The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[DrakeClawfang]

I have a feeling I'm gonna regret posting in this thread, but, here I am.

For the record, it wasn't I who copy and pasted the translations to the thread there. I originally posted the link to the translations here, it was one of the staff members who edited my post and added the translations directly. If this is a problem I can request the C&P be removed.

For me, it's not so much not trusting the translator, as it is not trusting the translation. Hito did a great job translating, the flow and structure were excellent and engaging. I don't question his fluency with Japanese at all. That said, I don't speak Japanese, though I wish I did, but I have read translations of various Japanese material and know that sometimes the translations can be spotty all around. For example, take a look at this scene from "Dissidia":

Onion Knight: You obtain your crystal when you change. A certain someone taught me that. He told me that "the crystal lies in the brilliance of your determination." That's why, as long as you follow your greatest desire, you'll be all right.

Terra: My greatest desire? I don't know what that is yet.

Onion Knight: Because we can change, we have the crystals. Someone who had a crystal told me so. He said, "The crystals shine with the decisions we make for the future". That's why when you find your strongest feelings, it'll just come to you naturally.

Terra: My strongest feelings? I guess I just don't know right now.

The same scene, two different translators, both of whom speak fluent Japanese, and two very different results. Which one is more correct? Who knows? Plus, remember SE has never been very good with FF7 translations - turn on the subtitles for "Advent Children" sometime, and quiet often the subtitles and the voices will say totally different things. And who can forget "this guy are sick"?

So, hito, thank you very much for the translations, they were excellent and I very much appreciate them. Still, I'm a bit hesitant about them. Nothing personal, that's just how I approach any translation regardless of source. IMO, it's only once you cross-reference several translations of the same material that you can really get a true feeling for what was originally being said.

 

[Danna]

Danna... do I know you from the Bleach fandom? /random

If you're the same Ninira I claimed on BA, then yes :3

 

[A]

@ DrakeClawfang: It's not much of a problem when people link pages to this site here, but it's when people start accusing others of being biased and accusing of people who actually look do their job instead of changing it the way they want it to be. Being hesitant isn't a bad thing, but disregarding them because of simply one word (that pertains to the LTD)is foolish and quite frankly, really, really sad. Not saying you're doing that though, just trying to point out to the person in the front page.

Otherwise, yeah, hito did a great job. Nice to see people taking their time to do this.

 

[ShuShu]

Hey, that's not fair, ShuShu. It takes a LOT of work to copy paste all of the information here, to post on their site! Be a little sympathetic, would you?

You know what? Your right. I feel like a total ass right now, so I'll go about giving a proper apology.

I'm sorry for insulting all you little Clerii out there, I know how sensitive you bunch are about your...'affliction' and whatnot. I understand how hard it must be on you, when I truly think about it, trust me I do, I was a HarryXHermoine shipper once upon a Chamber of Secrets...

Well...The pain of having to copy and paste information that rips your heart out and relay it to others that will get their hearts ripped out and then have to lie, twist, and manipulate its every work and blame everyone and everything but your own warped interpretation, that doesnt add to the dot with yours, and go about living in such a fake, fabricated, and delusional world, that really must be tough, though it does make me wonder why they keep coming back for more...

Again little Pinkers, I am sorry, it must be so hard on you, your all truly victims, and I am a grade A asshole who is just ensnared by the thought of Tifa's boobies, and my pervertedness keeps me from being a literate human being, please forgive me.

Anyways.
Yeah.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

If you're the same Ninira I claimed on BA, then yes :3

I am! :o Cool beans!

@ Drake: I think the matter of 'correct vs. incorrect' translation depends on how close it comes to the official English translation, excluding godawful translations and typos like the first FF7 game.

 

[Isabella]

Even an "official" translation is still one guy's opinion, isn't it? Translating isn't an exact science. It's a series of judgment calls. Do you think any of the main creative team at SE understands English well enough to look over official translations and say, "yeah, that's what we meant!"

 

[DrakeClawfang]

I am! :o Cool beans!

