So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Hinata Hyuga]

And besides, after their meeting at the well, there was most likely a whole month or more before he left for Midgar. Cloud said "Come this spring, I'll be leaving this town." To me, that doesn't seem like he's saying he'll be shipping off the very next day or anything.

 

[Isabella]

I thought Tifa said something along the lines of, "we weren't that close." Weren't that close indicates to me that they knew each other to at least some degree.

 

[Zee]

No. I don't think so. I was making a very specific point. You are just choosing to ignore it.

You didn't even get the point of my original post, how could you make a counter point?

I thought Tifa said something along the lines of, "we weren't that close." Weren't that close indicates to me that they knew each other to at least some degree.

It seems that she knew of him, like a kid you pass by in the halls at high school, but they didn't have the same group of friends and Cloud was a loner by his own admission.

 

[Vendel]

You didn't even get the point of my original post, how could you make a counter point?

I got the point. The fact that you didn't get my point is the point of my last post.

 

[Zee]

I got the point. The fact that you didn't get my point is the point of my last post.

is this the point of the post with the point that the post pointed out when i posted the point

 

[Makoeyes987]

Tifa says they weren't childhood friends, though. So uh.

Also I don't think Cloud staring through her window really counts as interaction.

No she doesn't. She states they weren't close, in regards to how close she remembered them being.

And again, that's not all he did.

Tifa:But I really didn't know you that well. I've known you
since we were children and always thought we were close... Now that you mention
it... I don't recall you ever being in my room...

If she never interacted with him, how could she say she knew him or knew him "that well?" There was clearly some interaction and knowledge of Cloud but it didn't go as deep as compared to her three friends, which is what they are talking about.

 

[Vendel]

Let me just wrap this all up in a nice pink bow.

I find it amusing that the person who insisted Aerith knew the REAL Cloud on disk one of the game is now saying that Tifa didn't really know Cloud.

This screams pinker logic to me.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Clearly, Tifa knew Cloud, albeit, not as well and as closely as she remembered. But to say they were strangers and their first bit of interaction was when Cloud called her out to the well, makes no sense and flies in the face of the story. You can be someone's friend without actually being truly intimate and privy to all of their secrets and characteristics. They were just friends. Not close friends, but not exactly acquaintances either.

 

[Zee]

I find it amusing that the person who insisted Aerith knew the REAL Cloud on disk one of the game is now saying that Tifa didn't really know Cloud.

I was pointing out that, since Tifa and Cloud's interaction was so limited as children, it's not like she has a well full of knowledge about him over Aeris. And since Tifa's feelings are blossoming on disk one, why can't Aeris'? They both like a messed up guy.

also what the fuck is a pinker

 

[Isabella]

But Tifa knew Cloud wasn't acting like himself on disc one. How did she know that if she'd only had one conversation with him?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Except Tifa at least knew of Cloud's actual history, past and characteristics as himself, which Aerith was completely unaware of, given the fact she initially fell for a guy who was acting and dressing up as her dead boyfriend. Not really the same starting point at all.

And Tifa's feelings for Cloud were beyond blossoming. They were there. She liked the guy pretty much from their shared moment at the well. The attraction was set. All that was happening was them getting to know Cloud and being intimate with him. Aerith had no idea who the guy was until he fell through her ceiling.

 

[Zee]

But Tifa knew Cloud wasn't acting like himself on disc one. How did she know that if she'd only had one conversation with him?

It seemed like when she saw there were holes in his memory she figured something was up, but wasn't sure if she should say anything.

 

[Hinata Hyuga]

it's not like she has a well full of knowledge about him over Aeris. And since Tifa's feelings are blossoming on disk one, why can't Aeris'? They both like a messed up guy.

It looks like you're making light of Cloud's state on disc one again. Aerith meets Cloud when he is under Jenova's influence. He's not even close to being himself.

Aerith isn't exactly interacting with Cloud. The Cloud she sees and falls for is a counterfeit. Tifa and Aerith aren't on even standing.

 

[Isabella]

It seemed like when she saw there were holes in his memory she figured something was up, but wasn't sure if she should say anything.

No, she says she was convinced there was something wrong from the beginning, because his behavior was strange. The bravado, the cockiness, the flirtiness aren't him. She does a "WTF?" if you choose Cloud to say the "next to you, who wouldn't" line. She knows that's not him.

She convinced him to stay with Avalanche to watch over him. That was months before he recalled Nibelheim.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Tifa never really talked with Cloud (if anything, he knew more about her from watching her) and the only time she did was right before he left to go to Soldier.

Uh, the well was not their only encounter, nor was it exactly 'right before' he left. He was leaving 'come the spring' which gives them one- two months to get to know each other better at minimum even if she didn't know him then.

