So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[AssistantSensei]

Well, that. There are some people who can't be convinced even when the proof is right in front of them.

To be honest, I don't think it'd be enough to make it 'canon' to certain others even if Cloud and Tifa kissed. There are some who'll just try twisting the facts as much as possible to satisfy the fantasy fangirl inside of them.

I totally agree. I always thought that if SE shows Cloud and Tifa making out, getting it on, saying "I love you", getting married, having kids of their own, growing old together, showing that they're still in love with each other, even though they're in the lifestream, etc, etc. Many of the rapid Cleriths will probably will try to claim that Clerith is still canon and that Cloud always and only loved Aerith, that she will be the only one for him, and that Tifa was just a "companion" for the time being.

 

[paoo]

Well, Cloti still have the proofs.
But if SE decided to make a kiss scene between Cloud and Tifa, I think it would set their relationship even more straight. And sure, the Cleriths would try and twist it around, but inside they know what's right. But after all that have been said, made, and such, they can't admit they are wrong. They will just keep explaining it in their way. It's impossible to stop.

And to those who say: "This is stupid, it's just a game blah!!123"

Please.... GTFO. This thread is about the LTD, no need to even click on it if you're not interested? And this forum/site is dedicated to a game, so what are you doing here?

To be honest, I find the LTD very interesting. And no, I don't have a life.. yet. I can be silly and talk about this if I want.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Oh, sorry, Mako. My real "issue" (more a musing, since I find this whole thing funny) is that it would be so much easier for them to just say "lol, wut, Tifa and Cloud are together, end of story" than to go with all this other bullshit. I'm sure plenty of people have asked them. But to me, it seems they're smart enough to realize that there's a good deal of interest in this little "triangle" or whatever it is, which inspires sales, which to them, is what they're going for.

And why the hell mess with that when you're a big corporate machine driven by cash?

Here's the thing. They HAVE stated "Tifa and Cloud are together. End of story."

Paraphrasing quotes here: "They come to realize their mutual feelings for one another and live together at the end of AC/C and DoC." It doesn't get any more black and white, laid out, officially stated, etc., etc., than that. The ONLY argument that "shippers" have is the non-specification of mutual feelings, but I'm sure Nojima, Nomura and Co. have better things to do than "hand walk" rabids through compilation and point out where those "feelings" are defined, described and made crystal clear.

Side topic:

If VII is ever remade I'd be willing to wager that Zack will be a more prominent reference and Tifa and Cloud will get a lot of "longing looks" and "stares" between one another.

"..." in 1997 wasn't dismissive silence, it was "Okay, I'm not speaking here, but I AM reacting, you just can't see it on my large pixel formed face."

The LT was resolved before it started, IMO. Cloud has only ever loved one woman, and has loved her since before his balls dropped, so I'd say there was no "Love triangle" at all. Simply a fucked up, confused, man searching for himself and finding who he really is through his connection with the person he loves most. (Lifestream scene, anyone?)

 

[paoo]

The LT was resolved before it started, IMO. Cloud has only ever loved one woman, and has loved her since before his balls dropped, so I'd say there was no "Love triangle" at all. Simply a fucked up, confused, man searching for himself and finding who he really is through his connection with the person he loves most. (Lifestream scene, anyone?)

Yeah, but probably some people falled in love with Cloud and Aerith's fake, plot-twisting relationship. And when they later saw the Cloud and Tifa 'hints' (and some were pretty obvious), they got mad, started to deny the facts, and it all begun.

 

[A]

Sephiroth: Because the light of the present is too much!

Thanks Sephiroth, that makes sense.

And then we see a scene where Cloud glows with light. Sephiroth has always been underestimating Cloud.

Kairi is a being of light and she's the only one for Sora. That's just a really bad Clerith point to be honest.

Of course it is, but apparently she's the better match for him because Tifa's just too much for Cloud, while Aerith knows the balance.

I totally agree. I always thought that if SE shows Cloud and Tifa making out, getting it on, saying "I love you", getting married, having kids of their own, growing old together, showing that they're still in love with each other, even though they're in the lifestream, etc, etc. Many of the rapid Cleriths will probably will try to claim that Clerith is still canon and that Cloud always and only loved Aerith, that she will be the only one for him, and that Tifa was just a "companion" for the time being.

