Spoony versus FFX

[Makoeyes987]

Well, can we agree that you very frequently get emotional/passionate with Que, then?

I get that way with anyone though. I don't see any frequency going on with anyone, regarding my passionate posting style. It's not personal. It's the subject. That should be pretty obvious. I've gotten pretty heated with you too.

True dat.

Yup, you're right.

OH DAMNIT.

 

[Vendel]

I need to get a shirt made. "Spoony Was Right".

 

[Makoeyes987]

...What was he right about?

 

[Strangelove]

Thiis thread didn't make me want to watch these videos, but has made me want to play FFX again

 

[looneymoon]

I didn't watch any of the videos

 

[Max Caulfield]

I need to get a shirt made. "Spoony Was Right".

I'd wear that shirt just because I don't think anyone would get it.

 

[Vendel]

...What was he right about?

Everything.

:jackrape:

 

[Celes Chere]

I'm just finding it weird (i.e. nonsensical) to not like someone based on traits that no longer apply to them.

Wakka is annoying as FUCK without being bigoted. Why are people trying to defend him? Now THAT'S where things really get senseless.

 

[Joker]

I'm just finding it weird (i.e. nonsensical) to not like someone based on traits that no longer apply to them.

Just because he doesn't act like a bigot anymore doesn't change the fact that he was, and said and did things that are wrong because of religious overzealousness. I don't see us forgiving Al Qaeda for their Islamic extremism, do you?

Come on meg, you're really gonna tell me an insensitive comment is on par with murdering a family member?

People are hesitant to trust a reformed murderer because if they relapse - they freaking kill someone. If Wakka relapses, he'll just insult Rikku. (Who's a pain in the ass anyway ) Beyond that even, I wasn't really talking about the way the "world works," I was talking about you.

@looneymoon: And that's fine, but that's not really what Omega is saying (though it may well be true), he's saying Wakka can't overcome his past failings in his (Omega's) eyes.

Did I say that? Your argument is that I shouldn't dislike Wakka because he spent MOST of the game being an asshole, and that he didn't hurt anyone. And that's crap. Also remember that Yuna is half Al Bhed, AND Rikku's cousin. Pretty sure Wakka trashing her and her people like that isn't going to make her feel AWESOME. The fact that Wakka doesn't know she's Al Bhed is irrelevant, because he's being himself without the constraints of taking someone's feelings into consideration - he's being real.

No, we're not talking about me. I'm saying that that's the way things are. Just because you're sorry you did something doesn't change the fact that you DID it. I was in this Bible study type thing once, and there was a lesson once about relationships with people, and how we treat them. To illustrate the effect of our actions on others, we were told to crumple up a piece of aluminum foil, then straighten it out. The obvious lesson was that once it's done, it's done, and you can't take it back or make up for it - it has changed your relationship with that person forever. They can get over it, you can make up and still be cool, but that wrinkle will be there forever. And that is my point. Additionally, who's to say that one incident isn't enough to push Wakka over the edge and kill an Al Bhed? He blames them for his brother's death and hates them because of that (and Yevon), even though it's a bullshit reason to begin with. How can you say that he won't relapse and do something worse? But if we're going to make this personal and about ME and MY worldview - no, someone mumbling an apology and trying to make up for it doesn't mean that my negative feelings toward them immediately go away like that. (note that I've not once dogged on X-2 Wakka...hmmm, I wonder why?)

Also, do me a favor and don't put words in my mouth like that. It's not the first time you've done it and it's rather grating.


And yes, Looney, you're correct. I've always found Wakka annoying, even beyond the bigotry. I never warmed up to his personality, and this is also part of why I still don't like him, even though he's repented - he still has no really redeeming qualities to make him likable. Even if you ignore his bigotry entirely (which is obviously a refreshing bit of social commentary on the real world, boys and girls), there's nothing about him that makes me like him. He's uninteresting.





By the way, I have the same type of feelings about Yuna. I make like the journey, but I still don't like her as a character. Please, feel free to rip into me for that, too.

 

[Makoeyes987]

At the very least, you understand Wakka's character and can acknowledge the growth and change he's underwent. That's respectable.

No one can fault you for what you like or dislike as long as you're well reasoned and aren't just speaking from ignorance or stupidity.

If you hate Yuna or Wakka, that's fine. You get them though, so I don't see what's the big deal.

 

[Celes Chere]

I wanted to thank your post.

Then I saw this:

By the way, I have the same type of feelings about Yuna.

