The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[Isabella]

Whether he apologizes is questionable, imo. But Mako and I have had this convo already.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Him apologizing for not returning home sooner is him apologizing. I mean, really. Why split hairs?

@null

Eh, well he made a bad choice. No partner is ABSOLUTELY PERFECT in a relationship. He had good intentions and was trying to help his family. That coupled with his screwed up head certainly doesn't equate to him ZOMG treating Tifa like shit. If that's the only bad thing he ends up doing in their entire relationship I think they have very little to worry about at all.

 

[Munatik]

I'd give Cloud a break. Aside from his fucked up life so far, how many long-term relationships has he been in before settling down with Tifa? Zero.

Then in two years, we see Cloud has assumed a father role without any prior practice at being a good boyfriend. Two years is a while, but given that lack of experience, he would have to be extremely lucky of WTFperfect if he knew exactly how he should handle his problems when they start to affect the people closest to him.

More realistically, I would expect him to fuck up. I would expect him to fuck up in a big way like he did in AC. But that's what happens to everyone in relationships, even if you do have experience. You just fuck up sometimes.

And that's when you ask your partner if you can top sometimes.

Joking aside, I still would not say Cloud is excused. I absolutely agree that he needed the ass-chewing from Tifa, even if it was hard for him to listen to it. A true friend stabs you in the front, or so they say. Tifa absolutely did the right thing and called Cloud on his fear of failure and, most importantly, the fact that he shut himself off. That lack of communication is what did the most damage to their relationship prior to AC, I think, and he needed the verbal bitchslap to wake him up. Granted, their struggle to communicate their feelings directly with one another is their hallmark, but both Cloud and Tifa are learning step by step.

Yet doesn't that process resonate so well with what most people go through in committed relationships? I'm sure this has all been said before, but it's good stuff.

 

[Edley]

Him apologizing for not returning home sooner is him apologizing. I mean, really. Why split hairs?

@null

Eh, well he made a bad choice. No partner is ABSOLUTELY PERFECT in a relationship. He had good intentions and was trying to help his family. That coupled with his screwed up head certainly doesn't equate to him ZOMG treating Tifa like shit. If that's the only bad thing he ends up doing in their entire relationship I think they have very little to worry about at all.

Ooh, missed a lot of good stuff.

I hate to say this, but I just saw the whole emo Cloud bit as a plot device to get them apart for a while. This gives Nomura time to showcase "the old" Cloud. If he's hero self-actualized Cloud the entire time, it's not as intresting as seeing a guy who has problems external and internal overcoming them with the help of friends. (That theme sounds familiar) I agree it was a douche move not to answer the phone, but he's got the cocky Cloud voice back by Reminesance and in his little DoC scene. So it isn't like the avoiding calls was permanent by any stretch.

Besides, Tifa says it best, "Cloud is Cloud."

I'm sure the make up sex was epic

 

[Lily Ella]

Again, I'll mention the extenuating circumstances...but yes, even so, even the most patient person in the world would feel frayed and worn. You love a man, that you know loves you but is suddenly distant, you're falling in love with a child you know is dying that HE brought to you, and you're expected to be all smiles and "You can do it!".

Hell no.

Which is why I used to sometimes call Tifa "the Melanie Wilkes of FFVII." She's not real. Too perfectly patient and saintly, that it's scary.

Anyway... Tifa can't win with everyone. She stand up and gives an a verbal kick in the ass, some will call her bitchy. She is uber patient and overly understanding, then she's a doormat. If she were to do what some want her to, which is to walk out on the guy and/or give him a taste of his own medicine, then she'd be PURE EBILZ... or something.
/random tangent & random babblage

plot device to get them apart for a while

Same. And it did give Nomura time to showcase the old Cloud -- even said so in RF, I think. He said something about Cloud being more upbeat at the end of FFVII, but that it wasn't the Cloud that most fans seemed to (or wanted to, liked to) remember. They reverted him back to being an insecure, scared little dumb-dumb.

Though... I'm not sure if they did it "for dah FANZ!" or if they did that because they didn't know what else to do, and because it was the easy thing to do (reduxing-rehashing FFVII in a way).

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

Ooh, missed a lot of good stuff.

I hate to say this, but I just saw the whole emo Cloud bit as a plot device to get them apart for a while. This gives Nomura time to showcase "the old" Cloud. If he's hero self-actualized Cloud the entire time, it's not as intresting as seeing a guy who has problems external and internal overcoming them with the help of friends. (That theme sounds familiar) I agree it was a douche move not to answer the phone, but he's got the cocky Cloud voice back by Reminesance and in his little DoC scene. So it isn't like the avoiding calls was permanent by any stretch.

