The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[Fairheartstrife]

I see a lot of debating involving Aerith's feelings for Cloud, and to that I say "Well, duh." Yes, she loved Cloud. I'm not about to argue that. The hows and whys are irrelevant as the emotion itself is valid and sustained. The whether or not she loved him more than Zack is laughable, but that's my (well substantiated) opinion.

MY question--and has always been my question--when involved in any ltd discussion (which until very recently is rare, due to my aforementioned position that there is NO debate) is: where in the hell is it shown that Cloud in ANY way reciprocates it? **still waiting**

 

[Zee]

If everyone is gonna get their panties in a twist over Maiden, I won't bring it up anymore. I'll bring up CoL instead, is that fair?

 

[Celes Chere]

Which were all really physical aspects, as is mentioned. It was when she recalled the actions of Cloud did Zack appear (specifically, his walk).

Nuuu, like I said, Aerith thought of all the things that made Cloud unique, which was separate from his gestures and the way he looked.

She was happy. She was happy that she now knew the real Cloud and was able to watch over him, even though it was just for a short while.

This line doesn't really imply romance, especially since she just entrusted all of her feelings to someone else.

Seeing as how they barely knew each other before he left

Aren't you the one that said the length that two people knew eachother, doesn't matter? For the short time Tifa and Cloud were together, they shared a night together and made a promise. Even though they were apart, they still adored one another secretly.

In your opinion. In my opinion, bodyguard and knight are basically the same thing.

Correct, that is my opinion. I just think the fact that the reason Cloud protects people in the first place(Tifa), means a lot more than what Aerith kind of forced onto him.

@Ali- That's why I said I sometimes wish Maiden were canon. =) There are things in it that don't fit with the story.

I don't mind Maiden being used in debates, but that's not going to change the fact that it's not canon to me.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Lifestream White certainly has a lot more weight and legitimacy, since its written by Nojima and definitely, without question, part of the Compilation. Maiden is just frankly, out of step and full of holes. Same goes for Last Order.

 

[Zee]

MY question--and has always been my question--when involved in any ltd discussion (which until very recently is rare, due to my aforementioned position that there is NO debate) is: where in the hell is it shown that Cloud in ANY way reciprocates it? **still waiting**

Despite the fact that I believe Cloud loves both girls, I don't think there's an absolute proofz for either girl, mostly because the way the love triangle is handled in the compilation there's enough room for either side who doesn't agree to grossly oversimplify his affections for the other woman.

However, I think Cloud extreme over protectiveness of her, his warming up to her despite the asshole-ish personality trying to take over, how hard he takes failing her so far as to move into her church suggest there's something slightly more going on with his feelings than simple friendship.

I don't think he ever took it so hard that he planned on slitting his wrists over her grave while listening to Linkin Park, nor do I think that he is so incapable of getting over her that he can't live out a normal life with Tifa, but I do think she got under his skin in a unique way.

 

[Ryushikaze]

However, if you are going to assert that Cloud was too fuddled up on disk one, then I have to stand even harder by my view that no romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa exists until after he has found himself in the lifestream.

Of course not. They aren't aware of the mutual feelings of each other before this time. But the feelings that they discovered DID EXIST before this point.

Seeing as how they barely knew each other before he left, Tifa has no significant advantage over Aeris in truly knowing Cloud's personality until he's restored.

Except she DID, knowing from the start that there was something 'off' about him, asking him to help AVALANCHE so she could keep an eye on him.
Of course, even if this IS where 'real Cloud' first makes an appearance and Tifa only gets to start knowing him from the lifestream, she's still got longer til the end of the game to get to know Cloud than Aerith ever had, according to the timeline.

In your opinion. In my opinion, bodyguard and knight are basically the same thing.

How, exactly?

Cloud moving into the church actually has the opposite of romantic implication, since he's said to leave his comfort in moving there.
And again, EVERYONE is protective of Aerith, and CID warms up to her. How is Cloud's reaction somehow special or unique?
And for that matter, Cloud starts warming up to people after his first talk with Tifa. It's hardly Aerith 'melting his cold exterior' alone or however that nonsense gets played.

 

[null.]

Uh, no. Tifa also runs to her rescue. As does Barret. And everyone later in the game when Sephiroth stabbity stabs her. So no. Him fulfilling his role as "body guard" isn't all that romantic.

In your opinion. I find them to be _quite_ romantic.

