The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[Strangelove]

I'd argue with you lot more, but I'm just so gosh darn busy. I've got this life, you see. I'd love to stay and chat, but you know what lives are like. Don't you?

But you can rest assured that I'm absolutely right. Would I lie to you?

No. Only Mako would.

 

[Rinoa]

I really don't like how certain shippers think that everyone who goes with the canon is therefore a shipper. Believe it or not, some of us actually don't care and don't have an ulterior motive (i.e. self-insertion, a whole forum and/or life dedicated to the pairing).

Also what bugs me is that this was an excellent J->E localization, but certain shippers like to think they understand the language better than native speakers, despite admitting that they know nothing and having nothing but dictionaries or google to nitpick with. To say nothing about the usage of a word in context.

 

[null.]

I just spent the last hour+ reading that discussion and I can honestly say I have not had such a good laugh from a troll ever.

Oh man, you need to meet some better trolls. I've never read anything remotely funny or clever from that guy. That he worked so hard to get ridiculed is mildly amusing, I suppose.

 

[Strangelove]

On that note, I would like to hear people's comments on the localization, because that was one of the points I tried to work on with this. I don't do a lot of creative writing (not as much as I should), so it was something I tried to pay special attention to, since I didn't want it to read like a literal word-for-word translation, I wanted it to read like something that might have conceivably been written in English original. That was why I changed some stuff around. Just picking out what the dictionary says doesn't cut it every time.

I don't mind people saying, "that sounds strange" or "you got that bit wrong." I'm not going to cry into my Cheerios at the tiniest bit of criticism, as long as it's constructive criticism. Most of the time it's simply "he must be wrong for some reason we haven't found yet."

 

[Ryushikaze]

There's one bit that reads oddly. "spirit had suddenly appeared near here." Supposed to be Her, or here?

 

[Strangelove]

'Her', I edited that once, but I guess Mako didn't get that edit

 

[Tennyo]

Weird coincidence, I'm watching a movie which was apparently based off of the Twelfth Night.

Cookie to anybody who gets it.

She da MAN!

Cookie nao plox

 

[Reference]

I think it sounds good like that Hito. It is a novella; it's a creative work and should be enjoyed as such. Literal word for word would sound dull and take away from the experience of engaging with the narrative.

 

[Tennyo]

So who posted on the front page as Basch? That was win, regardless of the point they were trying to make. XD

 

[Masamune]

There's a lot of LTD to shovel through, so forgive me in advance but why would 'koibito' (meaning lover/sweetheart) be used between Cloud & Aerith? This word was often used to confirm Cloud & Tifa's relationship. I don't understand why such a definitive word would then be used for Cloud & Aerith as well.

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

There's a lot of LTD to shovel through, so forgive me in advance but why would 'koibito' (meaning lover/sweetheart) be used between Cloud & Aerith? This word was often used to confirm Cloud & Tifa's relationship. I don't understand why such a definitive word would then be used for Cloud & Aerith as well.

I think the frustrations I read in that long nasty debate is that certain people rush to their dictionary to pigeon hole words to precise meaning for their own precise purpose - rather than look to understand the flexibility within the perametres of the language's syntax.

Koibito - from what I understand - can refer to someone as part of a couple or as a description of someone's feelings - just as it can in English. I can love chocolate, or be a lover of a chocolate without chocolate being so gooey to love me back (though I do make it gooey, but that's thanks to my internal juices than some affection on the chocolate's part). I can also be a lover and people will know that means I'm part of a couple. It's the context that matters, and where you need someone with a good understanding of the nuances of the language - and not simply someone using babelfish to understand that flexibility.

The issue in that mainpage thread is one person looking to define a word on the basis of their wish and trying to encourage that standpoint through a dictionary rather than classes in Japanese. That being said, as I have described, you can see the nuances of linguistic definition in our own language to encourage that leap of faith that other languages might be just as complicated.

 

[Fighter]

It's just a word that means one's love/lover, what's so definitive or special about it? The only thing a little strange to me is that they came back to pushing the idea that Aerith loves Cloud without bothering with all the complexities such as Cloud's real persona vs. his Zakcified one.

