So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Isabella]

Let's turn their word games against them. So they're fond of saying Cloud's name isn't in the "koibito" passage? Well I don't see "church" or "water" in the above passage, either. I only see mention of Cloud's family and friends.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I knew there was a reason you had a Malificent avatar.

 

[Isabella]

I knew there was a reason you had a Malificent avatar.

Playing aside though, there's no way the Promised Land in this case is the water. It's obvious to anyone reading that passage, if they approach it objectively. I don't mind people liking CxA; it's the twisting of statements that gets me. Stop dumbing yourselves down, people!

 

[Vendel]

Hito posted that translation back in the old thread before it was brutally murdered.

MAKOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

So now the Promised Land is the water and/or the church? So why when he awakens is it talking about his friends and family, and that he's meant to be with them? They're irrelevant, if the location is what the passage is about.

When he awakes, there was his friends Aerith. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness Aerith. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma-- his family Aerith were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realises where he is meant to live. The pool of water in the Church. He realises that he was able to forgive himself.


Fixed that for you.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

No, actually, Mako, I don't. All I got linked to was some fantransalation, which to me, is useless, as I'd rather have it form the source themselves. Fantranslations are great for discussion, but I was more interested in an official comment by someone from SE confirming that indeed Tifa and Cloud discover their mutual feelings/live together after AC/etc. Something, anything to be more obvious about it, to confirm to me that SE are no longer juicing the triangle.

And in that article that was quoted, it seemed that SE wasn't committed to declaring either Aerith or Tifa as in neither case are they refered to as his lover, his one true love, his beloved, blah blah blah. I think SE is still milking this for all it's worth, and until I get some official word on it, I'll assume that's the game their playing. In the end, one can deduce that they do want Tifa and Cloud together from the sheer fact that Aerith is dead and Tifa is not (plus some other things), but SE is clearly aware that the debate and discussion is alive and kicking and what better way to juice out more cash from us FFanatics?

That said, I'm not so arrogant as to assume it hasn't been made more definitive somewhere and I've just never encountered it or been presented with it so my opinion on this isn't most definitely not...definite. ;P

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

No, actually, Mako, I don't. All I got linked to was some fantransalation, which to me, is useless, as I'd rather have it form the source themselves. Fantranslations are great for discussion, but I was more interested in an official comment by someone from SE confirming that indeed Tifa and Cloud discover their mutual feelings/live together after AC/etc. Something, anything to be more obvious about it, to confirm to me that SE are no longer juicing the triangle.

So, like, you want the actual lines in Japanese? Cause the Ultimanias have never been released in English...

 

[Tennyo]

I'm wondering how this quote about Cloud's "Promised Land" and waking up in the church actually infers that the church is his "Promised Land." It sounds like the quote is saying that it's the white space that is his "Promised Land" to me, and not the church at all. He was in his "Promised Land," and then we woke up in the church with his family and friends and all the other peeps nearby.

Quote =/= Church is the Promised Land

 

[Dawnbreaker]

It's never been officially translated? That I did not know.

Anything else officially translated that confirms that SE is no longer juicing this angle?

That said, I can always look about for several translations of the same text and compare, but I must admit to be being too lazy to do that and therefore must concede the point unless anyone wants to do that for me.

While I'm at it, can someone explain how Cloud got from the top of a building to the church? That was never fully explained. I had assumed his friends took him there to heal in the waters, but AC was frustratingly cryptic and I never knew for sure.

 

[Tennyo]

I like to think that Aerith and Zack were the ones to bring him there. The idea that the rest of Avalanche found his chard remains atop the building and dragged them to the church seems awkward to me.

I mean if anything the phone call scene at the end of ACC seems to point at it being Aerith and Zack who did it, since weren't they the ones (or maybe just Aerith?) who did all the calling.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

How'd they manage that being dead and all?

That said I've heard weirder things from FF7, so that's a possiblity.

 

[Isabella]

He doesn't awaken in the white space though, Tennyo. It describes him as sleeping during that time. This is what it says about him awakening:

When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma-- his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realises where he is meant to live.

 

[Tennyo]

Uuuuuuhhhhhhmmmmmmm... I don't know. I mean, that seems to be where the narative points, and one could maybe argue that they rebuilt him or something? Or not really... I don't know. >_<

@ Bella: Oh I get it now. I had to read it a couple times. Still it doesn't mean the church. It's with his friends and family. That's his promised land. Had they been in the middle of an open field or in a bar or on the new airship as long as they were there that's still his promised land. It's his family wherever they are. Sound right? lol

A little overly squishy. It makes me think of a scene I remember watching in an episode of Little House on the Prairie.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

I got the impression that Aerith shielded him with her power from the blast and Tifa and the gang found him injuired and brought him back to the church to be healed, since the lifestream/waters proved to have healing properties. I can imagine Aerith having the power to extend some sort of magical protection, but less belief about her physically moving him.

Besides, how would Tifa and Co. known where he was if not for bringing him there himself?

I don't suppose this was ever officially explained hmm?

 

[Tennyo]

Never officially explained. I didn't get any impression of her shielding him either, only of her and Zack doing so funky stuff after the fact and then boom he wakes up.

OMG it's supposed to be OMINOUS! Just the way Nomura likes it.

I can see it now...

Nojima: *writes explanation for how Cloud got to the church in the script*
Nomura: No too direct *deletes*

 

[Dawnbreaker]

If no one shielded him how did Cloud survive the blast? ...I suppose he could have done so himself, but after a life and death fight with Sephiroth at the end, it doesn't seem he'd have a lot of strength left.