We've seen Cloud and Tifa being announced as canon at least three times already - and yet there still are people who consider Cloud and Aerith to be canon. Even if it went as far as Cloud and Tifa doing something extreme, it's being stubborn that keeps them from accepting the truth.

 

[Raquelborn]

Yeah, but probably some people falled in love with Cloud and Aerith's fake, plot-twisting relationship. And when they later saw the Cloud and Tifa 'hints' (and some were pretty obvious), they got mad, started to deny the facts, and it all begun.

To be fair, there are many non-caring (mainly male) gamers who just remember Cloud falling for Aerith because they weren't aware of the dating mechanics and so did not see the later 'Cloti' scenes as romantic because a Cloud and Tifa romance wouldn't have made sense to them.

But then again, these gamers tend to be the same people who think that Cloud was a SOLDIER 1st class and don't really understand what part Zack had to play in anything.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Yeah, but probably some people falled in love with Cloud and Aerith's fake, plot-twisting relationship. And when they later saw the Cloud and Tifa 'hints' (and some were pretty obvious), they got mad, started to deny the facts, and it all begun.

This is exactly what's happened. The issue is, coming from someone who's been on that other side of fandoms before, no one would care if they preferred CxA. Just don't go on about it being canon.

To be fair, there are many non-caring (mainly male) gamers who just remember Cloud falling for Aerith because they weren't aware of the dating mechanics and so did not see the later 'Cloti' scenes as romantic because a Cloud and Tifa romance wouldn't have made sense to them.

But then again, these gamers tend to be the same people who think that Cloud was a SOLDIER 1st class and don't really understand what part Zack had to play in anything.

I'll be honest and say I have yet to meet someone IRL who played FFVII casually and saw anything between CxA/didn't see Cloud ending up with Tifa at the end, but that's just my experience.

Also, you are referring to gamers who didn't pay attention to the story, I don't see them as being good examples. You can be a casual gamer who isn't obsessed with FFVII and see that Cloud ends up with Tifa. I know for a fact that's how most of us started out.

 

[Raquelborn]

I'll be honest and say I have yet to meet someone IRL who played FFVII casually and saw anything between CxA/didn't see Cloud ending up with Tifa at the end, but that's just my experience.

I'm saying this from my own experience of browsing other forums and non-LTD related youtube videos.

Also, you are referring to gamers who didn't pay attention to the story, I don't see them as being good examples.

Which is pricisely why I mentioned their ignorance/confusion in regards to other aspects of the story.

You can be a casual gamer who isn't obsessed with FFVII and see that Cloud ends up with Tifa. I know for a fact that's how most of us started out.

I never indicated otherwise. I was pointing out that there are also many casual gamers who think he loved Aerith and this was without being huge Aerith fans or shippers and twisting the facts, it was just how they (possibly mis)interpreted the story.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Again though, I don't see them as being good examples of people to bring up. If they didn't pay attention to the story, not just in the relationship aspect, how is their opinion on anything really important/valid when discussing the story? Misconceptions based on ignorance doesn't mean the story tellers did anything wrong. I'm sure we could come up with a ton of different examples from other FF games showing what people think who didn't pay attention/haven't played the game vs. people who played it casually and can follow a simple plot.

I'm saying this from my own experience of browsing other forums and non-LTD related youtube videos.

People who are talking about the story of a video game on the internet are already in a different category than "casual gamer". My example of my own personal experience is with people who did pay attention to the story, but aren't huge FFVII fans, they still see it the way it was intended. When you step outside of the internet the population who got confused by the CxA plot twist/people who didn't pay attention to the game beyond that, is very very small.

The problem is if you come on the internet to discuss FFVII, the LTD gets thrown in your face. It's unavoidable. When you put casual gamers into that scenario, people who aren't reading all these extra quotes and explainations, they suddenly see it as up for debate and something unsolved because, "how could all these people be so wrong?". They then pick sides based on their own feelings. Some liked Aerith and want her to be with Cloud, so they start to believe it might actually be true. Others, the majority, keep their Cloud is in love with Tifa stance. Some might try not to offend anyone by saying he loves both.

It's the reason why most of us still debate. It's not to change the minds of the pinkers, but to show the on-lookers who don't know any better what the truth is.

 

[Raquelborn]

Again though, I don't see them as being good examples of people to bring up. If they didn't pay attention to the story, not just in the relationship aspect, how is their opinion on anything really important/valid when discussing the story? Misconceptions based on ignorance doesn't mean the story tellers did anything wrong. I'm sure we could come up with a ton of different examples from other FF games showing what people think who didn't pay attention/haven't played the game vs. people who played it casually and can follow a simple plot.

