The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[null.]

What I've seen several Cleriths say is - exactly when, between him leaving the village and floating in his mako tube, did Tifa and Cloud fall in love?

Well, ask yourself first: what suggests to you that Cloud has feelings for Aerith?

 

[Fighter]

I'm not exactly sure if I believe the following myself, but I've seen several Cleriths make a good point: Tifa herself says she didn't know Cloud all that well as kids and was surprised when he called her out to the well. He leaves, she spends a few years wondering what happened, Nibelheim burns, Cloud floats in the tube for a few years, then goes to Midgar and is hired by Tifa to help AVALANCHE. What I've seen several Cleriths say is - exactly when, between him leaving the village and floating in his mako tube, did Tifa and Cloud fall in love?

That's neglecting a few details, no?

 

[Celes Chere]

The 10th Ultimania pretty much tells you Cloud hasn't moved on from Tifa. If you really haven't figured that out.

If that was directed at me, I'm just wondering what Cleriths think, and why.

and you said Cloud spends the rest of the time leading up to FF7 floating in Hojo's mako tubes.

No, before that I said Cloud sees her in Nibelheim, where the two seem to still be rather fond of one another. I'm talking about when Zack says he senses some tension, and then later the town burns down, etc. After that, then Cloud and Zack float around, Zack dies, Cloud's mind shatters, and there is still no hint that he ever moved on from Tifa.

Tifa herself says she didn't know Cloud all that well as kids and was surprised when he called her out to the well. He leaves, she spends a few years wondering what happened, Nibelheim burns, Cloud floats in the tube for a few years, then goes to Midgar and is hired by Tifa to help AVALANCHE. What I've seen several Cleriths say is - exactly when, between him leaving the village and floating in his mako tube, did Tifa and Cloud fall in love?

This is true, however, she also expresses her interest in him, and Cloud definitely shows Tifa in the LS scene that he was interested in her. Remember that Tifa and Cloud made a promise, and that she spent time wondering about him, searching for articles about him in the newspaper. Her care and concern for him are definitely genuine, as Cloud's subconcious thanks Tifa for caring. Tifa and Cloud were already crushing on one another 'dim love' if you will, before the events of FFVII.

 

[A]

I'm not exactly sure if I believe the following myself, but I've seen several Cleriths make a good point: Tifa herself says she didn't know Cloud all that well as kids and was surprised when he called her out to the well. He leaves, she spends a few years wondering what happened, Nibelheim burns, Cloud floats in the tube for a few years, then goes to Midgar and is hired by Tifa to help AVALANCHE. What I've seen several Cleriths say is - exactly when, between him leaving the village and floating in his mako tube, did Tifa and Cloud fall in love?

When exactly did Cloud and Aerith fall in love in those two weeks they knew each other? I'm not sure if you acknowledge that Cloud took in Zack traits because of the Jenvoa mimicking cells, that caused him to fashion an ideal version of himself - actually an ideal version he fashioned himself for Tifa, but during those two weeks is there really interaction between Cloud and Aerith of feelings of love, more than just Aerith wanting to meet the real Cloud because her Cetra abilities know that he isn't the real Cloud he's acting himself to be?

Tifa did not know Cloud well as kids, but Cloud was stated to have a dim love for her - like that, couldn't Tifa have possibly created a 'dim love,' for Cloud throughout the game and onto FFVII, where her feelings for him, probably small at the time, grew stronger? To be honest, I don't think Cloud and Tifa fell in love during the game - but seeing as they spend more time together after FFVII, and Cloud stating that he wants to spend her life with her, yes, I would think that they would want to start SOMETHING, rather than Cloud rejecting her as it is. Cloud and Tifa didn't necessarily have to fall in love throughout the game. But it's a clear and strong point given out when Cloud bluntly states to Tifa that he wants to spend more time with her. Than it's stated that Cloud and Tifa belong together. Liking each other can just be a small step for their 'love.'

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Well, ask yourself first: what suggests to you that Cloud has feelings for Aerith?

His reaction to her death - the scene at Cosmos Canyon - his reactions to her in AC - his willingness to help her upon meeting her. And even if it's ultimately pointless since it's optional, she's the default for the date scene. Granted you don't have to be a jerk to her to get Tifa instead, I'm just saying.

