So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Fighter]

The thing is with the CoT line is that we are explicitly told he's blushing. Tifa picks up on his behavior beforehand and makes him blush. With the other scene it's not clear if he's inadvertently showing his personal affection or is he just correcting himself and making a more effective point that everyone is there for Aerith. Her response doesn't help, she just says, "But I'm the only cetra."

Though I can certainly understand how people read romantic tension into that and that's a legitimate way to read it.

Speaking of other non player controlled ZaCloud scenes there is a lot that he says to Tifa later: "No matter what anyone says to me it's your opinion that counts", "Especially you Tifa, you've been so kind to me...", "I'm sorry I could not live up to being 'Cloud'", etc.

 

[Isabella]

But yeah, what always gets me, speaking of things being taken romantically, is not that the pinkers see things as being romantic, but that they deny the possibility of them being seen any other way.

Yeah, I know. Even scenes that have no obvious Aerith connection, such as Cloud standing in the rain looking up at the airship, are seen as Clerith and only Clerith.

Though I can certainly understand how people read romantic tension into that and that's a legitimate way to read it.

Yeah, I didn't mean that was the only way to take it. It's ambiguous, especially the first play-through. But I can see where someone could get a romantic vibe from it.

 

[Fighter]

Another ltd gripe that I have is how clerii have this notion that Cloud drops everything and comes running to save Aerith always and naturally they try to contrast that with his behavior in CoT/AC with Tifa. Despite the fact that he's just as scared to go after Aerith when she leave and only goes after Tifa tells him to.

 

[Dashell]

Another ltd gripe that I have is how clerii have this notion that Cloud drops everything and comes running to save Aerith always and naturally they try to contrast that with his behavior in CoT/AC with Tifa.

he uh... didn't do such a good job at that in the Forgotten City

But yeah, what always gets me, speaking of things being taken romantically, is not that the pinkers see things as being romantic, but that they deny the possibility of them being seen any other way.

To be fair I've seen Clotis do this too. I mean I've seen that Tifa is an important woman to Cloud quote come up and it has to be romance. ...

actually that's the only one I can think of.
But yeah like how Tifa Cloud and Sephiroth on the DVD covers or what have you has to prove Clerith. Or Cloud and Aerith walking together in ... Itak... that one game, that has to be romance. And so on...

Then there's the problem that both sides have to throw out every bit of romance from the other side. IE: Tifa living with Cloud isn't romantic. Tifa raising a family with Cloud isn't romantic. Cloud and Tifa belonging together means in the same place, not belonging together romantically. Cloud and Tifa sharing their feelings and deciding to start a new life together AS FRIENDS not lovers.

And on the flip side
Koibito is told from Aerith's point of view so there's no way Cloud ever even THOUGHT about reciprocating those feelings even for a split second.

...

actually again, that's the only one I can think of. Fuck I say let them have that one... I mean as many have pointed out it's in past tense so... we know where his heart is now.

 

[Isabella]

actually again, that's the only one I can think of. Fuck I say let them have that one... I mean as many have pointed out it's in past tense so... we know where his heart is now.

It's very possible to love more than one person. I don't know why they won't let him move on and love Tifa, other than that whole self-insertion business.

 

[Fighter]

LOL. They would settle for nothing less than trying to claim Cloud loved Aerith more that that Tifa is just a second choice.

 

[Vendel]

And on the flip side
Koibito is told from Aerith's point of view so there's no way Cloud ever even THOUGHT about reciprocating those feelings even for a split second.

...

actually again, that's the only one I can think of. Fuck I say let them have that one... I mean as many have pointed out it's in past tense so... we know where his heart is now.

No.

The only person shown to be Aerith's BF is Zack. They had an entire game pointing out that nearly all her actions towards Cloud were directly influenced by Zack.

And seeing as we have from the creators themselves that Cloud was not really aware of the ladies feelings for him (with a picture of the Aerith date btw). And she dies shortly thereafter. When in the hell were these supposed romantic feelings supposed to have been expressed?

The only logical explanation is that even in death she is projecting onto Cloud her feelings for Zack. Although as I pointed out she never even thought about Cloud until she met Sephy. Plus the fact that she is with Zack in Acc. And the last scene of the movie is symbolically putting them together multiple times.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Then there's the problem that both sides have to throw out every bit of romance from the other side. IE: Tifa living with Cloud isn't romantic. Tifa raising a family with Cloud isn't romantic. Cloud and Tifa belonging together means in the same place, not belonging together romantically. Cloud and Tifa sharing their feelings and deciding to start a new life together AS FRIENDS not lovers.

Wait, then what feelings did they share under the Highwind? Feelings of mutual friendship? But they were already friends, how the hell would that be 'different' like Cloud said?

 

[Isabella]

AERITH MUST WIN, DAMN IT. SHE'S THE BEST AT EVERYTHING, NO ONE MOVES ON FROM HER!!

And seeing as we have from the creators themselves that Cloud was not really aware of the ladies feelings for him (with a picture of the Aerith date btw). And she dies shortly thereafter. When in the hell were these supposed romantic feelings supposed to have been expressed?

