So is Sephiroth the strongest dude in FF7 or what

[Roger]

I missed that. In the prologue the conflict had said to go on endlessly and the story starts when Chaos was finally winning which would be about ****ing time if it's a few humans, a Genome, an Esper, a dream, a fake SOLDIER vs the King of Hell, the God of Magic, The Final Aeon, The Sorceress of Time, ect ect. Pretty much the respective rulers of their seperate realities. And even when the story starts, we aren't presented to be outmatched that much.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I missed that. In the prologue the conflict had said to go on endlessly and the story starts when Chaos was finally winning which would be about ****ing time if it's a few humans, a Genome, an Esper, a dream, a fake SOLDIER vs the King of Hell, the God of Magic, The Final Aeon, The Sorceress of Time, ect ect. Pretty much the respective rulers of their seperate realities. And even when the story starts, we aren't presented to be outmatched that much.

Technically speaking, the "Final Aeon" would've been with the side of Cosmos, just so you know...

And they were outmatched entirely, considering it was 10 warriors vs. thousands of manikins and the villains of Chaos. Yeah. They were outmatched by a shitton.

Chaos had been winning because originally they were equal, and then the forces of Cosmos were reduced to TEN. Ten vs. thousands. There's definitely imbalance there.

 

[Roger]

Technically speaking, the "Final Aeon" would've been with the side of Cosmos, just so you know...

And they were outmatched entirely, considering it was 10 warriors vs. thousands of manikins and the villains of Chaos. Yeah. They were outmatched by a shitton.

Chaos had been winning because originally they were equal, and then the forces of Cosmos were reduced to TEN. Ten vs. thousands. There's definitely imbalance there.

In numbers, that's my point. In this game any individual villain is not seen as the far superior combatant then any individual on Cosmos side. And when it is, it is much easier written off as arrogance and aggression on the villain side and insecurity on the hero's side. In their original games the heros did overcome them, yes, but it was seen as a near impossible task in most if not every case. I've done my share share of solo playthroughs too. But in this, defeating godlike beings of unbelievable strength with a sword, some magic and smarts is order of the day and everyone in the story is expected to regard it as such.

 

[Makoeyes987]

In numbers, that's my point. In this game any individual villain is not seen as the far superior combatant then any individual on Cosmos side. And when it is, it is much easier written off as arrogance and aggression on the villain side and insecurity on the hero's side. In their original games the heros did overcome them, yes, but it was seen as a near impossible task in most if not every case. I've done my share share of solo playthroughs too. But in this, defeating godlike beings of unbelievable strength with a sword, some magic and smarts is order of the day and everyone in the story is expected to regard it as such.

Well going by what we know of the villains and everything, we know that's not really the case. But I can see your point about how it is presented. But honestly, anyone who knows the plot of FFV should know that Bartz and ExDeath are *not* on equal footing. Same goes for Firion and Mateus.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

ShikamaruNara pretty much said what I was trying to say, yeah.

WHY IS IT AGREEABLE WHEN HE SAYS IT

 

[Makoeyes987]

Hey, he said HE liked the story. So that automatically makes his argument more palpable.

 

[Roger]

Well going by what we know of the villains and everything, we know that's not really the case. But I can see your point about how it is presented. But honestly, anyone who knows the plot of FFV should know that Bartz and ExDeath are *not* on equal footing. Same goes for Firion and Mateus.

Forget those two. They were vanquised by parties of four. The heros of FFI-III and FFV pretty much substitute their entire party with their class changing, mimicing, and Firion's ability to fight with eight weapons at the same time. With the Onion Knight and Warrior of Light in particular it seems they are retconning it to them being on their own from the start. But Kefka should have by all means thought lightly of taking on all the good guys in Dissidia by himself. I'm not saying we should lose this battle, but the idea that the villian consider themselves to incapable of handling this by themselves and thus stoop to teamwork is pretty ridiculous. Especially if the side material goes out of it's way to underline that half them are still very much just as strong as they at the end of their games.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Forget those two. They were vanquised by parties of four. The heros of FFI-III and FFV pretty much substitute their entire party with their class changing, mimicing, and Firion's ability to fight with eight weapons at the same time. With the Onion Knight and Warrior of Light in particular it seems they are retconning it to them being on their own from the start. But Kefka should have by all means thought lightly of taking on all the good guys in Dissidia by himself. I'm not saying we should lose this battle, but the idea that the villian consider themselves to incapable of handling this by themselves and thus stoop to teamwork is pretty ridiculous. Especially if the side material goes out of it's way to underline that half them are still very much just as strong as they at the end of their games.