My point was that not everyone who believes and says Clerith is canon are doing so because they've twisted the facts and ignored Cloti. Some people just think Cloud loves Aerith because of how they played the game and they shouldn't be lumped together with the die-hard Cleriths we sometimes see.

Not all of them are completely ignorant of the details of the story either I may add but from what I've seen, quite a few of them are.

People who are talking about the story of a video game on the internet are already in a different category than "casual gamer".

I mean people who don't look at the story of FFVII in detail (read ultimanias and such) and have just taken the story to be as they have played and interpreted it. They don't care much about the LTD in other words.

My example of my own personal experience is with people who did pay attention to the story, but aren't huge FFVII fans, they still see it the way it was intended. When you step outside of the internet the population who got confused by the CxA plot twist/people who didn't pay attention to the game beyond that, is very very small.

Well that's your own personal experience and I wanted to present mine.

In summary: Some gamers think Cloud loves Aerith and it's nothing to do with who they actually prefer. I'm not saying this proves anything but it's worth keeping in mind when generalising people who think Clerith is canon.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Well that's your own personal experience and I wanted to present mine.

I'm not saying my experiences are more "right" than yours, just that I rationalize why we see these numbers.

I mean people who don't look at the story of FFVII in detail (read ultimanias and such) and have just taken the story to be as they have played and interpreted it. They don't care much about the LTD in other words.

Looking at the details of the story doesn't require the ultimanias. Most of what's said in the extra books is clarification or information that wasn't necessarily needed in the original work. If they don't care about who loves who then why would which couple is canon even cross their radar?

In summary: Some gamers think Cloud loves Aerith and it's nothing to do with who they actually prefer. I'm not saying this proves anything but it's worth keeping in mind when generalising people who think Clerith is canon.

If you think he's in love with Aerith though you are already putting a preference on it because there isn't anything in the original game to suggest it. You can make Cloud be nice to her, she dies, and then Cloud turns out to be completely messed up. It's ignoring what's being put in front of you. No, these people might not be shippers, and they might not be ignoring the facts of the game on purpose, but they aren't paying attention to the game either.

If there was something in the game to actually point at a relationship between the two, Clerii wouldn't have such a hard time giving that beginning point to us in debates. It always goes back to, "where is Cloud shown to be in love with Aerith?" Wouldn't you think the really huge fans who have read the extra books and whatnot would have an answer?

I'll point out again though that on the internet the LTD is a huge FFVII topic, and the fact that it even exists confuses a lot of casual gamers. I know it confused me when I first started talking on the internet about FFVII.

 

[Vendel]

I'll point out again though that on the internet the LTD is a huge FFVII topic, and the fact that it even exists confuses a lot of casual gamers. I know it confused me when I first started talking on the internet about FFVII.

As a casual gamer who could have given two shits about the LTD a few months ago. I'll say it took me about an hour of searching around to come to the conclusion that the CiC people were nuts.

 

[Celes Chere]

It always goes back to, "where is Cloud shown to be in love with Aerith?" Wouldn't you think the really huge fans who have read the extra books and whatnot would have an answer?

This x a million. It seems kind of strange that when in debates you ask that question, the question gets avoided, or the debater suddenly has 'no time' to post on silly debate Forums anymore. Either that or, the question is answered with something such as:
"The way I see it"
"My interpretation"
"In my opinion"
"[Insert random line that isn't a quote, or a proven fact]"

Which are all very far from facts. People should realize that no-one is damning them for their interpretations... rather trying to show them that they cannot be used as evidence in debates. Opinions mean nothing when it's versus the facts.

 

[Raquelborn]

I'm not saying my experiences are more "right" than yours, just that I rationalize why we see these numbers.

I never said you did. I'm just saying what I've seen and you've said what you've seen. Let's leave it at that.

Looking at the details of the story doesn't require the ultimanias. Most of what's said in the extra books is clarification or information that wasn't necessarily needed in the original work. If they don't care about who loves who then why would which couple is canon even cross their radar?

What I meant was people who've understood Cloud's past and the involvement of Zack and Jenova cells. That doesn't require an ultimania, it only requires you to pay a lot of attention to the game (I personally was very confused when I first played for instance).

