So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Tennyo]

Spoiler: spoiler tagged by Tennyo PLEASE TAG PEOPLE PLEASE! :(

Tidus is holding a sphere, yeah. You know the ones that he had to find in the game... called Jecht spheres? That has nothing to do with Yuna, lol.

Spoiler

Never thought about it like that, but you're right. Especially within the context of Dissidia's story, or more over Tidus's portion of it (I finished that one). It would make so much more sense for it to be a Jecht sphere.

pfft, it's a shiny fighting game, it's like spoiling the ending to Soul Calibur. But lol you might not want to read these posts, then.

Don't care, it still has a plot, and I haven't finished all of the Destiny Odyssies yet AND I haven't done Shade Impulse. I don't want to know about the ending, and really using spoiler tags is NOT THAT HARD.

 

[Frostwave]

The crystal Cloud's holding is a materia. Again, if it were Holy, it'd be a lot smaller.

And have white lines running through it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

If you're gonna bring up a reference to Aerith in Dissidia in a LT debate, then usually it's indicative of one trying to use it as proof. The fact you admit it proves nothing though, goes a long way.

However, your theory of each crystal representing someone or being a personal connection/reference to someone the heroes knows is debunked since that only applies to arguably two people. Tidus's sphere could be a sphere of Jecht but we don't ever see what's in the sphere in the first place. And the feather Squall catches isn't his crystal. That's just a feather. It's a reference to Rinoa, that's true. But it isn't his crystal.

His crystal is clearly a crystal

 

[Zee]

The crystal Cloud's holding is a materia. Again, if it were Holy, it'd be a lot smaller.

The hell does it matter if they made it slightly bigger? It's a modern rendering of a well known item in FF7. That's like saying because Aeris' jacket doesn't have the shoulderpads in AC it's not really her.

Don't care, it still has a plot, and I haven't finished all of the Destiny Odyssies yet AND I haven't done Shade Impulse. I don't want to know about the ending, and really using spoiler tags is NOT THAT HARD.

Spoiler alert the character you use wins the battle

If you're gonna bring up a reference to Aerith in Dissidia in a LT debate, then usually it's indicative of one trying to use it as proof. The fact you admit it proves nothing though, goes a long way.

Even if it's not about proofz, I find it pretty funny that people are still debating against it like it is.

 

[Celes Chere]

Sorry about not tagging! -slaps own wrist-

FirionxAerith

THIS IS MY NEW CRACK SHIP AND I LOVE IT. <3

Spoiler

Never thought about it like that, but you're right. Especially within the context of Dissidia's story. It would make so much more sense for it to be a Jecht sphere

Spoiler

Agreed, because it really does look like that. I'm just going by what I think is most logical after reading the Dissidia Ultimania and actually playing the game, lol. And I think it makes no sense for the flowers or the materia to represent anyone when it comes to Cloud's story, which was about finding something to fight for and being true to the dream about a world full of flowers. Also, creating his own reality. Zee, you said is it so hard to admit it's about Aerith but then again- is it so hard not to? Can't we accept that it's just about Cloud?

Because it really is.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's not the white materia. I don't know why any green colored materia is automatically assumed to be Aerith's when it isn't even the same size. The proportion doesn't even fit. Furthermore, the materia isn't referenced at all to Aerith, while Squall's white feather is clearly referenced as coming from Rinoa right out of the Dissidia Ultimania itself.

So again, where are you getting that it's the white materia when it's not even the same size? That's like calling Zidane's crystal the Crystal of Existence when it clearly is too small to be the massive Crystal from the Crystal World. It's like calling the crystal of the Onion Knight the Wind Crystal when it is too small to be the massive crystal that bestowed to him his powers as a Warrior of Light. You're not making sense shoehorning in a label that doesn't fit. Each crystal is a crystal that is a nod to the entire game world each character hails from. They're not all tied to people.

 

[Zee]

Zee, you said is it so hard to admit it's about Aerith but then again- is it so hard not to? Can't we accept that it's just about Cloud?

The battle and stuffs, sure, that's all Cloud, but er last I checked he wasn't associated with any specific materia (except for, arguably, the Black Materia) and he's not really a flower guy.

It's not nothing to do with proofz, but I just find the arguments against it to be mostly nitpicky when the reference seems to be fairly obvious.

So again, where are you getting that it's the white materia when it's not even the same size?

