The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[Celes Chere]

I have friends who ship Locke/Terra

Your friends are on crack. Good points though, Ninaki. The only scene I actually see that could be romantic towards CxA is probably when Aerith visits Cloud in his dreams. Not necessarily for what is said in it, but because of the atmosphere it gives off. Like Cloud running slow motion after her, and the fact that ::gasp:: it's not an optional scene. ^^; I would consider Cloud saying he felt Aerith in his soul as romantic, if he hadn't said that he could feel Sephiroth as well.

 

[paoo]

The thing I don't get is that many members here say there is no LT and that it's settled and Cloud clearly loves Tifa. If that's the case, why is there Clerith? If the Cloti is so obvious how is it some, including me, watched the movie and played the game and saw Clerith?

Well.. In the beginning of the game there is some Clerith hints.
And I guess some people falled for Clerith then. (Me, for example)
But then Aerith died, people got upset.. But they still loved Clerith and some started to "hate" Tifa just because she was interested in Cloud. <_<
And then in the game we found out later that Cloud was just acting like Zack, and that the real Cloud is the one that holds Tifa closest to his heart, (and then all the Cloti moments showed up later) But some Clerith's couldn't accept it, and continued to come up with stupid facts that totally didn't make any sense and etc.
And actually I think there was some Cloti hints in the beginning, but probably Clerith's saw them as one-sided. And still today.. some people can't accept that Cloud and Tifa is living together, realized their feelings for eachother, having their family, and so on.
Clerith = Aerith = one-sided love?

 

[null.]

The thing I don't get is that many members here say there is no LT and that it's settled and Cloud clearly loves Tifa. If that's the case, why is there Clerith? If the Cloti is so obvious how is it some, including me, watched the movie and played the game and saw Clerith?

That's like saying the existence of Christians implies God's existence.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well.. In the beginning of the game there is some Clerith hints.
And I guess some people falled for Clerith then. (Me, for example)
But then Aerith died, people got upset.. But they still loved Clerith and some started to "hate" Tifa just because she was interested in Cloud. <_<
And then in the game we found out later that Cloud was just acting like Zack, and that the real Cloud is the one that holds Tifa closest to his heart, (and then all the Cloti moments showed up later) But some Clerith's couldn't accept it, and continued to come up with stupid facts that totally didn't make any sense and etc.
And actually I think there was some Cloti hints in the beginning, but probably Clerith's saw them as one-sided. And still today.. some people can't accept that Cloud and Tifa is living together, realized their feelings for eachother, having their family, and so on.
Clerith = Aerith = one-sided love?

This brings up a very good point. FF7 is based around a plot twist. The first major chunk of the game is there to keep you in the dark, to keep you guessing, before the big reveal in the lifestream which is supposed to answer the questions. Everything we see before the lifestream sequence, is supposed to be first taken as one way, only to be seen again in a new light once we learn who Cloud really is. The game's plot is built around toying with the player, getting them confused, and then removing that confusion later on.

That's like saying the existence of Christians implies God's existence.

I've seen that argument used, Null.
When asked why the existence of Hindi didn't imply the existence of Ganesh, then, they essentially played the special pleading game.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Eh, just because there are fans of something in a work of fictions doesn't mean it legitimately or actually exists within the continuity of said work of fiction. People can choose to see what they want to see, or believe what they want to believe, even if it completely doesn't align with what the author's intent is.

 

[Isabella]

Some mindless rambling ...

So about the hand-reach thing. We see a feminine hand reaching for Cloud, there's no identifier on the hand (bangle or glove) but we assume it's Aerith because of pink swirlies and music, then bam, it's revealed to be Tifa's hand after all. The lit geek in me wants to call it symbolic of the LT subplot as a whole. /shrug

This brings up a very good point. FF7 is based around a plot twist. The first major chunk of the game is there to keep you in the dark, to keep you guessing, before the big reveal in the lifestream which is supposed to answer the questions. Everything we see before the lifestream sequence, is supposed to be first taken as one way, only to be seen again in a new light once we learn who Cloud really is. The game's plot is built around toying with the player, getting them confused, and then removing that confusion later on.

This. I'm always talking about this, and it seems like I always get brushed aside.

That's like saying the existence of Christians implies God's existence.

And what about those Harmonians we were talking about a few pages ago?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Some mindless rambling ...

So about the hand-reach thing. We see a feminine hand reaching for Cloud, there's no identifier on the hand (bangle or glove) but we assume it's Aerith because of pink swirlies and music, then bam, it's revealed to be Tifa's hand after all. The lit geek in me wants to call it symbolic of the LT subplot as a whole. /shrug

I believe I've called it 'one last middle finger to the people expecting Aerith to come back and be with Cloud' before.