....What are you talking about? They never retconned the games and stated that WoL or Onion Knight fought their respective enemies on their own, ever. That makes no sense. Warrior of Light in Dissidia is only the "Fighter/Knight" WoL, and Onion Knight is only one of three. I have no idea what you're talking about.

And I don't see how the villains working together is ridiculous if they're all plotting for the same thing/outcome. Which is a true death of the gods and the chance to rule everything. And the villains don't stoop to teamwork to fight their respective adversaries at all. So I'm not sure where you got that from either.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Some of the villains ultimate goals (in the original games) are mutually exclusive with some of the others, though.

Hey, he said HE liked the story. So that automatically makes his argument more palpable.

Hey, I said I enjoyed it, I'm just saying I think isn't really quality stuff, handheld or not.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Some of the villains ultimate goals (in the original games) are mutually exclusive with some of the others, though.

That's what spices up the alliances and makes them interesting

Hey, I said I enjoyed it, I'm just saying I think isn't really quality stuff, handheld or not.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I mean, the game itself is the shit, it's very fun. The story? Not so much, I think. Like I said, subjective, but not an unpopular opinion at all.

That's what spices up the alliances and makes them interesting

Well, that's why he said it was ridiculous. I mean, it is, a little bit, interesting or not.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I mean, the game itself is the shit, it's very fun. The story? Not so much, I think. Like I said, subjective, but not an unpopular opinion at all.

Well, do you think the story of FFI is bad? Because that's about the level of its quality, and it's heavily connected to FF1. It's simplistic in its premise, but in terms of its execution, interactions between characters, and additional backstory you can discover on your own, it enriches it and makes it all the more memorable.

Well, that's why he said it was ridiculous. I mean, it is, a little bit, interesting or not.

It's not really ridiculous. The whole fun and interest of it, is seeing how the differing viewpoints and desires, all converge for a single cause, and seeing how all the villains backstab and betray each other along the way. They're so dysfunctional and untrustworthy, yet calculating and intelligent. Seeing Mateus, Ultimecia, and Kefka, use everyone for their own ends, is pretty awesome.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Well, do you think the story of FFI is bad? Because that's about the level of its quality, and it's heavily connected to FF1. It's simplistic in its premise, but in terms of its execution, interactions between characters, and additional backstory you can discover on your own, it enriches it and makes it all the more memorable.

It's not really ridiculous. The whole fun and interest of it, is seeing how the differing viewpoints and desires, all converge for a single cause, and seeing how all the villains backstab and betray each other along the way. They're so dysfunctional and untrustworthy, yet calculating and intelligent. Seeing Mateus, Ultimecia, and Kefka, use everyone for their own ends, is pretty awesome.

It's not bad. The plot itself has nice presentation and has that general S-E shine on it (for better or worse, depending on how far you've think S-E has fallen in recent years), and yes, the additional stuff you can find and discover is interesting.

Also, the interactions between characters offer a new look on their relationships and personalities. But even though I understand and accept it's canon, it does feel a little silly with it being a canonical entry between FF characters in different universes. It presents some issues, and the only way you can handwave it is if you can accept it's just a silly little story in its own little world, and in doing so, it's quality in itself is okay at best when compared side by side with the mainstream titles.

It's certainly enjoyable, though.

 

[Roger]

....What are you talking about? They never retconned the games and stated that WoL or Onion Knight fought their respective enemies on their own, ever. That makes no sense. Warrior of Light in Dissidia is only the "Fighter/Knight" WoL, and Onion Knight is only one of three. I have no idea what you're talking about.

I said seem. When the Cloud of Darkness talks to the Onion Knight he is just that, the Onion Knight. It's not you kids, it's a title referring to him specifically.
Warrior of Light is the same. He says he doesn't remember anything and then Tidus/Firion (don't remember which one it was, or both at different times) says that he'll always have the memories of fighting alongside the other Dissidia warriors. But like you said in another topoic, he remembers Garland from the events in Final Fantasy. If they actually acknowledged the fact that he had three others guys that also don't have memries and were with him from day 1 that would take away from that friendship moment with the Dissidia guys, so they skimped over that. I didn't say they retconned it outright, like you were quick to jump on but they ignored them in the coontext of this game.