Besides, Tifa says it best, "Cloud is Cloud."

I'm sure the make up sex was epic

I think the emo notion is wildly inaccurate. To be fair to Cloud (as much as I'd rather impale him with my buster sword - that sounds more dirty than it was meant) he is a broken, messed up individual. Emo to me implies someone who is all distant and self absorbed with little reason, to be fair Cloud had buckets of reason. He was a soldier who pretty much failed in every task he attempted to live up to, culminating in the lost of his entire town and his dear friend he was protecting. The man he'd built his life around turned out to be the very person who destroyed it. The man who he aspired to be (in the role he wanted to claim) died having to protect his pretty unmoving ass. The world was turned upside down, pulled apart, many people died - and he was a puppet in that disaster. No wonder he's so distant and feeling unworthy of happiness - he's hardly dished much happiness out in his life!

Cloud is a very messed up individual and I think that given those circumstances, portraying him any other way in AC just wouldn't have run true.

I think judging Cloud is akin to judging someone who looks to commit suicide. When you are that messed up, you have to factor in the fact that person is very messed up - essentially its a break down.

That's not to say how he treated the kids was right or how I'd recommend anyone to go about balancing their family with their own issues, but he's not just some mopy ass who just can't be bothered to keep in touch with his family, he's an introverted character who is suffering a breakdown. I think that's why Tifa so easily accepts it - because she knows the guy well enough to know it's not selfish, that he isn't callous and his apology is - in Cloud's way - heartfelt, even if in practise it's not exactly brimming.

I think it can be a mistake to underestimate Tifa's strength or acceptance of Cloud's actions as being weak, when in fact it's meant to be an indicator of how much she understands him.

So in practise, his actions are imperfect and assworthy - but I think if we are to look at him as a real character, his situation is something one which one can empathise.

 

[Masamune]

I e-mailed a Japanese contact for confirmation on the word 'koibito' and they informed me it only means "romantic sweetheart", so apologies for any misinterpretation my part earlier on.

 

[BWAngel]

No, and it's just normal to steal your childhood-crush's underwear too. It makes Cloud.. not being gay.

WHAT?! CLACK ISN'T CANON?!

Cloud's a dike.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Why the hell is it so quiet in here now?

C'mon let's keep the discussion going and trim the crack here. We finally got some good opposing view points now. Let's not have them have to wade through 3 pages of crack just so he can keep up

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well, I suppose we could start with Drake or any other willing C/A advocate laying out a detailed argument as to why the things they say show Cloud as having romantic interest show such a thing (IE- What about his reaction to Aerith's death, what about his reaction to her in AC makes them romantic), and moreoever, if these things are romantic, why then, are his actions, reactions, and statements to Tifa NOT romantic, especially in light of all the creator commentary?

 

[Reference]

Because it's Tifa!

I think we've mentioned before that the problem lies within the fact that there's moretime spent disproving the opposition than proving their stand. (Arguing the oppposition's point is fair, but not to the point where fact is twisted around with incomprehensible logic.)

Their lit student (or whoever idk) should tell 'em that basic lit teaches you to support, argue and defend your thesis. Pointing at "evidence" is not doing that. It's not enough to (over) analyse something to prove it's (arguably) there or it happened. They should make the connection and state exactly why these proofs prove "Cloud loves Aerith".

Anyway, I just wanted to get that out. I'm on the same boat as Ryu, I want to hear them talk about that ^.

 

[Celes Chere]

I'm kind of interested in this from the CxA side, currently:

-Why is Aerith's death romantic?
-How do they feel about Cloud calling Aerith 'Mother'?
-How they feel about Zack x Aerith.
-How are the HW/LS scenes not romantic?

 

[null.]

- It was a pretty scene and Cloud showed emotion
- Cloud was unconscious and confused
- Aerith moved on, see the date and CoL
- Cloud didn't reciprocate emotionally and in fact rejected Tifa with ... / it was past feelings

 

[Zee]

I may very well hate myself in the morning for this, but here I go.

I'm kind of interested in this from the CxA side, currently:

-Why is Aerith's death romantic?
-How do they feel about Cloud calling Aerith 'Mother'?
-How they feel about Zack x Aerith.
-How are the HW/LS scenes not romantic?

