The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

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Celes Chere

Banned
AKA
Noctis
- Is Tifa Cloud's? No, he's also had close relationships with Zack, Aeris, hell he even has a few moments where he opens up to Sephiroth.
- Yes, Cloud did say that. So he must be a glutton for punishment if he keeps leaving.
- Again, if Cloud wants to start a new life with Tifa, why does he leave her?
- Tifa does understand Cloud a lot, yes. Understand him completely? No.

It is stated that Cloud's heart was only opened to Tifa; and I believe that quote is in the AC prologue book.
Do you know why Cloud left the family? Not because his life was miserable, or because he wanted to be with Aerith. Because he was afraid of ruining the happiness he had with Tifa and his family. He also left due to past failures and Geostigma. Hey, I'm just going by what Cloud himself said, and also, I believe I just answered the question as to why Cloud left. I thought it was made very clear, especially after ACC. I never said that Tifa understood Cloud completely, the RF says that she still doesn't understand some of the complexities of his heart. It also says however, that she is the woman that understands him all too well, and supports the mentally weak side of him. I wonder if Aerith has any quotes like that?

She doesn't. You kind of have to know the real someone, to understand them.

So is Tifa - she takes care of Denzel and Marlene, she has a material bond with Cloud who is called a "big kid", and the "motherly" feelings in CoT, still there in the revised version I notice.

I think I covered this before, but Aerith and Tifa are stated to both have Motherly feelings- which are both very different. Aerith is a Mother to those who are pained and confused (Including Cloud), also, to the entire planet. Tifa is the Mother of Cloud's family.

Where is it stated how long Cloud stayed there? And yes, it is understandable, when you're grieving to go to a place connection to the person you're grieving for. Agreed entirely.

I'd say ask RyuRyu or Hito... or can someone else step in? x'D It's been told to me before, but I'm not going to screw myself over by guessing the timeline. They're the ones who know all about the calender and all that jazz. *I think* It was about two weeks, three at most.
 

Ⓐaron

Factiō Rēpūblicāna dēlenda est.
AKA
The Man, V
I think it's for a couple of weeks. When in doubt about a period of time in FFVII's continuity, it's probably two weeks. I wish I were kidding, but seriously it shows up all over the place.
 
Again, if Cloud wants to start a new life with Tifa, why does he leave her? Nomura herself says "she's like any woman who's been left behind by a man". And yeah, Cloud did leave her.

You know, I always found this quote interesting and thought it wasn't very different from Barret/Cid's statement about Tifa "wearing the pants" in the relationship. "A woman left behind by a man." Hmm, is this implication that Cloud and Tifa were in a relationship? She is called a koibito afterall.

And yes, Cloud did leave. But we are also told he and Tifa reached a communion and begin living together again.

LT should be over long time ago, no offense to anyone who enjoy sporting this thread. Whatever struggles they may have had are solved by the end of AC(C).
 

DrakeClawfang

The Wanderer of Time
It is stated that Cloud's heart was only opened to Tifa; and I believe that quote is in the AC prologue book.
Do you know why Cloud left the family? Not because his life was miserable, or because he wanted to be with Aerith. Because he was afraid of ruining the happiness he had with Tifa and his family. He also left due to past failures and Geostigma. Hey, I'm just going by what Cloud himself said, and also, I believe I just answered the question as to why Cloud left.

True, except he was also growing distant from Tifa before he contracted Geostigma, before his life got miserable. CoT, Tifa is happy Cloud is opening his horizons and is doing something he likes. Even when happy, Cloud's life leads him away from Tifa. And yes, as he contracts Geostigma and falls into his depression, he grows even more distant.

