The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[crack]

Cloud's probably too dense to figure that out though.

 

[Zee]

So just wondering, from your view, did you find the scene with her death romantic? If you do, how so? If no... don't answer,

Uuhhm, I do think the intensity of his reaction speaks to how much she meant to him, but I don't think the scene itself is really...romantic. ;;

I would have viewed that it was Clerith as well, but the thing is, he's not actually Cloud throughout disk one. He's basically a fake.

Well if we go back to this argument, Cloud's never really a fake -- he just has several personalities pulling for attention. Aside from that, Cloud himself says a lot of it was due to him trying to keep up the facade - one that clearly breaks whenever pushed by Aeris or Tifa. Jenova cells make him weak and more susceptible to Zack's memories, but it's Cloud himself who wanted them.

Even putting aside romance for a moment, I think declaring Cloud a puppet stand in on disk one really cheapens a lot of the friendships and experiences he had. It wasn't Jenova or Zack or Sephiroth who stayed in Avalanche for Tifa, or stormed ShinRa for Aeris, or mourned the loss of his teammates. That was Cloud. If you think Aeris was significant to Cloud in any way - even as a friend, then you kind of have to accept she did see the real him.*

*Disclaimer, as always: no, I do not think Aeris ever got to see the whole of Cloud when she was alive - there wasn't enough time. But there was something she got through to that follows Cloud, otherwise I can't see why he would care so much that he failed her.

 

[Super Mario]

Cloud bagged Tifa. wanna know how and why? THEY'RE LIVING TOGETHER THAT'S WHY!

 

[mentaz]

After Maiden.

Now that explains better the inconsistency of the stuff there. Maybe that's why Aerith was being a little bitchy to Zack there, since the CC story wasn't out yet...I guess the dude who wrote Maiden didn't know the importance of the relationship between the two of them, I mean come on 89 FREAKING LETTERS.

sorry if this is not well explained, but I'm having an english block today.

I would have viewed that it was Clerith as well, but the thing is, he's not actually Cloud throughout disk one. He's basically a fake.

And it's up to the preferences of the player really.

 

[A]

Cloud bagged Tifa. wanna know how and why? THEY'RE LIVING TOGETHER THAT'S WHY!

Orite, Tifa lived with Barret. That means they totally shacked it up.

Uuhhm, I do think the intensity of his reaction speaks to how much she meant to him, but I don't think the scene itself is really...romantic. ;;

I agree, very much so.

*Disclaimer, as always: no, I do not think Aeris ever got to see the whole of Cloud when she was alive - there wasn't enough time. But there was something she got through to that follows Cloud, otherwise I can't see why he would care so much that he failed her.

Because she's a friend?

I guess I can agree on the part with Cloud not totally being a fake (although, I still find some problems with that. For example, Cloud was basically used in order to get closer to Aerith, who is a Cetra. Jenova cells have a tendency to do that, as stated in the Ultimania (pg. 15? 16), but Aerith doesn't know the real Cloud until she dies, but at least we know that she knows that he's not acting like the real Cloud - rather, like Zack, who she's flirting with the whole time.

 

[Vendel]

Well if we go back to this argument, Cloud's never really a fake -- he just has several personalities pulling for attention.

And guess which one we never see until the LS event? His real one.

Aside from that, Cloud himself says a lot of it was due to him trying to keep up the facade - one that clearly breaks whenever pushed by Aeris or Tifa. Jenova cells make him weak and more susceptible to Zack's memories, but it's Cloud himself who wanted them.

I'm sure if you asked Cloud after the LS event if he wanted to forget his feelings for Tifa he would say 'well of course that's what I wanted'?

Cloud keeps up the facade to keep from having a breakdown. Not because he likes having multiple personalities.

If you think Aeris was significant to Cloud in any way - even as a friend, then you kind of have to accept she did see the real him.*

Except we are told flat out several times she in fact does not know the real him.

 

[Zee]

And it's up to the preferences of the player really.

Most of the player choices are pretty insignificant no matter who you favor, though. There's other plot points on disk one for people to reference. :3

Because she's a friend?

Well, yeah, that was kinda my point lol. Friend or lover or what have you, if he cared about her than that does speak to the real Cloud.