=P

I don't see how anyone could hate/dislike Yuna, for a reason other than they just don't like that type of character. There is absolutely no reason otherwise to dislike her, especially when comparing her to Wakka. She's not a bigot, and she certainly has never insulted anyone who didn't deserve it. A lot of what she did was for other people, and to save them. She put others before herself almost always, and she DOES take a stand for herself. She's a lot like Princess Garnet, who started off timid and shy, but grew as a character to save the people that respected her. Sure, both characters might be a bit naive, but it's within reason.

 

[Max Caulfield]

I wanted to thank your post.

Then I saw this:


=P

I don't see how anyone could hate/dislike Yuna, for a reason other than they just don't like that type of character. There is absolutely no reason otherwise to dislike her, especially when comparing her to Wakka. She's not a bigot, and she certainly has never insulted anyone who didn't deserve it. A lot of what she did was for other people, and to save them. She put others before herself almost always, and she DOES take a stand for herself. She's a lot like Princess Garnet, who started off timid and shy, but grew as a character to save the people that respected her. Sure, both characters might be a bit naive, but it's within reason.

THANK YOU. I've never understood why people don't like Yuna. :/

 

[Celes Chere]

I don't get it either. XD Same reason why people hate Aerith, Garnet, and so on. A lot of people think that 'damsel' type characters are weak and useless... but they're not.

 

[Joker]

I liked Yuna quite a bit, once she stops being Yevon's lapdog. Before that, though, she's not so different from everyone else, eating up everything Yevon has to say. But at the same time, I get that, because that's what EVERYONE has been doing for a millenia. This is where the comparison to Wakka comes in - yes, they're completely different, but I like that they grow and change as characters over the course of the game, even though I don't entirely like them, the actual people. (Although in Wakka's case, I don't like him, period, while Yuna has a number of redeeming qualities and I spend at least the last 15% of the game liking her quite a bit [though not as much as Rikku and Auron]).

What bugs me is that never did anything just for her. Not so much that she was selfish - more that she didn't do something JUST because she wanted to do it, for HER. She spent the entire game making sacrifices for everyone else, in large part because it was what was expected of her. She even says on the boat to Luca that it's hard following in her father's footsteps as a summoner because everyone knows who he is. She's agreeing with Tidus' sentiments about having a famous father, which can, to some extent, be explained by the radio announcer at the beginning of the game as you're walking along the road - people expect great things of you. To me (and this is my opinion - maybe I'm wrong, and if so, then that changes a lot), Yuna may have become a summoner to help people, but isn't she doing it because she's Braska's daughter, and that's what people expect of her? All eyes are on her, and she has to be absolutely perfect for everyone, because otherwise, they're all disappointed in her. Which means she has to conform to and live by what everyone around her wants to be, rather than just be herself.

Granted, a large part of it is because of Sin, but still. The only thing that Yuna does just for her is fall in love with Tidus.

...and then fast forward to X-2 where she flies around the world trying to find Tidus, which is something she does...just for her.

I can get over her being soft-spoken; that's not really a big deal. But I don't like it when people try to live their lives by devoting them to making everyone else happy, because it means that they themselves can never be happy, since their happiness thusly depends on satisfying everyone else around them. When do they get to live their life for them? There's making sacrifices to make people happy, and then there's slavishly following what they want you to do.

Even when Yuna runs off with Seymour, it's only to save her friends - NOT because it's what she wants to do.

Not that I'm saying she should be a selfish bitch, either. Just that her not really trying to live for her own happiness at all kind of bugs me. I don't like it when people don't do that IRL, either.


Edit: Especially when her actions are contrasting. Yevonic dogma is law to her...yet she sticks up for Tidus on the way to Luca, a guy she doesn't even know, and vehemently defends him from the Goers, who are making fun of him, and truly believes his story about being from Zanarkand. She believes him BEFORE she knows he's Jecht's son, when there's literally no reason to, especially based on what she's been taught all her life.

Paradox =/

 

[Max Payne]

There are the reasons not to like Yuna much right there.

 

[Celes Chere]

I liked Yuna quite a bit, once she stops being Yevon's lapdog. Before that, though, she's not so different from everyone else, eating up everything Yevon has to say. But at the same time, I get that, because that's what EVERYONE has been doing for a millenia. This is where the comparison to Wakka comes in - yes, they're completely different, but I like that they grow and change as characters over the course of the game, even though I don't entirely like them, the actual people. (Although in Wakka's case, I don't like him, period, while Yuna has a number of redeeming qualities and I spend at least the last 15% of the game liking her quite a bit [though not as much as Rikku and Auron]).