Koibito - from what I understand - can refer to someone as part of a couple or as a description of someone's feelings - just as it can in English. I can love chocolate, or be a lover of a chocolate without chocolate being so gooey to love me back (though I do make it gooey, but that's thanks to my internal juices than some affection on the chocolate's part). I can also be a lover and people will know that means I'm part of a couple. It's the context that matters, and where you need someone with a good understanding of the nuances of the language - and not simply someone using babelfish to understand that flexibility.

Well. If you use "koi" as love for chocolate that's kinky... to say the least. (koi = specifically romantic/sexual love).

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

So who posted on the front page as Basch? That was win, regardless of the point they were trying to make. XD

That was me.

 

[Masamune]

When people argued the ambiguity of 'koibito' used for Cloud & Tifa, they were told that it meant lover/partner and that was that. Now it's denoting Cloud & Aerith's relationship, the context of the word has changed.

It's just a word that means one's love/lover, what's so definitive or special about it? The only thing a little strange to me is that they came back to pushing the idea that Aerith loves Cloud without bothering with all the complexities such as Cloud's real persona vs. his Zakcified one.

This is really what I'm getting at. I don't think I would ever consider Cloud Aerith's sweetheart/love/lover/darling. She never interacted with the real Cloud, and her attraction to him emanated from her feelings for Zack. Surely 'companion' would have been the congruent term.

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

Well. If you use "koi" as love for chocolate that's kinky... to say the least. (koi = specifically romantic/sexual love).

The chocolate was a glib example of how one can take a dictionary definition and underestimate the application of a word, rather than a direct example of koibito itself.

Unlike certain antagonistic individuals, I don't attempt to lecture on the specifics of a language I don't speak, merely on a broader point that language is far more complex than what you learn straight from a dictionary - or more likely in this case - an internet translator.

Anyway, I thought the female love of chocolate was meant to surpass or physical sexual experiences - or is that an indication of my woeful skills as a lover, that I've been beaten by a fused brown lump of artificial sugars and coco beans? I think the world would rather not know.

When people argued the ambiguity of 'koibito' used for Cloud & Tifa, they were told that it meant lover/partner and that was that. Now it's denoting Cloud & Aerith's relationship, the context of the word has changed.

I think that again would underestimate the versatility of language. To be fair, what was said was in the context of the sentence, the word was appropriated as a lover, not as description of Tifa's personality, ergo, it referred to a status, not her characteristics.

I don't think H ever suggested it was solely to mean lovers (in fact, my hazy memory recalls him stating that this word was held no definitive properties to its use), but in the context of its use, it did - which the evidence elsewhere supports.

I'm sure other people played a more hardline, I don't doubt that (myself included quite probably), but that's because we don't speak Japanese, don't pretend to speak Japanese and work solely from sources we can document.

Bottomline, H's translation clarified it meant lover in the context, there was a dispute it didn't from certain others, sources were brought out to prove it could mean lover in terms of being a boyfriend/girlfriend. Which is really where the debate focused. I don't think anyone really looked to see how it could be applied in translations that held a different construct and context.

The one person I would trust on this is H - and I don't think he's been inconsistent to the potential of the word's properties.

 

[Masamune]

I remember cynics argued that its use in the Reunion Files could apply to the love Tifa receives from her family and friends (as a sweetheart). That's a fair point, actually. It doesn't specify Cloud, after all. Of course, we don't need that to validate their relationship, but it still sounds like a general statement to me rather than shipping Cloti. I think everyone who used koibito to solidify Cloud & Tifa's relationship will be bitten on the ass now the same word is used between Cloud & Aerith.

And H is all lady, Sans. D:

 

[Fighter]

When people argued the ambiguity of 'koibito' used for Cloud & Tifa, they were told that it meant lover/partner and that was that. Now it's denoting Cloud & Aerith's relationship, the context of the word has changed.

That's not entirely true. The meaning of the word as either beloved or lover has been mentioned before in the old ACF threads long before this. I have personally brought it up multiple times. If someone has access to the old ACF archives they can go and check.

The only reason that lover/partner was used most of the time is because Tifa's feelings for Cloud have never been questioned -- therefore the relevant and proven ambiguity inherent to the word was rarely discussed -- and if one assumes from the start that Tifa loves Cloud then the only possible context that she can be called "koibito" is when it means lover as opposed to beloved.

The accusation that we have changed our stance is the product of those shippers' selective memories and inattentive reading.