This. I'm always talking about this, and it seems like I always get brushed aside.

Then again, doesn't most everything? I mean, RF, Ultis, everything gets brushed aside. I know I've had to quote to the same person MULTIPLE TIMES the Ulti quote that it is Cloud's happiness that causes his issues, and that the happier he becomes, etc.

And what about those Harmonians we were talking about a few pages ago?

Actually, there's a sublink from one of the links I think is quite appropriate.
http://wiki.fandomwank.com/index.php/The_Colbert_Report_on_Harmony

 

[paoo]

This brings up a very good point. FF7 is based around a plot twist.

SE wanted us to be confused.
And how confused was Cloud in the game before he became himself again? o_o Did he really think that he was Zack, or was he just acting until it became his reality? I got pretty damaged after CC.. Poor Cloud. *hugs him*

 

[Makoeyes987]

I definitely saw the hand reaching scene as more indicative of Cloud reaching out for Tifa since..it shows Tifa to be the one the hand belongs to. It definitely is a literary allusion to the plot twist of FFVII. And reinforces that Cloud and Tifa were really the ones connected all this time.

And again, cut the spam/chit chat here. Posts like those will be deleted. We seriously don't need to clutter up the thread and make posts any harder to find.

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

This brings up a very good point. FF7 is based around a plot twist. The first major chunk of the game is there to keep you in the dark, to keep you guessing, before the big reveal in the lifestream which is supposed to answer the questions. Everything we see before the lifestream sequence, is supposed to be first taken as one way, only to be seen again in a new light once we learn who Cloud really is. The game's plot is built around toying with the player, getting them confused, and then removing that confusion later on.

Is that your quote Bella? I've suddenly realised we have a similar writing style - and of course, you have a similar viewpoint. Dammit, Chabella is the new fantasy pairing. And given it seems you need utterly no romance to create one of these romantic shippings, I think its safe to say that our zero-chemistry and zero-flirtation must put us up there as one of the great shipping greats. Just below the pink ones.

On a more serious note, this point really is another area where the fantasy shipping gets in the way of common sense. Not only is narrative logic ignored for cherry picking cute scenes to equate as canon love, but the logic of the game infrastructure is equally ignored. This game toys with the player - the first disk isn't Cloud, it's faux Cloud, a creature made up of a little Cloud, a little Jenova, a little Zack, a whole load of Muddle and of course, the player. They inform this false personality and because the personality is false, it can do anything that isn't indicative of the character's true feelings.

Shortly before the mystery is revealed, we lose control of faux Cloud, in fact, one could argue after Aeris' death, the personality starts to fragment (or maybe augment) as the influence of Jenova strengthens and Cloud's resolve weakens. This is our first true Cloud story point, where the character the player has created, be he Cluffie, Clarrett, Cloti or Cleris makes no more difference - this is where the game takes over and the true reveal comes to bear.

So really, and we've said this 100 times, what you do on disk one, really is inconsequential. Sure Cloud is there - and we see moments of his true personality trying to break through but generally speaking I really don't put any real proofz on Cloud's intentions in this period. It's variable, and that's the clever merging of narrative and gameplay which when it comes to the hardcore shippers is forgotten in favour of proving what their heart's desire.

You want to say who Cloud likes? You should as Cloud's feelings are the heart of the debate - but you better stay clear of disk one and look at CC, AC, LO and the prologues. There are your clues.

 

[Isabella]

Actually Ryu wrote that quote. Ryulie?

But it's virtually identical to something I've said several times before. Heck, I've written long essays on this very topic, and I rarely write long posts on forums. I feel strongly about it, but I don't usually get a lot of feedback. I start to question my sanity sometimes. It's just so clear to me. So thank you for saying it's clear to you, too. I'm not alone in my delusional madness.

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

Actually Ryu wrote that quote. Ryulie?

But it's virtually identical to something I've said several times before. Heck, I've written long essays on this very topic, and I rarely write long posts on forums. I feel strongly about it, but I don't usually get a lot of feedback. I start to question my sanity sometimes. It's just so clear to me. So thank you for saying it's clear to you, too. I'm not alone in my delusional madness.

Ryulie? I can deal with that, I like Chabella more as it sounds like some sort of supporting alien from Space: 1999.

I think it's something we perhaps need to highlight more as a talking point in future.

 

[Isabella]

I seem to recall running into resistance from both sides of the debate on it. A few Clotis didn't like me suggesting that Cloud wasn't all about Tifa on disc one, IIRC.

