The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[Makoeyes987]

Here's what it says about the Aerith laughing incident from the 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud profile, Compilation Check.

Compilation Check

Cloud’s Rare Smile.

At the start of FFVII Cloud posed as a “cool ex-SOLDIER”, and kept up a cocky front. After it is revealed that he was never in SOLDIER, and he begins to act like himself, but he still doesn’t show his emotions very much. The only time he laughs in FFVII is during a conversation with Aerith at the start of the story, when Jenova is still in control of his consciousness.

Please keep the context of that laughing moment in mind. That's not the real Cloud. Jenova and Cloud's false persona is the one at work there. Its not the real Cloud. I'm not sure of any *real* romantic moments Cloud and Aerith share at all in FFVII.

Cloud also frets over Tifa's safely, numerous times. And not only that, and more.

And fair enough Zee, I can understand accept that viewpoint. I disagree because I feel Cloud definitely had romantic feelings for her ever since he was a kid..but well if you can acknowledge that much, that's pretty good. But I do still feel that Zack and Aerith had a love and bond much greater than what she feels for Cloud as shown in CC.

I'm still not letting you go in showing me where she shows she likes Cloud more. I want to see

 

[Ryushikaze]

Simply because Zack isn't replaceable doesn't mean Aeris can't find qualities in Cloud she likes more. It's simply different.

Which is all well and good, but that's distinctly not a quote.

Again, I have to point out both Aeris and Tifa are called motherly and it doesn't really matter. Being mom-ish doesn't take either one out of the running for being a love interest.

No, but Cloud feeling Aerith is motherly is certainly a mark against.

No, he doesn't have an exact similar scenario, but he does express happiness with Aeris (bursting into laughter with her,

When he cracks a joke at her expense while Jenova is in control?

the hopeful smile he sports as he reaches for her hand),

Hopeful smile? You mean the rather blank look he sports?

frets over her safety so much he almost dives headfirst into Shinra headquarters alone (to which Barret comments "Wow, so you really can care about someone else").

I do think you are overstating this, while also failing to note that he also wishes to literally charge headfirst into Corneo's to rescue Tifa until Aerith says that would be a bad idea.

Basically, he shows the both of them a significant amount of affection.

Yes, the question is why is Aerith declared to be considered extra special?

Agreed. Personally, I think Cloud and Tifa's relationship starts and expands from the Lifestream scene through CoT and finally is resolved in AC, hence why I don't think there's enough in the game alone to establish them as a couple.

It's enough to establish them as the start of a couple, and that something happened under the highwind.

Why wouldn't she? She likes pink

I'm curious where you get that she likes pink to that extent.

and Zack was important to her. Again I ask, why would she throw it out?

Why would the creators deliberately draw the link between Pink and Zack, having an explicit promise for her to wear pink upon their reuniting?

 

[Celes Chere]

Simply because Zack isn't replaceable doesn't mean Aeris can't find qualities in Cloud she likes more. It's simply different.

Indeed, but Zack and Aerith are described to have sincere love, and an inseparable relationship. Sure, she sees things in Cloud that are separate from Zack, but I don't see how she fell in love with Cloud, or moved on from Zack. If there's proof that she moved on, I'd like to see it because CoL isn't cutting it for reasons others have listed above.

Again, I have to point out both Aeris and Tifa are called motherly and it doesn't really matter. Being mom-ish doesn't take either one out of the running for being a love interest.

I know, they both have been called Motherly, but they have also been said to be different kinds of Motherly. Aerith is like a Mother to the planet, and to those who are pained and confused. Tifa is like a Mother of Cloud's family. I think there is a very big difference there.

No, he doesn't have an exact similar scenario, but he does express happiness with Aeris (bursting into laughter with her, the hopeful smile he sports as he reaches for her hand), frets over her safety so much he almost dives headfirst into Shinra headquarters alone (to which Barret comments "Wow, so you really can care about someone else").

Note that the Ultimania made it quite clear that Aerith made Cloud laugh while Jenova was still in control of his consciousness. It seems strange to me, that they would feel a need to mention that, don't you think? I guess I'm wondering when you think Aerith moved on from Zack, and how she possibly could have grown into a strong love with Cloud when she never even knew who he really was.

Again I ask, why would she throw it out?

Well, notice that Aerith wears blue in CC until Zack expresses his interest in the color pink. They then make a promise about it. Why would Aerith keep her promise with Zack alive, especially if she were over him? And like Ryu said, why bother connecting the ribbon and color to Zack, if it means nothing?