And I don't see how the villains working together is ridiculous if they're all plotting for the same thing/outcome. Which is a true death of the gods and the chance to rule everything.

Except that they don't work toward the same outcome. Emperor and Ultimecia do, Kefka, Kuja, Exdeath and CoD do. The rest they just cope with out of neccesity.

And the villains don't stoop to teamwork to fight their respective adversaries at all. So I'm not sure where you got that from either.

Ultimecia brought Garland to team up against Squall. Kefka brought CoD to team up against Terra.

 

[OWA-2]

The reason it's hard to consider Dissidia canon, is all of those inconsistencies already mentioned, in relation to their original games.
You can say "it's fantasy" but that doesn't change the fact that fantasy have to be consistent within itself, something that Dissidia isn't(I mean, it's not consistent with the other FF games that are "canon" to it's story).

You can say that "Cosmos did it" or "Chaos did it", to justify all the changes in power-levels and etc. but that's just your desperate attempt to explain all the un-explained holes in the story.
The game itself nor the Ultimania give a reason for why the heroes alone are able to defeat their god-like enemies, when they needed an entire party to do the same thing before. The explanation doesn't exist, independent of what you think.

Not to mention Nomura did say in an interview that Dissidia isn't canon. I'm gona try to find the interview and post it here.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

The reason it's hard to consider Dissidia canon, is all of those inconsistencies already mentioned, in relation to their original games.
You can say "it's fantasy" but that doesn't change the fact that fantasy have to be consistent within itself, something that Dissidia isn't(I mean, it's not consistent with the other FF games that are "canon" to it's story).

You can say that "Cosmos did it" or "Chaos did it", to justify all the changes in power-levels and etc. but that's just your desperate attempt to explain all the un-explained holes in the story.
The game itself nor the Ultimania give a reason for why the heroes alone are able to defeat their god-like enemies, when they needed an entire party to do the same thing before. The explanation doesn't exist, independent of what you think.

ding ding ding

 

[Makoeyes987]

I said seem. When the Cloud of Darkness talks to the Onion Knight he is just that, the Onion Knight. It's not you kids, it's a title referring to him specifically.
Warrior of Light is the same. He says he doesn't remember anything and then Tidus/Firion (don't remember which one it was, or both at different times) says that he'll always have the memories of fighting alongside the other Dissidia warriors. But like you said in another topoic, he remembers Garland from the events in Final Fantasy. If they actually acknowledged the fact that he had three others guys that also don't have memries and were with him from day 1 that would take away from that friendship moment with the Dissidia guys, so they skimped over that. I didn't say they retconned it outright, like you were quick to jump on but they ignored them in the coontext of this game.

Well for obvious plot reasons, they can't really say the names or anything of those characters, and for the reasons you said. And really, if the Onion Knights were to have a name, they'd be the names of the characters in the DS remake of FFIII, as shown in the Dissidia Ultimania.

Except that they don't work toward the same outcome. Emperor and Ultimecia do, Kefka, Kuja, Exdeath and CoD do. The rest they just cope with out of neccesity.

The outcome they *all* want, is a true death for Cosmos. After that, they know they're gonna do whatever they want. As Mateus states after Cosmos is killed:

With Chaos victorious, the chains binding us are no more. One schemes the world's return to the Void, while another revels in its ultimate destruction. Each of us has begun to follow the naked desires in our hearts.
It is the birth of an utterly chaotic world.

That about sums it up. And it makes total sense.

Ultimecia brought Garland to team up against Squall. Kefka brought CoD to team up against Terra.

Kefka wasn't interested in destroying Terra originally, he wanted to capture her and make her, his slave again. As for Ultimecia, that's a good point. She's the only real exception. She probably intended to beat the shit out of him, and push him to his limit, in hopes of making him squeeze out his crystal so their plot would work.

Also, I think its worth noting that in Shade Impulse, ExDeath, Emperor Mateus, and Garland, are the only villains that are by plot, faced off against, by more than one hero. These three apparently took more than one person to beat. Not just their respective heroes. All the others were defeated by their respective hero exclusively.

 

[Makoeyes987]

You can say that "Cosmos did it" or "Chaos did it", to justify all the changes in power-levels and etc. but that's just your desperate attempt to explain all the un-explained holes in the story.
The game itself nor the Ultimania give a reason for why the heroes alone are able to defeat their god-like enemies, when they needed an entire party to do the same thing before. The explanation doesn't exist, independent of what you think.