@ Drake: I think the matter of 'correct vs. incorrect' translation depends on how close it comes to the official English translation, excluding godawful translations and typos like the first FF7 game.

Exactly, FF is a compendium of erroneous or otherwise nonsensical translations (has Garland knocked down any Spoony Bards lately? :p). If an official world-wide corporation came make some of the glaring errors they've made in their translations, I think any translation should be examined more closely.

Even an "official" translation is still one guy's opinion, isn't it? Translating isn't an exact science. It's a series of judgment calls. Do you think any of the main creative team at SE understands English well enough to look over official translations and say, "yeah, that's what we meant!"

Agreed again.

 

[Tennyo]

And that is a very valid look on the whole situation, drake. I thank you for actually approaching the topic in a mature manner and actually siting a reference for why you feel the way that you do. It's very much appreciated.

However when you talk about the AC subtitles, do you mean watching them alongside the English dub? If that's the case then yes, they will be different. I think it's the same with Anime as well. The team in charge of the English dubs often times have to switch words up in order to make them fit so you don't have someone talking when their mouth isn't moving or not talking when their mouth is. Most of the time the gist is the same, though, and that is what really matters.

As far as hitos translation goes, what is being debated is lover vs. beloved, and I just don't see how those two words don't have the same meaning within this context. In fact beloved seems to explain it better when you really take the original game into account. Lover would make it sound like Aerith and Cloud were getting it on, which they clearly weren't. Even if that's not what it meant in Japanese I guess we native English speakers just have dirty minds. XD

 

[A]

And that is a very valid look on the whole situation. I thank you for actually approaching the topic in a mature manner and actually siting a reference for why you feel the way that you do. It's very much appreciated.

QFT.

 

[Isabella]

The thing that irks us, Drake, is the immediate cry of bias, the accusation that hitoshira is deliberately spinning translations in order to mislead people. If you aren't one of the people saying this (such as our new buddy on the front page), then our snark isn't directed at you.

 

[Rinoa]

When you cross reference several possibilities of a passage, you'll realize that to get a "true feeling" of what was originally said in Japanese you'd have to be a Japanese speaker to begin with.

One kanji can have several english meanings and varying uses. To properly localize, the translator looks at what exactly is being implied and assumed to be understood as a whole. Of course, this depends on the context of the situation.

In this case, the context of the situation says that the woman (Aerith) thinks of Cloud as 'her' love because he is a symbol of Zack.

@quote
Speaking of strongest feelings/greatest desire, I'm assuming that's "omoi"? Cloud's was revealed to us in FF7... and it has Tifa written all over it.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

However when you talk about the AC subtitles, do you mean watching them alongside the English dub? If that's the case then yes, they will be different.

That's exactly what I mean. I watched my AC DVD with the subtitles turned on one time. It was surprising how much they varied, the one scene I remember in particular is the Rufus and Kadaj scene during Bahamut's attack, entire portions of that conversation were totally different between dub and sub.

When you cross reference several possibilities of a passage, you'll realize that to get a "true feeling" of what was originally said in Japanese you'd have to be a Japanese speaker to begin with.

True, but sadly I'm not a Japanese speaker. Foreign languages and I have never gotten along very well. I know a small handful of single words like "nani" and "kami", that's the extent of my knowledge of the Japanese language. So I'm stuck with translations. ><

 

[Tennyo]

The thing that irks us, Drake, is the immediate cry of bias, the accusation that hitoshira is deliberately spinning translations in order to mislead people. If you aren't one of the people saying this (such as our new buddy on the front page), then our snark isn't directed at you.

This. It's the fact that everything we do is somehow a conspiracy, when really none of us even care enough about the LTD to bother going that far. We are concerned with the truth only, whatever that may be. Even if it means we have to admit we were wrong and adjust out views.

Yet somehow we are the Cigarrette Man/Syndicate while peeps on CxA are Mulder and Scully (and Doget and Rayes and the LG and all the other peeps on their side). It's very irksome. And yes a lot of times we do get snarky and maybe that's not the most mature thing to do but you have to understand our frustration.