If you think he's in love with Aerith though you are already putting a preference on it because there isn't anything in the original game to suggest it.

No, it's just what they think from their experience of the game.

If you go on a date with Aerith and get nice reactions from Aerith and so forth and you are not aware that it's due to dating mechanics you are likely to assume that Aerith is who Cloud loves.

Of course, we all know better but not every fan or player does.

You can make Cloud be nice to her, she dies, and then Cloud turns out to be completely messed up. It's ignoring what's being put in front of you. No, these people might not be shippers, and they might not be ignoring the facts of the game on purpose, but they aren't paying attention to the game either.

Which is precisely my point. You can't pigeonhole people who say Cloud loves Aerith as all the same. Some are twisting facts and ignoring what they don't want to see but others simply haven't grasped the storyline properly or fully understand it. Therefore no one should generalise that people who say "Aerith" are all the former.

 

[Makoeyes987]

What I love is how Clerith's over at the pink place see Nojima's quote on Cloud/Tifa in "Case of Tifa" as Clerith when it literally is saying that they are in a relationship as clear as day.

[quote="Random" Clerith]This one absolutely screams Clerith to me! pro.gif It says that *trouble* exists between Cloud and Tifa. I like the way that they say this would be true, even if Cloud wasn't coping with Geostigma or Sephiroth.

Then it says that *after* ACC, Marlene and Denzel will have to help Cloud and Tifa *work it out*. Doesn't that mean that Cloud and Tifa's problems will *continue* after ACC? lmao.gif

The bit about things would've gone better if Aerith were around - to me, that means there would have been less tension between Cloud and Tifa if Aerith were around. It also says the *burden* on Cloud is because he lost Aerith. If anything, that just reinforces our idea that he went to Aerith's Church because he misses Aerith.

Again, to me that reinforces Clerith, not Cloti. [/quote]

I'm sorry, but the flagrant...ignoring of the message while quoting the actual text strikes me as schizophrenic. It's reminds me of something out of 1984 called doublethink, where you hold two completely contrary ideas and believe them as true. Like beliving 2+2=5 because the Party says so, even though you see for yourself 2+2 is 4.

It's fucking amazing. The Nojima quote screams Clerith...while confirming Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship.

Wow. It's not like they're even trying to spin it anymore. They're just holding two completely contrary ideas at the same damn time.

 

[Vendel]

It's fucking amazing. The Nojima quote screams Clerith...while confirming Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship.

Wow. It's not like they're even trying to spin it anymore. They're just holding two completely contrary ideas at the same damn time.

Clerith is a hell of a drug.

EDIT: And did we call "The church is his Promised land" or what? Of course some take it a step further.

Also the AC playback doesn't tell them anything they didn't already know. Despite directly disproving the Aerith lives on inside Cloud/Spirit sex theory they have. And if they want to deny it I have proof.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I just can't believe they aren't even trying to spin anymore. They were better than this.

This is what its going to be like in a few years.

Cloud and Tifa love each other and now they're married. I'd say they have a healthy love life now and are together.

Clerith: I don't see anything Cloti in that statement. If anything, that screams Clerith to me!

....

It's like...what are you reading? What the hell is that?

 

[Dawnbreaker]

Do they actually say the line "Cloud and Tifa learn their mutual feelings for each other and live together after ACC"? If so that would be pretty definite and pretty telling and also kill any further use of the FF7 triangle. That to me, it's as definite as you're gonna get though I still roffle heartily that it's been so argued by so many for so long. It's actually always been obvious to me that Cloud and Tifa were the quinessential couple, but I also thought SE brilliant for remaining engimatic about it to drive the FF7 universe even further, milk it even more.

Though I still wonder why we haven't seen them kiss (unless I missed it or it's in one of the thousand FF7 spinoffs I cba to buy) or do anything of a more definitely romantic nature. However, if they're living together at NOW (as AC made it obvious to me that for a period of time they weren't at least) then such a thing really isn't needed. I just happen to think it stupid that they couldn't have just had Tifa and Cloud kiss or do something romantic at the end of AC, but then again, maybe they didn't want to take away from the rest of the story, I dunno. In the end, as annoying as I find writers having to explain things after, I definitely agree that their word is law.

Btw, I'm no Clerith, and I don't even like Cloud much, for that matter. I happen to think Zerith is a much cuter couple, but I also still think that Cloti is a pretty decent couple, even if I want to smack Cloud upside the head sometimes.

