So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

Who does Cloud love?

  • Aerith

    Votes: 20 14.2%
  • Tifa

    Votes: 121 85.8%

  • Total voters
    141
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Kikyou

just a fleeting memory
AKA
M-Mira, crackitlackin, Izaya Orihara, SAILOR NARU, Sharon Rainsworth, Mara, Brosuke Hanamura, Commissioner Gordon, Santa Claus, Lenneth Valkyrie
For a moment, I thought Silent Chaos identified Mako as a female. :excited:

EDIT: And those GIFs... I love you gaiz. Rly. <3333
 
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Kikyou

just a fleeting memory
AKA
M-Mira, crackitlackin, Izaya Orihara, SAILOR NARU, Sharon Rainsworth, Mara, Brosuke Hanamura, Commissioner Gordon, Santa Claus, Lenneth Valkyrie

Kikyou

just a fleeting memory
AKA
M-Mira, crackitlackin, Izaya Orihara, SAILOR NARU, Sharon Rainsworth, Mara, Brosuke Hanamura, Commissioner Gordon, Santa Claus, Lenneth Valkyrie

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
*coughs*

Anyways, about that LT of FFVII :awesome:

Does anyone find this statement particularly ironic, regarding koibito now?

FF_G said:
Agreed. Context is what matters. You do realize that this is my site you are bitching about, right? My site which has not been updated in a month of Sundays.

Context, again, is what matters here. I was told by several reliable sources that koibito can mean "a person who is loved". Is that not what a sweetheart is? It actually makes sense if you plug it into Tifa's quote: Tifa is like a mother, one who is loved by many, and an ally in battle.

However, it does not make sense when you plug it into Aerith's statement in that way, you are right. So, you have to take the context into account. Aerith's statement was direct. Tifa's statement was vague as hell.

When kanji is used, the meaning is "the one who does the loving", but it is unknown if that person's love is returned.

The "true" definition, as I have been told multiple times, is "lover" or "BF/GF". If you want to be more vague, it can mean "a person who loves". From what I understand, no one in Japan uses koibito for the word "sweetheart".

So, regardless of the meaning stated in some generic dictionary, the word isn't used that way in Japanese culture. You can't just go around spouting that you know Japanese perfectly without taking culture into consideration, which is why I have asked native speakers for their input. That is what you will find on my page, not someone who took a few years of Japanese and considers themselves a pro at the language.

I don't know, you tell me-- which one is it? Like I said, Tifa's statement is incredibly vague, so how can we get direct answers from something like that?

And, yes, a lover/sweetheart is someone who is loved romantically. However, it says nothing about mutual feelings when you use the words "a person who is loved", which is one of the meanings of koibito. Again, how do we know which should truly be used in Tifa's statement?

I'm...seriously laughing my ass off here. So apparently context matters, and in regards to Tifa...it's..incredibly vague and there's no context?

And now all of a sudden Aerith's use of the word no longer signifies that Cloud felt the same way regarding Aerith as a "koibito?"
 

Kikyou

just a fleeting memory
AKA
M-Mira, crackitlackin, Izaya Orihara, SAILOR NARU, Sharon Rainsworth, Mara, Brosuke Hanamura, Commissioner Gordon, Santa Claus, Lenneth Valkyrie

OneWingedDemon

NOT AMUSED
So maybe it was supposed to be Mr. Donalds. See she meant to type "Mr Donalds" and accidentally typed "WacDonalds (the Japanese version of McDonalds)"... yeah the letters are so close to each other, I can see that... in fact I've done that several times. I meant to type Burger King, but I typed "Wuger King, the Japanese version of Burger King" like 10 times. I do it all the time.
Uhh...no. Actually, that is not a typo at all. If you go back and look at their threads (unless they're gone) then you'll see that in the beginning while the pretend Wapanesers were pretending to be somethin they are not and holding interviews in non-existent places, they've always referred to it as WcDonalds. They called it the Japanese version of McDonalds. That wasn't a typo until everything went public and people called them on being idiots who didn't speak a lick of actual Japanese but watched a lot fo anime instead.

The person probably thought WcDonalds was what they did call it cause it was on inuyasha. Or whatever.