That's exactly what I mean. I watched my AC DVD with the subtitles turned on one time. It was surprising how much they varied, the one scene I remember in particular is the Rufus and Kadaj scene during Bahamut's attack, entire portions of that conversation were totally different between dub and sub.

And there is a reason for that, as I explained in that very same post.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

This. It's the fact that everything we do is somehow a conspiracy, when really none of us even care enough about the LTD to bother going that far. We are concerned with the truth only, whatever that may be. Even if it means we have to admit we were wrong and adjust out views.

Yet somehow we are the Cigarrette Man/Syndicate while peeps on CxA are Mulder and Scully (and Doget and Rayes and the LG and all the other peeps on their side). It's very irksome. And yes a lot of times we do get snarky and maybe that's not the most mature thing to do but you have to understand our frustration.

True, I can totally understand that (except for the ref, never watched X-Files). It's a vicious cycle I suppose, we question your bias because you get snarky, you get snarky because we question your bias. Or something like that.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

True, I can totally understand that (except for the ref, never watched X-Files). It's a vicious cycle I suppose, we question your bias because you get snarky, you get snarky because we question your bias. Or something like that.

X-Files reference: Some CloAer fans feel we are the bad guys/conspirators(Cigarette Man/Syndicate) and that they are the ones exposing our lies (Mulder and Scully) /X-filesnerd

 

[A]

Well, either way I'm glad that you understand and you're not taking the translations as in result of being biased. We're not generalizing. And it is a vicious cycle. D :

And I have no idea what you guys are talking about. Veronica/Archie/Betty please.

 

[Tennyo]

True, I can totally understand that (except for the ref, never watched X-Files). It's a vicious cycle I suppose, we question your bias because you get snarky, you get snarky because we question your bias. Or something like that.

lol It is a very vicious cycle isn't it? But I wonder whether or not our snark makes a difference. If we suddenly dropped that would people be more wiling to discuss these things with us instead of making such false accusations?

Also X-Files is win. You must watch it. Except the last two seasons kind of went down the poop shoot but I blame that on Fox since Chris Carter (series creator/writer) had wanted to end the show with season seven instead of dragging it on two more years.

X-Files reference: Some CloAer fans feel we are the bad guys/conspirators(Cigarette Man/Syndicate) and that they are the ones exposing our lies (Mulder and Scully) /X-filesnerd

I love you. <3

 

[Ryushikaze]

Y'know drake, you note the difference in those two dissidia translations, but from what I see, they are both getting at the same notions, just using slightly different wording.

That's the trick with translation- meaning. You have to suss the basic meaning of the sentence, take that 'meaning' and attempt to render that meaning into english. With English having as many synonyms as it does, it makes the number of acceptable words for translation huge, with context limiting them.

In this case, with the sentence purely being about Aerith's view of Cloud, beloved is a perfectly valid use of Koibito.

Of course, since I know you called the folks over at the CxA forums as well as the folks around here on the hypocrisy of Koibito, beloved is also perfectly in line with Tifa's role as well. She is one who is Romantically loved.
Koibito, despite what some people may have claimed, has never been a single silver bullet.
It is simply a single round in the clip of the automatic machinegun of facts.

 

[Makoeyes987]

You know Drake, I'll give you credit for actually having the balls to post your thoughts here for us to reply to instead of just having it hidden behind a private forum where only one viewpoint is expressed.

I can understand your point about how two different translators can translate a piece of text and the context and meaning be different. But the fact of the matter is, is that translating is, as Isabella said ,not an exact science. A lot of people seem to think so but language is not mathematics. Two completely different languages is not
something exact like 'A = B'.

That being said, when it comes down to sensitive things like that, it takes not only a translator who has a mastery and understanding of the grammar, but also of the context and rendering said context into english. A translation that not only keeps the context but also the meaning of the text is ideal. And it's definitely your right to want to cross reference a translation to ensure its veracity. However, what really has irritated most of us here is not the criticism. Criticism is a good thing that allows a translator to better their skill and translate even more accurately. It's the baseless criticism spawned from someone who just doesn't like the translation because it doesn't suit their agenda that's really irritating.

