So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Some close textual reading going on here.
However, to take the discussion in a different direction, here's a quote borrowed from another thread, when, in ACC, Sephiroth says to Cloud, "Tell me what you cherish most, so I can take it away". Now obviously this is mere idle taunting; Cloud isn't about to point out anyone for Sephiroth to target. But it's also intended to be ironic, IMHO, because Sephiroth thinks he has ALREADY taken the thing that Cloud cherishes most. Up until that moment, Cloud's been labouring under the same illusion, namely, that life isn't really worth living without Aerith. Then, as Sephiroth taunts him, he has his moment of revelation and sees that he cherishes everything, the rolling hills, the mountains, the flowers, the daffodils etc.... including Aerith, but not Aerith more than anything else, and he realises that he wants to live to be with the people he loves.
At least I think you could read it like that. If you wanted to. Or not.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Up until that moment, Cloud's been labouring under the same illusion, namely, that life isn't really worth living without Aerith.

Except that Cloud never says or does anything to suggest this. He doesn't want to die, but when you have an incurable disease that people are dying from all around you, you can't blame him for thinking he will die. Big difference.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

I never got that Cloud actively *wanted* to die, if he were suicidal, well, wouldn't he have done it?

But wanting to die is just against Cloud's character, it doesn't suit him at all. His character is learning to live with his guilt and negative emotions and struggle on and overcome them. Wanting to die would invalidate that. I think he was accepting of the fact he was going to likely die, but that's it. Accepting something forced upon you, and actively wanting it, are not the same thing.

 

[Strangelove]

Being suicidal doesn't work when he fights for his life in the first 10 minutes instead of letting Yazoo and Loz kill him

But wanting to die is just against Cloud's character, it doesn't suit him at all. His character is learning to live with his guilt and negative emotions and struggle on and overcome them. Wanting to die would invalidate that. I think he was accepting of the fact he was going to likely die, but that's it. Accepting something forced upon you, and actively wanting it, are not the same thing.

I was going to say this.

 

[Splintered]

Up until that moment, Cloud's been labouring under the same illusion, namely, that life isn't really worth living without Aerith.

Where did this vibe come from because I honestly didn't feel it. He didn't want to die because of one person, he simply gave up because he felt guilt. There's a tremendous difference between accepting fate in a wallow of guilt for the things he could not do, and wanting to die because Aerith is not there.

There was a part of him that did want to live his life. You can't say you want forgiveness if you don't want to move on. And as Tifa explained, he may not answer his phone but he doesn't throw it away either; he keeps that connection with people but he just doesn't know how to use it.

 

[Vendel]

Being suicidal doesn't work when he fights for his life in the first 10 minutes instead of letting Yazoo and Loz kill him

Pfft. That is just because he wants to die in Aerith's church. That way he is sure to be with her!

 

[Ryushikaze]

So when Cloud says to Tifa that he's glad they meet again, it means sex too?

Or when he says to Tifa he hopes she can meet the real Cloud someday.

I've never thought about this, but doesn't this mean that Aerith already failed to help Cloud? That no matter what, only Tifa could reach and help Cloud during his breakdown?

Yes.

Some close textual reading going on here.
However, to take the discussion in a different direction, here's a quote borrowed from another thread, when, in ACC, Sephiroth says to Cloud, "Tell me what you cherish most, so I can take it away". Now obviously this is mere idle taunting; Cloud isn't about to point out anyone for Sephiroth to target. But it's also intended to be ironic, IMHO, because Sephiroth thinks he has ALREADY taken the thing that Cloud cherishes most.

He does? Funny, if he's asking Cloud this to point out that he's already done it. One would expect to be followed by an 'oh, wait...' as he drove the point home. As is, it parses like he wants what Cloud cherishes most and truly wants to destroy it to make the boy suffer, not that he already has.

Up until that moment, Cloud's been labouring under the same illusion, namely, that life isn't really worth living without Aerith. Then, as Sephiroth taunts him, he has his moment of revelation and sees that he cherishes everything, the rolling hills, the mountains, the flowers, the daffodils etc.... including Aerith, but not Aerith more than anything else, and he realises that he wants to live to be with the people he loves.
At least I think you could read it like that. If you wanted to. Or not.