The point is, it was never treated as a typo. That's what they're saying now to save face. Too bad it's too late.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Uhh...no. Actually, that is not a typo at all. If you go back and look at their threads (unless they're gone) then you'll see that in the beginning while the pretend Wapanesers were pretending to be somethin they are not and holding interviews in non-existent places, they've always referred to it as WcDonalds. They called it the Japanese version of McDonalds. That wasn't a typo until everything went public and people called them on being idiots who didn't speak a lick of actual Japanese but watched a lot fo anime instead.

The person probably thought WcDonalds was what they did call it cause it was on inuyasha. Or whatever.

The point is, it was never treated as a typo. That's what they're saying now to save face. Too bad it's too late.

LOL you fell into the same trap I did. :monster:

She was kidding. :P

Anyways, I'm still reeling from the "koibito" backpedal here.
 

OneWingedDemon

NOT AMUSED
Well, I read the thread over at PH, and Quex did give them the benefit of the doubt, which I think is simply ridiculous.

ALSO, LMAO @ FFG thing.



FFG, what happened to "bito is slang for hito" and doesn't mean lover and can be used as a general adjective? Hmm?


"So, no, koibito isn't just used to describe people in a relationship, it is used as a general adjective as well."
-- FFG

"Koi= romantic love; bito= person (slang for hito)." -- FFG

"However, koi bito written in kanji (as it is in Reunion Files), is simply "the person who loves"" -- FFG

....I thought it was the person who was loved? Just a general adjective? PICK ONE, FFG. Better yet, stop talking out of your ass. Your pathetic flip-flopping is not only pathetic, but also completely transparent. LOL, slang for hito..:awesome:

Then later in her "essays" she gets some other idiot who claims that "standpoint and position" actually mean point of view. So guys, the ACTUAL translation is: There are many dimensions to Tifa's point of view. She is like a mother, is a lover and an ally.

Barring the nonsensical translation, it fits right in with their view of Tifa: really a schizo who THINKS she helped AVALANCHE and is mother to those kids, and lover to Cloud, but the truth is they all think she smells.

Also, I noticed FFG has changed things since last I read that. LOL
Does anyone have screens from before? Her backpedaling is hilarious.
 
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I Am Not Me

The Mean Clack
AKA
Mei, Koibito, Stalker, Little Dude, Nami
Mako said:
Anyways, I'm still reeling from the "koibito" backpedal here.

Wasn't there a Clerith sig somewhere that attempted on snark? I saw it somewhere in... I just forgot. It was a forum with pink.

It says "Koibito = Lovers ... Only applicable to Tifa" or something. Ironic much? :awesome:

I also remember reading on YT comments that Clotis were backpedaling on a lot of claims, including the koibito claim. I'm curious as to where these Clotis are and why we haven't heard from any of them here and in other places. :monster:

Why does it feel like a lot of Cloti encounters are being invented these days?

Daddy Ryu said:
Which one, AshkEnte, or the summoning of Larry, younger brother of Nyalathathotep?

IDK, both?

Over at pink hell.

...I'm guessing they made a new Tifa forum to bash Tifa in? Is there even a Tifa thread in which they don't bash Tifa? I CBA to navigate through pink walls.

::Snarls at nice people::

They're not all nice people though. Some of them are lovers. :awesome:

We don't, but certain pinkers apparently do. The Cloti can never seem to be located for questioning or reducation, tho...

I think these Clotis might be your secret flunkies or something, Daddy. :monster: Just bring them out already.


OHMYLOL :awesome: Hahahahaha... Cerberus/Squall! I'd totally ship that. XDDDDDD
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
And I'm gonna have to call bullshits here again, since this is tying into that blasphemous Lifestream White translation. It's obnoxious. See this is why people need to actual read what's written instead of knee jerking and spewing crap out, raising hell and throwing accusations for no reason.

Anastar said:
Furthermore, RF translated "koibito" as sweetheart. Therefore, that's the most likely translation of "koibito" in CoLW. If SE translates CoLW as "Cloud is Aerith's sweetheart", then it's safe to say that they were girlfriend/boyfriend during the game.

Lastly, that cannot be compared to what's said in RF about Tifa. In the first place, Nomura's quote says that he's talking about Tifa's characteristics, not her role in the movie. For that matter, the movie doesn't even portray her as Cloud's sweetheart, so how can it mean that? In the second place, Nomura didn't use Cloud's name, and Cloud's name isn't used anywhere on that page. So to think it mean that Cloud is Tifa's sweetheart is pure assumption. In the third place, Saeki tells us that part of the Japanese used makes it possible for his statement to be referring to FFVII as well as AC/ACC. In that case, it could easily be referring to Cloud's crush on her as kid, or Johnny's crush on her, or Rude's crush on her - all of which were made obvious in FFVII.

