The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[Fighter]

This first sentence here is something that immediately caught my eye. Because that proves my overall stance on the LT.

Evidence for *both* pairings is left up to interpretation. Both pairings have evidence for and against them. So why does one pairing have to be right and the other pairing have to be wrong? I support Clerith but IMO SE hasn't and probably has no intention of ever stating outright who Cloud loves. They just give us statements and such that we can interpret and discuss amongst ourselves, leading to circular debates like this.

Because there are things that are not up to interpretation. Like Cloud and Tifa's mutual feelings being expressed in a risqué scene. Like being told that Cloud had a crush on Tifa since childhood and that those feelings are confirmed under the Highwind and that those feelings lead to them living together in AC and DC.

Unless you choose to be incredibly anal about it there is nothing much to interpret around that.

 

[Zee]

And we're back in square one. If what you claim is true, then what about their feelings being revealed under the Highwind? Was that feelings of friendship? I'm sorry, but lol, they were already friends. A new friendship?

"No matter how close we were...we were far apart before this."

So even according to Tifa herself, they weren't as close as they'd claimed. It's the start of a relationship, plain and simple. CoT is the blossom of the romantic relationship between them (hence the lines about them being there for each other being "different" this time) and AC is the resolution to all the nagging doubts that prevented them from being together.

I just felt the need to point out the problem in saying the Highwind scene is more or less romantic than something else, since not everyone got the same dialouge.

 

[Fighter]

I just felt the need to point out the problem in saying the Highwind scene is more or less romantic than something else, since not everyone got the same dialouge.

This was true until they put the high affection version on the official timeline.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Cloud left in Case of Tifa because he was afraid of Denzel dying of Geostigma. He left to find a cure. Then while searching for said cure he got Geostigma, became depressed and was waiting to die because he lost hope. That's why he left, and it had nothing to do with Tifa.

 

[Eerie]

Yes, but according to SE, the high version is the one happening in their own storyline. As Fighter said, there's nothing left to interpretation when it comes to SE's words.

Edit: gah, outposted

 

[Danna]

Depending on the affection rate you get, Cloud's wooden through that scene too, which leads to Tifa being irritated the next morning rather than embarrassed.

Huh? I thought the only difference is only "Were you listening?" and "Were you watching?" However, no matter how you treat Tifa throughout the game, Cloud will still say these thing to Tifa.

Cloud
"What are you going to do, Tifa?"
(She turns to him)
Tifa
"Did you forget?"
"I'm... all alone. I don't have anywhere to go."
(The scene fades out, then in to show Cloud and Tifa on a grassy hill.
Tifa stands close to the camera, looking past the player. Cloud is behind
her, staring in another direction. The Highwind hovers above. The only
sound is that of the wind.)
Tifa
"Everyone's gone..."
Cloud
"Yeah, we don't have anywhere or anyone to go home to."
(She looks down.)
Tifa
"You're right..."
(A pause. She looks up and straightens her hair with one hand.)
Tifa
"But... I'm sure someday... they'll come back, don't you think?"
(He crosses his arms)
Cloud
"Hmm... I wonder...?"
"Everyone has an irreplaceable something they're holding on to..."
"But this time, our opponent..."
(A long pause. The sound of the wind fades. Tifa nods)
Tifa
"Hmm... But that's all right, even if no one comes back."
"As long as I'm with you... As long as you're by my side... I
won't give up even if I'm scared."
(He uncrosses his arms and looks at Tifa.)
Cloud
"...... Tifa......"
(She moves her arms behind her.)
Tifa
"No matter how close we are... We were far apart... before this."
"But when we were in the Lifestream surrounded by all those
screams of anguish, I thought I heard your voice..."
(She closes her eyes, crying softly. Her arms fall to her sides and she
bows her head.)
Tifa
"...sniff... you probably don't remember this..."
"But deep in my heart I heard you calling my name... Or at least
I thought I did..."
(Cloud looks away and puts a hand to his face)
Cloud
"Yeah... At that time I heard you calling me."
"You were calling me back in from the stream of consciousness in
the Lifestream."
(He lowers his hand. He nods)
Cloud
"After all, I promised. That if anything were to ever happen to
you, I would come to help."
(Tifa opens her eyes and looks up.)
Tifa
"Cloud...? Do you think the stars can hear us?"
(She gazes off to one side)
Tifa
"Do you think they see how hard we're fighting for them?"
(Cloud looks up at the sky.)
Cloud
"I dunno... But..."
"Whether they are or not, we still have to do what we can. And
believe in ourselves..."
"Someday we'll find the answer. Right, Tifa?"
"That's what I learned from you when I was in the Lifestream."
(She nods)
Tifa
"Yeah...... that's right..."
(Cloud stares off into the distance. He turns away from her slightly and
lowers his head.)
Cloud
"Hey, Tifa...... I...... There are a lot of things I wanted to
talk to you about."
(He shakes his head slowly.)
Cloud
"But now that we're together like this, I don't know what I
really wanted to say..."
"I guess nothing's changed at all... Kind of makes you want to
laugh..."
(Tifa shakes her head)
Tifa
"Cloud... Words aren't the only thing that tell people what
you're thinking..."
(Cloud looks at her. She continues to stare past the player, into space.
She straightens her hair again with one hand.)
Cloud
"............"

