[Spoilers] Material Ultimania Plus discussion

[KindOfBlue]

I just wanna know how a river of memories(the Lifestream) can control the flow of time itself. How are memories able to affect an aspect of reality itself(an aspect that goes far beyond the planet)?

I guess it’s like “if a tree falls in a forest and there’s nobody there to hear it, does it make a sound?” like some kind of spiritual concept that the memories of those who lived through time are the evidence that time has passed or something, I dunno…this stuff’s way beyond my tiny brain lol

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I honestly don't know any more, but my understanding from the OG was that the Lifestream is anything but a "river of memories". Individuality and individual memories dissolve into the Lifestream, which is more of a 'life force', the flow of spirit energy. The spirit energy that once animated a man returns to the planet and is sent forth again to animate a tree, or a fly, or a behemoth.... Bugenhagen explained it all really clearly, but then again, maybe he was wrong.

Admittedly I don't understanding how Materia works, being both crystallised Lifestream and also containing memories. Oh yes and also being an expression of the will of the Planet.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The Lifestream is literally made out of memories. That is what "mako" is. Memories that are so concentrated it's a physical substance. Honestly, it's more or less what Kingdom Hearts is in... the game series of the same name.

We've known this since the OG at Temple of the Ancients when Sephiroth says the Memories of the Cetra are in the Lifestream. And that he's absorbed them by absorbing the Lifestream into himself. Materia being memories and how it works was revealed in the Kalm Flashback by Sephiroth as well. People are accessing the memories of the Cetra that is in the matera and the nature of the memories determines what type and effects the materia has.

Remake then took those concepts and added the twist that the Lifestream exists across all of time in the same "state". So once someone dies and their memories join the Lifestream, then... their memories have always been in the Lifestream that exists across all of time. So since Aerith *did* die in the future... her memories are now in the Lifestream... across all of time to boot. And she's also a Cetra, so she lasts longer than most people do.

Relevant OG Scripts

Tseng
One with the Planet?

Sephiroth
You stupid fools. You have never even thought about it.
All the spirit energy of this Planet. All its wisdom... knowledge...
I will meld with it all. I will become one with it... it will become one with me.

Cloud
He shouldn't be able to find the Promised Land.

Sephiroth
...Ah, but I have.
I'm far superior to the Ancients.
I became a traveler of the Lifestream and gained the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients.
I also gained the knowledge and wisdom of those after the extinction of the Ancients.
And soon, I will create the future.

Sephiroth
Materia. When you condense Mako energy, materia is produced.
It's very rare to be able to see materia in its natural state.

Cloud
By the way... Why is it that when you use materia you can also use magic too?

Sephiroth
You were in SOLDIER and didn't even know that?
...the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients is held in the materia.
Anyone with this knowledge can freely use the powers of the Land and the Planet. That knowledge interacts between ourselves and the planet calling up magic...... or so they say.

 

[OWA-2]

The Lifestream is literally made out of memories. That is what "mako" is. Memories that are so concentrated it's a physical substance. Honestly, it's more or less what Kingdom Hearts is in... the game series of the same name.

We've known this since the OG at Temple of the Ancients when Sephiroth says the Memories of the Cetra are in the Lifestream. And that he's absorbed them by absorbing the Lifestream into himself. Materia being memories and how it works was revealed in the Kalm Flashback by Sephiroth as well. People are accessing the memories of the Cetra that is in the matera and the nature of the memories determines what type and effects the materia has.

Remake then took those concepts and added the twist that the Lifestream exists across all of time in the same "state". So once someone dies and their memories join the Lifestream, then... their memories have always been in the Lifestream that exists across all of time. So since Aerith *did* die in the future... her memories are now in the Lifestream... across all of time to boot. And she's also a Cetra, so she lasts longer than most people do.

Relevant OG Scripts

But that doesn't make sense within the OG's lore. The Lifestream itself only exists because of the flow of time(people need to die BEFORE their memories join the Lifestream, so that the planet can use these memories AFTER that, to create new life). The Lifestream needs "before" and "after" to function. It's affected by the flow of time, so how can it exist beyond this flow?

That's something I expect them to explain in the next parts. They need to!

And the most weird thing to me, is that it seems I'm the only one making these questions. It's like the rest of the fanbase doesn't care. I don't see anyone theorizing or discussing about this stuff.

 

[kuroudo]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415814669093146625

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415826631944376320

FUCK THAT KIDS .

In that twitter account u have more story from the LN.