Goddamnit, this lie is frustrating, and I'm sick and tired of the backpedaling and butchering here. I'm gonna quote:

Though there&#8217;s been some debate about whether these words were used to refer to Tifa&#8217;s traits or to her roles, the word that became &#8220;dimensions&#8221; in the official translation was &#8220;tachiba,&#8221; meaning such things as &#8220;position&#8221; or &#8220;situation.&#8221; Basically, it refers to actualized, lived aspects of someone&#8217;s life, so &#8220;role&#8221; would make the most sense.

So, that leaves us then to identify who she&#8217;s like a mother to, is a close ally in battle to, and is a lover/girlfriend/desired person to. We know she&#8217;s like a mother to Marlene and Denzel, and is a close ally in battle to the rest of AVALANCHE. That leaves her to be a koibito to someone. Who else could it be but Cloud?

"Tachiba" means situations and/or positions. Actualization into reality. A third person, creator statement that is defining what she's done in her roles within the actual story of AC from Nomura's perspective. If you're gonna start trying to talk down and state what the Japanese sentence is stating, actually know what you're talking about. I don't know how many times hito, and dozens of other translators have repeated this. Hiding behind the "official" translation of the Reunion Files where it calls Rosso the Crimson of the Tsviets A MAN is ridiculous. The book is typo'd and mistranslated in english.

If she's taking up the role of a lover/sweetheart/fish lady then there has to be someone she's fulfilling that role for. If context is so important, then it should be obvious who that person is. It's a statement from Nomura regarding Tifa's actualized character.

Now let's jump to Lifestream White. Where Aerith called Cloud her koibito. This is THIRD PERSON RESTRICTED narrative. She (Aerith) is calling Cloud, her koibito/sweetheart/beloved/lover/fish person. Now if you can't spot the difference between Nomura talking, vs. Aerith, then you have schism with reality. An out of universe statement from a creator of a franchse =/= an in-universe thought from a character in the franchise.

Stop comparing apples and oranges.

The "context" is not the same, despite the two words being the same. Since context is now suddenly so important regarding a translation, please for God's sake, take your own advice and apply it here.

Aerith is not the director, or writer of FFVII or the Compilation. I think Aerith's awesome and all but I don't think she exists in reality or is breaking the 4th wall.

In contrast, CoLW *specifically* says that Cloud is Aerith's sweetheart. Nomura didn't say that about Tifa.

Wrong. Lifestream White *specifically* tells us that Aerith thinks of Cloud as a "sweetheart/beloved/lover/whatever damn synonym you want to use for koibito and be anal about." You need to stop focusing on these words in isolation and deliberately cutting them out of their context. It's misleading and wrong.

And why are you pinning that on us alone? The Cloti's who translated CoLW did the same thing. While Nomura's statement about Tifa was the only statement using koibito, Cloti's insisted that it could only mean a mutual relationship. Now, they're translating CoLW as "beloved", which does not necessarily mean a mutual relationship. "Beloved" can also mean one-sided. So if you wanna bitch about us, please bitch about what the Cloti's did, too

Lover could also mean one-sided! So could sweetheart! What the fuck? It has nothing to do with the word, and everything to do with the context and who's saying it.

There's no vast, right wing, Cloti conspiracy here. The word was chosen because of its elegance and narrative tone in regards to Aerith's thoughts and dialogue. No one fucking bitched about our use of the word "beauteous" in regards to describing Sephiroth's appearance in the story, yet I love how people are pissing vinegar over the word "beloved."

You need to take off the tin-foil hat and realize that the argument has NOTHING to do with whether or not "beloved" can mean a one-sided relationship, and EVERYTHING to do with the entire STORY not being equitable to a creator rapping about how Tifa is like Cloud's lover in a work of the Compilation. Quit turning hard work done by someone into a fucking pissing contest that not only insults the hard work of the people who brought the damn thing to you in the first place, but missing the entire point of the debate.