Yes... If you hit yourself in the head with a hammer about eight times and shut your eyes and go 'LALALALA' any time Cloud's mindset is bloody well fucking explained.

 

[Madame Mayor]

You can't say you want forgiveness if you don't want to move on.

This. Then there's also the fact that after they save the world, rather than go off on his own to cry over Aerith and be alone forever, he tells Tifa he wants to build a life with her and that it'll be alright now that he has her.

Sure doesn't sound like a guy who wants to die because his girlfriend did.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I never got that Cloud actively *wanted* to die, if he were suicidal, well, wouldn't he have done it?

But wanting to die is just against Cloud's character, it doesn't suit him at all. His character is learning to live with his guilt and negative emotions and struggle on and overcome them. Wanting to die would invalidate that. I think he was accepting of the fact he was going to likely die, but that's it. Accepting something forced upon you, and actively wanting it, are not the same thing.

Yes, you are right. It was bad phrasing on my part. Yours is much more accurate.

 

[Tennyo]

Oh yes, the whole, "Cloud wanted to die," bit that goes against the entire plot of Advent Children.

I sometimes seriously wonder if the people who first suggested this ever actually WATCHED it.

Being suicidal doesn't work when he fights for his life in the first 10 minutes instead of letting Yazoo and Loz kill him

lol Being suicidal doesn't work since Cloud never actually tries to off himself.

 

[Vendel]

So apparently we had it all wrong. Tifa being described "like a mother a koibito and a close ally in battle" were her roles. But not just for AC. These are her roles during the game FF7 and on. Hell the entire compilation.

So she is ally in battle to all of avalanche. She is like a mother to Cloud, Marlene and Denzel and she is a koibito to anyone who has shown even the slightest attraction to her throughout the compilation. All the boys in Nibelheim, Johnny, Rude, and even Cloud IN THE PAST.

It's all so clear to me now.

 

[Tennyo]

Yes, Vendel, that's exactly how it is. Just like how Advent Children is all about Cloud wanting to die, and then in the end when he decides to live it's because he's sexing up Aerith's ghost, which means he hasn't moved on at all, thus in turn negating the ending and the entire moral of the story.

Plot? What plot? What ever remnants of actual plot were ever in AC are JUST your imagination. It's all about Cloud having a fairy tale relationship with a dead girl, with a few action scenes thrown in and Sephiroth for a dash of fanservice. But no one worth their salt even pays attention to those parts, we all just fast forward through them for the flower field bits. I know I do.

 

[Raquelborn]

I would like to hear some examples please. I would also like those examples to be obvious from an outside perspective.

In fiction right? I'll be honest with you, I can't be bothered to rake through all my books and read a load more just to give you some examples. I'm just surprised you haven't come across it yourself. Something is irking me about a film or TV series I've watched before but I can't place it.

I can give you an occurence in everyday life that I've seen anyway. There's a couple of people near my grandma who live with kids like that and they're not involved. And no I won't supply pics.

You see? This. This is inventing rather arbitrary and odd reasons.

I see you claiming I "invent" stuff as a way of avoiding writing a decent counterargument. If I pull stuff out of my backside please elaborate on why that's your opinion.

The realistic POV is that any fictional or non-fictional pairing in C/T's situation would be considered a couple barring absolute proof that they are not.

The realistic and highly objective point of view would be: Cloud and Tifa live in a bar together along with Marlene, a daughter of their friend Barrett, and a sick boy they took into their care called Denzel.

I could go on further and say... A romantic relationship between the two has not been ruled out.

Le Fini. If you want to place more meaning on it and argue the case of 'cloti' then sure, yours would be fine.

Those are people who look at it from the POV that Cloud is still madly in love with Aerith.

I don't think that.

Ps. I'm tired of the koibito argument. It's insane to think the man Tifa is a girlfriend/lover to can't be Cloud, it makes my head spin. I don't care how you take Aerith's use of it, just don't be so backwards regarding how it's used in regards to Tifa. /rant

 

[Vendel]

In fiction right? I'll be honest with you, I can't be bothered to rake through all my books and read a load more just to give you some examples. I'm just surprised you haven't come across it yourself. Something is irking me about a film or TV series I've watched before but I can't place it.