Uh, okay? But this is what everyone believes in, and for a reason. They were born into a world where death is certain without the success of the summoner and the teachings of Yevon. Yuna also had her Father to think about, who she clearly loved. Part of her choice also involved her thoughts of him. No one knows that the system is corrupt yet, including Yuna. When she finds out about the lies, she abandons her faith. It's a very hard decision for her, but she does it even though there's Wakka going "YOU GUYS WE CAN'T DO THIS IT'S AGAINST YEVON, THIS MUST BE HAPPENING BECAUSE WE PISSED OFF YEVON". Yuna doesn't think anything like that though, and she loves ALL people, no matter what they believe or what they look like, or what race they are. =| I don't see the comparision at all between her and Wakka.

What bugs me is that never did anything just for her.

Now that is plain just not true. And what's wrong with mostly putting others before yourself? I say, it's pretty damn admirable to never think about yourself and to stick up for others. But Yuna wasn't a doormatt, either. She had her moments of struggles and confusion, she wouldn't be a GOOD character if she didn't, but SHE DID do things for herself. She stuck up to Seymour, and wanted to do things on her own. Hencewhy she left the party. True, she also wanted to protect them, but it was her decision that she made for herself. The fact that she chooses to be a summoner and a sacrifice, is HER choice. Now, I won't lie and say she did a lot of things for herself, most of what she did was for the good of others. I don't get how this is somehow a bad quality.

but isn't she doing it because she's Braska's daughter, and that's what people expect of her? All eyes are on her, and she has to be absolutely perfect for everyone, because otherwise, they're all disappointed in her. Which means she has to conform to and live by what everyone around her wants to be, rather than just be herself.

Not entirely, of course being a summoner comes with alot of responsibilities and expectations, and she is insecure about those expectations, which is perfectly normal. The way you word it suggests that she actually does not care about others, which is not true at all.

 

[Joker]

Yeah, but the thing is, why is it that nobody in the entire world questions some of the things that they do? They vilify the Al Bhed because they use machina and don't go by the teachings, so they're inciting people to hate others based on prejudice, and not who they are as people. And everyone just thinks that's swell? =/ And like I said, once she abandons Yevon's BS, I like her a lot. XD

There's nothing wrong with putting other people before yourself. But there's a point where it's a bit excessive, too, isn't there? Additionally, the thing with Seymour wasn't something she WANTED to do; she did it to save her friends, not because she was just dying to go enjoy Seymour's rape flavored popsicles in the basement (he's totally a pedophile, btw - just LOOK at the guy!). All I'm saying is that she needed to do a little more for herself, and doing what SHE wanted, and not what the world wanted her to do. She didn't act based on her own wants or needs as a human - her only real moments for that were the romance bits with Tidus, like the Macalania mini-lake kissing scene. And it's especially important for her to do things like that for herself, to LIVE, since she's a summoner - her life is going to be over really, REALLY soon, and rather than take the time to stop and smell a flower and savor what little of her life is left, she continues to push herself because people are counting on her to defeat Sin (which, btw, raises the question of why nobody in the past ever tried to defeat Sin without sacrificing the summoner, or how it is that they managed to vilify machina and get people to NOT use them, when a single airship FUCKED homeboy up something BAD; easier to get over the loss of a dozen airships than that of a single human life).

And I'm not suggesting that she doesn't care about others, AT ALL. I'm saying that it's like she's afraid of disappointing everyone, so she doesn't feel free to be herself. Yes, she's a summoner in very large part because she cares, but you can't say that a very large part isn't also because it's what people expect, and not because she's thrilled at the idea of dying for everyone else. She's still a teenager, and has already come to terms with the fact that she's going to die to save people for a short while. But she never once hesitates or is afraid of it, or scared of dying. That's not realistic to me. I'd give my life to save the people I care about - hell, I'd do it to save the world, no problem - but I'd still be terrified during the buildup and even when the time came. I'd do it, but I'd be scared.

 

[looneymoon]

But... she IS scared of dying. That's what the makeout scene was about. I can understand not liking her, but I disagree with calling her unrealistic.