Also

"It's true that sometimes I can't figure out who I am."
"There's a lot of things muddled up in my memories."
"But, Tifa......."
"But you said, 'Long time no see, Cloud' right?"
"Those words will always support me."
"I am the one you grew up with. I'm Cloud of Nibelheim."
"No matter how much I lose faith in myself, that is the truth."
"That's why you shouldn't be so scared."
"No matter what anyone else says to me, it's your attitude that
counts..."

 

[Fighter]

Yes, but according to SE, the high version is the one happening in their own storyline. As Fighter said, there's nothing left to interpretation when it comes to SE's words.

Edit: gah, outposted

Honestly I think you can interpret various degrees of affection Cloud has for both girls during the first part of the game especially given that you actually have choice. But the HA Highwind scene IS a romantic resolution.

 

[Zee]

Whoa hello there wall of quoted text.

Huh? I thought the only difference is only "Were you listening?" and "Were you watching?" However, no matter how you treat Tifa throughout the game, Cloud will still say these thing to Tifa.

There are a few more differences, iirc the jist of it is a lot of the lines where he's encouraging Tifa's feelings are cut, like the line about learning from her in the lifestream.

This was true until they put the high affection version on the official timeline.

lol okay guys way to miss the point.

 

[Fighter]

Forgive my inattentiveness then.

 

[Eerie]

Why is it? I mean, it's the canon version they use for all the stuff based on FF7. If they say that the high version is the one, then, it's what happened, no matter of how you played.

Once again, it's all about author's intent ~___~ What the author intents still prevails in the end.

 

[Zee]

My point was that the person was making a point based mostly on opinion, saying that one scene was more romantic than another. Despite what's in the sacred timeline, a person playing the game may have gotten a different experience and therefore not have automatically come to the conclusion it was more or less romantic than something else.

 

[Danna]

Whoa hello there wall of quoted text.



There are a few more differences, iirc the jist of it is a lot of the lines where he's encouraging Tifa's feelings are cut, like the line about learning from her in the lifestream.



lol okay guys way to miss the point.

Even so, Cloud still said a lot of romantic things to Tifa It might be less romantic, but they still shared their mutual feeling in that scene. That's my important point.

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

Alright, I'm behind, gotta re-start somewhere.

I'm going to sound a real ass, but you've restart around about 18 months ago. This was debunked fully so many times. So in fact, I'm going to try a different tact that simply knock down each of these archaic points like a row of worn skittles.

I know this will sound strange, but I really would like SE to spell it out for us if Cloud *does* love Tifa. They've had no problems with other couples - Cecil and Rosa marry, Wakka and Lulu marry, Laguna and Raine were married, Yuna and Tidus kiss, Squall and Rinoa kiss, Ashe and Rassler were married, and Zidane.....well, enough said really, it's Zidane.

Dude, the guy has lived in a family for two years with Tifa, after romantically asking her to live with him, having rediscovered their feelings under the Highwind based on a promise he'd hold close to his heart when he went off to Shinra to impress her. We don't even have to go koibito to see the narrative logic there. (May I also point out that that WHOLE paragraph was made of evidence substantiated points, either from text, dialogue or official companions).

I think really it should be turned on its head - and work on your premise: Tifa is Cloud's friend, nothing more, because his heart belongs to Aeris - so why does SE confuse this simply idea by have him live with the OTHER girl who fancies him, raising a family with her, asking her to live with him (with a little blush, let's not forget) - and as soon as they get a moments piece after the final battle? Where's the time for grief? How confusing is it for us fans who clearly know he's into Aeris, and sad at her death to have him go and ask the romantic rival to come live with him and raise a few kids like a family? Doesn't make sense!!!!!