How the hell is it a desperate attempt, when the game itself states that these two are gods, and have stated both have the ability to raise the dead, and grant powers to either of the characters they so choose? Not only that, but Chaos himself is capable of rending time and space, and creating a nigh infinite army? Do you even know what you're talking about?

Not to mention Nomura did say in an interview that Dissidia isn't canon. I'm gona try to find the interview and post it here.

He said Dissidia's story is independent of the original stores of the previous games, which it is. It's not a continuation of any Final Fantasy. It's its own unique story. Don't know how that translates into "not canon."

 

[Cat Rage Room]

He said Dissidia's story is independent of the original stores of the previous games, which it is. It's not a continuation of any Final Fantasy. It's its own unique story. Don't know how that translates into "not canon."

But by this explanation alone, that's like saying that for example, the Marvel vs. Capcom series of games is canon, even though it's independent of the original stories and not a continuation.

(p.s. MvC is not canon)

 

[Makoeyes987]

But by this explanation alone, that's like saying that for example, the Marvel vs. Capcom series of games is canon, even though it's independent of the original stories and not a continuation.

(p.s. MvC is not canon)

It's not the only explanation to be taken alone, now is it?

Which is kinda irrelevant.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

It's not the only explanation to be taken alone, now is it?

Which is kinda irrelevant.

Well what do you have to bring to the table to prove that Dissidia is most certainly canon to the individual timelines and events in the lives of all the characters within, and not just a 'what if' side game, like Marvel vs. Capcom?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well what do you have to bring to the table to prove that Dissidia is most certainly canon to the individual timelines and events in the lives of all the characters within, and not just a 'what if' side game, like Marvel vs. Capcom?

Although this game is a Final Fantasy installment it’s not an RPG, so I was expecting a more somber response, but the responses from the fans was a lot more enthusiastic than I expected.

I had been involved with the FINAL FANTASY series for several years, and before I knew it I somehow became a part of DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY as well! (laugh) When I found out that the young staff members originally from the KINGDOM HEARTS team were making this game, I thought it sounded like a really fun project.

Dissidia means “conflict” or “disagreement” in Latin.

“Gaiden”(side story or spin-off) made the game feel too distant, and we wanted to set the right tone for DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY; it isn’t a numbered title, but has just as much spirit as a main story.

As a rule we were extremely careful to treat DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY as a genuine entry in the FINAL FANTASY series. FINAL FANTASY is an RPG series, and we were very aware that transitioning to the action genre would be a risk for the development team and fans alike.

Those quotes from the creators, taken with all the facts pointed out in the Dissidia Ultimania, and the fact Dissidia's a prequel to FF1's plot, and the profiles within the game itself, pretty much answers the question, with a neat little bow.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Those quotes alone aren't very convincing. That just tells me that they made sure to make the game in the spirit and feel of an actual Final Fantasy title, but not that the game is canon to their respective characters and their universes. Yes, Dissidia is a prequel to the events of FF1, but it doesn't say much for the others.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Those quotes alone aren't very convincing. That just tells me that they made sure to make the game in the spirit and feel of an actual Final Fantasy title, but not that the game is canon to their respective characters and their universes. Yes, Dissidia is a prequel to the events of FF1, but it doesn't say much for the others.

It does if you take into consideration what the entire plot of the game says with each character.

And I don't know how Kitase, the producer stating:

“Gaiden”(side story or spin-off) made the game feel too distant, and we wanted to set the right tone for DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY; it isn’t a numbered title, but has just as much spirit as a main story.

Which completely refutes the possibility of it being a side-story/spin-off, doesn't answer the question. With Nomura and Arakawa calling it a genuine main entry into the Final Fantasy series.

And also bear in mind the other Nomura quote was stated before the game was released, and in development, so Nomura wouldn't have even wanted to spill the beans on the plot or its importance in the first place.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

It does if you take into consideration what the entire plot of the game says with each character.

How does this help an argument of it being canon? A non canonical entry in any series still can provide insight in the characters it features.

Which completely refutes the possibility of it being a side-story/spin-off, doesn't answer the question. With Nomura and Arakawa calling it a genuine main entry into the Final Fantasy series.

I don't interpret it that way. To me it seems like they're saying that they've been careful to make sure the game feels like Final Fantasy and has that same care and attention to it. Which they've done a pretty good job in doing. I don't see how that statement means its canon.

Seriously, the same thing has been said about non canonical Street Fighter entries.