Tennyo
Higher Further Faster
Isn't this basically what the Ultimanias themselves say? LO was an alternate interpretation of an event but it's not canon. I can't be.
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Isn't this basically what the Ultimanias themselves say? LO was an alternate interpretation of an event but it's not canon. I can't be.
Celes Chere
Banned
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- Noctis
The RF said LO was legitimate though, didn't it? O_o
Celes Chere
Banned
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- Noctis
Celes Chere
Banned
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- Noctis
I think I've only used LO when others said it wasn't official. But it is.
I Am Not Me
The Mean Clack
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- Mei, Koibito, Stalker, Little Dude, Nami
I always thought LO was only half-canon 
I mean, it contradicts some details on how things happened in the reactor. Like how Zack doesn't land on...that other thing. Er...
Okay, I don't really remember now, but yeah. It's always been half-canon to me. Though the Cloud/Tifa thing? Ho no... canonz~
But the Zack/Cloud thing is even more canonz~
I mean, it contradicts some details on how things happened in the reactor. Like how Zack doesn't land on...that other thing. Er...Okay, I don't really remember now, but yeah. It's always been half-canon to me. Though the Cloud/Tifa thing? Ho no... canonz~
But the Zack/Cloud thing is even more canonz~
Fairheartstrife
[no fucks given]
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- FHS, that cloti bitch
On the role of Denzel. In relation to couples, he is clearly meant to impact the Cloud x Tifa relationship. In CoT she even says that they began to feel like a real family after Denzel came. Barret refers to Tifa as Denzel's "mother" and even if the title isn't official, it's clear that Denzel is being raised by Cloud and Tifa. His role, as I see it, is to cement the "family" because as much as Marlene is loved and included in their lives, she is still Barret's daughter.
Goodbye Charlie
Rising Chest-Bank Protestor
Being the proud bearer of the chalice called smug, I always saw it as canon.
I think people tend to mistake canon as a term that automatically implies indisputable accuracy. It doesn't. As an art, any form of narrative venture is never rigid, it's all about the illusion of being defined and solid. It's all merely interpretations of events loosely strung together by slight of hand to convince the audience there is a continuity of cause and effect. It's sculpting clay, ready to be shifted, bend and crafted to make... interesting stories, not a perfect history. Sometimes to put emphasis on certain story/character/dramatic elements that don't necessarily give us solid history but interesting or dynamic scenes.
In the end, with any drama, the key is in the moment, not binding the past or even the future. It's about keeping people watching at that time. Last Order was made with this in mind - to create a story from a story that was geared towards the events in Advent Children more than, erm, the story it was expanded from. Is it right? It's an interpretation. As is very much the nature of FF7 (unless you think Cloud went through a period of being a squat, no handed cluster of animated polygons for 6 months of his life).
What made Maiden so un-canon wasn't it's dubious content, nor the fact it no longer carries obvious continuity with the later elements of the Compilation, it is because of how its regarded by those who are responsible and in control of the Compilation; its intent and posterity was not to help sculpt the shape of the Compilation in any serious form. It was not written by the writers of the Compilation. All these elements affect its worth as canon, not the specifics of the tale.
Canon doesn't have to carry rigid continuity - it simply has to be official. As LO was, and to my understanding - particularly from the linked article - still is.
I think people tend to mistake canon as a term that automatically implies indisputable accuracy. It doesn't. As an art, any form of narrative venture is never rigid, it's all about the illusion of being defined and solid. It's all merely interpretations of events loosely strung together by slight of hand to convince the audience there is a continuity of cause and effect. It's sculpting clay, ready to be shifted, bend and crafted to make... interesting stories, not a perfect history. Sometimes to put emphasis on certain story/character/dramatic elements that don't necessarily give us solid history but interesting or dynamic scenes.
In the end, with any drama, the key is in the moment, not binding the past or even the future. It's about keeping people watching at that time. Last Order was made with this in mind - to create a story from a story that was geared towards the events in Advent Children more than, erm, the story it was expanded from. Is it right? It's an interpretation. As is very much the nature of FF7 (unless you think Cloud went through a period of being a squat, no handed cluster of animated polygons for 6 months of his life).
What made Maiden so un-canon wasn't it's dubious content, nor the fact it no longer carries obvious continuity with the later elements of the Compilation, it is because of how its regarded by those who are responsible and in control of the Compilation; its intent and posterity was not to help sculpt the shape of the Compilation in any serious form. It was not written by the writers of the Compilation. All these elements affect its worth as canon, not the specifics of the tale.
Canon doesn't have to carry rigid continuity - it simply has to be official. As LO was, and to my understanding - particularly from the linked article - still is.