Why are you so obsessed about the size? I already told you. It's a modern rendering of a well known item. If it was just on its own, I'd agree that it had nothing to do with Aeris, but if he's holding a materia that is nearly identical in color in a field of flowers that grew in her church, then arguing about the proportion is beyond pointless, it's ridiculous.

Apparently SE thought lilies + green materia would be obvious. Clearly they do not know the fandom too well.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Squall wasn't associated with any specific crystal either. Neither was Firion associated with any specific crystal.

 

[Celes Chere]

The battle and stuffs, sure, that's all Cloud, but er last I checked he wasn't associated with any specific materia (except for, arguably, the Black Materia) and he's not really a flower guy.

That's why this is Dissidia, this is a whole different story. Cloud is quite the flower keeper in this game, actually. He wants to again, be true to

Spoiler

the dream that Firi and Terra believe in

. The materia is

Spoiler

just a crystal, as it is referred to on multiple occasions. Until proven otherwise, I will continue to believe it's just a crystal. It's like Cloud's sword, which is actually a reference to Zack in the Dissidia game. If the crystal were indeed holy, you'd think Cloud would say something about it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The Dissidia Ultimania would call out the materia being a reference to Aerith's White Materia in a heartbeat, if it were. But it's not. It's a reference to materia and the world of FFVII in general. How is it that they're able to call out all the references that are specifically tied to people, but then suddenly they'd just forget Aerith and not say anything?

 

[Frostwave]

Apparently SE thought lilies + green materia would be obvious. Clearly they do not know the fandom too well.

When I hear "green materia", I don't think white materia. I think green materia, and magic materia is green.

 

[Zee]

@ Celes: So you believe the form the crystal took is completely random, despite the scene showing something else clearly associated to Aeris?

When I hear "green materia", I don't think white materia. I think green materia, and magic materia is green.

They should have just made it White, 'cause that's what I thought too. But Holy is a type of magic, so it'd make sense for it to be green. "White" is just a name to counterbalance Black Materia.

The Dissidia Ultimania would call out the materia being a reference to Aerith's White Materia in a heartbeat, if it were. But it's not. It's a reference to materia and the world of FFVII in general. How is it that they're able to call out all the references that are specifically tied to people, but then suddenly they'd just forget Aerith and not say anything?

What, do you need to be spoonfed the information rather then just, you know, playing the game and seeing it for yourself? Do they have to mention Aeris likes flowers, otherwise it's not canon either?

 

[Makoeyes987]

The scene isn't the crystal. I'll say that the flowers are definitely a reference to Aerith, and also Rinoa since Squall's standing in the same field of flowers.

But the crystal first appeared independent of said flowers. You can't say they're together. The crystal is representing FFVII. It's materia. Which is synonymous with FFVII's world. Green =/= Holy.

Again, you already made the error of saying each crystal was tied to someone by equating Squall's feather to his crystal, and Zidane's crystal to Garnet. They're not meant to tie to people. They're embodiments of each warrior's will to fight and bring back harmony to their worlds. They're not personal objects.

 

[Zee]

Again, you already made the error of saying each crystal was tied to someone by equating Squall's feather to his crystal, and Zidane's crystal to Garnet. They're not meant to tie to people. They're embodiments of each warrior's will to fight and bring back harmony to their worlds. They're not personal objects.

The crystal looked redder to me in the actual scene, and I already said that. In the ending, each character had an object to head home-- some where crystals, others were personal. Unless you don't think Rinoa's feather is something personal to Squall.

 

[Makoeyes987]

There is only one that you could maybe say is personal, and that's Tidus's. Although again, prove to me that's a Jecht Sphere, since

A.) We don't even see what's in the sphere. Or even know if it's playable.

and

B.) Jecht Spheres weren't the only spheres Tidus even collected or watched anyways.


And again I repeat: Squall's feather isn't his crystal. It's a feather that fell down from the sky.

 

[Zee]

Again why would you need things force fed to you if the conclusion is fairly obvious. Jecht's in the game, Tidus grabs a sphere in the end that looks like his...why are you over analyzing it when you don't have to?

And again I repeat: Squall's feather isn't his crystal. It's a feather that fell down from the sky.

Who cares if it's his crystal or not? We know who it represents and why he grabbed it before he vanished. So why the nitpicking with Cloud, who's exit is just as clear cut?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Again why would you need things force fed to you if the conclusion is fairly obvious. Jecht's in the game, Tidus grabs a sphere in the end that looks like his...why are you over analyzing it when you don't have to?