Trust me I have looked. C/T would be the first.

I see you claiming I "invent" stuff as a way of avoiding writing a decent counterargument. If I pull stuff out of my backside please elaborate on why that's your opinion.

What I mean is inventing scenarios to try and explain why two people in C/T's situation are not a couple. When the creators have supplied nothing of the sort in the compilation or the books etc.

In fact we have quite the opposite.

The realistic and highly objective point of view would be: Cloud and Tifa live in a bar together along with Marlene, a daughter of their friend Barrett, and a sick boy they took into their care called Denzel.

*sigh*

 

[Fairheartstrife]

The realistic and highly objective point of view would be: Cloud and Tifa live in a bar together along with Marlene, a daughter of their friend Barrett, and a sick boy they took into their care called Denzel.

Just wanna step in here **shoves Vendel aside for the moment** and say that's not the realistic and highly objective point of view. Logically, one would infer that a couple--especially one with Cloud and Tifa's history and compilations slamming home that Cloud has romantic interest in Tifa and she in him--would infer that said pairing is in a relationship and raising their family together. That's the objective and realistic view.

Stating that it's "possible" for them to be simply co-habitants raising children is certainly within the realm of "real life" possibility (or other fictional works) as you've pointed out--but even you said it wasn't a common occurrence, and therefore, that alone negates it as being the "logical" assumption. Or the objective one. Maybe you're not clear on what objective means? I'm not being facetious, I've seen many people assume the "objective" standpoint and be completely off, especially when they insert "situation" upon the argument--as you just did--and then it's not objective.

As it stands now, in compilation, the logical, objective reasoning would be that Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship--romantic and complicated--raising an unconventional, non-traditional family.

Sorry, but when people start throwing in "Yeah, but in REAL LIFE" I've seen this...[insert argument here] or I've read this [insert argument here] as a counter, the argument is lost. Even more so, when what's being pandered itself is far from the "realistic" POV they're trying to get across.

There are exceptions in life and literature, certainly, but you can't call them the realistic and objective expectations when you've already acknowledged they are NOT the commonality.

Ok, that'll wrap up me and my ramble...

 

[Vendel]

Just wanna step in here **shoves Vendel aside for the moment**

God I love it when you're rough.

 

[Raquelborn]

What I mean is inventing scenarios to try and explain why two people in C/T's situation are not a couple. When the creators have supplied nothing of the sort in the compilation or the books etc.

Nothing I said was "invented", I was explaining how it could be a non-romantic situation based on what we can strictly say about it (ignoring the mutual feelings quotes etc, because remember, I'm trying to demonstrate the point that their cohabiting in itself is not as strong a point in favour of 'Cloti' as some people are trying to make out. I'm not trying to disprove the couple as canon).

Just wanna step in here **shoves Vendel aside for the moment**

Well hi there!

and say that's not the realistic and highly objective point of view. Logically, one would infer that a couple--especially one with Cloud and Tifa's history and compilations slamming home that Cloud has romantic interest in Tifa and she in him--would infer that said pairing is in a relationship and raising their family together. That's the objective and realistic view.

First, I want to clear up what I meant by objective. Maybe I'm using the wrong word but what I wrote is exactly what anyone who wants to strip the situation down to exactly what it 100% is would say. It's the same as if my laptop suddenly burst into flames, I would say 'it has burst into a blue flame and there's now a crack here, this key is missing, the right side is starting to melt a little more than the left' and so on. I have not drifted into 'flames would mean the laptop obviously got too hot on top of the air being quite dry and since the fan was making funny noises the day before it must be the cause of the laptop getting too hot due to poor air circulation around the components as it wasn't properly working' yada yada yada. I am not trying to explain the situation there or say what it could be infering, I'm simply stating exactly what it is, nothing more.