Agreed. I can see room for mutual romantic attraction. But the word "koibito" implies an actual, serious relationship. These two never even kissed. It's too strong a word for what passed between them. All I can figure is Nojima was aware of the koibito hoopla and decided to have a little fun.

 

[Fighter]

I wonder if CC came first would we have this problem?

 

[Dashell]

And seeing as we have from the creators themselves that Cloud was not really aware of the ladies feelings for him (with a picture of the Aerith date btw). And she dies shortly thereafter. When in the hell were these supposed romantic feelings supposed to have been expressed?

It says he was unaware of their feelings, not "he has no romantic feelings for either of them." and if it did, wouldn't that prove he had no romantic feelings for Tifa as well? I believe both ladies are mentioned.

The only logical explanation is that even in death she is projecting onto Cloud her feelings for Zack. Although as I pointed out she never even thought about Cloud until she met Sephy. Plus the fact that she is with Zack in Acc. And the last scene of the movie is symbolically putting them together multiple times.

I'm not saying she didn't have feelings for Zack or that her feelings for Cloud were not because she saw Zack in him. I'm saying in that time she was alive and knew Cloud, she had romantic feelings for him and I don't think that needs to be disproved. And it was just brought up that it's possible to love two people. .. all though I do agree once she found Zack in the Lifestream, she began a new with him. Dunno what would have happened had she lived though...

Wait, then what feelings did they share under the Highwind? Feelings of mutual friendship? But they were already friends, how the hell would that be 'different' like Cloud said?

It's not

Agreed. I can see room for mutual romantic attraction. But the word "koibito" implies an actual, serious relationship. These two never even kissed. It's too strong a word for what passed between them. All I can figure is Nojima was aware of the koibito hoopla and decided to have a little fun.

HAHAHA you know I often thought that myself

 

[Isabella]

I wonder if CC came first would we have this problem?

Doubtful. But CC isn't canon, so ...

It says he was unaware of their feelings, not "he has no romantic feelings for either of them." and if it did, wouldn't that prove he had no romantic feelings for Tifa as well? I believe both ladies are mentioned.

The point is that koibito means relationship, and they never had time for a relationship before she died.

 

[Dashell]

The point is that koibito means relationship, and they never had time for a relationship before she died.

I guess then why would Nojima say that?... See I don't think we should question canon, at all. It's one thing that bugs me about Cleriths is that they constantly question canon... CONSTANTLY!... it's annoying. Let's not go there, please?

But hey, you know they say we get thrown "bones", maybe that was Nojima throwing Cleriths a bone

 

[Isabella]

Nojima didn't state it though. The narrator did.

 

[Dashell]

Well clearly the narrator is just a rabid Clerith then

 

[Vendel]

Say it with me Q

Z A C K.

 

[Dashell]

haha dude, again, I'm not denying her feelings for Zack. I never did. I get it, she's with Zack, she was with Zack in CC, they were "koibitos"... and she's... with... Zack... now that they're dead.

But how does this disprove she ever loved Cloud? She's only allowed to love one person in her life? Yeah the feelings were probably cause she saw Zack in him, but there were feelings there.

EDIT
Great you guys, now you got Ryu viewing the thread, he's going to throw big words and me and confuse me

 

[Isabella]

The planet was to be his to rule, and to become a part of that system would be nothing short of defeat.

Let me ask you something, Quex. The above quote from COL-B is written in third person. Do you take what it's saying as undisputed fact? Or do you take it as telling us what Sephiroth's perspective is?

 

[Vendel]

But how does this disprove she ever loved Cloud? She's only allowed to love one person in her life? Yeah the feelings were probably cause she saw Zack in him, but there were feelings there.

She was projecting onto Cloud. Simple as that.

In ACC when she has Zack by her side again she doesn't do any of that. She cares for Cloud deeply. But not romantically.

 

[Dashell]

So what you're saying is, Aerith viewed Cloud as her koibito but he didn't view her as such, right?

She was projecting onto Cloud. Simple as that.

Okay don't get mad but I don't understand what you mean. What do you mean she projected onto him?

 

[Vendel]

So what you're saying is, Aerith viewed Cloud as her koibito but he didn't view her as such, right?

How the fuck can Cloud view her as a koibito? They were never in a relationship.

*calms down*

Ahem.. I mean yes that is my position.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Well clearly the narrator is just a rabid Clerith then

Aerith is a rabid Clerith? Wot.

 

[Isabella]

So what you're saying is, Aerith viewed Cloud as her koibito but he didn't view her as such, right?

I don't know about Vendel, but what I'm saying is the CoL quote only shows Aerith's perspective. It neither confirms nor denies that Cloud felt the same way.

 

[muchmoxie]

If Cloud is allowed to move on from Aerith, why can't Aerith move on from Zack? Especially in the span of, I don't know... six years?

 

[Dashell]

I don't know about Vendel, but what I'm saying is the CoL quote only shows Aerith's perspective. It neither confirms nor denies that Cloud felt the same way.

So... basically she had romantic feelings for him then right?... YES probably from seeing Zack in him, but the feelings were there right?

How the fuck can Cloud view her as a koibito? They were never in a relationship.

*calms down*

I asked so that I could say the above.