 

[Joker]

I've not played in a while, so my memory of that scene's a bit fuzzy, I won't lie :x

 

[Celes Chere]

Yeah, but the thing is, why is it that nobody in the entire world questions some of the things that they do? They vilify the Al Bhed because they use machina and don't go by the teachings, so they're inciting people to hate others based on prejudice, and not who they are as people. And everyone just thinks that's swell? =/ And like I said, once she abandons Yevon's BS, I like her a lot. XD

LOL don't ask me. It's kind of a worldwide thing that is smashed into your brain from when you are very young. What else are you supposed to believe in when GODZIRRA is leaving a path of death and destruction and the only way to bring about the calm, is to pray to Yevon? XD If I grew up with those teachings, I'd probably believe it. Kind of like how you're taught that stealing and harming others is wrong - they're taught that disobeying Yevon is wrong and will bring about misfortune. =P Not EVERYONE thinks that's swell, but the majority of people view mistreatment of something that could save the world, as disrespectful. <XD Yuna never once hated anyone anyway though for that, and I'm speaking about Yuna, so what's the point of all of that? Lol.

Yeah, I'd agree that not ever doing something for yourself is a bad thing, just because if you're doing good for others you DESERVE it. People like her don't view themselves that way though. I'm just trying to say that Yuna is no pushover to her teachings, or to others out to get her. If she were, then she'd have just accepted Seymour's marriage without doing anything about it. She'd have been too scared to carry on, or acted selfishly. But she did not, she always stood up for others and she stood up for herself too. So, a reason to dislike Yuna is because she cares TOO MUCH? I think that's a bit silly of a reason to dislike her. Well, there you go that's a perfect example. Her romance with Tidus is something that she does for herself, and it's something that makes her happy. She is living - she makes a point of saying that laughing and being around her friends is one of the most important things. And when she's sad, she says that she always tries to smile. How the hell is that her not appreciating the life that she has set out in front of her? How is that not her enjoying the time she has, even though she knows her life is ending? Mostly, Yuna tried to think positively about things instead of dreading what was to come. She can't just lollygag either though, because saving the world is kind of a big deal. She works hard for the sake of others, is that really so wrong? O_O

Of course she's afraid of disappointment. Who wouldn't be in that situation? I don't think she's not being her real self, though. There are times when she bottles things inside and all, but everything she displays makes up what is her character: Kind, determined, caring, naive, strong willed, insecure - it all adds up to who she is, flaws alike. She's not thrilled of the idea, who would be? But that doesn't make her a bad person. She has a goal for her short lifespan. Why is it wrong for her to try and live up to that, and to be great? So you're saying you dislike characters who aren't like you?

Anyway,
Yuna's good bye sphere shows her thankfulness for her friends. The sadness of leaving everyone behind, and her fears. Like hell she wasn't afraid during that journey, she made it clear - She was afraid, but she had to it to save everyone. She even says it hurts and that she's afraid.

 

[Joker]

You're missing my point. I'm not saying what she's doing is wrong. I'm saying that I don't like that aspect of her personality. I've also said multiple times that I like her a lot more once she starts thinking for herself, instead of blindly following Yevon.

I didn't say she's a bad person. And I also didn't say I don't like characters that aren't like me. I'm giving a number of reasons why I don't like things about her.

 

[Celes Chere]

I know, most of what I say is pent up ranting that I'm getting out about people that don't like Yuna. xD Anyway, you said she wasn't realistic so I posted about that, and how I understand that she has her flaws, but I think they are reasonable. You can like or dislike whatever you want, I'm just sticking up for her character. And I know you've said you like her afterwards, I think she's a good character overall, that's all. So I don't really get still why people dislike her, but they certainly have every right to. Owo

Um... sorry if I offended you, that wasn't a serious statement, obviously. =I

 

[Joker]

Yeah, but I'm not saying her flaws are UNreasonable, either. I'm just saying that the things that I mentioned are what I don't like about her. XD I'm no passing judgment on her as a person - just expressing my opinion on her motivations.

Live for the people of Spira if that's what YOU want, instead of what they expect you to do. But do a little for yourself, too - I don't really think it's selfish to "lollygag" a little when you're going to give up your entire future so everyone else can be happy. There's a ton of other summoners out there and all.

 

[Celes Chere]

just expressing my opinion on her motivations.

So was I. =P And Yuna was happy, and did have her fun, but whatever you say. XD

 

[Joker]

And in all this time, STILL don't have an answer to that pyrefly thing =/

I think that in X-2, Yuna was more "live for me"-ish while still trying to save the world. Unfortunately, she was also way too into girl power and the need to be like Tidus. (clothing) But a better example is the factioning thing - she chose not to be the big new leader of Spira, even though that's what people wanted. Good for her, I say. But it makes me wonder why she wasn't more like that before she found out Yevon was a lie - she was resigned to her fate as a summoner (dying), but never really said "hold up - before I become a summoner, what if there's a way to kill Sin permanently, or that I can defeat it without having to die?"