So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[aniron]

My definition of "neutral" has always been that you don't have an emotional stake in the outcome. You review the evidence in a detached sort of way and formulate what is the most logical explanation.

There, I second this.

The problem with LT is that too many fans (on both sides) are too emotionaly involved.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Some of the members at CxA aren't THAT mean. I know there's no way to say, "Get out of here, you're not wanted." nicer but geez... I felt really, really bad about it even if it wasn't directed at me. I'm glad HC found a more accepting forum for him/her.

I must be lost, what forum did Heaven's Cloud find that was more accepting? Didn't they say they COULDN'T find one that was accepting?

 

[Zee]

Why are people saying HC was banned? She (he?) wasn't.

 

[Winter]

Dude, I get what she's saying but proclaiming that you NEVAR AGREED AND DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING really won't get you buttpats.

I mean shit, if she really felt that way why didn't she make an effort sooner?

I agree with her in most respects but she's such a fucking dramamongerer I can't really give her the praise she thinks she deserves.

EDIT: GIVE ME A SECOND TO BE ON TOPIC I can't find my brain

 

[Raquelborn]

Okay, so something to talk about...

First off, Cloud sleeping with Tifa. I interpreted the "Sleep in your room" as they lived separately. Then it was brought up that Tifa might be sleeping with Cloud because of the "Do you love me scene." However, if he does have a bed in his office, isn't that a pretty good indication that he's not? They put a lot of thought on how Cloud and Tifa live their life and house was set up (Denzel's and Marlene's beds, pictures on the wall, medical books on the desk),it would seem to me that they were purposely illustrating that they slept separately.

Using the principle of Occam's razor, the conclusion that Cloud sleeps in the bed shown in his office requires the least assumptions and is therefore the 'better' of the two. So I'm inclined to feel the same way.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Why are people saying HC was banned? She (he?) wasn't.

Shroudy's mod edit in her post made it sound like she was being banned. So she isn't?

Using the principle of Occam's razor, the conclusion that Cloud sleeps in the bed shown in his office requires the least assumptions and is therefore the 'better' of the two. So I'm inclined to feel the same way.

So Tifa literally stood all night over his bed in the office til' dawn waiting for an answer? That makes sense and requires the least assumptions?

It's not possible for Cloud to also have a bed in his study for when he comes in from deliveries late? Houses do sometimes have more than one bed.

 

[Vendel]

Using the principle of Occam's razor, the conclusion that Cloud sleeps in the bed shown in his office requires the least assumptions and is therefore the 'better' of the two. So I'm inclined to feel the same way.

Not really.

 

[Zee]

Shroudy's mod edit in her post made it sound like she was being banned. So she isn't?

Nope, she's still listed as a member. Hade's Daughter also said that no one was going to be banned.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Ohhhh okay. Guess that's my bad then. Still seems odd the mod would edit her post and be so stern with her for saying all that though. Unless her being that melodramatic or something has happened before in the past and its gotten on other people's nerves.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Using the principle of Occam's razor, the conclusion that Cloud sleeps in the bed shown in his office requires the least assumptions and is therefore the 'better' of the two. So I'm inclined to feel the same way.

That does not satisfactorily account for all the known variables, such as the utter lack of amenities in the office, that it's always called the office, what Mako pointed out, etc.

Remember, Occam's razor isn't just 'the simplest', it's 'of all satisfactory explanations, favor the one with the fewest unknowns or assumptions'.

 

[Winter]

Ohhhh okay. Guess that's my bad then. Still seems odd the mod would edit her post and be so stern with her for saying all that though. Unless her being that melodramatic or something has happened before in the past and its gotten on other people's nerves.

I think the issue was just that it was such a retarded time to declare something like that, and then declare you're ~leaving forever~ It really wasn't contributing to the conversation at all.

I mean she was saying things that generally Zee and I agree with, and she even got on our nerves, lololol.

 

[Zee]

Yeah idk why he edited her post, but I guess it was more of a "Show yourself the exit if you don't wanna be here," rather than BANNAGE.

{makes a post that is actually on topic}

To be quite frank if you are sleeping with someone, or living with them and sharing a bed, usually when you have an argument the reaction is "Go sleep on the couch," not "Go to your room."