I also subscribe to the "spiritual connection" theory, but I'm sure you guys know all about that.

That's neglecting a few details, no?

Not really. They don't know each other that well, Cloud leaves and doesn't see her again for years, the next time he sees her she's unconscious/doesn't know it's him, cue pickling in mako for another few years.

 

[Ryushikaze]

If we're asking 'Did Cloud like Tifa', we must also ask 'Did he like Aerith', to which I again state that if you play with even standards, you determine that if the evidence is insufficient to determine that yes, Cloud likes Tifa, it is even less sufficient to determine that he likes Aerith.

Put another way, there's no need to get over Aerith if he never had anything in particular for her in the first place.

Also, Drake, Cloud leaves the following spring after the night at the water tower, and he at that point was already crushing on her, as he told her of his plans to try and impress her specifically. They had several months to get to know each other.
Even if not then, they had three months from Zack's demise to the start of FF7 to once again get intimate, and they certainly spent quite a lot of time together, being the gossip of Sector 7 at the time. Please, go into detail.

Also, what ABOUT those scenes? His reaction to her death is much like his reaction to Zack's demise. Less dramatic, really. Everyone, even random turks are willing to automatically help Aerith.

 

[A]

His reaction to her death - the scene at Cosmos Canyon - his reactions to her in AC - his willingness to help her upon meeting her. And even if it's ultimately pointless since it's optional, she's the default for the date scene. Granted you don't have to be a jerk to her to get Tifa instead, I'm just saying.

A jerk to her to get Tifa instead? I find it more 'jerkish,' that Aerith bluntly pushed away Zack in Maiden, which made her OOC, or that the idea of Cloud rejecting her in the Highwind scene sounds terribly sad and tragic. And in the date scene, it's stated by Aerith herself that she wants to meet the real Cloud, because her Cetra abilities detect that he's not the real Cloud, but she just doesn't know who the real Cloud is. Note that Aerith's death scene is a reflection off of Zack's death scene. Cloud reacts the same way. Except, there's no Sephy there, so he can't exactly say that speech of his.

EDIT: You're probably getting too many replies, lol.

 

[Celes Chere]

His reaction to her death

How is this any more romantic than say, Zack's death scene? A comrade dies, Cloud is sad.

 

[Vendel]

she's the default for the date scene. Granted you don't have to be a jerk to her to get Tifa instead, I'm just saying.

Didn't I just read somewhere that you can get Tifa above Aerith before you even meet her? And all you have to do is be nice to her to get that date scene?

So wouldn't Tifa be the default one?

 

[A]

Actually, Aerith is the default date scene. There are degrees to their convos. that affect who dates Cloud.


Naturally, Barret should have been the first choice.

 

[Isabella]

Aerith is the default because she makes the most sense narrative-wise. a) It wraps up the whole date arc introduced at the beginning, and b) it gives the player a rather blatant clue of the plot twist to come.

But I don't see why either side would use the dates as evidence. In both cases Cloud has to be dragged out of his room, so it's not evidence of his desire in either case. If it were Cloud knocking on their door, it'd be different.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

When exactly did Cloud and Aerith fall in love in those two weeks they knew each other? I'm not sure if you acknowledge that Cloud took in Zack traits because of the Jenvoa mimicking cells, that caused him to fashion an ideal version of himself - actually an ideal version he fashioned himself for Tifa, but during those two weeks is there really interaction between Cloud and Aerith of feelings of love, more than just Aerith wanting to meet the real Cloud because her Cetra abilities know that he isn't the real Cloud he's acting himself to be?

Tifa did not know Cloud well as kids, but Cloud was stated to have a dim love for her - like that, couldn't Tifa have possibly created a 'dim love,' for Cloud throughout the game and onto FFVII, where her feelings for him, probably small at the time, grew stronger? To be honest, I don't think Cloud and Tifa fell in love during the game - but seeing as they spend more time together after FFVII, and Cloud stating that he wants to spend her life with her, yes, I would think that they would want to start SOMETHING, rather than Cloud rejecting her as it is. Cloud and Tifa didn't necessarily have to fall in love throughout the game. But it's a clear and strong point given out when Cloud bluntly states to Tifa that he wants to spend more time with her. Than it's stated that Cloud and Tifa belong together. Liking each other can just be a small step for their 'love.'