DrakeClawfang
The Wanderer of Time
My reason for hating Denzel is that he strengthens relationships that don't need him. He gives more credit to the idea of a family between Cloud and Tifa and implies Clerith a bit since Aerith apparently brought him to Cloud.
The problem is his character isn't sufficiently explored in either film or novella for the audience to really like him. If you haven't read the novellas you'll go into AC with no idea who the hell he is. And even then, he isn't really important in the film, like the Moogle Girl he just gives a face to the kids.
Marlene, on the other hand, is someone players will know and identify with from the original game, and every role Denzel played as a character, Marlene could have done and done it better. Had she been the one who had Geostigma and the movie progressed with her in Denzel's place, I fell it would have gone much better.
The problem is his character isn't sufficiently explored in either film or novella for the audience to really like him. If you haven't read the novellas you'll go into AC with no idea who the hell he is. And even then, he isn't really important in the film, like the Moogle Girl he just gives a face to the kids.
Marlene, on the other hand, is someone players will know and identify with from the original game, and every role Denzel played as a character, Marlene could have done and done it better. Had she been the one who had Geostigma and the movie progressed with her in Denzel's place, I fell it would have gone much better.
Fighter
Pro Adventurer
Why does that imply clerith?
Goodbye Charlie
Rising Chest-Bank Protestor
I think that's a little of a reach. Aerith doesn't bring Denzel to Cloud singularly, but to Cloud and Tifa. I mean, I give someone I have strong feelings for a wedding present doesn't infer something between me and that person. The whole point of AC is to get Cloud to move on. That's Aerith's single goal, to stop Cloud destroying himself - her reasons are utterly altruistic - which is why people suggest a maternal symbolism; she's not trying to bring Cloud to her (she could just let him die by that logic, a sure fire more likely way to see him again), but trying to push him forward.
All Aerith does in AC is to support Cloud and his family. There is nothing singular to Cloud beyond the encouragement. The only Clerith Denzel demonstrates is the devotion Aeris has to Cloud.... and Tifa.
I think Denzel is a vital component. To have Cloud with Tifa doesn't really infer a step forward. To have him have roots, greater responsibility and a family is a progression we can all understand - seeing him fail to achieve that status is what creates the dilemma. You need Denzel there to really underpin the responsibility that Cloud is failing to live up to.
It's a very fair point that beyond the novellas he doesn't get much exploration (or even identification) in the movie. Yes, I agree.
That said, he does provide the root dilemma for the Strife unit in relation to the plot (he is suffering from the same ailment as Cloud) and gives Marlene a character to bounce off.
But surely Marlene's role is actually BETTER in the film for not being the ill one? She becomes an active proponent alongside Aeris and Tifa in trying to pull Cloud from his stupor. Denzel isn't so important to the audience, so he can play the silent ill one without the audience feeling cheated. Marlene's role is greatly enhanced and built upon by not having her play the victim (as she would have in a Western film).
Ⓐaron
Factiō Rēpūblicāna dēlenda est.
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- The Man, V
btw,
This still needs to be done ftlulz. Someone who's better with descriptions than I am can do itLOL, THAT NEEDS TO BE A REAL CLUB.Of course we worship him. We worship him like they worship their Clerith Cetra tyrant. And we totally dedicated a club to him too, titling it as...Well, they just said that all Cloti on TLS worship him...
RYU. THE BOOB LOVING CLOTI.
Strangelove
AI Researcher
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- hitoshura
Aerith bringing Denzel to Cloud or Tifa is what the characters thought, but not necessarily what actually happened. How (and why) would Aerith, who was apparently unable to communicate with Cloud, manipulate a child she doesn't know to go to Cloud?
Goodbye Charlie
Rising Chest-Bank Protestor
I think the line is more to demonstrate the relationship between Tifa, Cloud and Aeris than to give us a literal truth. That being said, given how Aeris' relevance in the film is quite omnipresent, I don't think it goes against that tone - that in some way, Aeris influenced events to bring Denzel to Cloud.
But yes, I think it's a line that shows the audience how Tifa and Cloud see Aeris and of course, sets up the relationship with Aeris and the pair in the film for the audience. I don't think its one the novella expected audiences to take as definitive fact even if tonally it doesn't seem far fetched from the helping hand we see of Aeris throughout the film.
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
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- Tim, Ryu
Because she's MAGIC. And (Alex explanation of awesome spirit powers being blocked by negative emotions here).