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah idk why he edited her post, but I guess it was more of a "Show yourself the exit if you don't wanna be here," rather than BANNAGE.

{makes a post that is actually on topic}

To be quite frank if you are sleeping with someone, or living with them and sharing a bed, usually when you have an argument the reaction is "Go sleep on the couch," not "Go to your room."

My mother has shouted that at my father from time to time, so it's certainly not unheard of.

 

[Makoeyes987]

But his room is his office

It's the same thing.

 

[Zee]

Still, it seems a weird thing for her to say if the creators are trying to get across that they're sleeping together. The only room we actually see them sleeping in has two separate beds so unless they're Lucy and Ricky that doesn't really help either.

 

[Fighter]

No one wants a couple around who argue all the time and need two kids there to help them "work things out". People want to see real love, real understanding.

Really? All those teen dramas/soap operas are choke full of couples who spend more time arguing and fighting than anything else.

To be quite frank if you are sleeping with someone, or living with them and sharing a bed, usually when you have an argument the reaction is "Go sleep on the couch," not "Go to your room."

Actually the original does not specify "your room", it's just "go to room" or something.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Still, it seems a weird thing for her to say if the creators are trying to get across that they're sleeping together. The only room we actually see them sleeping in has two separate beds so unless they're Lucy and Ricky that doesn't really help either.

Um, Zee, you've been told, nay, sledged this before. That is the Children's room where Denzel and Marlene sleep.

Really? All those teen dramas/soap operas are choke full of couple who spend more time arguing and fighting than anything else.

Concita: Umberto! How could you sleep with my identical twin sister with a different face while you were in a COMA! :Slaps:
:Umberto and Concita make out

Actually the original does not specify "your room", it's just "go to room" or something.

Go drink in room is the literal imperative. Could be 'your' 'our' or 'the'. Could even be 'another'.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Guess it should've been..

Tifa: Go drink in the room where you work and keep all your papers for delivering with the tiny bed that you sleep in only when you come in late, not in our bedroom where we sleep together every night because we're a couple and raise a family together!

So people would understand they're a couple that naturally shares a bed since..that's what most couples do.

Because this is Cloud/Tifa... they are NOT a normal couple. At all. Such trivial things like bedroom arrangments need to be emphasized since it's equally possible for them to be platonic roommates and business partners.

 

[Raquelborn]

So Tifa literally stood all night over his bed in the office til' dawn waiting for an answer? That makes sense and requires the least assumptions?

I meant that Cloud's bed being the one that is in his office doesn't actually require any round about assumptions. Cloud and Tifa definitely weren't sleeping in the same bed before Barrett left but Cloud moving from whatever bed he had after Barrett left into Tifa's is an assumption that we have no real indication of ever happening (other than Marlene got her own bed but that doesn't actually say anything about whether Cloud changed his sleeping arrangements as a result).

And for your example of another case when assumptions would be made, it seems more reasonable to me that Tifa, with issues on her mind walked into Cloud's office with a wish to speak, and spoke, rather than there was a significant shift in Cloud's sleeping arrangements which were never really hinted at, as far as I can tell. (Unless you perceive the "do you love me?" scene in itself as a hint but that comes down to each own's interpretation of it).

watch the love of her life sleep? I'd do that for the person I'd love...

And this. I find it hard to believe no one else has ever had the impulse to watch/be near their loved one while they sleep whether they were in the same bed, room or even house, especially if your relationship with them is worrying you.

It's not possible for Cloud to also have a bed in his study for when he comes in from deliveries late? Houses do sometimes have more than one bed.

Well of course, but it feels like an explanation that's, while reasonable, been made to support the 'Cloud and Tifa sleep in the same bed, or at least usally' idea. It's a greater assumption than 'Tifa waited in his room with something on her mind'.

Also notice how two rather large assumptions have been made for Cloud and Tifa sharing a bed as opposed to the one required during the "do you love me?" scene for Cloud sleeping in the bed seen in his office.


EDIT:

That does not satisfactorily account for all the known variables, such as the utter lack of amenities in the office, that it's always called the office, what Mako pointed out, etc.