I'm going to ship us too. Chabella. I think it'll become the new thing.

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

I seem to recall running into resistance from both sides of the debate on it. A few Clotis didn't like me suggesting that Cloud wasn't all about Tifa on disc one, IIRC.

I'm going to ship us too. Chabella. I think it'll become the new thing.

We could go on tour wowing everyone with our interpretative dance and Laurel & Hardy routine. We could make money from this LTD gig.

Yeah, I think this is an issue that really does show those Cloti who also have a slight emotional attachment - which is cool, as with Cleris, no problems with it. I think from a neutral perspective though, there is no doubt that neither Cloti or Cleris should be digging too deep into disk one.

 

[Eerie]

Well, to be fair, aside from amusement/lulz (such as saying Tifa is Cloud's gf), I can't hold any serious LTD arguments from disc one. I mean, how are we supposed to know that it's the real Cloud or not? That it's how he would have behaved if it was totally him in the first place?

The only interesting thing is that he changed to fit Tifa's memories, to fit that ideal that she had in mind. Was that a spur of the moment, Cloud trying to fit that ideal, or was that Jenova controling Cloud to make him fit her memories? Maybe a misture of both - I can't remember, was there any statement from SE regarding that matter?

I've stated it earlier - but to me, the Cloud from Disc one was pretty much blank when it came to love relationships - you could make him do anything, from insulting Aerith to ignore Tifa, be nice to both/one of them so it was more the player speaking than Cloud's personality there.
I know that when I play to save a world, I'm pretty much annoyed as anything going anf blatantly flirting with my character, so I wasn't too fond of Aerith and avoided her - that and I didn't want to train her for nothing too So I guess I was trying to ignore her most of the time - I was even annoyed that replying Tifa's your girlfriend didn't stop her - yeah yeah, I tried that for the lulz and in hope too.. XD
*isn't fond of the latest Zelda because it has romance in it too pfffft give me back Ocarina of Time plzzzzzzzz * /end of rant XD

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I agree with all Sans and Fighter said, so I won't go into a point-by-point response here. Just generally commenting.

And though I admit it's up to interpretation, I thought Aerith's date scene was more romantic than Tifa's.

Not so much.
I'm not going to argue what is romantic vs. non here, but I do have two things to add:

1. The theme playing through all 4 dates is Interrupted By Fireworks
2. Tifa is the only one interrupted/left something unsaid.

Out of all dates, she is the one Cloud keeps insisting on her finishing what she had to say, leaving the viewer with a clear sense of something missing. This is not up really up to interpretation and it is something that stands out once you look at all four at the same time.

If that's the case, why is there Clerith?

For the same reason there is Harmony? For the same reason some still believe Ultimecia = Rinoa?
Just because some people have an opinion or are convinced of something, doesn't mean it is so. And just because FFVII played with the idea of both girls, it doesn't mean both are loved by Cloud. The story shows a clear Cloud/Tifa focus.

Cloud: But I'm...... we're here for you, right?

This means what exactly?
Please let's look at something called context, because it doesn't bite.


Aeris comments on her being alone in the world, the last of her kind. And Cloud presumably means to say "I am here for you" before switching it to "we're here for you". It si clear from Aeris' words that he wants to show her that she is surrounded by people. Not just Cloud - not just some dude who is hired as her bodyguard and bound by duty (because he got her involved), but everyone.

You can keep saying "it's up to interpretation," but the line itself only takes a romantic tone if you remove it from the overall conversation, if you divorce it from context.

Also, if this is some decleration of romantic feelings, Aeris' response feels rather strange. She has been pursuing Cloud, so to reply with a mere "that's not what I mean" (paraphrasing here) dilutes whatever romantic tones the writer would have inserted. She goes on to say "I mean I'm the last Ancient," again a reference to her being alone despite beign surrounded by people.

That's the point of "WE'RE here for you" & "no I mean I'm last of my KIND"

Evidence for *both* pairings is left up to interpretation.

No, they don't for the same reasons Charlie mentioned.

They are not treated equally. Cloud never wants to start a new life with Aeris. At his lowest, when he is absolutely so broken that not even a Cetra can reach him, Cloud's heart calls out to Tifa. He is happy to know of Tifa's feelings for him, not Aeris'. It is Tifa's promise that's etched in his heart. It is Tifa he lives and starts a family with. It is Tifa's attitude that matters, no one else's. I'm not going to go through a huge list unless you really want one.

You'd ahve to show me how the Compilation supports Cloud/Aeris and places her on equal footing.

which leads to Tifa being irritated the next morning

Quotes and evidence, please & thank you.