The secret service agents would take a bullet for Obama, but I bet they don't wanna make sweet lovin' on the front lawn of the White House.

Bad analogy, the SS is getting paid with $$$, swear oaths and are legally obligated to stand their posts. Cloud is getting paid with a date.

I see a lot of debating involving Aerith's feelings for Cloud, and to that I say "Well, duh." Yes, she loved Cloud. I'm not about to argue that. The hows and whys are irrelevant as the emotion itself is valid and sustained. The whether or not she loved him more than Zack is laughable, but that's my (well substantiated) opinion.

Like what?

MY question--and has always been my question--when involved in any ltd discussion (which until very recently is rare, due to my aforementioned position that there is NO debate) is: where in the hell is it shown that Cloud in ANY way reciprocates it? **still waiting**

Again, Cloud's behavior is an axiom. It isn't something you prove, it's something you agree on and build from there. There's no point in arguing opinion.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Eh, I disagree, because going by context and facts we know of the story, there's definitely evidence that's pretty clear if you look at it for what is. People claim FFVII is a lot more ambiguous than it is. They don't leave a lot up to interpretation nor do they shy away from answering things. They just choose not to lead the player by the nose because they feel they're more than capable of seeing the writing on the wall.

This quote says it best about the "ambiguity" of FFVII.

The goal was to make players think a little harder and pay closer attention to a more complex storyline. "I don't know if you could really say that FFVII had any unanswered questions to speak of," claims Nomura, taking what some of his fans [or detractors] might characterize as a slightly controversial stand. "We just created FFVII with the idea that we wouldn't just come out and tell people the answers. The answers are there, but no one is there to tell you where to look for them. We didn't leave anything hanging."

There's definitely an answer if you look for one.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

In your opinion. I find them to be _quite_ romantic.

And you asked for my opinion. So I gave it.

Bad analogy, the SS is getting paid with $$$, swear oaths and are legally obligated to stand their posts. Cloud is getting paid with a date.

Oh, that's right. Within fifteen minutes of knowing the guy Aerith offered herself up in exchange for services...I think there's a word for that. And Cloud never actually agrees to the date.

Like what?

Like any of the number of things I've already mentioned.

Again, Cloud's behavior is an axiom. It isn't something you prove, it's something you agree on and build from there. There's no point in arguing opinion.

I'm not arguing opinions. I'm arguing fact. If someone wants to favor Cloud and Aerith that's fine. It's an opinion. and a fanon. The point of the LTD--at least what I infer it to be--is to establish which couple is the canon couple, to which there is a right answer to, not simply an opinion of. Cloud's behavior is consistent in only ONE aspect. His commitment to Tifa.

 

[Zee]

Cloud's behavior is consistent in only ONE aspect. His commitment to Tifa.

And Zack and Aeris. Tifa wasn't the only one Cloud was fighting for, if you notice.

Although really, I think between Aeris and Tifa, Zack kinda wins out in the "commitment" aspect.

For once, I'm actually serious about the gay subtext.

And Cloud never actually agrees to the date.

Says who? She says "take me home and protect me and I'll give you a date" What does he do? Takes her home, insists on protecting her.

Words aren't the only way to tell what people are thinking, INDEED.

@Mako: There was another quote of his that was something along the lines of "The players decided for themselves", personally, I think all his answers are cop outs and he doesn't care as long as he's making money from both sides of the fandom.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Eh, I'd like to see where he says that. Because while I've heard people say that, I've not seen anyone put up the evidence. That quote I gave and the evidence that shows Cloud is starting a life with Tifa by his side and them describing Tifa as a lover to someone, isn't indicative of them just letting the players decide for themselves. At all. Its incongruent to their being no answer.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

And Zack and Aeris. Tifa wasn't the only one Cloud was fighting for, if you notice.

Although really, I think between Aeris and Tifa, Zack kinda wins out in the "commitment" aspect.

For once, I'm actually serious about the gay subtext.

Says who? She says "take me home and protect me and I'll give you a date" What does he do? Takes her home, insists on protecting her.

Words aren't the only way to tell what people are thinking, INDEED.

@Mako: There was another quote of his that was something along the lines of "The players decided for themselves", personally, I think all his answers are cop outs and he doesn't care as long as he's making money from both sides of the fandom.

He's not only fighting for Tifa. I never said he was. I said his constant is his commitment to her. She's why he stays with Avalanche in the first place. She's why he does a lot of things.