 

[Fighter]

Without all the ltd semantics I always thought the Lifestream and Highwind scenes were the end of all proof.

Ultimania seems to nail that down. What else is there to say when it's been written black on white that the feelings realized in the Lifestream are confirmed as mutual.

 

[null.]

There's no mention of Zack because he's with her. In the Lifestream.

That's like saying there's no mention of Aerith in the two years after her death because her consciousness lives on inside of Cloud.

And CoL (which takes place before and into the beginning of AC) isn't about Areith's views on Cloud, it's about how Sephiroth created Geostigma, and Aerith is worried for her friend, a man she loves. Yes. Not a man she loves MORE.

I didn't say she loved Zack less, I said she moved on.

And the end of AC shows her WITH Zack.

Ok, is she WITH Zack, or is he there to see his friend off? I thought ACC brought Zack into a more active support role.

No, I really can't interpret a lot of how he behaves as romantic. That's not sarcasm, that's genuine befuddlement because I don't see it. I see Aerith liking Cloud, yes. But I don't see the reciprocation in any depth. Again, I ask, an example please.

What, it's not romantic that he constantly runs to her rescue? That he embraces his role as a bodyguard?

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Without all the ltd semantics I always thought the Lifestream and Highwind scenes were the end of all proof.

Ultimania seems to nail that down. What else is there to say when it's been written black on white that the feelings realized in the Lifestream are confirmed as mutual.

Exactly.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

What, it's not romantic that he constantly runs to her rescue? That he embraces his role as a bodyguard?

Uh, no. Tifa also runs to her rescue. As does Barret. And everyone later in the game when Sephiroth stabbity stabs her. So no. Him fulfilling his role as "body guard" isn't all that romantic.

The secret service agents would take a bullet for Obama, but I bet they don't wanna make sweet lovin' on the front lawn of the White House.

 

[Celes Chere]

That he embraces his role as a bodyguard?

Childhood(and beyond) 'blonde knight' and 'prince' beats that, imo.

Edit: It's because of Tifa, he became obsessed with protecting people. I wonder if he would have agreed to be Aerith's bodyguard if he never remembered Tifa and their promise?

 

[Ryushikaze]

That's like saying there's no mention of Aerith in the two years after her death because her consciousness lives on inside of Cloud.

Not that that's what it actually said, but pfeh. In any case, Zack's not in it because he's not vital to the story. We are told he's with her constantly elsewhere, so, pfeh.

I didn't say she loved Zack less, I said she moved on.

I'd disagree. She's trying to move on, but hasn't quite. That's what I get from FF7, esepcially after CC, anyways.

Ok, is she WITH Zack, or is he there to see his friend off? I thought ACC brought Zack into a more active support role.

Zack gets his own scene with Cloud, but they still chose to retain Z and A appearing together twice, even though Zack was given his own scene.

What, it's not romantic that he constantly runs to her rescue? That he embraces his role as a bodyguard?

Constantly? But really, it's not, since everyone seems to treat Aerith similarly, even random Turks, and fellow party members. How he treats her, aside from feeling responsible for her demise, is much the same as how others treat her, even hardass Cid.

You could say there's a romantic sort of notion to it all, but it's not really a sign of romantic intent.

 

[Fighter]

What, it's not romantic that he constantly runs to her rescue? That he embraces his role as a bodyguard?

And then you could tell her Tifa is your girlfriend.

 

[A]

I don't know of any other guy who would cross dress in order to save the girl.

Or simply steal her underwear.

 

[MissSugar]

Phew I've been reading all those posts now lol but I still haven't seen any quotes by you cleriths which indicate that Cloud has romantic feelings towards Aerith. Could you pls list some?? I think I've missed that while playing the game or reading the ultimania etc O_o Are there any quotes by cloud actually which say stuff like "Because I'm with you.." "It's a little different this time" "I wanted to be noticed by you" "There a lot of things I wanted to talk to you about.." etc ?

 

[Eerie]

You have to admit that Cloud does make a pretty girl

Did he already know that so he went there with that idea in mind, to seduce Corneo so that he wouldn't put his hands on Tifa?

 

[Fighter]

I think I'll address the whole "new-koibito" vs. Zerith thing when we start discussing ACC spoilers openly. Because I think some of the changes have a lot to say about that.

 

[Makoeyes987]

C'mon, remember what I said. Let's keep the crack to a minimum and keep the debate going. And if someone said something you already were going to, just refrain so we don't end up making the other person fish through the other posts to get to the one they're replying to.