Orite, Tifa lived with Barret. That means they totally shacked it up.

Is there gunarm!kink yet?

 

[A]

Well, yeah, that was kinda my point lol. Friend or lover or what have you, if he cared about her than that does speak to the real Cloud.

Oops, sorry.

And of course Cloud cares deeply about Aerith. It's pretty much obvious.

Is there gunarm!kink yet?

We're forgetting that Tifa also roomed with Aerith throughout their adventure. They must have totally done it. Not that I wouldn't mind.

 

[Death Sin]

No- Aerith told Cloud "Just like him" and then she says, "Didn't I tell you? My first love" I don't believe she ever used Zack's name. I'm sure Tifa doesn't know.

Wait... maybe she did say Zack's name. I remember Cloud saying "That's strange, I've never heard of him. Not many people make first class".

Bah, i'm just confusing myself now.

Nah, you're pretty much right. Aerith never mentions Zack's name on that scene. *nods*

Cloud and Aerith sat on the slide.

Aerith: What rank were you?

Cloud: Rank?

Aerith: You know, in SOLDIER.

Cloud: Oh, I was…

Suddenly, a flash appeared on the camera.

Cloud: First Class.

Aerith: Just the same as him.

Cloud: The same as who?

Aerith: My first boyfriend.

Cloud: You were…serious?

Aerith: No. But I liked him for a while.

Cloud: I probably knew him. What was his name?

Aerith: It doesn't really matter .

 

[A]

There's that, but then again, Aerith mentions several times that Cloud reminds her of someone (which is Zack). And then Cloud comes to the realization at the end of the game he's been acting like Zack the whole time - if Aerith was reminded of a SOLDIER, Cloud can figure from that Aerith dated Zack, because she said she dated a SOLDIER.

 

[Zee]

And guess which one we never see until the LS event? His real one.

Uhm, wrong, we see the real Cloud poke out several times on Disk One.

- Child!Cloud trying to prevent Aeris from being hurt.
- Optional, but Honeybee!Inn
- Through his dream, with the black & white flashes, trying to remember
- In his dreams remembering his mother

I'm sure if you asked Cloud after the LS event if he wanted to forget his feelings for Tifa he would say 'well of course that's what I wanted'?

Has nothing to do with wanting to forget his feelings for Tifa. Cloud did not want to be a failure, and he looked up to Zack as a symbol of a MAN'S MAN. Even Zack's last line, "You're the proof that I lived," pretty much gives the clear reason why Cloud's fractured mind ate up Zack.

Except we are told flat out several times she in fact does not know the real him.

Which is also why I said she did not know the *whole* of him.

We're also shown that Aeris is perceptive enough to discover the differences between what is Cloud's false persona, and that her special snowflake Cetra powers help her see to the truth of people. So she did get a glimpse, at least.

 

[Strangelove]

I had to get through pages of spam then drama. I don't like it.

I know it's all past now but I need some reason to use all these cat pictures. Let Kitty be a warning to ya'll. Don't get the longest running thread I've ever made get closed plz.

Wait... maybe she did say Zack's name. I remember Cloud saying "That's strange, I've never heard of him. Not many people make first class".

She'll mention it in Gongaga, so assuming Cloud isn't as thick as two short planks, by the time he's fixed he should have realised.

Ohwait I assumed too much.

But she mentions that Zack's the SOLDIER she mentioned before. As long as he remembers what happened, he should have realised.

You could assume Zack talked with Cloud about Aerith during the gaps in CC, but that would mean assuming stuff.

 

[A]

Which is also why I said she did not know the *whole* of him.

Well no. She thought she didn't even know who the real Cloud us, so that's just initiating that even if parts of Cloud were to be shown throughout the game, she wouldn't have thought that it was the real Cloud because of the fact that she had a desire to meet the real Cloud without ever meeting him, thinking he was Zack again. Although, she KNOWS that he's not acting like himself.

 

[Raquelborn]

I really don't see when Tifa may of found out/figured out Zack and Aerith dated because she only briefly meets Zack and she never discusses that kind of thing with Aerith. Although if Cloud does know she may of heard it from him.

