The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[I Am Not Me]

lol, I'm not ignoring you, I'm going through the posts one at a time. Be patient bb.

I know. I was just sad and surprised because I typed that for so long.

Um, don't hate me, by the way.

And bb?

 

[Strangelove]

And bb?

She's threatening to shoot you. Don't worry, though. It's not a real gun.

something about Aerith not liking pink

Where'd you get this from?

 

[DrakeClawfang]

My own argument post has been ignored.

Why is everything in the past though? Aerith died, she's in the past. I see no future in that. She's dead. Tifa is very much alive and kicking and she's Cloud's first wuv/crush.

True, that is the one big thing Cloti has over Clerith, Tifa's still alive. Aerith is dead, which is why she plays absolutely no role in Advent Children.....wait

AC shows us that even in death, Aerith continues to actively take a role in Cloud's life and the fate of the planet when she's needed. She may be dead but it's not like she's gone.

 

[Zee]

I know. I was just sad and surprised because I typed that for so long.

Um, don't hate me, by the way.

And bb?

Ahah, I don't hate you. Don't worry, I'm used to usually being one of (if not the only) Cleris in a debate. :3

Celes, I'll edit yours here next.

Guys, I was directing that to CxA fans, not what you think CxA fans think. But Zee, you're a Clerith, right? =)

To me, Clerith doesn't even come close to having quotes like these. As for points one and two, I'd agree that Aerith is more than a friend however, less than a lover.

There are just as many Cleris-y quotes if you dig around Ultimania or Dismantled, actually. Although tbh, I don't consider anything said in those books to be anything other than flowery fanservicey ways of telling us things we already knew. Of course Zack is irreplacable. I don't think Cloud is in any way for Aeris a replacement Zack.

I think it's interesting that Aerith's very aura is that of a Mother's though- if Cloud were in love with her, wouldn't he have recognized her presence for what it is?

I think you're giving Cloud a bit to much credit. He's practically dead, floating in the lifestream...I don't think anyone could find their way out of a paper bag, much less tell one aura from another.

Yes, it is about Cloud. Though, did you notice that a lot of who Cloud is revolves around Tifa?

Tifa is needed to piece together the puzzles in Cloud's head, and their hometown is when a lot of this identity crisis happened. She's the one who suggests using memories of herself to help Cloud.

Overall it suggests romance, but I don't consider it an end all be all proof to Cloud's affections.

 

[Celes Chere]

Aerith continues to actively take a role in Cloud's life and the fate of the planet when she's needed. She may be dead but it's not like she's gone.

As a Motherly figure. Unless you have proof of otherwise. =)

 

[null.]

Guys, I was directing that to CxA fans, not what you think CxA fans think.

I know, but most of us have been talking to CxA fans for years. Everything you see here has been discussed into the ground since 1997. The arguments never change.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Great, now this party can get started

Aside from Zack, Tifa, and Aeris, there's not a whole lot of people whose death would cause Cloud to completely freak the fuck out, hence my comparison to Barret. It would hardly have the same emotional impact on Cloud -- or the player, by extension, if he had died sry2say. Those three already mentioned have the most connection to Cloud and his motivations, and are closest to his heart. Another character like Barret or Yuffie just wouldn't fit the bill.

I disagree with this. Cloud values his friends and I see no indication or proof that he wouldn't be hurt or depressed over the loss of his friends. His entire angst and conflict in AC is over the loss of one of his friends. Zack. So you can't say him losing a comrade and friend like Barret, or Vincent wouldn't make him emotional. Cloud views all his comrades as his friends so you really can't say it'd be out of place or unnatural for Cloud to grieve for their loss.

The creators had her wearing it before and after they ever decided Zack was the one who ~inspired~ her to wear it. Not saying they weren't seriaz when it happened, but again, that changes when she meets Cloud and decides she likes him better.

They are side by side before walking back in the lifestream because they both were there to relieve Cloud of his guilt, not because they were a couple.

