So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Tennyo]

Also ACC took place over like three days. They get stuff done pretty quick in the world of FFVII.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

The problem with Clerii and Maiden is that Maiden starts off with Aeris not knowing much, and works up to Aeris gettign a clue about what the fuck is going on, including watching Cloud and Tifa swim around in the Lifestream, thus learning Cloud's trufax story.

So, when it begins saying Aeris loved Cloud more than Zack, it's pretty much like FFVII introducing Cloud as a SOLDIER and then moving on to tell you that no, he is not and this is why he isn't. Maiden does pretty much the same thing.

-Aeris starts off saying she likes Cloud more.
-She describes Cloud as cool, confident and heroic (somethign Nomura himself says Cloud is not), which is unlike him, and actually more like Zack.
-She tries to recall what she knows of Cloud that makes Cloud unique, what makes up the character of Cloud, and the image she forms is of another character, and thus HE wakes up: Zack.
-Then she tries to reach Cloud, but can't (he only hears Tifa).
-She watches as Tifa and Cloud take a walk through Cloud's mind, thus learnign about the real Cloud (and how he's had a hard on for Tifa since before his balls dropped, and that's how she knows they're GOING TO LIVE TOGETHER)
-Zack is hanging around hitting on her and there's playful banter between the two
-Aeris comes to know that Cloud is indeed just a fucking dork, and so she did not love the "true" Cloud

So yeah, Maiden was never really very pro-Cleris.
That having been said, canon kind of ignores it anyway.

@ Canon couples list:

Who says this is a canon couples list? Does it say that? or are just famous scenes from different games listed? The Rinoa/Squall hug is the most memorable of the game and easily recognizable as FFVIII. Yuna = X. It doesn't surprise me that they'd use those.
Does it say anything about romance and couples?

You can't just take a group of images and force it to mean whatever the hell you want it to. That's what the Clerii call that page, not what the page actually tries to portray.
You're recontextualizing. Badly.


Furthermore, how does a list that misses a shitload of other couples somehow negate C/T? That means that all the other canon couples aren't fucking canon either, by omission. What are these idiots smokin?

 

[Dashell]

Yeah they made it sound like there was a page that was like

"THE OFFICIAL CANON RELATIONSHIP CHARTS OF FFVII!"
and it had Cid and Sherra as married and it showed Zack and Aerith as once loved and it just showed Cloud and Tifa as childhood friends. But I guess that's not quite the case

Furthermore, how does a list that misses a shitload of other couples somehow negate C/T? That means that all the other canon couples aren't fucking canon either, by omission. What are these idiots smokin?

I don't think most of them realize it's just the charts. When I posted the charts asking if that was the page they were talking about I got a bunch of "I don't know"s.. and was told to wait until those who had the book came back so they could tell me.

I still would like to see the charts for DoC and AC though...

-Aeris comes to know that Cloud is indeed just a fucking dork, and so she did not love the "true" Cloud

Lol that would be awesome if it said that in those exact words

 

[Vendel]

Also ACC took place over like three days. They get stuff done pretty quick in the world of FFVII.

I'm pretty sure the stuff at the northers crater takes place like a week before the movie proper. But yeah a couple days for the main action.

Speaking of getting things done quick. As I mentioned about Barret. If you look at the bare minimum it's possible they were only traveling around for a couple weeks before heading to Midgar. And it mentions them building 7th heaven very quickly. And Barret leaves a week after it's done. So all told I think we can safely say 4-5 weeks might have been all that Barret was with the others. The extra time I gave was just to be safe.

NOW keeping this in mind. We have Barret leaving Marlene in C/T's care. And as far as we know AC is the first time he comes back. Now we know Marlene is his life. So why would he feel comfortable dumping her on them? Well cross reference CoB and the conversation with Cid.

The answer is simple. Barret felt that he could leave Marlene, his beloved daughter, in Cloud and Tifa's care because in his mind they are in a (serious) relationship. And that Cloud isn't going anywhere. It is a stable home life. So she will have that with people he trust and he can go off and find his purpose/forgiveness.

Also I think Barret tells Marlene this is basically a permanent situation. and that C/T are her new parents/guardians.

“I’ll be a nice child of this family!” Marlene said.

Hearing those words, Cloud and Tifa looked at each other. A child of this family?

“I’ll take care of Cloud and Tifa!”

And if it wasn't a permanent situation when he left? Once Denzel comes into the scene it pretty much cements this.