 

[Raquelborn]

Do they actually say the line "Cloud and Tifa learn their mutual feelings for each other and live together after ACC"? If so that would be pretty definite and pretty telling and also kill any further use of the FF7 triangle. That to me, it's as definite as you're gonna get.

Crisis Core Ultimania, under "Link to the FFVII series".

http://thelifestream.net/final-fant...acter-profile-from-the-crisis-core-ultimania/

She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC.

Though I still wonder why we haven't seen them kiss (unless I missed it or it's in one of the thousand FF7 spinoffs I cba to buy) or do anything of a more definitely romantic nature. However, if they're living together at NOW (as AC made it obvious to me that for a period of time they weren't at least) then such a thing really isn't needed. I just happen to think it stupid that they couldn't have just had Tifa and Cloud kiss or do something romantic at the end of AC, but then again, maybe they didn't want to take away from the rest of the story, I dunno. In the end, as annoying as I find writers having to explain things after, I definitely agree that their word is law.

Well there's Cloud caressing her face in both Last Order and Crisis Core.

I also saw the church scene in AC/C as a little romantic partly because it felt like it was echoing the scene above but that's just my opinion.

 

[Isabella]

Do they actually say the line "Cloud and Tifa learn their mutual feelings for each other and live together after ACC"? If so that would be pretty definite and pretty telling and also kill any further use of the FF7 triangle.

You get crazy Cleriths arguing that "they never say WHAT KIND of feelings!" That's how desperate and sad they've become.

Also, er, wow that place is pink. >.> I feel a little dirty now.

Okay, the place Cloud awakens is actually *the water pool in Aerith's Church* - to me, the water pool in the Church is the same as the water that fell during the Great Gospel rain scene, the scene where Cloud looks enraptured by every touch of rain as though it's the caress of Aerith.

Isn't that pool of water infused with pure Lifestream? As I understand it, the water heals Geostigma because it's infused with pure Lifestream that "fights off" the negative Lifestream introduced by Sephiroth. Therefore, where Cloud awakens is pure Lifestream - which is where Aerith is.

I agree with FFG - it isn't talking about the *people* who are there as Cloud's "Promised Land". It's the pool of water and/or Aerith's Church where he awakens - so that is his "Promised Land". If you interpret it that way, it makes sense for the movie to end with a picture of Aerith's Church. After all, that's his "Promised Land". As FFG said, that's also why he goes there so often.

As for Aerith and Zack leaving to go back to the Lifestream, that's nothing new. We already knew that. CoL-White makes it clear that there's nothing Zerith about them leaving together. As for Cloud being able to forgive himself, we already knew that, too. He's able to forgive himself because Aerith let him know that she never blamed him

Do these people really believe what they write? It's like Mako said, they cling to things though the logical part of their brains must be telling them it can't be true. I just don't understand ...

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

What is this about the Promised Land now? Why is it being brought up?

 

[Isabella]

Hito posted that translation back in the old thread before it was brutally murdered.

It's from the 10th anniversary Ultimania, I believe. Might as well bring it over.

The place where he awakens---
That is Cloud's Promised Land

As he sleeps, Cloud hears two voices. The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesn't belong here yet.

When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma-- his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realises where he is meant to live. He realises that he was able to forgive himself.

And when he turns around--- "she" is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness... And so they too go back to where they belong.

Back to the current of life flowing around the planet---.

So now the Promised Land is the water and/or the church? So why when he awakens is it talking about his friends and family, and that he's meant to be with them? They're irrelevant, if the location is what the passage is about.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

WAIT SO THE LITTLE KIDS ARE HIS PROMISED LAND?! DAMMIT CLOUD I KNEW YOU WERE A PEDO!

 

[paoo]

WAIT SO THE LITTLE KIDS ARE HIS PROMISED LAND?! DAMMIT CLOUD I KNEW YOU WERE A PEDO!

Don't say that...

DAMMIT CLOUD I THOUGHT I KNEW U WERE A CLACKER!

Edit: I read Case of Yuffie today, and it seems like Cloud and Tifa always success be mentioned as 'a pair' in those novellas.

 

[Makoeyes987]

See what we're talking about, Dawn?

Do these people really believe what they write? It's like Mako said, they cling to things though the logical part of their brains must be telling them it can't be true. I just don't understand ...

It's double think. Two plus Two equals Five, sometimes. If the Party says so