Where do you get that she says she likes Cloud better? I need some evidence of that please. I agree she liked Cloud but again, a four year relationship that has themes carried over into her current portrayal in FFVII, is hardly something that's in the past. Zack was important to her all the way up to her present and death. You can't say that its just the past and she moved on. If she did, why is she still holding onto vestiges of Zack's relationship and memories? I'll accept she liked Cloud but again, you need to offer up some evidence of this liking of Cloud surpassing Zack.

And yeah, she was side by side with Zack to alleviate his guilt but clearly there are relationship connotations since...they were lovers back when they were alive. And in Aerith's profile for ACC in Dengeki they describe Zack being by her side. No mention of it being because of Cloud.

I didn't say that. I don't think just because she loved Cloud more means Zack means zlich to her. But that was in the past.

So where does it show she loves Cloud more?

Length of knowing someone doesn't mean a deeper connection - obviously, since Aeris feels more for Cloud than she did for Zack despite knowing him longer.

No, Aeris wasn't over Zack at first, but after the date scene and everything after that, she states herself and it's established several times she's over him romantically.

That's true, but it certainly helps. Knowing and dating someone seriously for four years vs. meeting someone and being by their side on an adventure for 2 weeks at the most, and said person is under mind control and not their true self...is not on the same level. And you say "obviously" but I need you to put up some evidence of this obviousness, cause I'm not seeing it. Please, it isn't sarcasm. I'd like to see what you mean.

True, that is the one big thing Cloti has over Clerith, Tifa's still alive. Aerith is dead, which is why she plays absolutely no role in Advent Children.....wait

Aerith is definitely dead, but do you really believe she's going to constantly keep popping up as a spirit to Cloud forever? The creator's have explained why she has appeared to him in AC. She did it to alleviate his sense of guilt and pain. Now that he's over his pain, moving on with his life, and starting a family, how can she keep interacting with him now?

AC shows us that even in death, Aerith continues to actively take a role in Cloud's life and the fate of the planet when she's needed. She may be dead but it's not like she's gone.

That was for a purpose though. To help Cloud overcome his sadness and alert him to the threat Sephiroth posed to the planet. Do you think that's going to continue now? You think she has no intention of returning to the planet?

And I'm gonna have to make a new rule here. If you see a poster already post your exact same argument or claim, please refrain from posting. It definitely gets hard to keep up if every person repeats the same thing the other poster said before.

And now that we got a good dialogue and debate going. Leave the crack for the clubs. Let's keep this intelligent and to the point now.

 

[Ryushikaze]

As for Aerith appearing in AC, ACC also shows us

Spoiler

that Zack does that too.

And if people are making too big of a deal about Z/A, then you are making mountain ranges of a molehill with C/A.

Forget analogizing Aerith's death to a hypothetical Barret death- not that the lines would be too out of place, IMO- but let's compare it to Zack's demise. As Sakurai said, he put his entire soul into rendering that scream, because that's how much it effects Cloud. The words on Aerith's demise would fit perfectly well WRT Zack's demise too, if Cloud had been cogent at that time.

And yes, the lifestream is about Cloud. But Cloud is a lot about Tifa. No shots or even glimpses of Aerith. His heart calls out to Tifa at this time. He opens his heart up to her- and only ever to her- at this time.
The highwind sequence has two versions yes, but they're both about the same points, and the 'high' version is the only listed (and repeatedly so) during discussions of the story, and the line 'words aren't the only way' is called risque. That line can only be risque if we are supposed to assume risque action follows. To say nothing of the explicitness of the original draft, which was merely toned down for the release.

Oh, and there's still a major difference between a woman being motherly towards her SO and a man seeing a woman as Motherly.

As for 'treating like crap' the only treating of crap to either is calling Aerith the slum drunk. Unless you have some really bizarre standard for treating someone like crap.

 

[I Am Not Me]

Okay, I missed that. You posted it while I was in the toilet.

I already addressed this above, however, with Tifa in that dialogue yes it would still fit, as she's one of the people who Cloud is closest to. Barret not so much.

It's not the closeness; Barret is still a friend. It still fits with Barret IMO. Cloud may not cry for him, but he can say that with as much conviction.

Wait, are arguing over Clorret now? Clerith is more canon than Clorret!

...wait.

Which is exactly what Cloud did, for like two years. sadhasldfhasf cry moar kloawd.