Sometimes I really hate these writers...

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I got the impression that Aerith shielded him with her power from the blast and Tifa and the gang found him injuired and brought him back to the church to be healed, since the lifestream/waters proved to have healing properties. I can imagine Aerith having the power to extend some sort of magical protection, but less belief about her physically moving him.

That's a pretty lofty impression considering we've not seen any evidence that Aerith's powers can manifest that way.

Why the hell would Tifa and Co. bring him to the church to be healed? Up until Kadaj blew a hole in the ground they were unaware there was a lake beneath the thing, and even then, no one knew it was HEALING water until much later....while the group was on the Sierra. With no way of knowing what happened in the church. Just spelling that out.

Besides, how would Tifa and Co. known where he was if not for bringing him there himself?

I don't suppose this was ever officially explained hmm?

"It's like she said. Wait here and Cloud will come back."

Aerith sent a spirit messages through. They knew to be at the church because they were TOLD to be at the church.

I always assumed Cloud died--in a sense. The white space was limbo. Kind of like where he fought Sephiroth at the end of VII--within the lifestream. Almost like an alternate plane.

He's "awakening" could very literally be him becoming corporeal again. That's my take. I could be wrong. It's rare, but it happens.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

My assumption that Aerith might have some sort of astral powers is "lofty"? Says the girl who said that Aerith was one of, if not the, most powerful entitiy in the FF7 universe? It's "lofty" dispute the fact that Tifa herself thanked Aerith for sending down the healing rain that cured a lot of the Geostigma? Despite the fact that Aerith summoned Holy?

DOES NOT COMPUTE

Granted Aerith gets herself skewered on Sephiroth's blade, but that's because I always assumed she was a frail creature in regards to her physical form (supported several times in the game) but had a wealth of power in her that's magical (also supported in the game).

 

[Fairheartstrife]

My assumption that Aerith might have some sort of astral powers is "lofty"? Says the girl who said that Aerith was one of, if not the, most powerful entitiy in the FF7 universe? It's "lofty" dispute the fact that Tifa herself thanked Aerith for sending down the healing rain that cured a lot of the Geostigma? Despite the fact that Aerith summoned Holy?

DOES NOT COMPUTE

Granted Aerith gets herself skewered on Sephiroth's blade, but that's because I always assumed she was a frail creature in regards to her physical form (supported several times in the game) but had a wealth of power in her that's magical (also supported in the game).

Show me any scene where Aerith casts a barrier like the type needed to protect Cloud from a massive Materia blast. Any. I made no assertion that it's beyond the realm of her powers in THEORY, but in evidence, yes, it's a lofty assumption. Aerith's powers are healing and are shown throughout compilation to be focused on healing. Had we seen a shimmer, or heard her voice or seen something indicating her presence as a means of protection, then sure, I'd buy it. But we don't, so again, based on what we KNOW and what would be consistent with ACC, then no, it wasn't Aerith "protecting" Cloud.

And nowhere did I dispute Tifa thanking Aerith or make mention of her summoning Holy...where the hell did you pull that out of?
And how does that pertain to my disputing a "barrier" spell?

 

[Dawnbreaker]

I'm only suggesting it as a possbility. I think I made it very very clear that I had guessed it to be so, and asked for an actual explaination because it was never clear. As Aerith's powers were never fully explained or explored, I don't think a protective spell (particularly for someone known for defense) is completely "lofty". As she'd shown so many other powers that are so much greater than a simple shielding spell (which certain materia itself could do) I think it's a possiblity worth considering.

Since there's never anything ever shown definitely your guess is as good as mine, which means it's just that...a guess.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think Cloud was just teleported there, to be honest.

 

[Max Payne]

I'm only suggesting it as a possbility. I think I made it very very clear that I had guessed it to be so, and asked for an actual explaination because it was never clear. As Aerith's powers were never fully explained or explored, I don't think a protective spell (particularly for someone known for defense) is completely "lofty". As she'd shown so many other powers that are so much greater than a simple shielding spell (which certain materia itself could do) I think it's a possiblity worth considering.

Since there's never anything ever shown definitely your guess is as good as mine, which means it's just that...a guess.

And what other magic powers does she have that are so awesome?

 

[Dawnbreaker]

-Summoning Holy
-Controlling the lifestream (I think, wtf is that rain?)
-Not diffusing into the lifestream

I'm sure there's more, but I think that's sufficient to prove my point. I never said that anything was defnite but it seems to be supported by the above.

...Cloud was teleporated there? By whom?

 

[Shadowfox]

Do these people really believe what they write? It's like Mako said, they cling to things though the logical part of their brains must be telling them it can't be true. I just don't understand ...

You know, there was a study done in 2006 on political partisans and how their brains work in order to let them come away seeing the conclusions they want: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-01/euhs-esl012406.php

It doesn't really tell us anything earth shaking; after all, we've already known that partisans argue from an emotional standpoint rather than a logical one.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I always figured he was healed by the magicz rain. I MEAN HEY, IF PEOPLE LIKE WOLVERINE CAN GET HEALED BY KILLING BLOWS, WHO'S TO SAY GREAT GOSPEL DIDN'T MAKE CLOUD INVINCIBLE OR SOME SHIT.

 

[Max Payne]

-Summoning Holy
-Controlling the lifestream (I think, wtf is that rain?)
-Not diffusing into the lifestream

I'm sure there's more, but I think that's sufficient to prove my point. I never said that anything was defnite but it seems to be supported by the above.

...Cloud was teleporated there? By whom?

Summoning Holy wasn't some grandiose power. All she did was pray.

The rest came after she died.