I wonder if Aerith has any quotes like that?
Well I'll have to check the other FF7 works to see abotu that in the morning, but I did see this while I had my Reunion File scans open. Tifa is by Cloud's side? Well:

"I tried to create an atmosphere in which she (Aerith) still seems to be by his side - in spirit, at least" - Nojima

I think I covered this before, but Aerith and Tifa are stated to both have Motherly feelings- which are both very different. Aerith is a Mother to those who are pained and confused (Including Cloud), also, to the entire planet. Tifa is the Mother of Cloud's family.
Interpretation. Again, RF - "Like Aerith she also has a maternal side to her, but in a different sense. Not only was she looking after Marlene and Denzel, but she also felt a certain maternal bond to Cloud, who is a "big kid" himself in some aspects"

And CoT - the scene where Tifa thinks of her motherly feelings towards Cloud compares him to a child two or three times within a relatively small piece.

I'd say ask RyuRyu or Hito... or can someone else step in? x'D It's been told to me before, but I'm not going to screw myself over by guessing the timeline. They're the ones who know all about the calender and all that jazz. *I think* It was about two weeks, three at most.
I checked the timeline hosted here, unfortunately it doesn't give specific dates for any of the movie events, if they can provide them that'd be nice.

She is called a koibito afterall.

Yeah, I noticed something interesting about that - that ain't the full quotation.

"She's like a mother, a sweetheart (koibito), and a close ally in battle".

If the koibito comment is meant to refer to her relationship with Cloud, doesn't that also mean the "like a mother" bit does too? See above points.

That reminds me! Wasn't Tifa described as a catalyst?

I can't recall that exact quote, but I do remember Cloud and Aerith being described as "setting each other's destiny in motion" in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania. But that aside, what's the context of that quote, she's a catalyst for what?

Anyway, I'll be back tomorrow, but honestly it's past 3 am here. G'night for now.
 

Vendel

Banned
- Again, if Cloud wants to start a new life with Tifa, why does he leave her? Nomura herself says "she's like any woman who's been left behind by a man". And yeah, Cloud did leave her.


This one bugs me. As off DoC time line Cloud and Tifa have been together for the better part of three years. He left for a short time before AC but he worked through his issues (with a kick in the ass from Tifa).

Yes Cloud left. But that is what AC is about. It's the resolution to his personal demons. After that nothing is holding him back.

DrakeClawfang said:
True, except he was also growing distant from Tifa before he contracted Geostigma, before his life got miserable. CoT, Tifa is happy Cloud is opening his horizons and is doing something he likes. Even when happy, Cloud's life leads him away from Tifa. And yes, as he contracts Geostigma and falls into his depression, he grows even more distant.

Did we read two diffrent CoT? Cloud has issues. Hell so does Tifa. They really don't know how to handle being young parents or having a normal life for the first time. But they work through these issues. Then Ole Den comes along and Cloud finally starts to act like a real father.
This also drives him to find a cure for his new son. But when he gets the geostigma....well his brain attacks him again (figuritivly speaking).
 
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She's like a mother, she's an ally, and she's a koibito. Tifa can't be all that in a vacuum; nor does it necessarily mean she is all three to one particular person. But she is koibito nevertheless. Who is she a koibito to? What says you? :)
 

Isabella

Your Mom
That quote about Tifa being left by a man is evidence they were in a relationship. You can't be left by a man if you weren't with that man to begin with. No one is claiming their relationship was healthy. It wasn't. They both are a bit messed up, and neither has any experience with romantic relationships.

But I'm not here to argue they're the model for domestic bliss. My argument is a) that the intent to begin a romantic relationship was there, on both their parts, and b) that their separation had nothing to do with the way they felt about each other.

Tifa is like a mother to the children, she's a koibito to Cloud, she's an ally to Avalanche. It shouldn't be hard to connect the dots.
 

Celes Chere

Banned
AKA
Noctis
True, except he was also growing distant from Tifa before he contracted Geostigma, before his life got miserable. CoT, Tifa is happy Cloud is opening his horizons and is doing something he likes. Even when happy, Cloud's life leads him away from Tifa. And yes, as he contracts Geostigma and falls into his depression, he grows even more distant.

Are you ignoring the end of CoT, when they're both happy together? Are you saying that couples will never have their disagreements? A quote from the RF states that because Cloud and Tifa have rough times and get through them, it draws them closer together. I could fish out that quote, if you'd like.