Did Cloud really cry? I keep getting conflicting versions of this. He cried, or he didn't. Curse those stupid lego figures

Wait, two years? How? When? What?

Aerith bugged Zack with letterz for 4 years. I see more dedication thar

Tifa called herself a mother and said Cloud was a big kid. Who cares. Being motherly doesn't make a woman a nun or asexual.

Yeah, but Cloud didn't call her mother. And women saying their guys are like big kids is pretty wifey.

It says the same about Aerith calling Cloud a big kid, but Cloud called her the mother. LIEK TTLY

Yes I seriazly did. And it has been established, in the game itself:

"You're both different...things are different."

and in the novellas.

Yes. But she never said she preferred Zack.

Nowehere am I saying Zack and Aeris didn't love each other.

You might as well have said it though.

She wasn't coldhearted at all. Her hesitance with Cloud in the beginning is because of her conflicted remaining feelings for Zack. She hadn't seen him in years and got the feeling he died, and now a Solider comes into her life. Obviously she's confused. However, as the game progresses, she accepts the differences between them.

Where am I dismissing anything?

She still doesn't prefer Cloud. She doesn't. She accepts the differences, and starts to like Cloud for himself, but she never did know who he really is. She just realizes the difference and dies. DX

lern2gamefaq, there's a lot more options if you want Cloud to treat Tifa like shit.

NO U. You can't treat anyone in the game like shit. I've tried it. You can't. Gimme a walkthrough on how to do that, if you're so adamant about it.

The whole point of the scene is that they are staying together and fighting because they believe in each other, and they believe they can stop the world from ending even if no one else shows up.

So, umm, why didn't they make the scene with the others, if that's all there was to it?

Also, you don't have to punctuate every point you make with this emoticon

DON'T BE DISSING THE MONSTER







AND DON'T SHOOT ME! I'M CUTE!

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Holy, connect the dots...

Just a couple of questions.

Where, exactly do we see Cloud BAWing over Aerith? At all? He feels guilty, yes. About her AND Zack. Says "I want to be forgiven", not "I want to be with you." or hell, even "I miss you" soooo...where is this "romantic longing" I keep reading about from various cleriths? (And only Cleriths. Outside sources, such as movie/film reviews and game review tend to ignore Aerith as any form of love interest, calling Tifa Cloud's girl....but that's another topic).

Since I don't wanna lern2gamfaq (and refuse to since I PLAYED the damn game) I'm interested to know what the "Treat Tifa like Crap" options are. Because you can actually call Aerith the slum drunk and you beat the hell out of her (for real). And there is only one girl that the "girlfriend" label can be applied to. But again, I would just like some examples.

Also, please indicate where Aerith prefers Cloud to Zack. BEcause Maiden isn't canon and even if it WERE, and used, then I want the explanation of when Aerith thinks of all the qualities in Cloud she likes, she wakes ZACK. Wonder why....?

"The creators had her wearing it before and after they ever decided Zack was the one who ~inspired~ her to wear it." Proof of this, please? Because nowhere does Aerith say she wears pink all the time cuz she likes it. And taking FFVII as a stand alone to argue on is a bit ridiculous given compilation, so even if she was wearing it BEFORE the creators had Zack be the reason, it doesn't negate that he IS the reason. So I'm not sure what the hell the point of that statement was. Enlighten me.

And lastly, will someone please, please show me anything where Cloud says anything romantic. Not Cleriths imposing their idealisti view on a scene (like her death) but actual concrete proof here, please. Something that can even be put in the same ballpark as "I wanted to impress you." "It'll be different now because I'm with you." Or any of the other dozens of things Cloud says to Tifa.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Oh, and Zee, even IF CC is a retcon on WHY she wears pink and the pink ribbon, it is a DELIBERATE CHOICE on the part of the story tellers to make her pink and her ribbon deliberate connections to Zack. Thus, even if it technically wasn't originally a link to him, IT IS NOW, and holds as valid until contravened or disowned by the people telling the stories.