 

[kathy202]

All this time travel, memories, life stream fictional science is getting way too abstract and arbitrary for me to make sense of it. I know there were elements of these in the OG too, but the part of the OG that appealed to me was the constant conflict between nature, technology and capitalism, and that seems to be of secondary importance now. Or maybe I'm just less into fantasy world building these days.

That aside, the new ultimania tidbits are nice. Especially love the one about Cloud's feelings in Tifa's resolution scene. Though the ones around the time travel, memories, Sephiroth manifestations, etc... I wish those didn't need an ultimania to confirm. Would have preferred learning all that from the game itself.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Because the Lifestream is a magical substance and is the raw essence of the dead. The memories of the dead span from the beginning of life all the way to the end of a Planet's existence. If every memory is connected and linked through experience, evolution, and passed down from person to person via the cycle of souls, then if you simply follow the memories you'll reach an end point.

And memories allow for anything to happen. They're the power which all souls are connected to. Memories are what allowed Sephiroth to transcend death in Advent Children and it's what allows the Arbiters of Fate to to move freely through time and space. It's what their made of. Because as long as those memories exist, there's a connection to that point in time.

The powers and memories of the dead allowing connections across time is very much staple Final Fantasy. It's what makes time travel possible in XIII-2, X, and IX. The past and future can be connected by those memories.

 

[null]

Uh, was this discussed already? Does this sound real? Am I the last guy to learn this shit like usual?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415791780734201857

About Cloud's parents
according to an elderly woman from the village, Claudia was some what a rebellious type when she was younger, talked about leaving the village too

What made her stay, was this handsome traveler that Claudia carry in (to the inn she was working for at the time) that she found outside

The woman describe Cloud's father as "a man like wind" that cannot stay in one place, he left the house to explore the other side the mountain (around time when Cloud just starting to walk) and never came back

People later found his belongings, but never his remain, they said the monsters got him

 

[Theozilla]

What with the confusing drawings and the bad translation, I couldn't make head nor tail of what was going on towards the end of Attack on Titan.
Maybe the version of Aerith sending visions to herself via iMateria is the dead one floating around in the timeless Lifestream...

Ha, actually the talk about “future memories” also did remind me of Attack on Titan in that regard. I do wonder if it’s a concept/term/word that makes more natural sense in Japanese than it does in English.

Yeah I still think it's unclear whether or not a coherent FutureAerith is leaking memories into her past selves/self or if it's just a "general memory/data leak" not caused by any specific entity in the future. Plenty ways this can still go.

Honestly, I could see it being equally likely that future installments might keep it deliberately ambiguous as opposed to further defining anything.

 

[Roundhouse]

Looks like President Shinra = Cloud's father can still work!

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The Lifestream isn't just the raw essence of dead people, though. It's made up of the spirit energy of all dead things. It flows out of the dead into the planet and is recycled into new living beings. Bugenhagen's audio visual demonstration made that very clear.

I'm not sure Sephiroth is a reliable narrator, both because of his lack of knowledge and also because of his malevolence. I wouldn't trust the veracity of anything he said.

All this time travel, memories, life stream fictional science is getting way too abstract and arbitrary for me to make sense of it. I know there were elements of these in the OG too, but the part of the OG that appealed to me was the constant conflict between nature, technology and capitalism, and that seems to be of secondary importance now.

I couldn't agree more, Kathy. The fantastical elements that were in the OG existed to provide a context for the discussion of important real-life themes; all the best fantasy and science fiction does this. Now, as you say, the development of these elements seems to have become the dominant purpose of the game. This isn't just a fantasy world any more, it's a completely nonsensical world where people have memories of the future, return from the dead, live in multiple timelines, and have a magical liquid circling their planet that can arbitarily, as you put it, do whatever its creators need it to do at any given point in the plot. None of this has emotional resonance for me. It feels like it's been reduced to a giant Sudoku whose appeal is the challenge of solving it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The Lifestream isn't just the raw essence of dead people, though. It's made up of the spirit energy of all dead things. It flows out of the dead into the planet and is recycled into new living beings. Bugenhagen's audio visual demonstration made that very clear.

I'm not sure Sephiroth is a reliable narrator, both because of his lack of knowledge and also because of his malevolence. I wouldn't trust the veracity of anything he said.

That only makes it more powerful.

Memories are the building blocks of the spirit. The entire nature and raw essence of spirit energy is memories and experiences from all forms of life. And if you take that essence and use it to its fullest, it can take all sorts of forms and dimensions. That's what materia shows is possible. Magic. Evoking past entities that existed thanks to their collective essence being crystalized in pure spirit energy.

