So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[aniron]

I really should go to bed, but this quote bugs me a bit. Cloud and Tifa don't argue all the time. How many arguments do we see them having? One or two? For a lot of CoT they're getting along just fine and have silly little conversations (which could easily mean the silly babble that two romantic partners have when they're alone). Cloud and Tifa both have trouble opening up when something is bothering them, so when Cloud has his crisis it's a challenge for both of them to overcome. But the thing is, they do overcome it and are still together two years later. I just don't see two people who are constantly at each other's throats the way that quote describes.

As for "real love, real understanding," isn't everything each of them does essentially for the sake of the other? Isn't everything Cloud does in ACC essentially about protecting Tifa and the children? Isn't everything Tifa does about understanding Cloud's problem and being there for him?

Yet this is precisely how Clerii see Cloud and Tifa's relationship.

Overall, Cloud and Tifa have very few moments together in Advent Children/Complete. Cloud actually spends more time communing with the spirit of Aerith during the movie than he does in Tifa's presence. Whenever Aerith is seen, she appears in light and/or white space, wearing pink as usual, which makes her an entrancing presence full of light. On the other hand, in many scenes when Cloud and Tifa are shown together on screen, everything seems mired in darkness, as shown in the screenshot below. The Seventh Heaven itself is portrayed in dismal tones. Both Cloud and Tifa wear black. The interaction between Cloud and Tifa at the Seventh Heaven is also quite harsh and strained.

http://clerith.com/CT%20Relation%20AC.htm

How more bias can you get?...

 

[Roger]

"Cloud is no longer alone because he has been reunited with Aerith and Zack."


I, I don't even...

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Several pages later and I'm still banging my head. I think I may have dented my forehead, to be honest.

The problem "pinkers" have isn't that they can't follow compilation--is that they can and they REFUSE to acknowledge it, so rather than addressing it and accepting it logically with the clause of "ok, yeah Cloud x Tifa are canon, but here's why I think Cloud and Aerith would have been better...", they twist and contort until they have an answer that defies logic and common sense and completely scrapes backasswards over the narrative and creator's own statements. It's scary in it's single mindedness. *shudder*

Also, this:

No one wants a couple around who argue all the time and need two kids there to help them "work things out". People want to see real love, real understanding.

is possibly the most fucked up and retarded thing I've ever read in regards to the LTD. This person has obviously NEVER had a real relationship, because yeah, only through adversity do you CONNECT as a couple and develop that REAL love and REAL understanding. There is NOTHING to understand with fluffy pink hearts shooting out your asses all the time, and aside from being fucking stupid, it's a relationship completely devoid of "everlasting" anything because there is no trial-by-fire or tempering of that bond, because that bond is never tested. A relationship like that would snap and break at the first sign of trouble. People are fucking numb.

And as a parent, I can tell you right now that YES! Emphatically YES your kids help you work out your shit.

What these pinkers want is Twilight fangasm romance without those horrid "Real Life" responsibilities because they can't handle that themselves. Self-insert Marysuing when fucking a pink vibrator while reading fanfic and calling out Cloud's name does NOT make you an expert on the LTD, facts and most especially relationships.

/rant

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Honestly, why do you want to bring up things that "could" happen in a fictional work or IRL when discussing a fantasy game? No one wants a couple around who argue all the time and need two kids there to help them "work things out". People want to see real love, real understanding.

Wtf? Yeah, yeah I do, that's why I hate Twilight and it's utter lack of any real difficulties in the romance. Locke and Celes had some issues (LOL RACHEL) before they got together, Garnet and Zidane had to deal with the fact he was supposed to

Spoiler

destroy the world

, and as I recall, Tidus was pretty dang pissed at the rest of the party as well as Yuna about the fact she was basically on

Spoiler

a death mission

.

Oh yeah I FORGOT THESE PEOPLE HAVE NO REAL ISSUES SO IT'S OKAY BECAUSE LOCKE WILL ALWAYS LOVE RACHEL AND ONLY RACHEL, GARNET LOVES STEINER CAUSE HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY ISSUES RLY AND TIDUS PREFERS RIKKU ANYWAYS BECAUSE NO SUMMONER WORRIES THAR.

no rly crazy folks, you can go take your meds at any time.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Isn't it about the right size for Black Materia?

It's not the right color but, it's the right size... isn't it? Maybe a TINY bit bigger but... I think if either of the two was correct, it'd be closer to black materia than white.

In FF7 it's the size of a grapefruit, in Dissidia it's the size of your skull! 0_0. I always took that as clear-cut proof it's not the Black Materia, since it's already in Dissidia in another fashion. Hey, if the Black Materia increased in size from FF7, why not the White Materia?