And as for the agreeing to the date. No, he doesn't. Guards and Turks kinda keep him busy, and besides, what was he supposed to say. "You know, I'll protect you but there's no need to offer me a date..." Not a lot of convo time. Later, in the Shinra Tower, she even asks again: "Our agreement was for one date, right?" Which again, he never gets to answer because the other girl...you know the one sharing a cell with him...overhears. Not saying he couldn't have potentially said yes--as much as I doubt it, I'm not so closed minded I can't see that as an option--I'm saying, that point of fact, he didn't.

 

[Zee]

Eh, I'd like to see where he says that. Because while I've heard people say that, I've not seen anyone put up the evidence.

I'll try and dig it up again for you. It sucks since I know I posted it at least twice on ACF, but it's dead, and CxA doesn't let you view previous individual posts like this forum does. However I do know it was an interview done right before KH2 came out.

@Fairheartstrife, which is why I said, his actions speak louder than words. He doesn't really have to say yes or no to her, he throws himself to the task of being her bodyguard willingly and enthusiastically.

And I agree, Tifa is why he does a lot of things. However, so are Zack and Aeris.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Eh, I'd like to see where he says that. Because while I've heard people say that, I've not seen anyone put up the evidence. That quote I gave and the evidence that shows Cloud is starting a life with Tifa by his side and them describing Tifa as a lover to someone, isn't indicative of them just letting the players decide for themselves. At all. Its incongruent to their being no answer.

He says it in relation to Kingdom Hearts. I've seen a lot of Clerith fans throw it up in FFVII debates, when it's not even relevant to the topic of the LTD, because it's not referencing the LTD.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

@Fairheartstrife, which is why I said, his actions speak louder than words. He doesn't really have to say yes or no to her, he throws himself to the task of being her bodyguard willingly and enthusiastically.

He also tries to sneak out of her house in the middle of the night to get away... Actions do speak louder than words.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well if its only about KH2 then

Anyways it wouldn't make any sense, even if he said it. If they told us they left it up to the player, yet spam one viewpoint and conclusion, then clearly they have something in mind and you can't just leave it up to interpretation. The writing is there staring you in the face. It can't be ignored.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Can we keep the vague generalities the hell out of this thread, please?
They've always pissed me the hell off, and really, all they do is make for another round of asking 'where was this exactly' or 'can you point me to this'

Really, they just suck. So, Zee, HOW are Zack and Aerith reasons for why he does things, and what are they the reasons. EXAMPLES. PRESENT THEM.

 

[Zee]

He also tries to sneak out of her house in the middle of the night to get away... Actions do speak louder than words.

He didn't want to have to make an honest woman out of her.

Really, they just suck. So, Zee, HOW are Zack and Aerith reasons for why he does things, and what are they the reasons. EXAMPLES. PRESENT THEM.

Zack is Cloud's inspiration and motivation throughout his time as he attempts to train for SOLDIER. He has a "great influence" on Cloud, the person who encourages him even as Cloud is frustrated. (CCU pg24) Not to mention, the final thing Zack says to Cloud, "You're the proof that I lived", or something along those lines, is certainly one of the main things that effects Cloud's personalit(ies).

Aeris pretty much lights a fire under Cloud's ass. She ignores his jerky attitude and is the one that helps him rescue Tifa. It's her capture that pushes him to go into Shinra headquarters (almost on his own). he's determined to defeat Sephiroth after her death, and is even further motivated after discovering what she was trying to do to save the planet.

When Sephiroth is about to kill Cloud in AC, his faces flash to all three of these people because THEY are the three he's always fought for.

 

[Isabella]

I'm mostly keeping out of this, but I just want to ask Zee to clarify one thing: Do you see Cloud and Tifa being in a romantic relationship post-AC? 'Cause I'm sorta open-minded about what Cloud felt for Aeris while she lived. I think a lot of that is up to player whim. What I have trouble wrapping my mind around is the notion that Cloud and Aerith have a romantic relationship post-AC and that Cloud is only living with Tifa to take advantage of her awesome cooking and cleaning skills.

 

[Zee]

I'm mostly keeping out of this, but I just want to ask Zee to clarify one thing: Do you see Cloud and Tifa being in a romantic relationship post-AC? 'Cause I'm sorta open-minded about what Cloud felt for Aeris while she lived. I think a lot of that is up to player whim. What I have trouble wrapping my mind around is the notion that Cloud and Aerith have a romantic relationship post-AC and that Cloud is only living with Tifa to take advantage of her awesome cooking and cleaning skills.