Tidus got his crystal (which looks like a sphere) from Jecht, because each Warrior of Cosmos has to get their crystal from battling their respective Warrior of Chaos. Just because the crystal came from Jecht doesn't automatically mean the sphere is OF Jecht. By that logic, Terra's Magicite is clearly one belonging to Kefka, and Cloud's materia is clearly one of Sephiroth.

It's not over analyzing, it's just common sense. You can't say it's really a sphere of anyone because you don't know what's even in it. It's like saying a blank video tape could be a home movie of one's family without even first putting it in a VCR. One of the spheres that was closest to Tidus's heart was one of Yuna telling him how much she loved him and she was gonna go die fighting Sin. So saying it could only be Jecht is jumping to conclusions.

Who cares if it's his crystal or not? We know who it represents and why he grabbed it before he vanished. So why the nitpicking with Cloud, who's exit is just as clear cut?

Well clearly you do since you said it was his crystal and said all the crystals embody someone personal to the heroes

It's not his crystal so putting Squall's reference in the same boat as Cloud's or Tidus's is fallicious and misleading. It's a feather. A feather clearly referencing Rinoa. Not a crystal.

 

[Celes Chere]

@ Celes: So you believe the form the crystal took is completely random, despite the scene showing something else clearly associated to Aeris?

No, I don't think the look of the crystal is completely random, the look of the crystal is that of a green materia, which is common in reference to FFVII, not Aerith. I don't believe the crystal is holy- not because it doesn't look like it, or because it's a different size, but because it is not stated to be Holy. Holy is rather important in FFVII, and if it were a reference to Aerith or holy in general, somewhere in the game and especially in the Ultimania, it would be referred to as such. Like Mako said, that's kind of an important detail to leave out if it is in fact what you believe it to be, y'know?

What, do you need to be spoonfed the information rather then just, you know, playing the game and seeing it for yourself? Do they have to mention Aeris likes flowers, otherwise it's not canon either?

No, it's not that we need spoonfed proof, it's just that we need logic. Where in the Dissidia game is Aerith referenced so greatly, that she should be shown in the end to connect with Cloud? That makes no sense to Cloud's story in Dissidia at all. If it were a reference to Aerith, it would have been said plain and simple, just as they did with Squall. Why would they say that the feather represents Rinoa, and then just forget about Aerith and any other heroine you think the other crystals represent (such as Garnet)? That just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Kikyou]

Ew, gtfo. Jk, welcome. Seriously, it's great to have another Clerith in here willing to say something.



Ah, now you've reminded me of something that really irks me. A lot of Cleriths I've seen in the LTD, haven't played games like Crisis Core, Dissidia, or watched Last Order. They haven't read the Ultimanias, or the novellas. And yet they insist on making a point about them. They insist that what they say is right, when they haven't even experienced the games/works of writing. Now, that's what I call a waste of time. There is no point debating with someone that doesn't even know all of the facts, and builds off of hearsay. For instance, I noticed that Susan thinks that she knows for sure that Aerith is referenced and there is no hint of Tifa ANYWHERE and is very quick to call the lot of us dumbasses for it. Fabulous, but she admits she hasn't even played the game.

I also recall a lot of Cleriths saying they didn't play Crisis Core because it has nothing to do with Cloud and Aerith. Now, that's a little bit obsessive, don't you agree?

It was nice. And, I respect your opinion of thinking it's first love. How then do you feel about quotes saying that Zack and Aerith are inseparable, and how do you feel about Aerith wearing pink and a ribbon for Zack? Just curious.

See, I'd love to play the compilations if I had the money. Otherwise, I would've just jumped on youtube and take a look at the scenes. I'm just a bit iffy about Crisis Core because I heard SE rehashed a few FF7 scenes. And that Genesis ruined Sephiroth. But I still want to play it and decide for myself.

I can understand why someone might not give something a chance. People, like my brother, will say the entirety of a series sucks if the ending is horrible. Something like the compilation can ruin the fondness a person has for FF7. Like, I've read comments in the CxA forum that they didn't like AC or DoC, because they would've liked to interpret the ending of FF7 something like: All the humans died because humans are the greatest threat to the planet. That's why we only see Red XIII.

Things like that.

I didn't know her outfit was Zack-inspired but here we go. ^^; I think Aerith wears pink and a ribbon because it is apart of who she has become. Cloud carried the sword and the outfit he wore in FF7 because it is apart of who he has become. She is a young woman who loved Zack and he was a young man who was best friends with Zack. And those moments spent with Zack were not just precious, but changed them, not just physically but I also think mentally, into the characters I love in FF7.