I take the point but this is Cloud and he isn't the most expressive person. I doubt he has many personal possessions to make a typical looking bedroom. Although, modifications/tools for his bike (IIRC) are in the office along with pictures of his friends, family and so forth and these kinds of things Denzel has in his bedroom (minus the bike stuff).

Remember, Occam's razor isn't just 'the simplest', it's 'of all satisfactory explanations, favor the one with the fewest unknowns or assumptions'.

Well I believe that's what I've kept in mind. See above because I feel more assumptions are made for 'Cloud and Tifa share a bed' than 'Cloud has his own'. But if I've forgotten something I don't mind being pointed out on it.

I also have a feeling a 'couples always or nearly always share a bed' argument will come up which is fine but I am only inclined to think otherwise in Cloud and Tifa's case because of Cloud's bed in his office and how it'd be the simplest conclusion that he sleeps there (I believe).

 

[Isabella]

You don't find it odd that he shows absolutely no surprise at seeing her there? If I woke to find someone in my room talking at me, even a family member, I'd be startled.

 

[Fighter]

To me the idea that Tifa walked into Cloud's office and hovered over his sleeping form asking him questions makes the least sense. Rather creepy. The most natural is that they are in the same bed.

Well I believe that's what I've kept in mind. See above because I feel more assumptions are made for 'Cloud and Tifa share a bed' than 'Cloud has his own'. But if I've forgotten something I don't mind being pointed out on it.

There is only one very straightforward assumption: they are in a relationship. Which is not only proven by a whole bunch of other things but is also heavily hinted at in the novella itself.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Jesus Christ, am I the only one seeing the utter lack of common sense and reality here? That seriously makes sense to you? Seriously? Because this is how it would really happen, Raquel:

~*~​

Cloud: *sleeping soundly in his room in the silent darkness of the night*

Tifa: *slowly opens the door and creeps into the dark room*

Cloud: ZZzzzz...

Tifa: Do you love me?

Cloud: @___@ HI TIFA! Umm...what are you doing here? Is something wrong?

Tifa: Do you love Marlene?

Cloud: ....It's 1am...I don't love anyone this late at night. What the hell do you want?

Tifa: Nothing I just thought I'd ask....

Cloud:...Goodnight. *rolls over*

Tifa: *stares at Cloud until dawn and then walks out*

~*~​

Explain to me how it makes sense for Tifa to not only sneak into Cloud's room and randomly ask him a question, waking him up in his room, but for her to literally just stare at him sleeping all night long until night and then leave so she doesn't notice him. Make that work for me, please.

 

[Raquelborn]

You don't find it odd that he shows absolutely no surprise at seeing her there? If I woke to find someone in my room talking at me, even a family member, I'd be startled.

A best friend or a lover? No. It's happened to me before so my experiences must just must be different?

And again family members have done it to me before too and while I was a little confused at why they were there (Cloud had a puzzled face IIRC) I wasn't jumping out my skin.

And considering Tifa is both a lover and basically a family member to Cloud, that's why I don't find it odd.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

You don't find it odd that he shows absolutely no surprise at seeing her there? If I woke to find someone in my room talking at me, even a family member, I'd be startled.

“Do you love me?”
Cloud woke up, a perplexed look on his face.

That would be my reaction. They're my family, it wouldn't startle me, but if I woke up with them standing over me talking, I'd be confused.

EDIT - Raquelborn beat me to it. ;p

I never got where the whole "they share a bed" thing came from either. Most of the replies here seem to be "well if Tifa did this and they weren't sharing a bed, it'd just be creepy". That Tifa mentions Cloud having his own room I think is a direct statement they don't share a bed.

Explain to me how it makes sense for Tifa to not only sneak into Cloud's room and randomly ask him a question, waking him up in his room, but for her to literally just stare at him sleeping all night long until night and then leave so she doesn't notice him. Make that work for me, please.

Rather than explain, let's rephrase.

Explain to me how it makes sense for Tifa to go into Cloud's room and ask him a question, waking him up in his room, then watch him sleep the rest of the night and leave in the morning so he doesn't notice her.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Again. So Tifa just stood over him, watching him sleep then. That's normal huh? Standing over their bed and watching them sleep, waiting for an answer until morning.