"I tried to create an atmosphere in which she (Aerith) still seems to be by his side - in spirit, at least" - Nojima

I'd really like to see quotes of Aerith understanding Cloud. =) Also, of course Aerith is still by his side. It's not like Cloud is just going to forget all about her.

Interpretation. Again, RF - "Like Aerith she also has a maternal side to her, but in a different sense. Not only was she looking after Marlene and Denzel, but she also felt a certain maternal bond to Cloud, who is a "big kid" himself in some aspects"

No, it's not. It's quoted in the Ultimania that Aerith is a Mother to those who are pained and confused (with a picture of she and Cloud in the flowerfields), and also a Mother to the planet. As for Tifa, it's said that Cloud is her ideal love, not her son. Just because she's helping Cloud through things and she feels some new Motherly feelings, doesn't literally mean she's his Mother. The quote about her loving him kind of proves that.

Also, who did Cloud call Mother again? :awesome:

I can't recall that exact quote, but I do remember Cloud and Aerith being described as "setting each other's destiny in motion" in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania. But that aside, what's the context of that quote, she's a catalyst for what?

They were talking about the beginning of the game, there. Of course they set the wheels of destiny in motion- that relates to the plot, not Clerith wub. I'll nab the quote to get the exact wording and edit, if no-one posts it by then. Also, goodnight. :glomp:
 

Edley

Pray for Sound
AKA
Issac Dian, Dudley, Chev Chelios
I like this guy, he makes good points.

Or was that at the second part of my comment about him leaving? I think Cloud grew distant because as Tifa herself suspects, the family he had with her and Marlene wasn't enough for him. Cloud just had to go off and deal with some stuff on his own. I understand that. I mean, I'm no expert on relationships but I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that sometimes you have to handle things on your own. And sometimes, it's not that you have to, you just want to. Ultimately though, I suspect only Cloud knows the real reason why he kept leaving.

My turn - how do you interpret Cloud moving into and living in Aerith's church after he leaves?

OOH! I'll jump in. CoT covers this:

“Do you love me?”

Cloud woke up, a perplexed look on his face.

“Hey, Cloud. Do you love Marlene?”

"Yeah. But sometimes I don’t know how to approach her.”

“Even though we’ve been together for some time?”


Ever think they're talking about more than how Cloud feels about Marlene here?

“Maybe that just isn’t enough.”

“Even we aren’t enough for you?”

Cloud didn’t answer.

“Sorry for asking some strange things.”

“Don’t apologize. It’s my problem.”

And of course later on he starts talking about his problem being not being able to retrieve lost lives. The other part of the Cloud leaving equation is pretty well explained here:

I think a lot of people read the we aren't enough question and lack of answer as Cloud showing Guilt over Aerith/Zack>Tifa/Marlene/Denzel, but I'd suggest it's more his fear the tragedy of the former will repeat with the latter.

As far as going to live in the church? It's isolated and peaceful and in a macabre way probably suits Cloud as a decent place to die, as if him dying in her church will atone for "the sin" of letting Zack and Aerith die. I don't think anybody here's going to deny that Aerith profoundly affected Cloud's life in a very short time, but I think the supposition that he sees her as a lost love loses stream in the face of the rest of the compilation.
 

Vendel

Banned
My turn - how do you interpret Cloud moving into and living in Aerith's church after he leaves?

This is another thing. We don't have to interpret it. We are told specifically why he leaves.

If you choose to ignore that. Or not ignoring it then trying to find some hidden meaning then you are missing the point.

It's another one of those "canon" issues. You can tell yourself he leaves his family because he doesn't love them (or Tifa specifically) all you want. But it's completely false.
 

Ⓐaron

Factiō Rēpūblicāna dēlenda est.
AKA
The Man, V
Honestly, someone less lazy than I am should make a LTD FAQ, because a lot of these issues seem to come up again and again.
 

Vendel

Banned
Honestly, someone less lazy than I am should make a LTD FAQ, because a lot of these issues seem to come up again and again.