 

[Zee]

As for the Barret thing: If you guys seriously need convincing that party members like Barret, Cid, Yuffie do not exactly rank up with Tifa, Zack, and Aeris in terms of emotional investment, I have no idea what to say to you. Yes, he would be sad if any of his friends died. No, he would not have the exact same reactions.

Aeris tells Cloud on the date that she has determined the differences between Zack and Cloud. In MotP, she goes further by saying she likes Cloud more "much more" than her first love. In case of lifestream Cloud is the one she says she loves, the one she is concerned about. Pretty much all of her thoughts are of him. Not Zack.

Now that he's over his pain, moving on with his life, and starting a family, how can she keep interacting with him now?

She can't, EVARRRRRR. She's gonna become lifestream goo. This is why I really don't give two hoots about Zack/Aeris or Cloud/Aeris after AC. Neither couple has any future.

EDIT: Again, my point with the ribbon thing is...so what? Yes, it was a token of his affection for her that she kept. I don't know anyone who tosses all the shit out their ex gave them, because people wouldn't have anything in their wardrobe if that was the case.

EDIT2: Goddamn, you people are still too fast for me.

 

[null.]

Since I don't wanna lern2gamfaq (and refuse to since I PLAYED the damn game) I'm interested to know what the "Treat Tifa like Crap" options are. Because you can actually call Aerith the slum drunk and you beat the hell out of her (for real). And there is only one girl that the "girlfriend" label can be applied to. But again, I would just like some examples.

You can't treat Tifa like crap. You can pick milder/disinterested dialogue and leave her out of your party, that's about it.

Also, please indicate where Aerith prefers Cloud to Zack. BEcause Maiden isn't canon and even if it WERE, and used, then I want the explanation of when Aerith thinks of all the qualities in Cloud she likes, she wakes ZACK. Wonder why....?

CoL confirms that Aerith sees Cloud as a lover. There's no mention of Zack, so I think it's pretty clear that she's moved on.

And lastly, will someone please, please show me anything where Cloud says anything romantic. Not Cleriths imposing their idealisti view on a scene (like her death) but actual concrete proof here, please. Something that can even be put in the same ballpark as "I wanted to impress you." "It'll be different now because I'm with you." Or any of the other dozens of things Cloud says to Tifa.

You can interpret a lot of how Cloud behaves toward Aerith as romantic. As long as you acknowledge similar behavior toward Tifa means the same.

 

[A]

When does Aerith say that she has determined the differences between Zack and Cloud? What she says is that she wants to meet the real Cloud. And Cloud doesn't even know what she's talking about because he thinks that he is the real Cloud. I don't see why she would say she wants to meet the real Cloud IF she already knew. And even more, she never got to meet the real Cloud as the real Cloud only appeared until after the Lifestream scene with Tifa. And because you're a Clerith, I'm assuming you take Maiden as canon? Can you explain to me how she says, "she finally knew the real Cloud," in Maiden? Sure, she knew that Cloud was acting as himself but that doesn't MEAN she met the real Cloud.

Neither couple has any future? I thought Cloud was the one who bluntly spoke to Tifa about spending the rest of her life with her. I thought the creators had stated that Cloud and Tifa belong together, right where they belong. I doubt that Cloud and Tifa would just stay as friends for the rest of their lives. Eventually, something's gonna happen, and what SE shows us about Cloud and Tifa ending up together is just plain obvious that SE wants them to be together.

 

[Tennyo]

True, that is the one big thing Cloti has over Clerith, Tifa's still alive. Aerith is dead, which is why she plays absolutely no role in Advent Children.....wait

AC shows us that even in death, Aerith continues to actively take a role in Cloud's life and the fate of the planet when she's needed. She may be dead but it's not like she's gone.

Yes but Aerith decided to drag Zack back with her for some reason. Also I think we are supposed to infer from the ending that her and Zack are finally going to the Lifestream for good. Cloud is over his guilt about their deaths, and Sephiroth has once again been defeated. Geostigma was healed, which as CoLW shows was one of Aerith's main objectives. She's not needed anymore, neither is Zack. They can go dissolve in the Lifestream now, if they wish.

Or maybe they go put flaming bags of poo on Sephiroth's porch and he'll chase them both away for it.