See what I mean? That's why I think your interpretation is just fantasy - as fun as it is, it's no different to Clack or anything shipping piece of fun. It doesn't make sense within the story-sphere.

 

[Fighter]

My point was that the person was making a point based mostly on opinion, saying that one scene was more romantic than another. Despite what's in the sacred timeline, a person playing the game may have gotten a different experience and therefore not have automatically come to the conclusion it was more or less romantic than something else.

Based on the game alone sure. Though you might get an argument there. You could also never see Vincent or Yuffie for that matter.

 

[Danna]

My point was that the person was making a point based mostly on opinion, saying that one scene was more romantic than another. Despite what's in the sacred timeline, a person playing the game may have gotten a different experience and therefore not have automatically come to the conclusion it was more or less romantic than something else.

I was making a point that I found the scene of two persons sharing their mutual feeling together on the night that it could be the last night they have together is more romantic than the scene that the girl told the guy how similar he is to her first love and told him she want to know the real him but the guy just barely talked anything. I guess this is probably only based on my biased opinion xD

 

[Strangelove]

Cloud: But I'm...... we're here for you, right?
Aerith: I know. I know, but... I am the only...... Cetra.
Cloud: Does that mean we can't help?

Tifa: “Even though you’ve been together this long?”
Cloud: “I’m not sure that’s enough.”
Tifa: “Same with you and me?”

They both follow a similar pattern (statement that the speaker is with them, rebuttal of that, and a question met with silence), at least to me. So can't the Aerith quote be taken to mean that she doesn't think Cloud is enough? Why, when Cloud says it, it means that they can't have a proper relationship, but it doesn't with Aerith? She could have let him in and had a romantic moment which brought them together, but she shuts him out.

People seem to look to CoT to prove that everything between Cloud and Tifa to be all puppies and roses, otherwise they're no possible chance for them, which to me seems like a narrow view of things. This is fiction, it usually involves conflicts. Even romance fiction. Not to mention that CoT is half a story, the other half being AC. Of course it can't end well, it has to end at the lowest point so none of that build-up gets in the way of AC's fight scenes.

They're not a "couple", they're goddamn lifestream goo that's gonna dissolve.

ilu.

CoT is the blossom of the romantic relationship between them (hence the lines about them being there for each other being "different" this time) and AC is the resolution to all the nagging doubts that prevented them from being together.

But please stop stealing my thoughts.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Y'know, if folks are gonna insist on 'direct proof' that Cloud loves Tifa, then can we also get the same for Locke/Celes, Cid/Sier Squall/Rinoa, Zid/Gar, Stein/Bea, Tid/Yun and Van/Pen, to name a few? Because Cloud and Tifa have 'progressed' further than all of those couples. They cohabitate, act as parents to children, they have expressed their mutual feelings for each other, their hearts called out to each other, Cloud opened his heart only to Tifa, etc. etc. etc.

That's more than all those characters have. Several pairings are 'more advanced' than C/T, but the only real distinction is that they are actually married, instead of married in the common law as C/T.

I include Cid/Sher on that list of not actually married because the line implying their marriage was apparently a bork translation.

Though speaking of Cids, if Cloud leaving for a time is evidence that a relationship is doomed, what then to we make of Cid Kramer and Edea, or Fabool and Hildegarde? Surely, their time apart dooms them too, especially Hildegarde's leaving.

Addendum: I also ask of those same people, in general, why they do not need this official declaration not just for other pairings when they demand it for C/T, but why also they don't seem to need it for C/A, either. Not anyone in this thread AFAIK, but I have seen folks require the equivalent of a signed in triplicate wax sealed document for C/T, but declare C/A canonicity based on the equivalent of a back of the napkin IOU.

 

[Strangelove]

I include Cid/Sher on that list of not actually married because the line implying their marriage was apparently a bork translation.

Not really, a guy in the Sierra engine room says that the ship is named after Cid's wife even in the Japanese one. (Assuming that is the line in question.)

 

[Ryushikaze]

I thought Cid had a line about not actually taking the final step and marrying her in the JP one? When he tells Vin she's worried about him.

Or am I mistaken? If so, I'll relegate Cid back into the long line of married Cids.