Maybe Barret is just a rabid CloTi shipper? So much so that he extradites himself from the situation as quickly as possible. And leaves his daughter in their permanent care.

 

[Zee]

-Aeris comes to know that Cloud is indeed just a fucking dork, and so she did not love the "true" Cloud

Actually she tells Zack he's not simplistic and awkward like Cloud. C:

 

[Madame Mayor]

Actually she tells Zack he's not simplistic and awkward like Cloud. C:

Which is the complete opposite of the way she was describing Cloud earlier on in the book. Aerith just can't make up her mind in Maiden.

 

[Zee]

I only remember her saying he was protective and mysterious, which I didn't think was particularly far off either, and still jives with what she said in the game about their differences.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Actually she tells Zack he's not simplistic and awkward like Cloud. C:

Right, so unless you're of the "Aeris fell in love with the real Cloud while watchign his life movie from the Lifestream" I fail to see how this is advocatign C/A.
Awkward and simplistic wasn't what she described when she said I like Cloud more than Zack.

Aerith just can't make up her mind in Maiden.

I don't think that's the case. I think Aeris is aware at the end that what she thought she loved in Cloud was actually not the real Cloud. I'm not saying she thinks Cloud's a loser now, but if we adhere to context then the conversation she has with Zack later is not her saying "you suck, Zack. I like Cloud, neener neener". She also tells him she'll only call him if she gets realy lonely, but guess who's hanging around two years later. Zack continues to show off and go "dude stole mah moves, Aeris, aren't I awesome?" It's playful banter.

There isn't really another moment where Aeris says she loves Cloud as she did in the beginning. If we take her joking with Zack seriously, then the convo goes like this:

Z: You're the best girl I ever knew, Aeris!!1
A: Yeah? Well, you suck. You see that loser there? He's better than you.

Zack pouts and then breaks into a smile, unaffected.

Z: Call me, sweetcheeks
A: pfft, you wish.

Calls him anyway aparently.

So either they're joking around, or Aeris really just being mean to Zack. Cause you know, they totally hate each other.

It doesn't make sense that Zack would continue to hit on his best friend's girl after that, and knowing the tragedy that separated them. It is very unlikely that Zack would seriously try to show off and make himself appear better than Cloud. Fuck, he says the man is his living legacy!

If you take them to mean everything they say seriously, then you gotta consider ALL of it, not just cherry pick parts and go "Aeris is seriaz when she tells him to fuck off".

 

[Makoeyes987]

And that's why Maiden is the most congruous and consistent novelization to ever be apart of the Compilation. Totally.

Benny's the man!

 

[Dashell]

Here's something that came up recently, do you guys think Clerith perspective makes you miss the point of the game? I never really looked at it as such but I'm curious to hear your opinions.

 

[Makoeyes987]

You post one thing there, and then post it here...

I think the "Clerith Perspective (tm)" definitely has you miss the point of AC, with how much it warps Cloud's intent and character, and cheapens his bond with his family, which is..kinda integral to the entire film. It turns the entire plot on its head. In regards to FFVII, it might a little bit, since you miss the point of Cloud's bonding with Tifa and how she was the woman who actually knew his past and saved his fractured mind, and the whole point of Disc 1 and his "relationship" with Aerith, was all part of the plot twist regarding his identity and personality. But FFVII isn't that much about romance and who Cloud's with so you don't really miss *too* much.

You end jacking up AC more with that than FFVII.

 

[Dashell]

You post one thing there, and then post it here...

I didn't post that there... someone posted saying Cloti perspective ruins the point of the game and I wanted to hear if you guys thought Clerith perspective ruined the game. But I think you covered everything I thought. FFVII isn't about romance or what girl Cloud likes, so you don't really miss the point.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I know, so you reversed it, and asked us if we thought the same thing about Cleriths

I just find it funny, its like you're an intermediary, or a researcher going back and forth to see what each person thinks.

 

[Dashell]

I like to hear different opinions ... and now that I think about it, if you DO think Cloud was chasing Aerith during AC... yeah you would have quite a different perspective on the movie. Not sure if you'd miss the point entirely but the ending sure doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[Makoeyes987]

No, you'd miss the point. Because how can Cloud want to move forward and say he wants to be there for his family and come back home, when he's out driving around looking for flower fields to spiritually find Aerith and fuck her and crap? It's a contradiction.

How can Cloud want to return to realizing his desire of starting a life together back with Tifa (which he said out of his own mouth) and his family if he's left the home and gallivanting with another woman?