As for Cloud knowing,

Spoiler

he placed Zack's sword in Aerith's church at the end of ACC

so he must have known that they were close if not in a relationship. Correct me if I'm wrong but why else would he do that? Surely otherwise he'd see them as separate people and

Spoiler

have left the sword where it was

.

Considering the above, Cloud sounds pro Zack and Aerith. I really doubt that once he got his identity he would of gone for his best friend's girl had she of lived. I believe even less that he continues to puruse Aerith for the same reason (on top of her being dead, he seems romantically interested in Tifa and he's living and raising kids with this other woman). He respects and admires Zack too much.

No- Aerith told Cloud "Just like him" and then she says, "Didn't I tell you? My first love" I don't believe she ever used Zack's name. I'm sure Tifa doesn't know.

Wait... maybe she did say Zack's name. I remember Cloud saying "That's strange, I've never heard of him. Not many people make first class".

Bah, i'm just confusing myself now.

I just did a search of the game script and he never says that. He asks Aerith who her first love was and then they see Tifa go past so he never hears it.

EDIT: Beaten by Death Sin!

 

[Death Sin]

There's that, but then again, Aerith mentions several times that Cloud reminds her of someone (which is Zack). And then Cloud comes to the realization at the end of the game he's been acting like Zack the whole time - if Aerith was reminded of a SOLDIER, Cloud can figure from that Aerith dated Zack, because she said she dated a SOLDIER.

It's a bit ambiguous but I think we can all agree that Cloud has it figured out by the end of AC/ACC (since he does see them both together and all). I mean, our spiky haired guy can be a bit slow but not that slow, right? <j/k>

I do believe that by the time Cloud regains his true self, he did become able to put the pieces together and figure things out but, again, that's mostly speculation and I don't believe is ever stated directly, so the best "official confirmation" might very well be AC/ACC. But, yeah, its easily debatable, IMO *nods*

EDIT: Beaten by Death Sin!

Harr Harr *flexes e-muscles* XD

 

[A]

It's a bit ambiguous but I think we can all agree that Cloud has it figured out by the end of AC/ACC (since he does see them both together and all). I mean, our spiky haired guy can be a bit slow but not that slow, right? <j/k>

I do believe that by the time Cloud regains his true self, he did become able to put the pieces together and figure things out but, again, that's mostly speculation and I don't believe is ever stated directly, so the best "official confirmation" might very well be AC/ACC. But, yeah, its easily debatable, IMO *nods*

True... now that brings us to the real question.

Did Tifa know?

Well, that answer has many options =/ Unless Cloud told her?

 

[Zee]

Well no. She thought she didn't even know who the real Cloud us, so that's just initiating that even if parts of Cloud were to be shown throughout the game, she wouldn't have thought that it was the real Cloud because of the fact that she had a desire to meet the real Cloud without ever meeting him, thinking he was Zack again. Although, she KNOWS that he's not acting like himself.

She doesn't just say that he isn't Zack, though, she also says he's a completely different person. If she is starting to separate the Zack from the Cloud, then she must have seen something in the real Cloud to start setting her off.

edit: if tifa knew about zerith: tifa and aeris spent a LOT of time together, chatting. in all that time, I would think Aeris dropped a few clues. And Tifa is not as dense as Cloud, sooo.

 

[A]

She doesn't just say that he isn't Zack, though, she also says he's a completely different person. If she is starting to separate the Zack from the Cloud, then she must have seen something in the real Cloud to start setting her off.

But how would she know who the Zack is from Cloud? Obviously they'd have some similar traits ; and that's not entirely true, she could have noticed just noticed similarities between Cloud and Zack, hence her setting Aerith off to start discussing to Cloud about how similar he was with her previous boyfriend.

 

[Vendel]

Uhm, wrong, we see the real Cloud poke out several times on Disk One.

- Child!Cloud trying to prevent Aeris from being hurt.
- Optional, but Honeybee!Inn
- Through his dream, with the black & white flashes, trying to remember
- In his dreams remembering his mother

The real Cloud pokes out several times. But as someone 'Cloud' doesn't know. And only in his own head. never to anyone else. 'Cloud' is mostly confused by these events. Or pained by them.

Has nothing to do with wanting to forget his feelings for Tifa. Cloud did not want to be a failure, and he looked up to Zack as a symbol of a MAN'S MAN. Even Zack's last line, "You're the proof that I lived," pretty much gives the clear reason why Cloud's fractured mind ate up Zack.