Seriously, Denzel being actually sent by Aerith or not is actually sorta irrelevant, as is Cloud and Tifa thinking she brought him to them, outside of how they view Aerith. The only reason it's there is so that it can be 'Not to either of us, but to both of us' with the smile in return. Denzel's role is to be a child that Cloud and Tifa can do right by, to make up for the sins of their pasts and the lives lost directly or indirectly as a result of their deeds as AVALANCHE, and to cement them further as a cohesive family unit, by being a child who is exclusively theirs to look after, which cannot be said of Marlene, who they are looking after for Barret. He also acts as something of a MacGuffin to the plot, being the reason Cloud went walkabout initially- so he could find a cure for Denzel.
But yes, Denzel is there to be Cloud and Tifa's kid, and they certainly crammed a lot of similarities between C and T and his real parents into CoD and ACC, right down to holding his hands alike.
They showed us a photo of his old family just before he calls Tifa and Cloud finds him, to show us he's getting a proper new family.
In short, Denzel exists to hammer in the concept of the Strife family unit, that Cloud has responsibilities, people he loves and who love him, and who he needs to be there for.
On the subject of canon, recall that there is a distinction between canon and within continuity, and multiple different types of 'canon heirarchy' as well, such as the SW structure. It's entirely possible to negate all but one part of a story and keep it in while sacking the rest, as seems to be done with LO and the C/T convo therein.
Seriously, Denzel being actually sent by Aerith or not is actually sorta irrelevant, as is Cloud and Tifa thinking she brought him to them, outside of how they view Aerith. The only reason it's there is so that it can be 'Not to either of us, but to both of us' with the smile in return. Denzel's role is to be a child that Cloud and Tifa can do right by, to make up for the sins of their pasts and the lives lost directly or indirectly as a result of their deeds as AVALANCHE, and to cement them further as a cohesive family unit, by being a child who is exclusively theirs to look after, which cannot be said of Marlene, who they are looking after for Barret. He also acts as something of a MacGuffin to the plot, being the reason Cloud went walkabout initially- so he could find a cure for Denzel.
But yes, Denzel is there to be Cloud and Tifa's kid, and they certainly crammed a lot of similarities between C and T and his real parents into CoD and ACC, right down to holding his hands alike.
They showed us a photo of his old family just before he calls Tifa and Cloud finds him, to show us he's getting a proper new family.
In short, Denzel exists to hammer in the concept of the Strife family unit, that Cloud has responsibilities, people he loves and who love him, and who he needs to be there for.
On the subject of canon, recall that there is a distinction between canon and within continuity, and multiple different types of 'canon heirarchy' as well, such as the SW structure. It's entirely possible to negate all but one part of a story and keep it in while sacking the rest, as seems to be done with LO and the C/T convo therein.
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Tennyo
Higher Further Faster
@ LO discussion on previous pages: The thing about LO is that I find it confusing. Its cool, I love the animation, and it is SE approved, yet we're supposed to take it as an "alternate version" of events, which I always took to mean that everything else in the Compilation take precedence over it. There are a few key events that are different in LO which go against the story of FFVII itself. But the whole thing was done by Madhouse so I just assumed that it was an outside interpretation?
I dunno, like I said it's confusing. But I guess the fact that SE acknowledges it to still be official still gives it some weight.
Not all of them. Tifa didn't wake up, which is the KEY reason why I never know what to say about LO. Tifa waking up and seeing that Cloud was there is a HUGE difference, considering the fact that Tifa was the only character with the power to keep the events of the first trip to the Northern Crater in the original game from happening if she just had the right info. If she could have definitively said, "Yes Cloud you were there, so Sephiroth can stfu," the story would have probably turned out a lot different.
And some people have said, "Well Tifa was severely injured so maybe she just doesn't remember." That may be the case but it's not a very strong case. Not strong enough to stand up in a debate, in my opinion.
I dunno, like I said it's confusing. But I guess the fact that SE acknowledges it to still be official still gives it some weight.
Not all of them. Tifa didn't wake up, which is the KEY reason why I never know what to say about LO. Tifa waking up and seeing that Cloud was there is a HUGE difference, considering the fact that Tifa was the only character with the power to keep the events of the first trip to the Northern Crater in the original game from happening if she just had the right info. If she could have definitively said, "Yes Cloud you were there, so Sephiroth can stfu," the story would have probably turned out a lot different.
And some people have said, "Well Tifa was severely injured so maybe she just doesn't remember." That may be the case but it's not a very strong case. Not strong enough to stand up in a debate, in my opinion.
DrakeClawfang
The Wanderer of Time
Agreed. As a whole I wonder why Tifa didn't confront Cloud about the Nibelheim incident before the Northern Crater. If she's sat down to have a chat with him and said "Cloud, we need to talk about about some things", it may have possibly averted Sephiroth taking over Cloud's mind.
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