 

[Masamune]

Ah, but you see Cloud isn't mentioned in that sentence. Without his name there, it could simply have the meaning I implied above. The problem is the emphasis put on this word during the LTD. People have got too hung on its meaning, instead of the tangible evidence in the game/animation.

For example, the heroine, Yuria, in Hokuto no Ken is coveted by a handful of the series' characters. Now if her profile said 'she is a sweetheart, mother etc.' I could not argue it's denoting her relationship as the hero's lover, as 'sweetheart' could apply to the other characters who adore her. Same goes for Tifa. Even if we know she's with Cloud, koibito is being used generally from the sounds of it.

 

[Fighter]

Ah, but you see Cloud isn't mentioned in that sentence. Without his name there, it could simply have the meaning I implied above. The problem is the emphasis put on this word during the LTD. People have got too hung on its meaning, instead of the tangible evidence in the game/animation.

Unless I've forgotten everything we've been discussing in the past year or so, "koi" and it's derivatives are specifically romantic/sexual hence the reason why it doesn't apply to Tifa being loved in general by her family but rather applies to her being the object of romantic interest. The word you are both looking for is something with "ai" which is love in general. H can correct me, but I'm fairly sure he never said the opposite.

We have for a very long time maintained that if anyone can prove otherwise with any kind of legitimate example that koibito can mean sweetheart in any other definition other than romantic, we'll take everything we've said back. No one could ever find one, not Hito, not any of the multiple 'clerith' translators that claimed to know something.

If it can mean what you say then I'm sure such example would not be too difficult to find.

For example, the heroine, Yuria, in Hokuto no Ken is coveted by a handful of the series' characters. Now if her profile said 'she is a sweetheart, mother etc.' I could not argue it's denoting her relationship as the hero's lover, as 'sweetheart' could apply to the other characters who adore her. Same goes for Tifa. Even if we know she's with Cloud, koibito is being used generally from the sounds of it.

But does an example where it's understood this way exist? Because we've been asking that for a while.

 

[Masamune]

Okay, I understand now that the 'koi' part of the word carries romantic connotations over the general meaning of love. But Cloud was not Aerith's sweetheart/lover, so again I have to question the use of the word in this instance. The word seems a little strong for me, considering any romance they could have had was cut short.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Cloud was her friend, her beloved — a symbol of what was important to her, and someone to be protected.

A symbol of WHAT, exactly? Something the reader already knows: he's Zack's living legacy, which also means he needs to be protected from those who wish to kill him, simple as that.

 

[Fighter]

Okay, I understand now that the 'koi' part of the word carries romantic connotations over the general meaning of love. But Cloud was not Aerith's sweetheart/lover, so again I have to question the use of the word in this instance. The word seems a little strong for me, considering any romance they could have had was cut short.

She has said she loved Cloud in Maiden, so it's not new. Where the novella fails is in exploring the relevant complexity of her relationship with Cloud, but then we do have to consider everything within the context of the whole story.

 

[Strangelove]

It would have to refer to romantic love. I've asked people specifically if you could use it in the way 'sweetheart' is used in English, and always got told you can't.

I think it was brought up on ACF or this forum before, but it can have a subjective use. You can think, "they are my koibito," but that other person might not feel the same. In that case, it's being said from the person's own subjective viewpoint and doesn't necessarily reflect what others think.

Boiled down to it's most basic usage, it is the person that someone loves. But people will assume that there's a mutual relationship, which is why some people found this usage a bit strange. Because I think you'd really have to push it to make out that Cloud and Aerith had a proper relationship within FFVII.

 

[Munatik]

 

[Ryushikaze]

It would have to refer to romantic love. I've asked people specifically if you could use it in the way 'sweetheart' is used in English, and always got told you can't.

I think it was brought up on ACF or this forum before, but it can have a subjective use. You can think, "they are my koibito," but that other person might not feel the same. In that case, it's being said from the person's own subjective viewpoint and doesn't necessarily reflect what others think.

Boiled down to it's most basic usage, it is the person that someone loves. But people will assume that there's a mutual relationship, which is why some people found this usage a bit strange. Because I think you'd really have to push it to make out that Cloud and Aerith had a proper relationship within FFVII.

This is quite a good explanation, and brings out the distinction between the two quotes. Aerith's quote simply tells us she has romantic love for Cloud. Tifa's quote tells us she is romantically loved by a person, the only logical choice for who is doing the loving is the man she is repeatedly paired with and discussed in relation to.