I'm glad you noted that you don't think they fell in love in FF7, because that's something else that's been raised by Cleriths. If Aerith was falling in love with the "Zacloud" image, doesn't that also mean that for the first part of the game, Tifa's falling in love with "Zacloud" too?

And yes, lol it's quite tiring, I hit reply, type out my reply, submit it, and other people have replied so now I have to edit my post to reply to them.....

Didn't I just read somewhere that you can get Tifa above Aerith before you even meet her? And all you have to do is be nice to her to get that date scene?

Actually, that's true. The default "scores" for Aerith and Tifa are 50 and 30. Before meeting Aerith, provided you give the right responses of course, you can raise Tifa's value by 21.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Date_Mechanics

But I don't see why either side would use the dates as evidence. In both cases Cloud has to be dragged out of his room, so it's not evidence of his desire in either case. If it were Cloud knocking on their door, it'd be different.

Agreed, they're cute for their respective couples but ultimately I think the Date Scene was just for fun. The possibility of dating Barret I think is proof it's not meant to be taken seriously.

At this point I've forgotten who said Cloud doesn't leave right after the well scene. I looked at the timeline here, and it doesn't note when Cloud leaves. The scene happens in December, and Cloud is next mentioned in June guarding a Shinra guy.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Didn't I just read somewhere that you can get Tifa above Aerith before you even meet her? And all you have to do is be nice to her to get that date scene?

So wouldn't Tifa be the default one?

Yes. By not saying 'I'm looking forward to it' to Jessie, giving Tifa the flower, asking her for a hard drink, saying "how can you say that" when she asks if you forgot the promise, and making it through the train without being caught, capped off by saying you're not sure you can hold on.

This nets you 51 as to Aerith's 50, which can be dropped 12 nearly immediately.

Aerith has the higher starting value, but Tifa gets to play catch up quite quickly.
Of course, I imagine all the dates happen, which is why when Barret rolls around, he just gives up and goes along with it.

 

[Celes Chere]

doesn't that also mean that for the first part of the game, Tifa's falling in love with "Zacloud" too?

Here's the thing though- Tifa knows who the real Cloud is, and knew that something was wrong with him. Aerith never knew the real Cloud, and only expresses her desire to know the real him if you get the date scene. Also, if you consider Maiden canon, you will see Aerith openly admitting she doesn't know who Cloud really is.

 

[A]

I'm glad you noted that you don't think they fell in love in FF7, because that's something else that's been raised by Cleriths. If Aerith was falling in love with the "Zacloud" image, doesn't that also mean that for the first part of the game, Tifa's falling in love with "Zacloud" too?

Not necessarily, because unlike Aerith, she actually gets to unveil the real Cloud. And the real Cloud are free to spend their lives together, as Aerith is a witness to discovering the real Cloud in the Lifestream. Another thing is the fact that Aerith suspected Cloud of being Zack, while Tifa suspected of Cloud not being who he really was, especially because he was garbing on all this crap about being SOLDIER. Tifa knows who the real Cloud is. Aerith doesn't know the real Cloud, and although she suspects that he's not the real Cloud (because of her Cetra abilities), those suspicions directly go to Zack. And like Tiff said, if Maiden is canon, we know that Aerith admits herself that she doesn't know who the real Cloud is.

And yes, it's quite tiring, I hit reply, type out my reply, submit it, and other people have replied so now I have to edit my post to reply to them.....

Lol, maybe you can invite some people here? It probably gets tiring after awhile.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I'm glad you noted that you don't think they fell in love in FF7, because that's something else that's been raised by Cleriths. If Aerith was falling in love with the "Zacloud" image, doesn't that also mean that for the first part of the game, Tifa's falling in love with "Zacloud" too?

Though technically, Tifa realized something was rather different about Cloud as well, from knowing him in the past. So neither girl fell for "Zacloud" exactly, because they both knew something was wrong.

 

[null.]

Not really. They don't know each other that well, Cloud leaves and doesn't see her again for years, the next time he sees her she's unconscious/doesn't know it's him, cue pickling in mako for another few years.

Well, if Cloud doesn't know Tifa that well, he knew Aerith for what? All of a few weeks? Why is that enough time to fall in love with one, but not the other?