In order to reach the conclusion you outlined we're drawing from other sorces of informaiton about their relationship in order to decide that it is certainly, as you said, infered they have a romantic relationship. But that's just it, them living together maybe further support but it's far from a main point and I don't believe it should be used as such as I've seen it used before, it simply doesn't stand up on its own.

Stating that it's "possible" for them to be simply co-habitants raising children is certainly within the realm of "real life" possibility (or other fictional works) as you've pointed out--but even you said it wasn't a common occurrence, and therefore, that alone negates it as being the "logical" assumption.

No, that's the thing, I was not trying to 'assume' anything. Since there are exceptions as you have agreed, I was, of course, taking this into consideration and hence I say it's 'possible' but not 100% known for certain either way. I am doing my best to be exact through my wording.

Maybe you're not clear on what objective means?

Let's just ask Wiktionary to save some breath.

1. Of or relating to a material object, actual existence or reality.
2. Not influenced by the emotions or prejudices.
3. Based on observed facts.
4. (grammar) Of, or relating to a noun or pronoun used as the object of a verb.

As it stands now, in compilation, the logical, objective reasoning would be that Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship--romantic and complicated--raising an unconventional, non-traditional family.

Yeah, I'd call that a reasonable conclusion based on what we know. But again, we don't require 'Tifa and Cloud live together raising children' to come to it, it's simply cherries on top.

Sorry, but when people start throwing in "Yeah, but in REAL LIFE" I've seen this...[insert argument here] or I've read this [insert argument here] as a counter, the argument is lost. Even more so, when what's being pandered itself is far from the "realistic" POV they're trying to get across.

Well I guess that's the problem because there's never going to be a couple in real life or another fictional book who grew up next to a mako reactor, had their hometown burnt down, one got mako poisoned while the other worked in a bar, 4 years later met each other again only for the guy to be completely screwed up and so on. But some of us were just trying to make the point that living together, an everyday thing found in real life, does not always equal romance and so it doesn't necessarily completely an utterly mean it here either. That's it.

There are exceptions in life and literature, certainly, but you can't call them the realistic and objective expectations when you've already acknowledged they are NOT the commonality.

That's not what I called 'them'. The fact is that it is a possibility, a stupidly small possibility to you? Maybe, but it's that small possibility I will refuse to completely ignore. That's why I have worded things the way I have, it's the same way I would word observations and a conclusion of a chemistry experiment. I am being as exact as possible.

 

[Madame Mayor]

I'm trying to demonstrate the point that their cohabiting in itself is not as strong a point in favour of 'Cloti' as some people are trying to make out.

However, the point being made against you isn't that two people living together means they are automatically in a romantic relationship, but that if you see a man and a woman raising children together in a work of fiction, or in real life even, it is assumed that they are in a romantic relationship until said otherwise.

Yes, there are exceptions, but not enough to stop the assumption at first.

 

[Raquelborn]

However, the point being made against you isn't that two people living together means they are automatically in a romantic relationship, but that if you see a man and a woman raising children together in a work of fiction, or in real life even, it is assumed that they are in a romantic relationship until said otherwise.

Yes, there are exceptions, but not enough to stop the assumption at first.

The reason it can be assumed something romantic may be involved is due to other parts of the compilation that infer so. Otherwise we wouldn't really know and it'd all be subjective reasoning, right? (This reminds me of the "undying feelings" argument because unless it's suggested otherwise, "undying feelings" are assumed to be romantic in other works of fiction and real life. It's the stronger evidence pointing at 'cloti' that negates this more commonly assumed meaning in FFVII). I'm still being careful about how I word my conclusion however because it's not 100% solid that romance is meant to be part of them living together. That's that. I can imagine someone going "IT'S OBVIOUS" but that's not the point. I'm being exact because this way I'm being the most accurate.

It's the same way Tifa being a koibito to Cloud is obvious but not even Hito will say 'it's stone cold fact'. Although, I'd say being stated as someone's girlfriend is still a much more significant point than them living together and raising children.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Plot? What plot? What ever remnants of actual plot were ever in AC are JUST your imagination.

Agreed, that was largely the problem with the original cut of the film.