1) I don't find Aeris' death romantic. I do think his intense reaction to her death suggests his feelings for her went beyond simple friendship though. I mean:

"You and your stupid plan don't matter! Barret will never smile, laugh, or get angry..."

...Doesn't quite pack the same punch. :3

2) I don't care about anyone calling anyone else mother. Both Aeris and Tifa have motherly qualities about them. Cloud was reacting to an overwhemling, protective presence when Aeris touched him when he was having a near death experience. I don't think that's exactly an accurate depection of how he viewed Aeris, as his mommy.

3) I like Zack/Aeris, but I think people take it waaaaay too seriously. They had a sweet relationship when it lasted, but the fact is it didn't last, and eventually she started developing feelings for Cloud. At first yes it was the similarities between Zack and Cloud that intrigued her, but she makes it clear that she's come to recognize the differences between them and she prefers Cloud.

4) Lifestream scene doesn't exactly scream romance at me just because I think it's more about Cloud as a sole character rather than the two of them as a couple -- it's just that Tifa knew enough about his past to steer him in the right direction, and having a memory the both of them knew was the only way to really verify it.

The Highwind scene is romantic depending on how high your affection is for Tifa, obviously. If you treated her like crap the whole game it's almost painful to watch. But (even) with high affection I think it's more about Cloud and Tifa establishing a relationship now that Cloud is fully accepting himself, and they kind of get a clean slate after the lifestream spirit walk. I think it's more the start of a relationship between them.

 

[null.]

See? I knows u so well.

+ You won't hate yourself, you'll hate all of us.

 

[A]

-Why is Aerith's death romantic?

I don't see how Aerith's death is of anything of romantic, just heartbreaking to the thousands of Aerith fans out there. Cloud got emotional during Zack's death. Cloud got emotional during Aerith's death - of course, Cloud was not the real Cloud, and rather cold and stubborn, so maybe that can explain why people find the scene more romantic... but Cloud was pretty weak during the situation that Cloud and Zack were running from Shinra. It takes a lot for Cloud to break out of that vegetable-state.

-How do they feel about Cloud calling Aerith 'Mother'?

One can argue that he was unconscious, but there is a part in the Ultimania (I think the Ultimania) where it shows Aerith being a mother to everyone, including Cloud. They even come to show a picture of Cloud and Aerith.

-How they feel about Zack x Aerith.

It's in the past. Aerith considers Cloud her koibito, and you clearly see that she rejects Zack in the Lifestream. I do want to point out however, that Aerith's character is horribly OOC there.

-How are the HW/LS scenes not romantic?

It's in the past, again. Cloud did nothing but, "..." and he rejects Tifa because in the morning she was ashamed and embarassed by the whole crew of AVALANCHE watching the two as Cloud tore her heart apart. And the LS is only in the past.

3) I like Zack/Aeris, but I think people take it waaaaay too seriously. They had a sweet relationship when it lasted, but the fact is it didn't last, and eventually she started developing feelings for Cloud. At first yes it was the similarities between Zack and Cloud that intrigued her, but she makes it clear that she's come to recognize the differences between them and she prefers Cloud.

Not necessarily true. She knows that the real Cloud isn't how he acts toward her, but she never actually got to meet the real Cloud. She died before she ever got to discover who the real Cloud is, and it isn't until the Lifestream scene where the real Cloud is revealed by the help of Tifa. Plus, there's the whole fact that the Jenova mimicking cells made out the ideal person he wanted to be - for Tifa.

2) I don't care about anyone calling anyone else mother. Both Aeris and Tifa have motherly qualities about them. Cloud was reacting to an overwhemling, protective presence when Aeris touched him when he was having a near death experience. I don't think that's exactly an accurate depection of how he viewed Aeris, as his mommy.

True, but the only mention of Tifa being referred to as a mother is to the family (reference to Marlene and Denzel, most likely), and blooming feelings of motherly thoughts towards Cloud, but Cloud acts like a kid anyways after being stuck in a tank tube for the past four years, I wouldn't be surprised if people thought of him as a little kid. Then there's the fact that Aerith on the other hand, has been referred to the mother of the planet, including Cloud.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Cloud stating a fact over how Aerith will never live or express emotion or be around, is romantic? I'm not seeing that Barret comparison as out of place. Hell, Cloud wept and screamed over Zack's death too. Grief over the loss of a person and expressing the real fact of them never being around again lacks any romantic context. That's just the reality of loss.

I agree that the "mother" context is hardly indicative since both of them have exhibited those qualities.