 

[Celes Chere]

There are just as many Cleris-y quotes if you dig around Ultimania or Dismantled, actually. Although tbh, I don't consider anything said in those books to be anything other than flowery fanservicey ways of telling us things we already knew. Of course Zack is irreplacable. I don't think Cloud is in any way for Aeris a replacement Zack.

Coolness. Can I see them, because I am not aware of any Clerisy quotes. If Zack is irreplacable, than how can Aerith and Cloud be lovers?

I think you're giving Cloud a bit to much credit. He's practically dead, floating in the lifestream...I don't think anyone could find their way out of a paper bag, much less tell one aura from another.

Aerith jokes about Cloud being a kid here, along with Zack. To me, it seems like they're trying to show that Aerith is a Motherly figure. Not to mention, that Aerith was referred to as a Mother to the planet and to Cloud, before this scene even happens.

Tifa is needed to piece together the puzzles in Cloud's head, and their hometown is when a lot of this identity crisis happened. She's the one who suggests using memories of herself to help Cloud.

Overall it suggests romance, but I don't consider it an end all be all proof to Cloud's affections.

Yes, I am well aware of that. It's what happens inside of Cloud's head- Cloud joined Soldier to impress Tifa. Cloud had the crush on Tifa. Cloud made the promise to Tifa, and became obsessed with protecting people because of it. Finally, Cloud describes his feelings as "a tender secret that no-one can know". At the very end of the LS scene, Cloud even says:
"Tifa, let's go home."

Edit: Cloud also says he wants Tifa to meet the real him again, and expresses how happy he is when she finally does. He never does this for Aerith.

I don't think it's an end to all proof, there are more quotes and instances that are suited for that.

my point with the ribbon thing is...so what? Yes, it was a token of his affection for her that she kept. I don't know anyone who tosses all the shit out their ex gave them, because people wouldn't have anything in their wardrobe if that was the case.

Why would she continue to wear pink, to keep her promise to Zack, then?

 

[Ryushikaze]

If Barret is a bad analogy to Aerith's death, analogize her death to Zack's instead, Z. And I'm still not seeing his reaction to her death as ZOMFG overdramatic. I'd liken it to Luneth's reaction to Aria's demise, or Bartz's to Galuf's, or any of several other deaths throughout the series.

No, she tells Cloud on the date that she has realized that they are different and wants to get to know the real him, that she has NOT yet learned what makes him him.
In maiden, though she says she loves him much more than her first love, in trying to remember what makes him unique, a majority of her thoughts AWAKEN ZACK. A majority of her memories of Cloud's 'uniqueness' were Zack aspects.
And Cloud is the one in trouble in CoL, not Zack.

 

[null.]

Why are we still talking about Maiden?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Some people still insist it is part of the story, and I, at least, feel like humoring them.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

CoL confirms that Aerith sees Cloud as a lover. There's no mention of Zack, so I think it's pretty clear that she's moved on.

You can interpret a lot of how Cloud behaves toward Aerith as romantic. As long as you acknowledge similar behavior toward Tifa means the same.

There's no mention of Zack because he's with her. In the Lifestream. And CoL (which takes place before and into the beginning of AC) isn't about Areith's views on Cloud, it's about how Sephiroth created Geostigma, and Aerith is worried for her friend, a man she loves. Yes. Not a man she loves MORE. And the end of AC shows her WITH Zack.

No, I really can't interpret a lot of how he behaves as romantic. That's not sarcasm, that's genuine befuddlement because I don't see it. I see Aerith liking Cloud, yes. But I don't see the reciprocation in any depth. Again, I ask, an example please.

 

[A]

AC shows us that even in death, Aerith continues to actively take a role in Cloud's life and the fate of the planet when she's needed. She may be dead but it's not like she's gone.

So what? Everyone plays a role into helping Cloud. And the role she takes for Cloud? Forgiving him because he feels guilt for her death. Unless that's anything but romantic, I'm not sure what other role Aerith plays for Cloud. On the other hand, Tifa and Cloud have a more intricate relationship. They not only act like a couple, but they have their bumps, and they can't be perfect. And you're forgetting about Zack. He's dead and he plays a role to Cloud, is that anything of romantic?