 

[Ryushikaze]

The reason it can be assumed something romantic may be involved is due to other parts of the compilation that infer so. Otherwise we wouldn't really know and it'd all be subjective reasoning, right?

(This reminds me of the "undying feelings" argument because unless it's suggested otherwise, "undying feelings" are assumed to be romantic in other works of fiction and real life. It's the stronger evidence pointing at 'cloti' that negates this more commonly assumed meaning in FFVII).

Haven't we been through this and it been pointed out that the trend is not for undying feelings to automatically equal romance? Unlike male/female cohabitation in which the underlying trend is to assume romance both in and out of universe?

I'm still being careful about how I word my conclusion however because it's not 100% solid that romance is meant to be part of them living together. That's that. I can imagine someone going "IT'S OBVIOUS" but that's not the point. I'm being exact because this way I'm being the most accurate.

Um... his words at the start of CoT. 'The woman wears the pants', the saddling with them with a kid for whom they are replacement parents.

It's the same way Tifa being a koibito to Cloud is obvious but not even Hito will say 'it's stone cold fact'. Although, I'd say being stated as someone's girlfriend is still a much more significant point than them living together and raising children.

...
...
...
Raq, connect the dots.
Put the jigsaw together, and stop looking at individual pieces.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

First, I want to clear up what I meant by objective. Maybe I'm using the wrong word but what I wrote is exactly what anyone who wants to strip the situation down to exactly what it 100% is would say. It's the same as if my laptop suddenly burst into flames, I would say 'it has burst into a blue flame and there's now a crack here, this key is missing, the right side is starting to melt a little more than the left' and so on. I have not drifted into 'flames would mean the laptop obviously got too hot on top of the air being quite dry and since the fan was making funny noises the day before it must be the cause of the laptop getting too hot due to poor air circulation around the components as it wasn't properly working' yada yada yada. I am not trying to explain the situation there or say what it could be infering, I'm simply stating exactly what it is, nothing more.

Uhm...what?

In order to reach the conclusion you outlined we're drawing from other sorces of informaiton about their relationship in order to decide that it is certainly, as you said, infered they have a romantic relationship.

No, in order to reach the conclusion I have, one must be gifted with common sense. There is no need to draw from other sources. Let's completely negate any other sources and say we know a man and a woman in their early twenties that share a home, a business and are raising two children; you are seriously trying to tell me that the LOGICAL conclusion is that they are cohabitants and nothing more? Seriously?

That's a stretch. Yes, it may happen on occasion, but it is a far cry from this:

The realistic and highly objective point of view would be: Cloud and Tifa live in a bar together along with Marlene, a daughter of their friend Barrett, and a sick boy they took into their care called Denzel.

That's just being ridiculous.

But that's just it, them living together maybe further support but it's far from a main point and I don't believe it should be used as such as I've seen it used before, it simply doesn't stand up on its own.

I don't think anyone is claiming their relationship is solely based on the fact that they are living together, but yes, Cloud wanting to stay with Tifa and have a life with her DOES allow them living together to be a stand alone argument. And you can't exclude that--it's the REASON they are living together. It's not money, space, long-lost-relative-down-on-their-luck... They live with one another because Cloud wants to be with her.

No, that's the thing, I was not trying to 'assume' anything. Since there are exceptions as you have agreed, I was, of course, taking this into consideration and hence I say it's 'possible' but not 100% known for certain either way. I am doing my best to be exact through my wording.

You are taking exceptions into a realm where the FACTS and COMPILATION make your "objective and logical" conclusion a much more grandiose leap than accepting the situation for what it is. At face value, they are a couple. Add compilation, they are a couple.

That's not what I called 'them'. The fact is that it is a possibility, a stupidly small possibility to you? Maybe, but it's that small possibility I will refuse to completely ignore.

It is ONLY a possibility if you completely disregard compilation and what we KNOW, and therefore completely undermines your argument. **sigh**

That's why I have worded things the way I have, it's the same way I would word observations and a conclusion of a chemistry experiment. I am being as exact as possible.

No. A chemistry expert would not ignore the hundred OTHER chemicals in favor of only looking at sodium and chloride and calling it "salt". You want to claim to be "exact" then take all of compilation into account or your argument is bullshit and will likely result in an explosion. <--chemistry metaphor... See what I did there?