Like how AVALANCHE wore pink ribbons after Aerith died, they are keeping her in their memories because she was a beloved nakama. They are deep and persisting bonds. So yeah, I can agree with the comment that Zack and Aerith are inseparable. But you could also say that about AVALANCHE and Aerith, Vincent and Lucrecia, Zack and Cloud, and Aerith and Cloud. Which is why a Clerith like me can say Cloud still loves Aerith after her death. Of course, someone else can also say that Cloud moved onto Tifa, keeping those memories of Aerith with him. I think that is one of the main areas contested in LTDs and that is why some Cleriths might insist that CxT or AxZ are "platonic" by nature.

I'd write more and respond to the other comments I saw, but I need to head to class.

 

[Makoeyes987]

See, I'd love to play the compilations if I had the money. Otherwise, I would've just jumped on youtube and take a look at the scenes. I'm just a bit iffy about Crisis Core because I heard SE rehashed a few FF7 scenes. And that Genesis ruined Sephiroth. But I still want to play it and decide for myself.

It's not so much as a rehash, as an actual point of continuity. Crisis Core *does* take place during one of the iconic moments of FFVII's past. Specifically, the Nibelheim Massacre. It'd make no sense not to include since the game is Zack's story, and that was a turning point in his life.

And Genesis didn't ruin anything. That's just fandom BAWWW. Sephiroth's still the same. The only thing they did was actually flesh out and give a reason to one of the most questionable and bizarre moments of reasoning in FFVII's story.

I didn't know her outfit was Zack-inspired but here we go. ^^; I think Aerith wears pink and a ribbon because it is apart of who she has become.

Thing is though, is that Aerith hated the color pink. She wears it because Zack liked it on her and she promised to wear it for him when they met again. It's definitely Zack inspired because she...hated the color pink. And the ribbon was given to her by Zack.

Cloud carried the sword and the outfit he wore in FF7 because it is apart of who he has become.

Well the original FFVII showed Cloud got the sword from Zack, along with the uniform.

She is a young woman who loved Zack and he was a young man who was best friends with Zack. And those moments spent with Zack were not just precious, but changed them, not just physically but I also think mentally, into the characters I love in FF7.

Yup, that's all true.

Like how AVALANCHE wore pink ribbons after Aerith died, they are keeping her in their memories because she was a beloved nakama. They are deep and persisting bonds. So yeah, I can agree with the comment that Zack and Aerith are inseparable. But you could also say that about AVALANCHE and Aerith, Vincent and Lucrecia, Zack and Cloud, and Aerith and Cloud.

Eh, not really. Aerith didn't date everyone in AVALANCHE for several years and fall in love with them.

And Cloud and Aerith didn't date either.

Which is why a Clerith like me can say Cloud still loves Aerith after her death. Of course, someone else can also say that Cloud moved onto Tifa, keeping those memories of Aerith with him. I think that is one of the main areas contested in LTDs and that is why some Cleriths might insist that CxT or AxZ are "platonic" by nature.

Well clearly Cloud loves Aerith as a special person to his heart and a close friend, but we're talking about romance here. The romantic love he has, has been clearly shown as going to Tifa. Platonic would be more akin to Cloud and Aerith if anything.

 

[Zee]

Well clearly you do since you said it was his crystal and said all the crystals embody someone personal to the heroes

No, I said some had crystals, some had personal references.

No, it's not that we need spoonfed proof, it's just that we need logic.

How is flowers + green materia =\= logically an Aeris reference though? Again, I could understand if it was the materia and nothing else, but if they are showing something associated with Aeris, then I think it's not that big of a stretch for someone to go, "Oh, hey, that materia kinda looks like Holy." I'm not saying it absolutley has to be Holy but the link becomes pretty evident in the last scene.

New topic: instead of flowers and green materia Cloud walks into a bar that looks awfully familiar to 7th Heaven holding a beer bottle. Discuss.

 

[Celes Chere]

See, I'd love to play the compilations if I had the money. Otherwise, I would've just jumped on youtube and take a look at the scenes. I'm just a bit iffy about Crisis Core because I heard SE rehashed a few FF7 scenes. And that Genesis ruined Sephiroth. But I still want to play it and decide for myself.
I can understand why someone might not give something a chance. People, like my brother, will say the entirety of a series sucks if the ending is horrible. Something like the compilation can ruin the fondness a person has for FF7. Like, I've read comments in the CxA forum that they didn't like AC or DoC, because they would've liked to interpret the ending of FF7 something like: All the humans died because humans are the greatest threat to the planet. That's why we only see Red XIII.
Things like that.