The entire essence of the Lifestream yields itself to creating entities and constructs of pure energy, and even areas that distort dimensional space. Hell, Omega, Sin and the Farplane exemplify this. Entire worlds and constructs which exceed the size of their outside appearance are able to to be created and exist just by virtue of being constructed out of pure spirit energy. Memories are able to recall the past or the future, which are able to create pathways to that point in time because the memories and spirits of those in existence from there, create it.

If the Lifestream flows between life and death for every creature that's existed on the planet, and that flow constantly accumulates memories from beginning to end, meaning then those memories are linked together. The Sephiroth is able to reach back from the Edge of Creation back to the present and interact with Cloud and the others isn't a lie. That's real. Sephiroth is there at the point the planet dies, and that moment in time is able to be reached thanks to the Whispers.

I couldn't agree more, Kathy. The fantastical elements that were in the OG existed to provide a context for the discussion of important real-life themes; all the best fantasy and science fiction does this. Now, as you say, the development of these elements seems to have become the dominant purpose of the game. This isn't just a fantasy world any more, it's a completely nonsensical world where people have memories of the future, return from the dead, live in multiple timelines, and have a magical liquid circling their planet that can arbitarily, as you put it, do whatever its creators need it to do at any given point in the plot. None of this has emotional resonance for me. It feels like it's been reduced to a giant Sudoku whose appeal is the challenge of solving it.

Literally none of these concepts are new though. Even time travel. The same person who came up with the core concept of Lifestream came up with the concept of using said memories to travel back in time. And Final Fantasy's first entry debuted with time travel at its core. It's really not nonsense, it's quite consistent with what the fantasy concept of spirit energy is known to do. And death has never been an "end" in Final Fantasy VII, the very nature of life and death are connected. Death gives way to life and vice versa. And memories and experiences transcend time, passing on over and over.

 

[looneymoon]

Cloud thinking of Zack's smile while preparing for Rupaul's Drag Race. We stan a bi king.

 

[Theozilla]

While no one is obligated to enjoy the Remake’s implementation/execution of additional fantastical elements, I would take contention with the implication that additional fantastical elements in of themselves somehow inherently takes away from the thematic resonance of important real life themes, or makes the world nonsensical and/lacking in emotional resonance. As many sci-fi & fantasy stories, including many Final Fantasys, have those elements and more and still have said relevant themes and well built worlds.
Heck, the amount of stuff FFXIV does with fantastical memory elements makes the Remake pale in comparison, and it’s one of my favorite FFs of all time.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Not in the Material Files, but very cool world-building info...

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415882135789920258

And the International War from the Early material Files is being brought back and we *finally* get the name of the country Shinra took over! Hum... wonder who they were fighitng against...

*looks at Wutai*

 

[eleamaya]

Ditto... I hope @eleamaya can give us the Aerith side.. I'm guessing there are a lot of good things for Aerith in there. There are some things I really want to know, but Aerith's childhood was way more covered than Tifa's up until now so there is a lot of catch up with Tifa to do I guess.

Is this supposed to be in Trace of Two Past thread under Compilation section perhaps? This thread is about Material Ultimania Plus.
But' kay, I found two:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415562723962720256

"So Aerith's prayer pose is influenced by Elmyra. I cry when I think of Aerith in the Forgotten City, wearing the White Materia she inherited from Ifalna and praying in the way she learned from Elmyra."

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415538836570923011

"In the Aerith novel, Tseng is definitely involved in the creation of the special district and the monster corpses. There's not a lot of Tseng in this story, but there's a lot of descriptions that make you feel Tseng's presence, and it's bad."

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Saying that the Lifestream is made of the energy of memories isn't the same thing as saying it's a collection of distinct, discreet memories. Memories are not 'the building blocks of the spirit'. Memories are the building blocks of identity, as this game clearly shows, or at least it used to. The Lifestream isn't just a physical fifth element that flows perpetually around the planet. It's also inside every living being. It flows into them at conception and out of them when they die. It's "命", inochi, which (according to Denshi Jisho) translates as both 'life force' and 'destiny'. Identities and their unique memories dissolve in the Lifestream after the death of the physical body. If they didn't, every living entity would be able to remember all of its spirit energy's past lives as a tree, a worm, fish etc... (Unless we imagine some convenient apparatus exists to circumvent this logical conclusion.) The Lifestream is the will of the Planet, and it is the will of the Planet to create life. Individual lives come and go; life is eternal.