 

[Ladyofmoonlight]

Honestly, why do you want to bring up things that "could" happen in a fictional work or IRL when discussing a fantasy game? No one wants a couple around who argue all the time and need two kids there to help them "work things out". People want to see real love, real understanding.

One thing I've grown to dislike about the CoC side is how their arguments are offensive to real relationships, such as my own relationship with my husband. It's hard to hear someone out when their arguments against CxT could just as well be applied to arguments against my marriage. Nik and I went through a down period, he suffered from depression, there was a love-triangle when we first got together (or at least a girl that kept hitting on him and people rooting for her), and hey we even adopted a kid instead of getting pregnant. We have a happy and full life together, are very happy and don't have any regrets, and I honestly feel bad for anyone who would look at what we've gone through as a couple and say that we make an awful pair and that we'd be happier with other people simply because we weren't smiling 100% of the time.

I read CoT and what I saw was a real relationship involving very real, very human people. NOT fantasy, but traumatized people trying to live their lives and hold it together. And you know what? They were doing a damn good job. They were laughing and making jokes, having silly conversations, and both were trying their damnedest to make a good home for themselves, each other, and the children they'd chosen to raise together. I see a relationship in crisis, sure, but Cloud is trying hard to overcome his past and move on with the future, and there is a decidedly upbeat swing at the end, right before he leaves (which is supposed to be there as his leaving is supposed to be abrupt and a bit shocking).

So, in closing: I can totally related to CxT, I have no idea how you could see either no relationship or a thoroughly bad relationship after reading CoT, yes kids can make you work out your crap together, real relationships do involve problems, and I personally see a considerable amount of hope in their relationship because, having read the text, you can see that there is a real connection between them and they're trying very hard to work out the kinks.

Also, sleeping men are fun to mess with. I too am considering asking Nik something odd late at night. Though he tends to only respond with "whhaaaa? whaaaazzat? *snoooore*"

 

[Makoeyes987]

In FF7 it's the size of a grapefruit, in Dissidia it's the size of your skull! 0_0. I always took that as clear-cut proof it's not the Black Materia, since it's already in Dissidia in another fashion. Hey, if the Black Materia increased in size from FF7, why not the White Materia?

Because it's never even called the White Materia

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Because it's never even called the White Materia

And yet it would make sense. Color and size aside, the White Materia would fit as the representative Crystal of FF7, given it's benevolent nature and association with Holy and light.

 

[Splintered]

No one wants a couple around who argue all the time and need two kids there to help them "work things out". People want to see real love, real understanding.

Someone doesn't live in real life. And, apparently, doesn't watch AC/C or play Final Fantasy VII either. Tifa does understand Cloud, probably better than anyone. Her love and understanding brings him out of a fucking coma. Just because she encourages and scolds him to kick his ass back into shape doesn't mean they have problems all the time. More than likely, they do live happily for the majority of them being together. What we saw was a crisis of Cloud's guilt (which is gone now) and a planetary epidemic (which for the most part, is better now). The interview statement didn't mean that they constantly fight and are dysfunctional.

It means, yes, they will have problems on occasion. All couples to. And yes, they will work it out together as a family unit, because their problems impact more than just Cloud and Tifa alone, but their "children."

It's called "working things out" in the real world, most couples have to do it. Love won't magically cure everything or all your problems. What do people expect, that Cloud&Tifa's sex will somehow stop geostigma from killing people and their own kid? Or bring back the one's that Cloud watched die? Problems will always occur despite anyone's best effort, the thing that you are suppose to do is see it through with the one you love/your family. And that's exactly what Cloud and Tifa did.

As for realism and fantasy, what kind of fantasy has ur d00d living on in a house with a love interest, starting up a small business together, being the fatherly unit of a family you are raising together with another woman?

Worst. Fantasy. Ever.

Spoiler: No love and understanding here guise

 

[Makoeyes987]

And yet it would make sense. Color and size aside, the White Materia would fit as the representative Crystal of FF7, given it's benevolent nature and association with Holy and light.

That's based on the assumption that all the crystals are based on some personal item unique to each character, which is not the case. They're all non-personal, yet memorable items based from the game they come from. A display sphere from FFX, a shard of magicite from FFVI, a Crystal shard from FFV, a crystal from FFIV, and the like.

You're trying to attach meaning to something that is left purposefully ambiguous just like every other crystal. Sephiroth's Black Materia is specifically named as such and performs the same function as it did in FFVII.