Oh, I totally see Cloud and Tifa in a romantic relationship post AC. I don't believe that Cloud and Aeris could...or even should, if it was possible, continue on a romantic relationship after her death. At most (due to Calling) I figure she'd hang around as a spirit, watching, but not interfering until she turned into lifestream goo, or got reincarnated as a tree, or something. I was never quite clear on how that worked.

 

[Vendel]

Oh, I totally see Cloud and Tifa in a romantic relationship post AC. I don't believe that Cloud and Aeris could...or even should, if it was possible, continue on a romantic relationship after her death. At most (due to Calling) I figure she'd hang around as a spirit, watching, but not interfering until she turned into lifestream goo, or got reincarnated as a tree, or something. I was never quite clear on how that worked.

Well thank God for sanity.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Thank you for providing examples and explanations, Zee. I knew your statement regarding motivation was valid, I just HATE when people state things like that without providing examples, be it in the LTD, a VS debate, or any other such medium.

That applies to both sides of this debate, BTW, don't just state things, point to specific examples. The more obscure, the more you probably ought to provide citations or even quotations, or even both.

 

[Isabella]

@Zee: Fair enough. I know we don't agree on the details (I think their relationship began under the Highwind), but I'm too caffeine-deprived at the moment to argue the point. I mostly get my nose out of joint when people bastardize the characters, which IMO is what must inevitably happen when we get into the realm of spirit lovin'.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Pfft. I'll add my two cents fast, sicne everyone's replied.

both Aeris and Tifa are called motherly and it doesn't really matter. Being mom-ish doesn't take either one out of the running for being a love interest.

Except Aeris' mothering qualities are emphasized at every turn. Her lingering motherly presence in the Forgotten City, the motherly presence everyone (including Cloud) feels....
Tifa's only so in relation to their family, as a caretaker of Cloud's family.

bursting into laughter with her,

When he makes fun of her while Jenova's in control. Next.

I do think you are overstating this, while also failing to note that he also wishes to literally charge headfirst into Corneo's to rescue Tifa until Aerith says that would be a bad idea.

Let me add that Tifa actually voluntarily went there to get information. She wasn't hounded by Shinra's assassins like Aeris. Cloud still thought it'd be a good idea to charge in and dress as a woman though.
"well, if it's to save Tifa" I guess anything goes

Basically he was very screwed up, but the real Cloud is beneath all that crap.

Yes, but SE has decided that at that particular moment he wasn't. In fact, they blatantly tell you this. Why is it you're willing to take their word on "she loved him much more than her first love" in maiden, but not when they say "He was fucked and under Jenova's control while laughing"?

:"So you won’t have a breakdown..”

That just means she knew he was fucked up. He beat her up and almost killed her then "woke up" WTFing.
He did have a breakdown right in front of her. If Aeris knew the real Cloud, she would not tell him she wanted to meet the real Cloud. That'd make Aeris dumb, and the her lines rather redudant.

She was happy that she now knew the real Cloud

....so we agree that before she saw Tifa piece him together she didn't? Because no one's saying Aeris is still clueless. She watched as Cloud's heart called to Tifa, after all and watched her take a stroll through Cloud's mind.

Which were all really physical aspects, as is mentioned.

The CHARACTER she created was recognized by Zack as HIS CHARACTER.
I didn't know there was a new definition for that word now - it changes every day. First it's personality traits, like koibito, then it's actions....

he's determined to defeat Sephiroth after her death

Cloud wanted to settle with Sephiroth long before Aeris' death. It's quite blatantly stated.
I'm not doubting her death's contribution to it, but saying things like "he wanted to fight Sephiroth after he killed Aeris" is a little too rabid-devotionee for my tastes and rapes the story like nothing else.
I'm sure you actually didn't mean that, but that's how you phrased it.

Oh, I totally see Cloud and Tifa in a romantic relationship post AC.

I'm curious as to why you think so post-AC alone.

 

[A]

Says who? She says "take me home and protect me and I'll give you a date" What does he do? Takes her home, insists on protecting her.

Words aren't the only way to tell what people are thinking, INDEED.

You do realize that Aerith literally has to strong arm him if he does get the date with her?

And the date scene is called, "Interrupted By Fireworks." I'm not sure to which why SE would add a title such as that if Cloud and Aerith were intended to go on the date. And Tifa's the only one who's actually 'interrupted by fireworks.'