 

[Tennyo]

God I love it when your rough.

*you're

 

[Raquelborn]

Haven't we been through this and it been pointed out that the trend is not for undying feelings to automatically equal romance? Unlike male/female cohabitation in which the underlying trend is to assume romance both in and out of universe?

I'm paralleling them. If someone says 'they live together' I think ~they are probably a couple/it's romantic~. If someone says 'he has undying feelings for her' I think ~they are probably romantic feelings of longing~. But our private opinions on the whole 'undying feelings' having romantic connotations differ and will differ forever so I'm not interested in dragging that out again.

Um... his words at the start of CoT. 'The woman wears the pants', the saddling with them with a kid for whom they are replacement parents.

Nothing says 'it is romantic'. But of course it doesn't, why the hell would it? It's obvious and everything else implies it but I can't say to someone 'it 100% is' so I won't. Instead it's best to say 'probably', 'most likely', 'it hasn't been ruled out' and so on.

Raq, connect the dots.
Put the jigsaw together, and stop looking at individual pieces.

My argument was: living together isn't as significant a point as koibito or "mutual feelings" because...although I was really trying to explain to Vendel why some people just aren't very convinced by it. But then some people seem to of got confused and assume I am advocating that it no way means anything romantic/I'm being anti-cloti. This is not the case, I have joined the dots. There's no need to imply otherwise.

Uhm...what?

I went a bit technical. I got my own example though, that's all that matters right?

No, in order to reach the conclusion I have, one must be gifted with common sense. There is no need to draw from other sources. Let's completely negate any other sources and say we know a man and a woman in their early twenties that share a home, a business and are raising two children; you are seriously trying to tell me that the LOGICAL conclusion is that they are cohabitants and nothing more? Seriously?

That's a stretch. Yes, it may happen on occasion, but it is a far cry from this:

You are taking exceptions into a realm where the FACTS and COMPILATION make your "objective and logical" conclusion a much more grandiose leap than accepting the situation for what it is. At face value, they are a couple. Add compilation, they are a couple.

It is ONLY a possibility if you completely disregard compilation and what we KNOW, and therefore completely undermines your argument. **sigh**

See my reply to Ryu.

That's just being ridiculous.

I don't see how that's "ridiculous". It's strictly true.

I don't think anyone is claiming their relationship is solely based on the fact that they are living together, but yes, Cloud wanting to stay with Tifa and have a life with her DOES allow them living together to be a stand alone argument. And you can't exclude that--it's the REASON they are living together. It's not money, space, long-lost-relative-down-on-their-luck... They live with one another because Cloud wants to be with her.

I like this point, so point taken.

No. A chemistry expert would not ignore the hundred OTHER chemicals in favor of only looking at sodium and chloride and calling it "salt". You want to claim to be "exact" then take all of compilation into account or your argument is bullshit and will likely result in an explosion. <--chemistry metaphor... See what I did there?

Except if a salt formed you would just say as an observation "a precipitate/salt formed". Then you go on about why, what the salt probably is, details of the likely reaction and so forth later on.. I'm sure I'm starting to bore you again. Also, see my reply to Ryu because I was trying to show WHY SOME PEOPLE AREN'T BLOODY CONVINCED by the "they live together raising children" line, I was not trying to disprove Cloud and Tifa's relationship.

 

[Vendel]

Raq. Somehow I get the feeling that you are arguing a different point than everyone else.

I'm not sure how you can have two people who live together and raise children and say that isn't an indicator of a relationship. Or at least not a strong one.

All the while admitting in the vast majority of cases that two people in that situation are indeed a couple. Then turning around and saying that since it isn't 100% you can't make assumptions.

I'm sorry but we went over that.

The point is that the logical assumption is ANY pairing, epically a fictional one in C/T's situation ARE A COUPLE UNTIL SHOWN OTHERWISE. That is the burden of proof.

I swear only in this fucked up LTD can anyone look at that situation and go "well it could mean something other than a relationship so I wont make an assumption".