Cloud's crystal has never been named any specific materia, nor is it even shown functioning as materia in the first place. It only looks like one. It's a crystal. A crystal which is a portion of Cosmos' power.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I don't see what the big deal is with the Dissidia materia... Maybe I'm missing something, but what does it really matter which materia it is? I don't personally think it's Holy--because even in FFVII by the materia standards it was bity--but who cares if someone else wants to think it is. Holy isn't representative of Aerith--her mother (y'know Ilfana, the chick hot for Cloud in CoLW...yeah, her) was the original holder of that materia--and gave it to her child because it was a link to her Cetra heritage. Holy is more representative of the Ancients than of the individual. But **shrug** if someone sees it as a Holy call back to Aerith, that changes NOT A DAMN THING as far as the LTD is concerned. IMO...but that doesn't amount to much

 

[DrakeClawfang]

You're trying to attach meaning to something that is left purposefully ambiguous just like every other crystal. Sephiroth's Black Materia is specifically named as such and performs the same function as it did in FFVII.

Damn. How dare I speculate on something ambiguous in an attempt to explain it! I have some nerve.

And all the Crystals are left ambiguous, true, and there's room to speculate on their meaning too. Cecil's Crystal could be the Crystal Golbez gave him on the Moon, Tidus's Crystal could be a Jecht Sphere, or that Sphere Yuna made, Terra's Magicite could be Maduin...I'm not saying these things are certain, but the possibility is there.

And seriously, if people don't speculate, we'd never know what the hell Squall's Crystal is. I'm still fuzzy on that, apparently it's a combination Draw Point-Feather-Corkscrew-Gunblade-Screwdriver-Wing sort of thing, or whatever. I guess it's a Swiss Army Crystal.

I don't see what the big deal is with the Dissidia materia... Maybe I'm missing something, but what does it really matter which materia it is? I don't personally think it's Holy--because even in FFVII by the materia standards it was bity--but who cares if someone else wants to think it is. Holy isn't representative of Aerith--her mother (y'know Ilfana, the chick hot for Cloud in CoLW...yeah, her) was the original holder of that materia--and gave it to her child because it was a link to her Cetra heritage. Holy is more representative of the Ancients than of the individual. But **shrug** if someone sees it as a Holy call back to Aerith, that changes NOT A DAMN THING as far as the LTD is concerned. IMO...but that doesn't amount to much

True, but when most fans think of the Holy Materia, I doubt Ifalna is what comes to mind. For the LTD, it doesn't mean much true, but it's still an allusion to Aerith within the game, just as Dissidia alludes to a lot of characters.

 

[Kikyou]

I don't see what the big deal is with the Dissidia materia... Maybe I'm missing something, but what does it really matter which materia it is?

Word. Who cares what color or size it is. Balls are balls.

 

[Splintered]

I don't see what the big deal is with the Dissidia materia... Maybe I'm missing something, but what does it really matter which materia it is? I don't personally think it's Holy--because even in FFVII by the materia standards it was bity--but who cares if someone else wants to think it is. Holy isn't representative of Aerith--her mother (y'know Ilfana, the chick hot for Cloud in CoLW...yeah, her) was the original holder of that materia--and gave it to her child because it was a link to her Cetra heritage. Holy is more representative of the Ancients than of the individual. But **shrug** if someone sees it as a Holy call back to Aerith, that changes NOT A DAMN THING as far as the LTD is concerned. IMO...but that doesn't amount to much

Yeah, maybe it's just me concentrating on more interesting things in Dissidia (like beating down Squall multiple times) but I never bothered to care who's materia it was because it was never of consequence. It didn't strike me that it's OMGHOLYMATERIA, but at the same time I wouldn't be shocked and surprised. I mean, he was like "blahblah Firion, blah, oh my crystal" *continues to mosey*

As far as importance goes, it's not like he grabbed the materia with shaking hands, sniffed it to catch the faint wiff of his onetwulove, then proceed to rub it all across his body as tears poured down his face. If he did, then maybe I would be interested. But then again, I haven't played Shade Impulse. If it happens there, feel free to correct me.

I feel like people are trying to shove meaning into things that don't exist, and quite frankly, it's annoying. Yes, I did think Aerith was presented by the flowers, but no I didn't think it was absolute proof CxA forevers. FFVII related romance in Dissidia doesn't exist. It's not real. Not in the materia, not in living for Zax, not in childhood star promises. Not even in Cloud's alarmingly homoambigous advances towards Firion (as per Cloud's tradition).

You know what is real in Dissidia? Playing against Squall over and over, kicking his ass. And that's the way it should be.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

True, but when most fans think of the Holy Materia, I doubt Ifalna is what comes to mind. For the LTD, it doesn't mean much true, but it's still an allusion to Aerith within the game, just as Dissidia alludes to a lot of characters.

Yeah, I know, but there are still fans that see pink and think Clerith. Doesn't make 'em right.