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Not necessarily, because unlike Aerith, she actually gets to unveil the real Cloud. And the real Cloud are free to spend their lives together, as Aerith is a witness to discovering the real Cloud in the Lifestream. Another thing is the fact that Aerith suspected Cloud of being Zack, while Tifa suspected of Cloud not being who he really was, especially because he was garbing on all this crap about being SOLDIER. Tifa knows who the real Cloud is. Aerith doesn't know the real Cloud, and although she suspects that he's not the real Cloud (because of her Cetra abilities), those suspicions directly go to Zack. And like Tiff said, if Maiden is canon, we know that Aerith admits herself that she doesn't know who the real Cloud is.


Lol, maybe you can invite some people here? It probably gets tiring after awhile.

True, Tifa is aware he's not himself. As for Aerith seeing Zack in him, yeah she probably does to an extent, but she acknowledges in the date that she realizes Cloud is different.

"First off, it bothered me how you looked exactly like. Two completely different people, but look exactly the same. The way you walk, gesture...I think I must have seen him again, in you...But you're different. Things are different..."

As for inviting others, you mean other Cleriths? I dunno, TLS forums don't have a good rep over at CxA forums, though obviously I see this isn't really the case.

Well, if Cloud doesn't know Tifa that well, he knew Aerith for what? All of a few weeks? Why is that enough time to fall in love with one, but not the other?

It isn't, if Cloud could fall in love with Aerith in couple weeks he could certainly fall for Tifa too. But again, I don't think its "why doesn't he/can't he love her", as it is "does he". If love were logical I don't think it'd be so difficult. :p

I'll be back in a few hours, I'm gonna take a break from this. You guys are wearing me out :p.

 

[A]

I think about two weeks was how long he knew Aerith while she was alive.

True, Tifa is aware he's not himself. As for Aerith seeing Zack in him, yeah she probably does to an extent, but she acknowledges in the date that she realizes Cloud is different.

That is true, but the thing is, she never actually WAS ABLE to meet the real Cloud, even though she acknowledged that he wasn't the real Cloud.

As for inviting others, you mean other Cleriths? I dunno, TLS forums don't have a good rep over at CxA forums, though obviously I see this isn't really the case.

Well, there are others outside of that forum, right? FuryBrand and AA are here.

 

[Celes Chere]

Two weeks? I thought it was at least a month. O_O

I dunno, TLS forums don't have a good rep over at CxA forums, though obviously I see this isn't really the case.

I wish more Cleriths would give this place a chance. The Clerith Club isn't 'fake' at all... not sure why that they think that.

 

[null.]

No, Angelalex242 is the true AA. Accept no substitutes.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Two weeks? I thought it was at least a month. O_O

Nope, the timeline of FFVII's main plot events is ridiculously compressed.

 

[Fighter]

Not really. They don't know each other that well, Cloud leaves and doesn't see her again for years, the next time he sees her she's unconscious/doesn't know it's him, cue pickling in mako for another few years.

I beg to differ.

You focus on Tifa's single remark yet you neglect Cloud's lamenting over her practically his whole childhood, his motivation to become strong in the first place was to get her attention. That she did like him, that he inspired her to take up martial arts and piano, that she did wait for him. That Cloud's promise was "forever engraved in his mind" (CC Ultimania) as something he must always keep. That when they meet at the start of FF7 Cloud's embarrassment at being seen as a failure by her is what creates the Zackified Cloud in the first place. And all that happens in the time you specify, not just: he leaves, doesn't see her for years, they meet again.

 

[null.]

Everything Cloud shows toward Aerith, he shows to Tifa x 1000. The only thing Aerith gets more of is grief. Not really a fair comparison.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Two to four weeks is about how long disc 1 can occur over, depending on when exactly in the last 3rd of January the game ends.

But yes, a month, maximum, verse a lifetime.

On the subject of knowing Cloud, Tifa is stated as knowing Cloud 'all too well'. No such similar quote can be found for Aerith, merely that she sees that there is a true Cloud behind the ZaCloud.

As for ZaCloud, it's not wholly Zack, but rather a shifting pastiche of chunks of Zack, chunks of his true memories, memories from Tifa, and how he'd like to be.