Someone who criticizes and offers no reason for their criticism while also clearly having no real understanding of the language, AND THEN erroneously tries to descry a translation as "biased", "wrong" or "inaccurate" is just frankly insulting. If you have a criticism, critique, or correction based in fact then by all means share it. But the keyword is "fact." Not just because you don't like it, or are out to support some shipping or something.

We have no problem with the forum using our translations. They can copy and paste them as much as they want. And hell, we couldn't stop them even if we wanted to. But it just is very weird for them to rely on them and use them on one hand, but then call them inaccurate, biased, and unreliable on another. It's like...make up your mind. If you don't like ours, do your own accurate ones then.

But its their right. We aren't gonna stop them

 

[Restless]

The thing about translations is that a direct one often gets blurry, boring, or doesn't flow well with the rest of the work. Every time you by a translated work, be it manga or a book, it has been edited. English isn't Japanese, and while it's great to see puns and such stay intact, basic sentences can be changed for better understanding. For example, the original might say "it happened the a day before yesterday," while an English translation says "it happened two days ago." The latter flows better and the point stays. For a specific example, I'll use Gantz. In the Dark Horse translation, it says (in reference to a dog) "Look at him sulk! Ha ha ha!" A fan-translation says "Hahaha, he's all bummed out!" One may be more correct than the other, but both accurately gets the point across: people are laughing at the dog.

A bad translation is when things get lost during translation/editing. Changing "He ran away because of me..." to "He ran away because he's a coward!" changes direction in storytelling, as well as changing a character's personality.

Using beloved, so it flows better and is more common in English usage, is perfectly fine. It doesn't change the meaning of the sentence, it gets the point across, and there isn't any confusion between how much depth is in the relationship. As already pointed out, "lover," "girlfriend," and "sweetheart" are generally used to give a specifically label how romantic the relationship is. People need to realize that these changes happen all the time, and most times it gets across the same intention.

 

[Tennyo]

As already pointed out, "lover," "girlfriend," and "sweetheart" are generally used to give a specifically label how romantic the relationship is. People need to realize that these changes happen all the time, and most times it gets across the same intention.

Also, saying that someone is your beloved is just as powerful as using lover, girlfriend/boyfriend, and sweetheart, if not more so.

I mean heck, having someone as your girlfriend/boyfriend doesn't even mean they are the one you love most. It happens. Hell I once had a boyfriend who was a nice guy but I really wanted someone else a lot more, but the circumstances didn't really make a relationship between us seem all that plausible and like it would work out.

 

[Ryushikaze]

We have no problem with the forum using our translations. They can copy and paste them as much as they want. And hell, we couldn't stop them even if we wanted to.

Actually, we could, if we put it into a Terms of Use specifying that doing such with our translations is against ToS. We might even force shutdown if they try and reprint our translations.

That's probably harsher than we wish to get, however.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Eh, there's no need to do that. We don't need to be oppressive or anything like that.

 

[Tennyo]

Yeah we're not Nazi's who wish to persecute the Clerith demographic.

 

[null.]

The thing that irks us, Drake, is the immediate cry of bias, the accusation that hitoshira is deliberately spinning translations in order to mislead people. If you aren't one of the people saying this (such as our new buddy on the front page), then our snark isn't directed at you.

This entire ordeal is asinine and disrespectful. Hitoshura doesn't take sides. He's corrected us - read, non-Clerii - several times in the past when a translation we used wasn't accurate. Ex. Maiden's line "Aerith... entrusted all the feelings in her heart for Cloud to Tifa." That's a pretty clear passing of the torch... Aerith is letting go. Can't argue with that, right? Remember, we used that quote a LOT until hito shot it down. If ACF were still around (i.e. searchable), people would see he did that more than once.

Where I work, linguists get paid well over six figures. We're getting a quality product for the price of a page hit, some appreciative comments and a an interesting discussion. What hito does is the equivalent of what open-source software developers do - we all benefit immensely from their scholarship, dedication and unpaid man-hours. That some people can't learn to appreciate this is deplorable.