Also, allusions are all Aerith ever seems to get. I'll give cookies to anyone that can find me something where Cloud says her name anytime after FFVII in-game. He says "Tifa" like it's the only word he knows sometimes...oh and Zack. He's sexy as hell saying those names. And Vincent...and Sephiroth... Yeah... **blinks** What were we talking about?

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Yeah, I know, but there are still fans that see pink and think Clerith. Doesn't make 'em right.

Also, allusions are all Aerith ever seems to get. I'll give cookies to anyone that can find me something where Cloud says her name anytime after FFVII in-game. He says "Tifa" like it's the only word he knows sometimes...oh and Zack. He's sexy as hell saying those names. And Vincent...and Sephiroth... Yeah... **blinks** What were we talking about?

In Dissidia no one's name is mentioned, but Aerith, Tifa and Zack are all alluded to otherwise.

 

[Dashell]

Dunno if any of you read Heaven's Cloud's posts on CxA, but geeze, she took the words right out of my mouth. I kinda wish I did that... well I did log in there but just to invite her here (I had no other way to contact her) and to tell her thanks. It's nice to know that someone there actually "gets it."

In Dissidia no one's name is mentioned, but Aerith,

Uh.... where?
Not being a smart ass or a jerk BTW, I haven't played the game but I honestly don't remember hearing her name was mentioned.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Damn. How dare I speculate on something ambiguous in an attempt to explain it! I have some nerve.

And all the Crystals are left ambiguous, true, and there's room to speculate on their meaning too. Cecil's Crystal could be the Crystal Golbez gave him on the Moon, Tidus's Crystal could be a Jecht Sphere, or that Sphere Yuna made, Terra's Magicite could be Maduin...I'm not saying these things are certain, but the possibility is there.

And seriously, if people don't speculate, we'd never know what the hell Squall's Crystal is. I'm still fuzzy on that, apparently it's a combination Draw Point-Feather-Corkscrew-Gunblade-Screwdriver-Wing sort of thing, or whatever. I guess it's a Swiss Army Crystal.

And it's also one of the reasons why I'm not going to call any of the crystals ANYTHING. When there is massive ambiguity on nearly all the crystals, and one outright defies any and all explanation, then making guesses at this stage and treating them as anything more than wild speculation is irresponsible.

True, but when most fans think of the Holy Materia, I doubt Ifalna is what comes to mind. For the LTD, it doesn't mean much true, but it's still an allusion to Aerith within the game, just as Dissidia alludes to a lot of characters.

Well, what people think and what SE says it is aren't always the same. A good example is Buster, and how even though it is Cloud's iconic weapon from FF7, it doesn't represent HIM, but Zack.

Quex, link?

 

[Dashell]

Yeah here's the link:
http://z8.invisionfree.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/index.php?showtopic=9686&view=findpost&p=12289062

I agree it was a tad melodramatic, but sometimes people need that

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Uh.... where?
Not being a smart ass or a jerk BTW, I haven't played the game but I honestly don't remember hearing her name was mentioned.

Try reading the entire post. ><

In Dissidia no one's name is mentioned, but Aerith, Tifa and Zack are all alluded to otherwise.

 

[Dashell]

OH I read that wrong. I thought you meant "No one's name is mentioned but Aerith's name IS and Tifa and Zack are alluded to" XD

Okay, yeah I DID read the entire post, I just read it wrong... okay maybe I should go back to bed

 

[Ryushikaze]

And... She's already banned. Yeah, definitely invite HC over here Quex. At the very least, we'll treat her better than she's been getting.
We don't ban people outright for criticizing the forum, at least.

I do love how 'the crystal representing Cloud's world' has to be the Black or White Materia AND NO OTHER, not even just 'a materia durrrr'

Though bringing up the Goddess Materia, let us call it that. Not because it has any relation to the one in FF7, but because it is born of Cosmos and looks like a materia.

 

[aniron]

Yeah here's the link:
http://z8.invisionfree.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/index.php?showtopic=9686&view=findpost&p=12289062

I agree it was a tad melodramatic, but sometimes people need that

That made me think: arn't sane Clerith fans welcomed here? I mean, I dont have any problems with any shippers as long as they're reasonable. Create threads, post fanart etc, I won't say a word in protest.
Variety is a good thing after all.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

So Heaven's Cloud was actually banned? What for, what I miss?

 

[Makoeyes987]

For defying the Hive Mind, ROTFLMAO

Wow. Just...wow. And we're the forum that treats its members and shit badly?

Holy fuck, that's incredible. They just pulled a Shinra. Criticize the pink forum and get a nice tasty ban from Shroudy. That sounds great! A true place to feel welcome and secure.