But if anyone takes Zack/Aerith too seriously, it's the creators. The fact we have CC telling us she wrote him 89 letters over 4 years, wears Pink in honor of him even though she doesn't like it, wears the ribbon that she got him, and they've explicitly shown them as lovers seems to convey a very strong attachment to me. Furthermore, Zack and Aerith being described and shown side by side in the lifestream and then walking off back to the realm of the dead together only brings it to the forefront more.

I don't think the fact Aerith developed feelings for Cloud automatically nullifies or diminishes anything she felt for Zack. That's a false dilemma right there. No where does it say Aerith can't have feelings for Cloud AND Zack. Furthermore, Zack and Aerith were lovers for A LOT longer than the time Cloud and Aerith were together, especially based on what we have seen with them together. There's no indication at all that she's moved on from him save for her silence and unwillingness to discuss Zack in FFVII, which can be easily attributed to the fact that the loss is not something she wished to speak of. We know she knew he died and saddened by it.

Yes, FFVII is more about Cloud as a sole character but given the intimate nature of them cuddling and "conveying their feelings" there, and then we have the creator's commentary on what they conveyed with that scene and what they were even thinking about doing with it, clearly expresses a romantic connotation. You don't have to think they had sex, but there's certainly more than friendship going on in that moment, especially given Tifa's reaction to being watched.

 

[Zee]

See? I knows u so well.

+ You won't hate yourself, you'll hate all of us.

I'm going to pull an emo!Cloud and jump off a cliff as I slit my wrists and scream AERISTHHHHHHSSHSHSHS.

JUST YOU WAIT.

 

[Aya]

In my opinion after playing on CC and watching AC. Cloud belongs with Tifa and Aerith belongs with Zack.

 

[I Am Not Me]

I may very well hate myself in the morning for this, but here I go.

1) I don't find Aeris' death romantic. I do think his intense reaction to her death suggests his feelings for her went beyond simple friendship though. I mean:

"You and your stupid plan don't matter! Barret will never smile, laugh, or get angry..."

...Doesn't quite pack the same punch. :3

"You and your stupid plan don't matter! Tifa will never smile, laugh, or get angry..."

Hmm. Ya think?

What, you don't like Barret or something? I think it just packs the same punch as it is said for Aerith.

I understand that Cloud and Aerith had something going on...but that's it. They had something. And what happened? She died. BAW

2) I don't care about anyone calling anyone else mother. Both Aeris and Tifa have motherly qualities about them. Cloud was reacting to an overwhemling, protective presence when Aeris touched him when he was having a near death experience. I don't think that's exactly an accurate depection of how he viewed Aeris, as his mommy.

But you don't hear Tifa being called mother now do you?

I always did view Aerith as Cloud's motherly guardian angel.

3) I like Zack/Aeris, but I think people take it waaaaay too seriously. They had a sweet relationship when it lasted, but the fact is it didn't last, and eventually she started developing feelings for Cloud. At first yes it was the similarities between Zack and Cloud that intrigued her, but she makes it clear that she's come to recognize the differences between them and she prefers Cloud.

You seriously did not just say that. Zerith is being taken way too seriously because it was made to be that way. And no, she doesn't realize the differences between them and prefers Cloud--she died before that can happen. She realized Cloud is different, but there is nothing being said about her prefering Cloud. Nothing.

Zack and Aerith knew each other longer than Cloud did with her. I don't think that's something Aerith can easily let go, as shown by all the letters she sent Zack all those years she's been waiting. That's only a sweet relationship? Are you serious? They loved each other.

I don't see how Aerith could be so coldhearted as to just up and start developing feelings for Cloud after Zack just died. In my view, she knew Zack died, but she couldn't accept it. It's one of the reasons why she said what she did in FFVII about "not being too serious" regarding her and Zack. It's called denial. And the fact that Cloud acts like Zack is not helping.

Aerith was still wearing pink in her death. And the ribbon, which is totally Zerith.


And you forget that we're talking about Final Fantasy here. All the twu wuv and jazz... Square wouldn't make something so blatantly obvious just so it can dismissed. RLY

4) Lifestream scene doesn't exactly scream romance at me just because I think it's more about Cloud as a sole character rather than the two of them as a couple -- it's just that Tifa knew enough about his past to steer him in the right direction, and having a memory the both of them knew was the only way to really verify it.

