that aloof image of his.

 

[Lord Noctis]

However, my point still stands. You wouldn't think Sephiroth & Genesis were equals from watching their battle. Sephiroth has this aura of invincibility about him, regardless of his opponent. For all we know, he wasn't holding back against Cloud, he was just working that aloof image of his.

He was clearly not using the full extent of hispowers on Cloud. He didn't teleport, use draw slash or heartless angel, or supernova, or any magic based abilities aside from flight and one brief exertion of telekenesis which wasn't even used directly on Cloud. Not to mention he was still able to keep up with Cloud'smovements during Omnislash, and Cloud's movements are much faster during omnislash than they nromally are.

Sephiroth wasn't neccesarily holding back in terms of physical strength, but its clear that there is a power gap between them in terms of physical ability. Otherwise Sephiroth couldn't have countered one of Cloud's best limit breaks with basic sword strokes.

As for the Genesis vs. Sephiroth fight its clear enough to me that it was even. It was basicly an escelating fight. Heres how I basicly saw it.

Genesis goes on the attack driving Sephiroth back. Sephiroth realises Genesis is attacking more seriously, and goes on the offensive knocking Genesis into the air. Genesis spams fire magic gaining the upper-hand and trapping Sephiroth. genesis prepares to finish the combo but is interrupted by Angeal. Meanwhile Sephiroth starts using his draw slash ability to counter Genesis's magic. Genesis defends himself and they fall back to the canon. Sephiroth regains the upper-hand with a stronger offesnive than before, throwing Genesis back. genesis powers up his sword some more in response and stops Sephiroth's next attack in its tracks. The two seperate and prepare to resume. Angeal intervenes again. Fight ends.

You can see towards the end of the fight that Sephiroth seems more serious when he drives Genesis back, as well as when Genesis starts using magic on him.

Theres nothing like that when ihting Cloud. Against Cloud he seemed relaxed and at ease right up until Cloud used omnisash ver.6 to end his ass.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Throughout all of Crisis Core, Genesis's true strength is a big question mark. For all of the fights we see him in he is either interupted (the Junon Cannon), suffering from degradation (Modeohiem), being powered up by outside sorces (Genesis Avatar) or not really wanting to defeat his opponent (the fight after Genesis Avatar is defeated).

There just isn't a fight like Cloud vs. Safer Sefiroth or even Cloud vs. Sefiroth in ACC where we can get a good idea of what he is like at full power. All we can say is that he was powerful enough to be a SOLDIER 1st Class. That tells us nothing because that could range anywhere from Sephiroth's level of power to Zack's.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Genesis's power could even be less than Zack's, as Zack was considerably strnger than an averge First. That said I do have a power scale of my own worked out. Its speculation, but here it is.

Genesis=75% of Nibel-Sephiroth
Pre-CC Sephiroth=75% of Nibel-Sephiroth
Angeal=70% of Nibel Sephiroth
Degrading Genesis=65% of Nibel-Sephiroth
Modeoheim Zack=65% of Nibel-Sephiroth
Nibel-Zack=75-80% of Nibel-Sephiroth

And just for giggles.

First Class=50% of Pre-CC Sephiroth
2nd Class=35% of Pre-CC Sephiroth
3rd Class=20% of Pre-CC Sephiroth.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Genesis's power could even be less than Zack's, as Zack was considerably stronger than an average First.

Question is, what is an average First in CC? If an average First is someone who isn't a product of the Jenova Project, Zack is the only "average" First we see. In fact, the only time in the compilation we see more than one average First at a time is in the OG. Just a thought.

Personally, I think Genesis is more powerful then Zack. I have a very hard time seeing the Zack at the end of the game beating the Genesis from the Junon Cannon fight. It's figuring out how Zack would survive getting hit with twenty fire-balls all at once that has me thinking Zack's going to loose.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Question is, what is an average First in CC? If an average First is someone who isn't a product of the Jenova Project, Zack is the only "average" First we see. In fact, the only time in the compilation we see more than one average First at a time is in the OG. Just a thought.

Personally, I think Genesis is more powerful then Zack. I have a very hard time seeing the Zack at the end of the game beating the Genesis from the Junon Cannon fight. It's figuring out how Zack would survive getting hit with twenty fire-balls all at once that has me thinking Zack's going to loose.

It was mentioned in one of the side missions relating to minerva that Zack was able to keep going past the point where the other 1sts had to turn back. Granted its just a side mission, but it still stands.