After that she starts to think about Cloud more, about the kind of person he became. So really, she has a bare bones view of Cloud the same as Aeris, and only really gets to know him through the journey and during the Lifestream event. Unless you can point out to me anywhere in between that time she could have learned more about him.

The few months from before he left, which let her know from meeting him again that he wasn't entirely all right.

Tifa says they weren't childhood friends, though. So uh.

No, she does not. She says they weren't 'that close, but...'

Also I don't think Cloud staring through her window really counts as interaction.

And no one is saying it does.

I was pointing out that, since Tifa and Cloud's interaction was so limited as children, it's not like she has a well full of knowledge about him over Aeris.

Enough to know from day 1 that something's off and wanting to keep an eye on him since he's not acting himself.
Without magical Cetra power, too.

And since Tifa's feelings are blossoming on disk one, why can't Aeris'? They both like a messed up guy.

Tifa's feelings blossomed well before disc 1, though. That's been explicit every time we've gone into their flashbacks.

also what the fuck is a pinker

A particular subset of C/A shipper.

 

[Ryushikaze]

It seemed like when she saw there were holes in his memory she figured something was up, but wasn't sure if she should say anything.

That was when she knew what was wrong, not when she knew something was wrong. She knew something was wrong before the game even starts.

 

[Zee]

It looks like you're making light of Cloud's state on disc one again. Aerith meets Cloud when he is under Jenova's influence. He's not even close to being himself.

Aerith isn't exactly interacting with Cloud. The Cloud she sees and falls for is a counterfeit. Tifa and Aerith aren't on even standing.

No, it's just that his state of mind is always overcomplicated. They pretty much paint you a picture when they crack Cloud's head open-- there's no Jenova, there's no Zack, it's just Cloud and his very confused memory, aided by the Jenova cells. They just made it easier for him to absorb those memories, but it's Cloud who wanted them.

The very fact that Cloud is trying so hard to put up this front should be your first clue that it's really him in there. So yeah, Aeris is interacting with Cloud, just a very fogged up one.

Tifa and Aerith aren't on even standing.

Not to Cloud, but whatevs.

@Isabella; The way she remembered him was always picking fights, so I'm not sure why she was surprised he was a jerk, but lol anyway the point is not that Tifa knows squat about Cloud, but that as I said above it wasn't like she knew him inside and out pre-lifestream event.

Uh, the well was not their only encounter, nor was it exactly 'right before' he left. He was leaving 'come the spring' which gives them one- two months to get to know each other better at minimum even if she didn't know him then.

Where are you people getting these dates from? For srs

But anyway, didn't her father hate Cloud? I would think it'd be kind of hard for them to continue a consistent friendship even after that.

A particular subset of C/A shipper.

lol lame

ediiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit must log off of course keep the replies coming

 

[Hinata Hyuga]

So yeah, Aeris is interacting with Cloud, just a very fogged up one.

Well I know the real Cloud is in there somewhere.

The point was, and it's why I think you're oversimplifying, is that Cloud isn't being himself. Jenova is, quote, "in control of his consciousness". Aerith is NOT seeing the real Cloud. She isn't getting to know "Cloud, shy lovable dork from Nibelheim" in the two weeks they spend running around the world together.

 

[Makoeyes987]

No, it's just that his state of mind is always overcomplicated. They pretty much paint you a picture when they crack Cloud's head open-- there's no Jenova, there's no Zack, it's just Cloud and his very confused memory, aided by the Jenova cells. They just made it easier for him to absorb those memories, but it's Cloud who wanted them.

The very fact that Cloud is trying so hard to put up this front should be your first clue that it's really him in there. So yeah, Aeris is interacting with Cloud, just a very fogged up one.

Not to Cloud, but whatevs.

Except that's not what the creators or any commentary on the game says, at all. They say he's being controlled by Jenova. Puppeted. I don't understand how you're arguing to what they say, clear as day. Jenova and Zack is very much in his mind, considering he's copying his mannerisms and part of his memories.

 

[Dashell]

... okay back.. fell asleep...

I meant in general to their pink perspectives of how the movie looked and how its not as "Cloti" as a "Cloti" would have you believe.

Fuck I don't wanna read the whole topic... I see what you mean though, I'm not sure what they think the point of ACC is but they thought the original movie was Clerith so of course they'll think ACC is Clerith. It didn't really change anything.

As for the friends thing, Zee, why didn't you say that Square said Tifa and Zack were friends?

Anyways, Tifa knew Cloud well enough to know he wasn't himself in disc one, so I'd say she knew him pretty well.