The Highwind scene is romantic depending on how high your affection is for Tifa, obviously. If you treated her like crap the whole game it's almost painful to watch. But (even) with high affection I think it's more about Cloud and Tifa establishing a relationship now that Cloud is fully accepting himself, and they kind of get a clean slate after the lifestream spirit walk. I think it's more the start of a relationship between them.

Point.

And you can't really treat Tifa like crap in the game. Really. I've tried it. No such option. There's just the "ignore Tifa and don't put her in the party" and "talk to Aerith before Tifa" or "don't give her the flower".

They can't start a relationship that may very well end the next day. They were spending time with each other before their demise. It's clearly shown there. They aren't starting a relationship, they're sharing a moment because of the relationship they already have. If they're just starting a relationship, then doing it before doomsday is the most inappropriate time for it.



That is all.

And I will end this by saying:

CLACK IS CANON GTFO

 

[Celes Chere]

Guys, I was directing that to CxA fans, not what you think CxA fans think. But Zee, you're a Clerith, right? =)

3) I like Zack/Aeris, but I think people take it waaaaay too seriously. They had a sweet relationship when it lasted, but the fact is it didn't last, and eventually she started developing feelings for Cloud. At first yes it was the similarities between Zack and Cloud that intrigued her, but she makes it clear that she's come to recognize the differences between them and she prefers Cloud.

I'm going to have to ask what you think about quotes like this, then:

Repeating Zack’s look with Cloud’s.

Being an Ancient, Aerith did her utmost to save the Planet, even sacrificed life—in FF7, the impression of Aerith being such a tragic heroine is strong. Nevertheless, the most significant link to FF7 is the conversations about Cloud. The reason why she’s a flower girl when she first meets Cloud, the beginning of love with her first love, Zack, and the reason she saw Zack in Cloud—all those things we don’t know in FF7 are made clear in CC.

*Text near the img of Zack and Aerith in CC:
Aerith never talks about her bitterness but lives brightly. It is growing by degrees into inseparable relationship.

Nojima: However, Zack did not appear only for the reason as a key to the puzzle. The setting of “Aerith overlaps Cloud with her first love” and Zack as the key character are settled before I joined the team of development.

The destined encounter with Zack makes them becomes the irreplaceable existence to each other

To me, Clerith doesn't even come close to having quotes like these. As for points one and two, I'd agree that Aerith is more than a friend however, less than a lover. I think it's interesting that Aerith's very aura is that of a Mother's though- if Cloud were in love with her, wouldn't he have recognized her presence for what it is?

Lifestream scene doesn't exactly scream romance at me just because I think it's more about Cloud as a sole character rather than the two of them as a couple -- it's just that Tifa knew enough about his past to steer him in the right direction, and having a memory the both of them knew was the only way to really verify it.

Yes, it is about Cloud. Though, did you notice that a lot of who Cloud is revolves around Tifa?

 

[Zee]

Cloud stating a fact over how Aerith will never live or express emotion or be around, is romantic? I'm not seeing that Barret comparison as out of place. Hell, Cloud wept and screamed over Zack's death too. Grief over the loss of a person and expressing the real fact of them never being around again lacks any romantic context. That's just the reality of loss.

Aside from Zack, Tifa, and Aeris, there's not a whole lot of people whose death would cause Cloud to completely freak the fuck out, hence my comparison to Barret. It would hardly have the same emotional impact on Cloud -- or the player, by extension, if he had died sry2say. Those three already mentioned have the most connection to Cloud and his motivations, and are closest to his heart. Another character like Barret or Yuffie just wouldn't fit the bill.

But if anyone takes Zack/Aerith too seriously, it's the creators. The fact we have CC telling us she wrote him 89 letters over 4 years, wears Pink in honor of him even though she doesn't like it, wears the ribbon that she got him, and they've explicitly shown them as lovers seems to convey a very strong attachment to me. Furthermore, Zack and Aerith being described and shown side by side in the lifestream and then walking off back to the realm of the dead together only brings it to the forefront more.

The creators had her wearing it before and after they ever decided Zack was the one who ~inspired~ her to wear it. Not saying they weren't seriaz when it happened, but again, that changes when she meets Cloud and decides she likes him better.

They are side by side before walking back in the lifestream because they both were there to relieve Cloud of his guilt, not because they were a couple.

I don't think the fact Aerith developed feelings for Cloud automatically nullifies or diminishes anything she felt for Zack. That's a false dilemma right there.

I didn't say that. I don't think just because she loved Cloud more means Zack means zlich to her. But that was in the past.