As far as the Zack and Genesis comparison, Zack is at least as strong as Pre-CC Genesis. Zack at Modeoheim was at least as strong as degrading Genesis, possibly stronger, and he continued to improve past that point up until Nibelheim.

Its also worth noting that Genesis Avatar is likely more powerful than Pre-CC Genesis, and Zack was able to beat him despite being weaker than in Nibelheim. (Zack comments after his escape from the mansion that he feels weaker than before. Its also doubtful Zack could ahve regained his old strength before fighting Genesis again because he was basicly constantly on the run and always looking out for Cloud. So he would probably be tired all of the time, and since he would likely make sure Cloud ate first.)

Genesis certainly isn't weak by any standard, but Zack at Nibelheim was probably a little stronger.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Kinda on-topic, I had a sort of twist in my fanfic recently where Sephiroth goes all out on Cloud and Terra, transforms into Safer Sephiroth and kills Cloud outright, and he would have killed Terra too if reinforcements hadn't arrived. Later

Spoiler: spoiler for anyone who cares about my fic

Cloud is revived and imbued with the power of light by Warrior of Light, and when he and Terra have a rematch with Sephy the two combine their powers, and with Cloud's new light-aligned abilities the two eventually overpower him and destroy him.

So yeah, kinda on-topic with Sephiroth's power levels compared to Cloud...

 

[Lord Noctis]

Kinda on-topic, I had a sort of twist in my fanfic recently where Sephiroth goes all out on Cloud and Terra, transforms into Safer Sephiroth and kills Cloud outright, and he would have killed Terra too if reinforcements hadn't arrived. Later

Spoiler: spoiler for anyone who cares about my fic

Cloud is revived and imbued with the power of light by Warrior of Light, and when he and Terra have a rematch with Sephy the two combine their powers, and with Cloud's new light-aligned abilities the two eventually overpower him and destroy him.

So yeah, kinda on-topic with Sephiroth's power levels compared to Cloud...

Not really on topic, but I would like to note that was one of the best plot twists in said fic so far. I honestly did not expect it at all.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Clarifying question: When you say "Pre-CC" what time period are you talking about? Is the Junon Cannon fight part of this?

It seems to me that you're saying that the last Genesis vs Zack fight we see isn't an accurate representation of either of their true strengths. In that case, Genesis's true strength is unknown as is Zack's.

Genesis certainly isn't weak by any standard, but Zack at Nibelheim was probably a little stronger.

And Zack does not beat Sephiroth. Cloud on the, other hand, is weaker then all of them and he does beat Sephiroth. It is very likely that physical strength has nothing to do with who is the "stronger" fighter.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Clarifying question: When you say "Pre-CC" what time period are you talking about? Is the Junon Cannon fight part of this?

It seems to me that you're saying that the last Genesis vs Zack fight we see isn't an accurate representation of either of their true strengths. In that case, Genesis's true strength is unknown as is Zack's.



And Zack does not beat Sephiroth. Cloud on the, other hand, is weaker then all of them and he does beat Sephiroth. It is very likely that physical strength has nothing to do with who is the "stronger" fighter.

Cloud stabbed Sephiroth in the back, while Zack faced him head on. Big difference there. And yes, Pre-CC does mean Junon Canon fight. I can also make educated guesses about Zack and Genesis's true strength.

Genesis at the Canon is roughly equal with Sephiroth, but Nibelheim is two years later so Sephiroth is almost certainly on a higher level than he used to be. Zack was able to hold his own for some time despite this fact, signifying that his strength could be on the same level as a person who was Sephiroth's equal two years before.

Besides that Zack at Modeoheim beats the weakened Genesis, and took out Angeal within an hour or two of that (Granted Angeal wanted to die, but still). So Zack is at least as strong as a weakened Genesis at that point, and there is at least another year leading up to Nibelheim in which Zack would continue to gain experience skill and raw strength.

Theres also the fact that a (possibly) weakened Zack was able to beat Genesis Avatar, who would be more powerful than Pre-CC Genesis.

Based on that I can reasonably conclude that Zack is as strong, or slightly stronger than Genesis was Pre-CC

I would also add that strength is exactly what determines the stronger fighter, whereas skill is what determines the better fighter. Being the better fighter does not mean you are the stronger fighter.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Not really on topic.

If you are implying that my post was about whoring my fanfic and teasing people with future plot developments and not about providing insight and commentary on Sephiroth and Cloud's respective levels of strength....hm, lost my train of thought...