It's the start of a relationship, plain and simple

A relationship. A close relationship? Plain and simple?
So Cloud and Tifa aren't even close friends, just acquiantances? Traveling fighters? Just some dude who had some promise etched in his heart for no reason?

Is that why he singles her out continuously, as opposed to his other not-as-close friends?
"only your attitude matters" "Especially you, Tifa" etc.

Is that why the promise with Tifa is a recurrent thing that keeps popping up?
Is that why when he is broken beyond repair his heart calls out to this one person he doesn't even feel closely related to?

Is that why he is happy to know of this girls' feelings for him? Just so he can start a "relationship" that's plain and simple? And even if we go along and humor that ridiculous notion for a second, after the Highwind scene, that relationship should have been formed - she did take a stroll through his head and found out he stalked her Edward-style. Why just go on stating the same thing again?

Also, Tifa says she's been with him before, implying there has been no change there. Why is it different now? Because now they are BEST BUDDIES as opposed to what? Somewhat buddies whose hearts just happen to call to each other? I'm just genuinely curious here.

 

[Celes Chere]

I thought Aerith's date scene was more romantic than Tifa's.

Aerith's date didn't seem more romantic to me at all. Tifa nearly confessed her love for Cloud, while Aerith kept telling Cloud she wanted to meet him, with Cloud going all "wtf" to what she was saying. I think her date makes more sense, since it hints that Cloud isn't himself, and that there is definitely something wrong with him. I didn't really see Cloud reacting much during their date, though. Not to mention you get some really mean options on Aerith's date, but on Tifa's there aren't any bad ones that I can recall. And like OWD said, Cloud actually bugs Tifa a bit... curious as to what she had to say before she got cut off.

Also, Tifa says she's been with him before, implying there has been no change there. Why is it different now? Because now they are BEST BUDDIES as opposed to what? Somewhat buddies whose hearts just happen to call to each other? I'm just genuinely curius here.

This. Also, during the Highwind scene (I don't believe the low affection scene cuts this out), Cloud states that he's still the same, nothing has changed since he was a kid. Interesting that he would say that to Tifa, and interesting that in the past he crushed on her.

 

[Strangelove]

I think you're reaching a bit here.

I see what you did there.

In other news, I think CC ruined hand reaching. Unless Angeal/Zack is what it was really all about. Exact same angle, flying down from the sky, a lot of romantic lighting. It's like they just switched characters.

I mean, Barret/Denzel wearing that ring means that Tifa wearing one is meaningless, doesn't it?

 

[null.]

Ryulie? I can deal with that, I like Chabella more as it sounds like some sort of supporting alien from Space: 1999.

Hey, I have the lot of y'all paired off already! Stop violating my personal canon.

*isn't fond of the latest Zelda because it has romance in it too pfffft give me back Ocarina of Time plzzzzzzzz * /end of rant XD

Well Link is post-pubescent now and girls are starting to notice him. He's a much more imperspicuous character than Cloud, and his mute interactions in TP make for a far more interesting and open-ended discussion IMO. It's interesting that the expected or implied romance between Link and Zelda has given way to a virtually professional relationship, but like CxA, that doesn't stop a determined shipper!

 

[Ryushikaze]

Hey, I have the lot of y'all paired off already! Stop violating my personal canon.

Oh, do tell.

Well Link is post-pubescent now and girls are starting to notice him. He's a much more imperspicuous character than Cloud, and his mute interactions in TP make for a far more interesting and open-ended discussion IMO. It's interesting that the expected or implied romance between Link and Zelda has given way to a virtually professional relationship, but like CxA, that doesn't stop a determined shipper!

Of course, there have actually been two or three Link/Zelda romances over the years, but far less than people would have you believe.

 

[Sunstrider]

As long as I get to play the field with Zee and OWD, I don't care who gets shipped with who.

I know I expected Link and Zelda to hook up when I first started playing the games because of the awesome cartoon from the '80s. Imagine my surprise when Link wasn't a hornball who was trying to make out with the princess every five seconds.

 

[Tennyo]

lawl I remember that show. It was so corny, and not true to LoZ at ALL.

Also as far as the games go I always thought people shipped Link with that girl from his home town or some other chic that's taller than him with dark hair whose name I can't remember.

 

[I Am Not Me]

Wait, what happened to the LTD?


I was ready to bring my Clotiness back here too.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

OMG Tesster is here
These will be epic times. Epic

 

[DrakeClawfang]

I always shipped LinkxMalon, though it was mostly just because I have a soft spot for redheads. :p