And the Jenova thing, since it was just quoted elsewhere:

Immediately prior to the start of the game, when Cloud's mind was shattered, he ran into Tifa and seemed to immediately return to "normal"; this was because the mimic abilities of the Jenova cells inside Cloud read her mind, seeing her memories of him, which were then combined with his own ideal vision of himself, fashioning a new personality for him.

He was NOT himself... not saying he as Zack either cause he wasn't Zack, but he surely wasn't Cloud.

 

[Ryushikaze]

No, it's just that his state of mind is always overcomplicated. They pretty much paint you a picture when they crack Cloud's head open-- there's no Jenova, there's no Zack, it's just Cloud and his very confused memory, aided by the Jenova cells. They just made it easier for him to absorb those memories, but it's Cloud who wanted them.

Except there is Jenova's control and Zack's influence.

The very fact that Cloud is trying so hard to put up this front should be your first clue that it's really him in there. So yeah, Aeris is interacting with Cloud, just a very fogged up one.

No. She's interacting with ZaCloud. ZaCloud is the conscious personality, and has bits and pieces of Cloud, Zack, Tifa's memories of Cloud, and how he wanted to be, all jumbled together. The real Cloud is stuck underneath all that, and begins poking out more and more as the ZaCloud facade breaks down.

Not to Cloud, but whatevs.

@Isabella; The way she remembered him was always picking fights, so I'm not sure why she was surprised he was a jerk, but lol anyway the point is not that Tifa knows squat about Cloud, but that as I said above it wasn't like she knew him inside and out pre-lifestream event.

And no one is saying that, either.
We're just saying she knew him well enough to know from day one that things were wrong.

 

[A]

No, it's just that his state of mind is always overcomplicated. They pretty much paint you a picture when they crack Cloud's head open-- there's no Jenova, there's no Zack, it's just Cloud and his very confused memory, aided by the Jenova cells. They just made it easier for him to absorb those memories, but it's Cloud who wanted them.
The very fact that Cloud is trying so hard to put up this front should be your first clue that it's really him in there. So yeah, Aeris is interacting with Cloud, just a very fogged up one.

He pretty much fashioned a new personality for himself. How does that in any way indicate that Cloud was only 'aided' by the Jenova cells, when the Jenova cells caused him to willingly create a whole new personality after looking at Tifa? A new personality does not make him the real Cloud. It's also been stated that he had several personalities - including Zack. Towards the end of the game, Cloud admits to having Jenova control him the whole time - how does it make sense for Cloud to acknowledge that he wasn't himself, but a fan's interpretation that he was? Albeit, a very fogged up one?

 

[OneWingedDemon]

How does that make any sense at all?

Also about the whole "he only knew Aeris for x amount of time", technically Zidane falls in love with Garnet 20 minutes after meeting her, so yeah. SE isn't exactly super duper realistic with the romance timelines and all that

Perhaps, but they do not make a point of her not knowing the real him and wanting to meet him, nor do they ever say that her behavior towards Zidane is influenced by her feelings for an ex, nor do they stress anythign of the sort in the story.
Apples. Oranges.

No one's saying stories are devoid of the love-at-1st-sight idea, just that this game makes it clear that something is really fucking wrong and not all is as it seems.
A major part of the Aeris/Cloud interaction is this idea of Aeris trying to figure out what is wrong with Cloud, thus giving clues to the audience as well that he's fucked. Slap really short time spent together on top of that and the entire thing is suspect.

they seemed pretty fond of each other right off the bat.

Not really. I don't know timelines because X wasn't exactly the best game for me, but their relationship was gradual. If I remember right, Yuna wasn't all that fond of him in the beginning.

she has a bare bones view of Cloud the same as Aeris

Uh...no. The game goes out of its way to show you that Cloud and Tifa have a history & that Cloud's behavior is strange from the get-go. Perhaps their past isn't explored in detail beyond SE hammering that they were friends/liked each other, and all that before, but the point remains that the game begins with the premise that Tifa knows him better than the rest -- it is something that is constantly repeated later as well, especially after the lifestream sequence.
Just because not every waking moment of their lives is showcased for the viewers doesn't mean that you automatically assume everyone has equal knowledge of Cloud.
Peter and MJ's past isn't really explored in the movie, but they tell you they're childhood friends so you have to view the movie with that assumption in mind. Same here. This point is always hammered down by Square - I don't see why people feel the need to contest it.

This is totally different from Aeris, whom the game presents as someone who not only desn'tknow him, but her image of Cloud is clouded by remnants of Zack. Which the game also contantly hammers down your throat.
Cloud's behavior is strange to Tifa from the beginning, and even her optional dialogue is filled with Tifa WTFing over Cloud's macho attempts at acting like what he thinks he is.

Not really the same at all.