@Fighter

If you want to, post your thoughts on it and just put them behind spoiler tags. They can be discussed outside the spoiler forum so long as there are tags.

 

[A]

It seems that we've already covered some parts of ACC openly here in this thread.

C'mon, remember what I said. Let's keep the crack to a minimum and keep the debate going. And if someone said something you already were going to, just refrain so we don't end up making the other person fish through the other posts to get to the one they're replying to.

Not necessarily crack when it's true.

 

[Zee]

Please keep the context of that laughing moment in mind. That's not the real Cloud. Jenova and Cloud's false persona is the one at work there. Its not the real Cloud.

Obviously Jenova had a great sense of humor.

It should be noted that Cloud is not entirely under Jenova's control.

From Omega:
These voices are the original Cloud, as -- due to Hojo's Sephiroth Clones experiment -- Zack's personality merged with his, creating the present day Cloud, producing a conflict of multiple personalities.

In the scene when the young Cloud explains his mental state by saying “I used to think people around me are foolish”, surprisingly, he shows the posture of shrugging his shoulders. If we consider this, the part of his coolness that keeps him away from the surroundings and the part of his asserting “Not interested” has nothing to do with the influence of Jenova cells, they belong to the real Cloud’s personality.

And let's not forget the immortal Cloti line, where he says he knows he's the Cloud from Nibelheim because of what Tifa said.

Basically he was very screwed up, but the real Cloud is beneath all that crap.

Aeris saying she liked Cloud more than Zack if you'll humor me:
Aerith was in even greater pain when she thought about Cloud. She also had good feelings towards him. At first, she thought he somehow had some similarities to her first love. Even so, his looks, voice and personality weren't similar and he also made her think of him as a mysterious person... But it soon didn't matter. She loved him much more than her first love.


As for Aeris not knowing the real Cloud:"So you won’t have a breakdown..”
Aerith appears in Cloud’s dream, she seems to console him with such advice. This line can infer that Aerith has seen through the essence of Cloud.

-- Omega

 

[Strangelove]

It seems that we've already covered some parts of ACC openly here in this thread.

Well you shouldn't

 

[Ryushikaze]

In that specific instance, Zee, he is specified as being under Jenova's control.

Zee, if you quote the first chapter of maiden, do not neglect the later chapter in which we, the audience learn that the 'man she loved much more than her first love' was still primarily made up of- in her own mind- of aspects he had stolen from Zack, that she didn't know who he really was.

As for seen through the essence, it's referring to his faux persona, to see that there's something else beyond, but not what that necessarily is- hence her desire to get to know the real Cloud.

 

[A]

Why is everyone ignoring the fact that the Jenova mimicking cells caused Cloud's multiple personalities. He's under Jenova's control. And even more, if he did produce a conflict of multiple personalities, NONE of them have Cloud's true personality, hence Aerith even coming out to wanting to meet the real Cloud. The fact that Cloud says, "not interested," to having a girl friend who's older is the real Cloud. And we all know that Aerith is older than him. What does that prove? Again, if you're to bring up Maiden, note that she admits herself that she NEVER knew the real Cloud. Is that supposed to be repeated? Aerith seeing through the essence of Cloud doesn't exactly mean she discovers who the real Cloud is. She knows that Cloud's not who he acts out to be, hence the line in Maiden, if you're really going to try to use that as proof.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Not all of him is Jenova but most of it is. Cloud's real persona is buried and only slips through during the times it speaks to Cloud in his head. That laughing scene is not one of those times, the real Cloud breaks through. That Ultimania quote doesn't say that, and the 10th Anniversary Ultimania, which was published later, still doesn't say that was the real Cloud. If anything, it says the opposite.

And let me again, show you another portion from the 10th Anniversary Profile of Cloud.

Compilation Check

The Fate Befalling a “Puppet of Jenova.”

At the age of 16 Cloud was sent on a mission to his hometown of Nibelheim, where Sephiroth went out of control (what is commonly called the “Sephiroth Incident&#8221. Cloud, having suffered heavy injuries during the incident, was injected with cells from Jenova, an extraterrestrial life form. These cells, which Sephiroth also had in his body, controlled Cloud’s thoughts and created a separate personality, and tried to manipulate Cloud into joining with Sephiroth. Even the Meteor crisis was indirectly caused by Cloud having become a puppet to Sephiroth. In FFVII Cloud finally regains his true self and defeats Sephiroth, but this doesn’t mean he’s completely freed from the will of Jenova, and in AC he is tormented by the Remnant’s call for

You can't say that Cloud's true persona was dominant or surfacing a majority of the time during disc 1. The times that it did, the game specifically showed it.