If people like the kind of thing FFVII is turning into, that's great. I am, however, allowed to dislike the focus on timey-wimey stuff without being told that I'm somehow insufficiently appreciative of the elements of fantasy.

The fact that other FF have well built worlds doesn't entail the conclusion that the FFVII Remake does also. It may eventually turn out to have one, but the jury should still be out right now.

If the Lifestream flows between life and death for every creature that's existed on the planet, and that flow constantly accumulates memories from beginning to end, meaning then those memories are linked together. The Sephiroth is able to reach back from the Edge of Creation back to the present and interact with Cloud and the others isn't a lie. That's real. Sephiroth is there at the point the planet dies, and that moment in time is able to be reached thanks to the Whispers.

I can appreciate that you and many other fans are very excited by this concept, but to me it's completely underwhelming.

 

[Makoeyes987]

saying that the Lifestream is made of the energy of memories isn't the same thing as saying it's a collection of distinct, discreet memories. Memories are not 'the building blocks of the spirit'.

No, they are. That's literally what the definition of Lifestream is since the OG. Memories are the building blocks that make up the soul. It makes up consciousness. That's how you get magic, summons, and unique command materia. Knowledge, memories and consciousness make up core elements of the spirit which in turn, creates spirit energy. Which in turn, creates the Lifestream.

The Lifestream isn't just a physical fifth element that flows perpetually around the planet. It's also inside every living being. It flows into them at conception and out of them when they die. Identities and their unique memories dissolve in the Lifestream after the death of the physical body. If they didn't, every living entity would be able to remember all of its spirit energy's past lives as a tree, a worm, fish etc... (Unless we imagine some convenient apparatus exists to circumvent this logical conclusion.) The Lifestream is the will of the Planet, and it is the will of the Planet to create life. Individual lives come and go; life is eternal.

It most certainly is a "fifth element" because it exists and can be extracted and turned into a literal magical form of energy who's output is beyond any other known form of regular fuel. It can literally work as a philosopher's stone and make magic happen. Yes, it exists in every living being, but it also can in turn be made into magic, mako energy, materia, or used to distort space-time because its power is beyond anything imaginable. It's power is immeasurable because it's the power of the soul.

And yes, those past memories do exist within all living things. That's the point. Memories pass down from existence to existence, forming the makeup of all life and refining it. Those experiences from life return to the collective, allow life to evolve and the spirit energy grows in strength. That's how it continues to maintain itself. Those memories aren't gone, they simply get buried and recirculated throughout life.

 

[kathy202]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415892077926260738

I recall there being a discussion on whether Reno knew Cloud was no SOLDIER. Well, turns out Rude has some clue. Was I supposed to infer that he did from the dialog? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ oh well, interesting to note anyway

 

[Makoeyes987]

Why would they actually believe Cloud was a SOLDIER 1-C?

The fact they don't recognize him and he's supposedly a First Class is the biggest clue that he's fake. Of course Rude didn't buy it.

 

[Odysseus]

I mean, the Turks are the ones who scout SOLDIERs to begin with. It was already clear that Reno thought he was full of it when he said he was 1st class.

 

[kathy202]

I wasn't expecting them to believe it. It's obvious they don't. But I guess the translation seems to imply that he saw through some lie, as opposed to just doubting a claim. But I'm probably over interpreting a translation at this point.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I mean, yeah. He saw through Cloud's lie.

That's not that big of a deal, it's a statement that Rude was also dubious of his claim. And he even provoked him with it.

 

[Odysseus]

Also, isn't the fact that the lifestream is made up of discordant memories the reason for mako poisoning? When Tifa falls in in Mideel she acts like she's talking to people for a minute before she gets overwhelmed. Then, during the sequence proper, she's going through and seeing his memories so she can clear up his misconceptions about the past and help him remember.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Also, isn't the fact that the lifestream is made up of discordant memories the reason for mako poisoning? When Tifa falls in in Mideel she acts like she's talking to people for a minute before she gets overwhelmed. Then, during the sequence proper, she's going through and seeing his memories so she can clear up his misconceptions about the past and help him remember.

Yes, it's memories, knowledge, emotions, everything. It flows into a person's mind and like a container unable to contain it all, their mind bursts and the ego disintegrates.

EDIT: And here's the reason why Reno and Rude cannot see the Whispers.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415948640732864512

They apparently aren't important enough to

That basically means only those who are actors on the stage of the Planet's fate are capable of perceiving them. It's like a sense.... So certain individuals are capable to some degree based on that. Pretty fucking wild.