Furthermore, Zack and Aerith were lovers for A LOT longer than the time Cloud and Aerith were together, especially based on what we have seen with them together. There's no indication at all that she's moved on from him save for her silence and unwillingness to discuss Zack in FFVII, which can be easily attributed to the fact that the loss is not something she wished to speak of. We know she knew he died and saddened by it.

Length of knowing someone doesn't mean a deeper connection - obviously, since Aeris feels more for Cloud than she did for Zack despite knowing him longer.

No, Aeris wasn't over Zack at first, but after the date scene and everything after that, she states herself and it's established several times she's over him romantically.

Re: the last blob of text; hence why I said their "relationship".

EDIT: GDI PEOPLE ONE AT A TIME. I am only one woman. ): sdhaskfhnaf *writes moar*

 

[I Am Not Me]

My own argument post has been ignored.

Why is everything in the past though? Aerith died, she's in the past. I see no future in that. She's dead. Tifa is very much alive and kicking and she's Cloud's first wuv/crush. They had a promise. A romantic promise. It can't be in the past when it sounds like they still think about that promise even until DoC.

We all know Zerith is in the past. But what is Cloti?

Clack is the past, future, and present.

Yes, it is about Cloud. Though, did you notice that a lot of who Cloud is revolves around Tifa?

TRUFAX

All that mention about the promise.

 

[Zee]

My own argument post has been ignored.

lol, I'm not ignoring you, I'm going through the posts one at a time. Be patient bb.

"You and your stupid plan don't matter! Tifa will never smile, laugh, or get angry..."

Hmm. Ya think?

What, you don't like Barret or something? I think it just packs the same punch as it is said for Aerith.

I already addressed this above, however, with Tifa in that dialogue yes it would still fit, as she's one of the people who Cloud is closest to. Barret not so much.

She died. BAW

Which is exactly what Cloud did, for like two years. sadhasldfhasf cry moar kloawd.

But you don't hear Tifa being called mother now do you?

Tifa called herself a mother and said Cloud was a big kid. Who cares. Being motherly doesn't make a woman a nun or asexual.

You seriously did not just say that. Zerith is being taken way too seriously because it was made to be that way. And no, she doesn't realize the differences between them and prefers Cloud--she died before that can happen. She realized Cloud is different, but there is nothing being said about her prefering Cloud. Nothing.

Yes I seriazly did. And it has been established, in the game itself:

"You're both different...things are different."

and in the novellas.

Zack and Aerith knew each other longer than Cloud did with her. I don't think that's something Aerith can easily let go, as shown by all the letters she sent Zack all those years she's been waiting. That's only a sweet relationship? Are you serious? They loved each other.

Nowehere am I saying Zack and Aeris didn't love each other.

I don't see how Aerith could be so coldhearted as to just up and start developing feelings for Cloud after Zack just died. In my view, she knew Zack died, but she couldn't accept it. It's one of the reasons why she said what she did in FFVII about "not being too serious" regarding her and Zack. It's called denial. And the fact that Cloud acts like Zack is not helping.

She wasn't coldhearted at all. Her hesitance with Cloud in the beginning is because of her conflicted remaining feelings for Zack. She hadn't seen him in years and got the feeling he died, and now a Solider comes into her life. Obviously she's confused. However, as the game progresses, she accepts the differences between them.

Aerith was still wearing pink in her death. And the ribbon, which is totally Zerith.

Already addressed this point~

And you forget that we're talking about Final Fantasy here. All the twu wuv and jazz... Square wouldn't make something so blatantly obvious just so it can dismissed. RLY

Where am I dismissing anything?

And you can't really treat Tifa like crap in the game. Really. I've tried it. No such option. There's just the "ignore Tifa and don't put her in the party" and "talk to Aerith before Tifa" or "don't give her the flower".

lern2gamefaq, there's a lot more options if you want Cloud to treat Tifa like shit.

They can't start a relationship that may very well end the next day. They were spending time with each other before their demise. It's clearly shown there. They aren't starting a relationship, they're sharing a moment because of the relationship they already have. If they're just starting a relationship, then doing it before doomsday is the most inappropriate time for it.

The whole point of the scene is that they are staying together and fighting because they believe in each other, and they believe they can stop the world from ending even if no one else shows up.


Also, you don't have to punctuate every point you make with this emoticon

 

[Celes Chere]

But that was in the past.

The destined encounter with Zack makes them become the irreplaceable existence to each other

inseparable relationship.

Zerith- 2

Clerith- ?