Well if we want it to be completely unbiased then we need a Devo to do it. Because anything we do would be filled with rabid CloTiness.
 

Goodbye Charlie

Rising Chest-Bank Protestor
True, except he was also growing distant from Tifa before he contracted Geostigma, before his life got miserable. CoT, Tifa is happy Cloud is opening his horizons and is doing something he likes. Even when happy, Cloud's life leads him away from Tifa. And yes, as he contracts Geostigma and falls into his depression, he grows even more distant.

I think what I've always found shocking about this standpoint is that it utterly misses the whole point of AC. It's all about Cloud being lost to guilt - not geostigma. The geostigma gives his pain a nasty finality, but the whole thing is about how his past - his failures - have destroyed his present and future. He can't move on from the guilt of Zack AND Aeris. Now think about it from a writer's perspective: if you wanted to convey his guilt as the loss of a romantic someone, you don't compile Zack into the equation. There was no need. Aside from an optional flashback, Cloud has no connection to Zack in the game.

In fact he has more connection to his mommie who dies equally tragically, yet Zack is included. Now part of this is to set up Zack's relevance in the Compilation, but my point is you don't invest the audience with a romantic subtext by putting a third party in there - one who happens to be the dead girl's ex. Three's a crowd? So immediately the story is TELLING you that whatever pain Cloud feels for Aeris, the film is not setting it up as a romantic pang, it's en par with the pain he feels for Zack.

That's the other reason why we have the wolf/guilt symbolism - it unites the two aspects of guilt rather than letting one be spun in a different way to the other (for instance, if you wanted to imply his loss for Aeris is greater than his lost for Zack). They are both applied with the same iconography,

In the end, whether you feel Cloud felt more for Aeris or Zack, the author is telling you his pain is the same for both - the pain represented by the wolf - it's guilt. And that guilt from his past is paralysing him from being happy with his present, so much so he doesn't feel worthy of the happiness he finds in CoT. AC opens with his present fractured and Cloud at an all time low. It's a common cinematic device.

"I tried to create an atmosphere in which she (Aerith) still seems to be by his side - in spirit, at least" - Nojima

Again, the statement doesn't suggest love, it suggests a deep bond. By this logic I guess Lucas wanted to imply Obi-Wan's connection with Luke, always watching over him, caring for his protege implies romance. Personally, don't think it implies Luke wants to have a moment in a flowerfield with his old master in Empire Strikes Back. His koibito is clearly Leia.

Moving on.

Interpretation. Again, RF - "Like Aerith she also has a maternal side to her, but in a different sense. Not only was she looking after Marlene and Denzel, but she also felt a certain maternal bond to Cloud, who is a "big kid" himself in some aspects"

And CoT - the scene where Tifa thinks of her motherly feelings towards Cloud compares him to a child two or three times within a relatively small piece.

Doesn't mean anything. Aeris is a maternal character, very much symbolising Mother Earth in the film. In CoT it shows Tifa doting over Cloud feeling loving and protective over him like a mother - which from my experience, many girls do, and Tifa is a very motherly character. Doesn't infer interpretation - unless the writers have to start working out of lists of adjectives they can't use in case people feel that it's going to immediately allude proof to certain pairings.

Bottomline, is what you're doing is what the Clerith ideology always does - takes out random snippets of "interpretation" and ignores the WHOLE theme of either the film, game, or compilation. You can take the elements I explained about Tifa and apply them to FF7, CC, DOC, AC, COT, COB and they all make sense. There is a consistency. Your points might have some interpretation stretch on their own, but make no sense in the wider picture. And of course ignore possibly the biggest issue - how Cloud, awakened to his true self in the lifestream goes straight to Tifa after the FF7 battle two acts later and asks her to live with him, fulfilling his Tifa focus back in Nibelheim as a kid, fulfilling his expression under the Highwind.. that to me, beyond Koibito, the setup in AC, the comments in COT, COB, LO, CC really kills Cleris. So soon after the death of your "love", you don't ask the other girl to live with you. Where's the grief? Notice Tifa doesn't say no, fearing she's stamping over the relationship of Cloud and her dead best friend? Is that because she's callous? No, because there was no romance there. Again, it just all flows.