Well, that's different then. That's a good reason not to play a game, but I still don't think you should try and debate the content within the game, without actually playing it.

I didn't know her outfit was Zack-inspired but here we go. ^^; I think Aerith wears pink and a ribbon because it is apart of who she has become. Cloud carried the sword and the outfit he wore in FF7 because it is apart of who he has become. She is a young woman who loved Zack and he was a young man who was best friends with Zack. And those moments spent with Zack were not just precious, but changed them, not just physically but I also think mentally, into the characters I love in FF7.

Ah, sorry. I guess I maybe needed a spoiler tag for that? X_x But very good answer, and I agree with you. However, though Aerith has changed, I still believe that Zack is the man she loves. That has been shown clearly in the compilation, imo.

Like how AVALANCHE wore pink ribbons after Aerith died, they are keeping her in their memories because she was a beloved nakama.

Now, that's different. No-one knew that Aerith's ribbon was a gift from Zack, or that she promised to wear pink for him. Aerith on the other hand, wore Zack's gift even after he died, and continue to wear pink for the next time they meet. The bonds in these two situations are very different. I don't see how after all Aerith and Zack went through, that it could be considered a friendship. The same goes for Cloud and Tifa. They've formed such strong bonds that have never been proven to fade, and yet people insist Cloud and Aerith are so weak that they would throw away their past loves after a mere week of knowing one another? And technically, Aerith never knew who Cloud really was in the first place, and Cloud never opened his heart to her the way he did to Tifa. I don't see how that equals out to love.

instead of flowers and green materia Cloud walks into a bar that looks awfully familiar to 7th Heaven holding a beer bottle. Discuss.

-sigh- To answer your other responses, just please re-read my other post very carefully, lol. It just doesn't make sense in the game. Also, Firi talking about a child-like dream and Cloud saying "maybe he wished it on a star" seems pretty Tifa-like to me.

 

[Makoeyes987]

No, I said some had crystals, some had personal references.

You totally said crystals, but okay.

Yes, the characters have personal references to other people in their back stories and pasts. So again, Aerith being included isn't anything special. She's there. As is Tifa. And Barret.

How is flowers + green materia =\= logically an Aeris reference though? Again, I could understand if it was the materia and nothing else, but if they are showing something associated with Aeris, then I think it's not that big of a stretch for someone to go, "Oh, hey, that materia kinda looks like Holy." I'm not saying it absolutley has to be Holy but the link becomes pretty evident in the last scene.

Where are you equating the crystal as being connected to the flowers? Squall's feather isn't connected to his crystal either. You're taking two totally independent plot points and references and trying to smash them together in order to make one the other. Cloud walks into a field of flowers, which are a reference to FFVII/Aerith, and goes back to the world of FFVII. Period. His crystal however, isn't the White Materia. It's never stated as such, is not even the same size as it, and it would be an awfully big reference to not even spell out if it were.

The link that exists are the flowers which serve as a reference to Aerith and FFVII. That's all. That's the fact. And they also serve as a link to Rinoa and Squall's place they'd meet up again as well.

New topic: instead of flowers and green materia Cloud walks into a bar that looks awfully familiar to 7th Heaven holding a beer bottle. Discuss.

 

[Zee]

Regardless of whether the materia represents Aeris or the FF7 world, it would still have to be Holy. The only other materia of significance in the game was the Black materia, and it's clearly not that.

This topic bores me now. Help me pick out shoes. I like these and these.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Regardless of whether the materia represents Aeris or the FF7 world, it would still have to be Holy. The only other materia of significance in the game was the Black materia, and it's clearly not that.

Not all crystals have to be one specific tell-tale object that represents some plot point in the game. Bartz's crystal is a generic looking crystal shard which could be any of the numerous crystal shards they collected as Warriors of Light.

Cecil's crystal isn't a particular crystal either. It's just one of the many crystals that were specific plot points in the story of FFIV. It could be ANY crystal. A crystal from the surface of the planet, an underworld crystal, or even one of the crystals from the moon. Hell, the crystals themselves did nothing.

Your logic of equating each crystal as something that's a tell-tale object from the original game is flawed because not all of the crystals of Dissidia are. They're just generic nods or references to each past story.