How does that make any sense at all?

 

[Dashell]

How can Cloud want to return to realizing his desire of starting a life together back with Tifa (which he said out of his own mouth) and his family if he's left the home and gallivanting with another woman?

... gall what now O_o

How does that make any sense at all?

Cause it doesn't, you're right. But it might depend on how deep your Clerith perspective runs. If it's like you said and Cloud's going off to meet Aerith all the time you'd miss the point. But if it's just that he loved Aerith but is able to move on from her and get over his guilt, it's not as bad.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Dictionary is your friend.

And yeah it's not as bad, but when did he ever love her romantically? I suppose being a die-hard "past" Clerith fan isn't as bad, but it still is kinda basing a position out of thin air. He knew the woman for 2 weeks, for Christ's sake.

 

[Dashell]

But you can make him flirt with her and what not if you choose... and fuck I really don't wanna get into this again.

gal·li·vant also gal·a·vant (gl-vnt)
intr.v. gal·li·vant·ed also gal·a·vant·ed, gal·li·vant·ing also gal·a·vant·ing, gal·li·vants also gal·a·vants
1. To roam about in search of pleasure or amusement. See Synonyms at wander.
2. To play around amorously; flirt.

actually I think I did know that now that I read the definition.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Because everyone you flirt with you fall madly in love with, right?

If it were anyone but Cloud and Aerith, people would laugh at how ridiculous the premise is.

And Cloud was clearly in his true frame of mind and remembering where his feelings were. Definitely a relationship going on there.

 

[Isabella]

I don't think I'd say the Clerith perspective misses the point of FF7, because ultimately the love story is a subplot. But I do think that POV plays down some of the more important aspects of Cloud's story. It assumes that Cloud was himself on disc one, or at least that he was in touch with himself enough to be in a genuine, serious romantic relationship. It also belittles what was supposed to be a major revelation in the Lifestream. If you think Cloud was always Cloud, with just a few errant memories thrown in, then the Lifestream sequence is almost inconsequential, not the pivot point it's supposed to be.

So in the sense of how we understand Cloud's journey, I think the Clerith POV is a bit off-target.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Here's something that came up recently, do you guys think Clerith perspective makes you miss the point of the game? I never really looked at it as such but I'm curious to hear your opinions.

Yes. It does.

Because many of the arguments in defense of the pink pairing utterly rape the story as is, ignore major plot points, give undue importance to the whole romance angle and completely fucking sideline the head asplode angle to insist that Cloud was truly himself on Disc 1, to say nothing of the things I've seen people say about the rest of the compilation to try and make it all pink sunshine and rainbow farts.

So yes, I would say that the Clerith perspective has made those people miss the goddamn point. It's not part and parcel of the perspective, but in their case it is true.

Their arguments on how C/T perspective makes one miss the point of the game, please. I want to see the reasoning. Stances are worthless without reasoning.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Their arguments on how C/T perspective makes one miss the point of the game, please. I want to see the reasoning. Stances are worthless without reasoning.

Amen. Ridiculous statements without any logic or substance really get annoying.

 

[Isabella]

Their arguments on how C/T perspective makes one miss the point of the game, please. I want to see the reasoning. Stances are worthless without reasoning.

This. I'd like to know what they think the "point" of the game was, and how C/T messes that up.

Is the point of the game that one should obsess over someone they lost?

 

[Dashell]

Again it depends on how deep your Clerith perspective runs. I mean they were talking about how some people said Aerith wasn't important to the story at all or that they were happy Aerith died. You would miss a pretty big part of the story and make Cloud look like a total jackass in that case. Even more than him rejecting Tifa under the highwind and then saying, "Hey let's start a new life together." two days later.

IMO, does it ruin FFVII?.. Not so much, does it mess with the entire compilation,... it certainly puts a different spin on everything. And it's a spin I don't think the creators intended the fans to feel.

 

[Zee]

Because many of the arguments in defense of the pink pairing utterly rape the story as is, ignore major plot points, give undue importance to the whole romance angle

Everyone gives undue importance to the love subplot. Have you not seen these threads? lol

Also about the whole "he only knew Aeris for x amount of time", technically Zidane falls in love with Garnet 20 minutes after meeting her, so yeah. SE isn't exactly super duper realistic with the romance timelines and all that.

Again it depends on how deep your Clerith perspective runs.

^ This. A C/A perspective only ruins the flow of the story if you're of the spirit!sex variety, and there's actually... a lot less of those Cleris than you all seem to think.