Hito and I seriously should've left the word as "sweetheart" to rickroll the fandom, apparently. LOL hilarious. :monster:
 
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Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Holy bizzaro world, Batman. I thought FFG would be pissed and Anastar would just not get involved or would be all right... it was the other way around. XD

Anyways made a post, I see that Anastar and FFG disagree on some things... I guess... that explains where some of the inconsistencies come from. I probably won't take it any further than this... as much as I know what I'm trying to say ... it's not worth getting everyone upset over. As my signature says:

"It's brave to keep on fighting for what you believe, but I found it takes more courage to be kind. "
 
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
No shit, they disagree.

Because they totally would admit taking a hypocritical position and backpedaling on it. :awesome:
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster

That was hilarious.

I am a female.

This explains so much.

ALSO:

I don't understand why all fight tooth and nail that sweetheart is better than beloved. I mean, sweetheart seems like such a weak word with multiple meanings, where beloved is stronger and really only means one thing. I just...don't get it. You'd think they would be happy with what they got and try to use that, but for some reason they want to disprove the stronger evidence and go for the weaker because it helps their case more? What?
 
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Isabella

Your Mom
If they're so sure Cloud and Aerith were boyfriend/girlfriend in FF7, would they please point out where? They went on one date, maybe two if we're exceedingly generous and give them the chat in the park. They never kissed, never really touched except after she died, they never confessed any feelings to each other, Ultimania says Cloud was "none the wiser" to Aerith's (and Tifa's) feelings for him. So how can they take "Cloud and Aerith were koibitos LOL" literally? Where's the relationship?
 

Kikyou

just a fleeting memory
AKA
M-Mira, crackitlackin, Izaya Orihara, SAILOR NARU, Sharon Rainsworth, Mara, Brosuke Hanamura, Commissioner Gordon, Santa Claus, Lenneth Valkyrie
Stop comparing apples and oranges.

But they aren't the same type of fruit. :aah:

And BTW, it takes courage to backpedal. You don't know how many walls or people you'll hit.

And of course Aly and FFG disagree on a few things. They're different individuals. It's not like they are soulmates that know each others each and every thought. (Sorry to burst your yuribubbles.)
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Shut up Isabella, that's not the point. The point is that they were, and context says so. And "beloved" clearly isn't romantic enough; it could be one sided. Being a one-sided lover is impossible.

@M-Mira

"And BTW, it takes courage to backpedal. You don't know how many walls or people you'll hit."

That actually made me chuckle.
 

Gale

Read My Mind
The Love Triangle aspect of Final Fantasy VII is usually the part of this fandom I hate the most, but that essay was well written enough that I feel like I can acknowledge it this one time. After this I think I'll go back to viewing the whole thing as a waste of time and energy, as I don't really prioritize how fans view fictional relationships.

The essay seemed to be the most objective analysis I've read regarding the subject yet, even though it won't stop smug and rabid fans of both sides from ripping at each others' throats. Major points for avoiding the "TIFA WAS CLOUD'S CHILDHOOD CRUSH" argument, because we all know in real life your "romantic" feelings as a teenager follow you for the rest of your life. The evidence for the Cloti pairing from the end of the game and later compilation seems fairly indisbutable anyway. Though it's nice to see the argument made without downplaying the position Aerith had in Cloud's life and the potential (albeit unrealized) for a relationship had she not died.

So yeah, good job making me appreciate the part of this fandom I find the biggest waste of time. First respectable piece of LTD literature I've encountered since 1997. Probably the last too.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I appreciate your comments and statements. That was some great critique Squall_of_SeeD would like to hear. You should post that on the front page for him to see and stuff! ^^
 

paoo

&#9829;
If they're so sure Cloud and Aerith were boyfriend/girlfriend in FF7, would they please point out where? They went on one date, maybe two if we're exceedingly generous and give them the chat in the park. They never kissed, never really touched except after she died, they never confessed any feelings to each other, Ultimania says Cloud was "none the wiser" to Aerith's (and Tifa's) feelings for him. So how can they take "Cloud and Aerith were koibitos LOL" literally? Where's the relationship?

And then Cloud and Aerith is supposed to have this "eternal romantic true love" after she dies? For how long did they exactly know eachother..? And even more, Cloud wasn't being himself during the time Aerith was alive. Sure, Cloud may have gotten a "You don't know what you have, until it's gone" moment, but where does he exactly show romantic interest in Aerith, if he was "none the wiser" to both of them in the beginning? That kind of ruins the.. "proof". Then Real!Cloud and Tifa get into the picture, and it's confirmed that they "realized their feelings for eachother in the end of the story."
 
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