 

[Strangelove]

I played through it a couple of weeks ago, and don't remember anything like that.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Fair enough, though I vaguely recall seeing a screenshot and a quote somewhere around here awhile back.
In any case, my point about all the other unmarried couples still stands.

 

[Celes Chere]

Just wondering, what are the popular Clerith quotes? Cloti has a ton of quotes, but the only quote I ever see the Clerith side really using is the "I'm... I mean, we're here for you." line. Are there any others? I'm talking about just FFVII too, not AC/ACC/RF/Ultimania's. I think that Cloud and Tifa have a ton of meaningful lines in just FFVII alone, so I'm wondering what the Clerith ones are.

A few CT quotes I'm thinking of are...

Spoiler

Tifa
"Cloud..."

Cloud
"Why are you so scared? Don't worry about me. I'm all right."
"No matter how confused I am, I'll never believe a word that Sephiroth says."
"It's true that sometimes I can't figure out who I am."
"There's a lot of things muddled up in my memories."
"But, Tifa......."
"But you said, 'Long time no see, Cloud' right?"
"Those words will always support me."
"I am the one you grew up with. I'm Cloud of Nibelheim."
"No matter how much I lose faith in myself, that is the truth."
"That's why you shouldn't be so scared."
"No matter what anyone else says to me, it's your attitude that counts..."

Tifa
"No, that's not true, Cloud......"

Cloud
"What's not? Aren't I the same Cloud you grew up with?"

Tifa
"That's not what I meant... I don't know how to say it..."
"Cloud, I need some time... Just give me a little time..."
---
Tifa: "Now that you mention it, why did you want to join SOLDIER in the first place."

Cloud: "......I was devastated. ......I wanted to be noticed. I thought if I got stronger I could get someone to notice."

Tifa: "Someone has to notice you...? ......who?"

Cloud: "Who.........? ......You know who! ......You, that's who."
---
Tifa
"Hmm... But that's all right, even if no one comes back."
"As long as I'm with you... As long as you're by my side... I won't give up even if I'm scared."


Cloud
"...... Tifa......"



Tifa
"No matter how close we are... We were far apart... before this."
"But when we were in the Lifestream surrounded by all those screams of anguish, I thought I heard your voice..."


Tifa
"...sniff... you probably don't remember this..."
"But deep in my heart I heard you calling my name... Or at least I thought I did..."


Cloud
"Yeah... At that time I heard you calling me."
---
Tifa: " Words arent the only thing that tell people what you are thinking"
---
Cloud:"Give me back my hometown, my mother, Tifa".
---
Cloud: Thanks everyone. Especially you, Tifa. You've been so kind to me... I don't know what to say.
---
Tifa "...It was so sudden. I was a bit... surprised."
"But..."
"It's true we weren't THAT close, but..."
"After you left town, I really thought about you a lot."
"I used to wonder how Cloud was doing."
"I wondered if you were able to get into SOLDIER?"
"I started reading the newspapers, thinking I might see an article about you."
Cloud #4 "Thanks, Tifa."
"Tell him what you told me, later. He'll probably be so happy."
---

^Can anything beat that? O_o

Locke/Celes

The ultimate pairing. Not even CT beats it~

he reached for Aerith in the lifestream nor in the Bahamut scene.

How are those scenes romantic, might I also ask? ^^;

 

[null.]

Biggest point is that Cloud wasn't ZaCloud when he reached for Aerith in the lifestream nor in the Bahamut scene.

I think you're reaching a bit here.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I have friends who ship Locke/Terra, but that doesn't make it anymore canon than Locke/Celes. (I really need to play FFVI, cos I have no idea what goes on between either couple, tbh. ) Some people prefer Zidane and Eiko, but she's not the one he saves when Alexandria is falling to pieces. Some people prefer Yuna with Baralai, but it isn't his arms she runs into at the end of FFX-2. Cloud and Tifa are similar in that respect, because you can't NOT have the Lifestream sequence, you can't NOT have any Highwind scene and you can't NOT just have Cloud fall into the Lifestream to be with Aerith at the end of the game. These are unavoidable, much like Zidane's saving sequence, Yuna running to Tidus at the end of X-2, or the Revenant Wings hug.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I think you're reaching a bit here.

Especially since UO simply calls it 'the hand' and Maiden says Cloud's in la la land when he reaches for the hand that's Aerith leading him back to the real world and to Tifa, and the latter is part of the grand sequence of him being flung up to Bahamut, in which he actually gets a few moments looking straight and and smiling with Tifa.