EDIT:
I also wanted to add that I don't remember Tifa saying they weren't friends. She just said they weren't joined at the hip, if I remember correctly. Are you talking about this?

Tifa: "No matter how close we are now...we were apart before"

Also, just off the top of my head, I remember Tifa telling Cloud that she thought his decision to join SOLDIER was pretty sudden. If the promise was the first time Cloud and Tifa really talked, why would Tifa think it was sudden? If we're basically just strangers living in the same area, who simply say hi/bye every day and you tell me one day that your dream is to be an astronaut, would I go "OMG, how strange"?
For all Tifa knows, Cloud could have been dreaming about it since he was in the womb. Does not compute.

Just sayin.


EDIT #2: because I can't get everything the 1st time apparently.

Adding that the story begins with Tifa knowing Cloud of Nibelheim, losing him in the confusion, and then finding that Cloud (who we are told is the ~REALZ~ Cloud) again.

Tifa tells Cloud in the Lifestream that she believes Cloud is the Cloud she knew in Nibelheim. Then when Cloud comes around he says "we meet AGAIN"

Oh, and found what you're talkign about, Zee:

Tifa: "It's true that we weren't THAT close, but..." <--Which is what I said. She never says they weren't childhood friends.

Ok, I'm done with the fuckin edits.

 

[Dashell]

Not really. I don't know timelines because X wasn't exactly the best game for me, but their relationship was gradual. If I remember right, Yuna wasn't all that fond of him in the beginning.

No she was fond of him right away, asking him if she could become high summoner and saying it was okay if he talked to her when the others tried to keep him away. Not saying it was teh OMG TRU LURVE but there was chemistry at the start IMO. Speaking of, it's about the time of year when I have a play through of FFX, I should totally do that.

 

[Dashell]

Okay so I was thinking (believe it or not, I do it every so often ) and we were talking about whether or not Cleriths miss the point of FFVII and AC/C... this is stuff I'm sure everyone has pointed out before but I'm just collecting my thoughts.

Well what is the point of AC/C? For Cloud to get over his guilt, realize, he IS in fact the hero he wanted to be AND the one Tifa sees him as, and to move on with his life.

Now from the Cloti perspective this all makes sense. We all right know that Tifa thinks Cloud is a hero. It said so in that quote where he's her Knight in Shining Armor. To further this, we have Cloud saving both Tifa and Denzel. Even though Aerith made the holy water fall, Cloud is also the one who pours it onto Denzel, curing him. At the end of the movie, Denzel asks who's grave is by the flowers and Cloud said it's where a hero began his journey. OBVIOUSLY talking about himself.

So... we have all of the above. Cloud is moving on with his life and all that good stuff.

Now if we take the less extreme Clerith view and assume the plot of the movie is that Cloud misses Aerith and wants to be with her so much that he's ready to die.. well this doesn't make sense.

For one thing, Cloud didn't die, he got back up and fought and it took Tifa to convince him to do so... so.. what happened to being with Aerith? He sure changed his mind quick.

If we think that Cloud wanted to somehow bring Aerith back, well he failed at that... thus he wouldn't think of himself as a hero in the end.

Or if we think that the plot of the movie is just Cloud wanting forgiveness from Aerith, well he got that in the Forgotten City... plus if that's all he wants, it's not very Clerithy at all. He's forgiven and he moves on ... doesn't sound like he was all that in love.

If we take the extreme Clerith route and at the end of the movie Cloud goes off to see Aerith, I guess he sees himself as a hero because he somehow brought her back... except that he had nothing to do with it. Unless defeating Sephiroth somehow did this, which I guess would make sense. Cloud defeated Sephiroth and now Aerith is able to see him whenever he wants thus he's a hero to himself and Aerith.

The problem with this is you have to ignore the fact that Cloud ever wanted to see himself as a hero because who was the one he wanted to prove he was a hero to? Tifa. Plus what was the point of focusing so much Tifa, Marlene and Denzel if the point of AC/C was Cloud figuring out how to get Aerith back? He focused equally on Zack, but that doesn't mean he was trying to bring him back (or was he? ) Plus the question I'd really want to see answered, if they really wanted to show that him being able to see Aerith whenever... why didn't they show it?

Why does it have to be implied? Why do us Clotis get all this stuff shoved in our faces while everything Clerith is either implied or hidden and has to be found? Hell why show Aerith with Zack at ALL if Clerith was the intended couple? She could have gone, "Hey you're okay now right?" at the end without Zack being there...

So the point is... this ended up longer than I thought. I dunno maybe I've been spending too much time on the pink forum... but yes you miss the point of AC/C entirely and it makes no sense. That's all I wanted to say, but we've established that but I ranted and now I feel better... thanks