Threesome ftw?

Actually, that would be pretty nice.

Maybe foursome. That way it would solve this damn LTD.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well, I'll just say that I'd still like to see the obvious evidence that Aerith liked Cloud more. If someone would be kind as to post these facts of her choice then I'd be great. That's what I need to continue.

Everyone else has pretty much summed up my feelings, so all I'll do is just ask for the proof and depictions of Aerith showing/saying she loves Cloud more than Zack. Case of Lifestream doesn't mention Zack because its not about Zack. The common theme that connects Lifestream black and white is that both characters are thinking of Cloud. Aerith thinking of Cloud as a lover doesn't mean she doesn't feel the same about Zack.

 

[Zee]

Coolness. Can I see them, because I am not aware of any Clerisy quotes. If Zack is irreplacable, than how can Aerith and Cloud be lovers?

Simply because Zack isn't replaceable doesn't mean Aeris can't find qualities in Cloud she likes more. It's simply different.

Aerith jokes about Cloud being a kid here, along with Zack. To me, it seems like they're trying to show that Aerith is a Motherly figure. Not to mention, that Aerith was referred to as a Mother to the planet and to Cloud, before this scene even happens.

Again, I have to point out both Aeris and Tifa are called motherly and it doesn't really matter. Being mom-ish doesn't take either one out of the running for being a love interest.

Edit: Cloud also says he wants Tifa to meet the real him again, and expresses how happy he is when she finally does. He never does this for Aerith.

No, he doesn't have an exact similar scenario, but he does express happiness with Aeris (bursting into laughter with her, the hopeful smile he sports as he reaches for her hand), frets over her safety so much he almost dives headfirst into Shinra headquarters alone (to which Barret comments "Wow, so you really can care about someone else").

Basically, he shows the both of them a significant amount of affection.

I don't think it's an end to all proof, there are more quotes and instances that are suited for that.

Agreed. Personally, I think Cloud and Tifa's relationship starts and expands from the Lifestream scene through CoT and finally is resolved in AC, hence why I don't think there's enough in the game alone to establish them as a couple.

Why would she continue to wear pink, to keep her promise to Zack, then?

Why wouldn't she? She likes pink and Zack was important to her. Again I ask, why would she throw it out?

 

[A]

Simply because Zack isn't replaceable doesn't mean Aeris can't find qualities in Cloud she likes more. It's simply different.

Qualities that she didn't get to actually see because she never got to meet the real Cloud?

Again, I have to point out both Aeris and Tifa are called motherly and it doesn't really matter. Being mom-ish doesn't take either one out of the running for being a love interest.

While this is true, the fact that Cloud himself feels a motherly essence within Aerith whilst Tifa's thoughts of a blooming motherly love aren't thoughts from Cloud. Cloud never feels/describes Tifa as a mother.

Why wouldn't she? She likes pink and Zack was important to her. Again I ask, why would she throw it out?

Because that's what people do to let go of the past. She converses with Cloud trying to forget about Zack, but why would she keep the ribbon if she really wanted to forget about him? There must be a reason. And usually couples in irl tend to throw out stuff with their exes because they don't want any reminders.

No, he doesn't have an exact similar scenario, but he does express happiness with Aeris (bursting into laughter with her, the hopeful smile he sports as he reaches for her hand), frets over her safety so much he almost dives headfirst into Shinra headquarters alone (to which Barret comments "Wow, so you really can care about someone else").

Again, I'll say Jenova mimicking cells.

 

[Eerie]

Agreed. Personally, I think Cloud and Tifa's relationship starts and expands from the Lifestream scene through CoT and finally is resolved in AC, hence why I don't think there's enough in the game alone to establish them as a couple.

I beg to differ.
Cloud and Tifa's relationship begins way before that, at the well when Cloud made the promise to Tifa. That changed their whole lives. BTW, this was their first date - I remember that this well is used for dates in Nibelheim? You can even say that it all began the day he followed her when they were kids.
It's because it's so important that a bit of Cloud from Tifa's memories is carved into his new personality at the beginning of FFVII.