And that quote is from Maiden, and that book is not within the continuity of the Compilation. It's inconsistent with the Compilation and is not included in any listing of what the entries of the Compilation of FFVII entails. It's not reliable or indicative of her true feelings due to its inconsistencies and it being totally ignored by the creators of FFVII.

As for Aerith knowing the real Cloud.....fair enough, but where did you find that quote from the FFVII Ultimania Omega? What page and section?

 

[Celes Chere]

Just one thing about that quote from Maiden. Adding on to what Ryu said, Aerith said she imagined all of the things that made Cloud unique, which is far more than the way he looked and gestured (those were in a separate category). All of the things she thought made Cloud unique, ended up awakening Zack. And then later, we see Aerith admitting that she didn't know who the real Cloud was until Tifa fixed him up in the Lifestream. Aerith also got jealous of Tifa for being the only one who could help Cloud, and then she entrusted all of her feelings for Cloud to Tifa and asked her to take care of him on earth.

Although I don't consider Maiden canon, I really wish it were sometimes. And why? I think it's a negative to the CxA side.

 

[A]

@Mako

As far as I know, I've only seen that quote in the Clerith site. Strange that they have page numbers for the other quotes 'cept that one. But what do I know?

http://clerith.com/Not Zack.htm

Although, I don't consider Maiden canon, I really wish it was sometimes. And why? I think it's a negative to the CxA side.

While this is true, it's kinda a negative to Zerith as well.

 

[Zee]

The quote about Aeris seeing through Cloud is in Omega, page 156 chapter 5.

Zee, if you quote the first chapter of maiden, do not neglect the later chapter in which we, the audience learn that the 'man she loved much more than her first love' was still primarily made up of- in her own mind- of aspects he had stolen from Zack, that she didn't know who he really was.

Which were all really physical aspects, as is mentioned. It was when she recalled the actions of Cloud did Zack appear (specifically, his walk).

Not saying Cloud was ever 100% on disk one, however, aspects of his true self were still there in his character, simply buried. Wasn't that one of the main points in the Lifestream scene? That Cloud was fractured but not totally gone.

In any case, by the end of Maiden:

She was happy. She was happy that she now knew the real Cloud and was able to watch over him, even though it was just for a short while.

So in the end, she her feelings haven't shown any indication of massive change -- Cloud is still her focus.

However, if you are going to assert that Cloud was too fuddled up on disk one, then I have to stand even harder by my view that no romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa exists until after he has found himself in the lifestream. Seeing as how they barely knew each other before he left, Tifa has no significant advantage over Aeris in truly knowing Cloud's personality until he's restored.

Childhood(and beyond) 'blonde knight' and 'prince' beats that, imo.

In your opinion. In my opinion, bodyguard and knight are basically the same thing.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well I definitely would like to know where that quote comes from then, and yeah, Maiden doesn't really do much for the C/A side at all. And it shits on the facts of CC and Z/A's relationship too. It's too inconsistent to be canon though and it is neglected numerous times in all subsequent Compilation of FFVII literature and listings of the Compilation. It just isn't canon.

EDIT: Thanks for the clarification. What part of page 156, do you know? It is the section where Aerith leaves the group and all. I just am curious as to what else it says and all. But thank you.

Honestly, is discussing Maiden really a point, given its numerous contradictions and its removal from canon? The same goes for Last Order too. Both are outside the continuity and filled with fuck ups and holes. If we're gonna debate the LT of the FFVII Compilation, let's stick to the compilation. It's almost like bringing KH into the mix here.

And if you say that there was nothing between Cloud and Tifa and kids, why is most of everything Cloud doing now, based off of the promise from his childhood and his relationship to Tifa? Him wanting to be a SOLDIER, stems from wanting to impress her. Him looking after her, stems from the promise.

Compilation Check

A Promise to Tifa, Etched in his Memory.

When Cloud left the village dreaming of being a SOLDIER, he swore to Tifa that he would come running to her rescue if she was in trouble. While it was Tifa who strong-armed him into making the promise, it seems that the idea that he must keep this vow was forever in Cloud’s mind. In BC he is obsessive about protecting people, and if he runs out of strength part way though he will mention the “promise.”

Clearly it's not just the past, and the promise to Tifa is very much apart of him now. That's a pretty significant advantage. He was thinking of her, even after he left and holding the promise in his heart.