I checked the timeline hosted here, unfortunately it doesn't give specific dates for any of the movie events, if they can provide them that'd be nice.

Common sense tells you it isn't long. Tifa wouldn't be asking "where are you" and taking messages if it had been months. People don't work like that.
 

Fighter

Pro Adventurer
- Again, if Cloud wants to start a new life with Tifa, why does he leave her? Nomura herself says "she's like any woman who's been left behind by a man". And yeah, Cloud did leave her.

"The happier Cloud is the lonlier he becomes" ~ Nojima

"Cloud eventually distances himself from her (Tifa) because he is afraid to loose what he has." ~ Nojima

"The happier he realizes he is living with Tifa and the kids the more he is afraid to loose that and regrets towards the past trouble Cloud." ~Ultimania

1. His distant behavior is directly linked to his happiness, not the other way around. So we can right here throw away the theory that they weren't enough for him. In fact he obviously thinks they were too much.

2. This is so quintessential Cloud starting right up from childhood. He thought he wasn't good enough, so he left his village to prove himself. At the beginning of the game he thought he wasn't good enough, so his mind created another personality to hide his own. After the game he thinks he isn't good enough, in his own words he can't save anyone and is afraid history will repeat itself. He broods in solitude because he doubts himself and when he does he doesn't want anyone else to see him that way just like always, he leaves to
as we are now told help save Denzel and thus also prove his worth.

"she's like any woman who's been left behind by a man" - Well exactly. To be left behind by a man you first need to be with that man.
 

Lily Ella

Pro Adventurer
Honestly, someone less lazy than I am should make a LTD FAQ, because a lot of these issues seem to come up again and again.
Pointless, since some people will ignore it. You can point to it, and the person will read it, but... they'll probably come right back in here and say that the FAQ is BS, biased, etc, etc.

If someone asked me about the LTD, I'd hand them a copy of the game, the movie... and maybe the link to the Ultimania translations. Oh, and I'd also tell them to remember to have their common sense.

how do you interpret Cloud moving into and living in Aerith's church after he leaves?
After leaving home, he runs off to the closest place. A place of familiarity (to him, but mainly to us, the viewers) and comfort, as it hold some kind of warmth and ~maternal essence~... it's sanctuary of sorts.

Plus, it fits in great with the plot. :D

His distant behavior is directly linked to his happiness, not the other way around.
Word. He had too much of a good thing. He thinks that he doesn't deseve it. He's afraid that he'll lose it all. He got scared. He ran. He probably thought that it was a good idea at the time. He never was the brightest crayon in the box...
 
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Ⓐaron

Factiō Rēpūblicāna dēlenda est.
AKA
The Man, V
Pointless, since some people will ignore it. You can point to it, and the person will read it, but... they'll probably come right back in here and say that the FAQ is BS, biased, etc, etc.
True enough, but if nothing else it'd be a time-saver for people here since we could just refer to that for links to the appropriate interviews/quotes from the games. Unless they're going to state that the creators themselves are biased clotis, which, well, if they do, there's pretty much no hope :awesome:
 

Lily Ella

Pro Adventurer
Unless they're going to state that the creators themselves are biased clotis, which, well, if they do, there's pretty much no hope :awesome:
I think that Nojima was called a biased Cloti. However, apparently, he is now loved and awesome after he wrote "Case of Lifestream" -- and just why they think he's so much more awesome than before because of that, I don't quite understand. I don't understand a lot of things, actually.
 

Vendel

Banned
Unless they're going to state that the creators themselves are biased clotis, which, well, if they do, there's pretty much no hope :awesome:


I have said it before. But they could have Cloud and Tifa married and her expecting in a future installment and they would find someway to get around it.

(He closed his eyes and thought of Aerith BTW)
 
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