Of course it had nothing to do with jenova/sarcasm

Which is also why I said she did not know the *whole* of him.

Don't hit me with this bullshit this late in the afternoon.

We're also shown that Aeris is perceptive enough to discover the differences between what is Cloud's false persona, and that her special snowflake Cetra powers help her see to the truth of people. So she did get a glimpse, at least.

WRONG. She can only tell something is wrong. She does not in any way know the real Cloud.

 

[mentaz]

Did Tifa know?

Well, that answer has many options =/ Unless Cloud told her?

He probably told her after AC/C. We'll never know for sure.

 

[A]

He probably told her after AC/C. We'll never know for sure.

She would have been a Zerith supporter 100%.

 

[Zee]

The real Cloud pokes out several times. But as someone 'Cloud' doesn't know. And only in his own head. never to anyone else. 'Cloud' is mostly confused by these events. Or pained by them.

You said: Real!Cloud never shows up before the lifestream. I provided you with where he did. If you're going to backpedal, be upfront about it.

Of course it had nothing to do with jenova/sarcasm

how does i comprehend reading

Jenova cells make him weak and more susceptible to Zack's memories, but it's Cloud himself who wanted them.

-- my previous post

Don't hit me with this bullshit this late in the afternoon.

Look, I know you're next in line in "I'M A MOTHERFUCKING CLOTI WHO TAKES NO PRISONERS", but hit me with an actual rebuttal next time, please.

But how would she know who the Zack is from Cloud? Obviously they'd have some similar traits ; and that's not entirely true, she could have noticed just noticed similarities between Cloud and Zack, hence her setting Aerith off to start discussing to Cloud about how similar he was with her previous boyfriend.

She does say how similar they are, but then she goes on to say how they are two "completely different people". Then she goes on to say she wants to meet Cloud; imo, she saw a hint of who he really was and wanted to see more. Acknowledging they are different means she had to have seen something that was different.

Mainly my point is what is true for Cloud is true for Aeris, even in a friendship stand point. Since they obviously do care about each other as friends, then something real had to have gotten through, even if it was small.

 

[A]

She does say how similar they are, but then she goes on to say how they are two "completely different people". Then she goes on to say she wants to meet Cloud; imo, she saw a hint of who he really was and wanted to see more. Acknowledging they are different means she had to have seen something that was different.

Of course she wants to meet the real Cloud - but that's because she never actually got to meet the real Cloud. She knows that they're two completely different people, but how is it that Aerith is able to tell the difference between who's Cloud and who's Zack? She obviously can tell that he's not acting like himself, she just never had the chance to figure out who he actually was - Cloud says himself. That he was living in a disguise.

Mainly my point is what is true for Cloud is true for Aeris, even in a friendship stand point. Since they obviously do care about each other as friends, then something real had to have gotten through, even if it was small.

Well, yeah, that's my point too - even if there was a hint of the real Cloud, Aerith wouldn't have been able to tell, considering that she was comparing Zack to Cloud.

 

[Vendel]

You said: Real!Cloud never shows up before the lifestream. I provided you with where he did. If you're going to backpedal, be upfront about it.

The discussion is if Aerith knew the real Cloud. And the real Cloud never showed up to ANYONE. Only in his own head.

Jenova cells make him weak and more susceptible to Zack's memories, but it's Cloud himself who wanted them.

-- my previous post

Look, I know you're next in line in "I'M A MOTHERFUCKING CLOTI WHO TAKES NO PRISONERS", but hit me with an actual rebuttal next time, please.

Refer to my signature.

She does say how similar they are, but then she goes on to say how they are two "completely different people". Then she goes on to say she wants to meet Cloud; imo, she saw a hint of who he really was and wanted to see more. Acknowledging they are different means she had to have seen something that was different.

I don't care what you think she knew. It was stated in game and elsewhere she did not know the real Cloud. Only that he was not Zack. WELL SHIT how perceptive of her.

Mainly my point is what is true for Cloud is true for Aeris, even in a friendship stand point. Since they obviously do care about each other as friends, then something real had to have gotten through, even if it was small.

Guilt got through on Cloud's part.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I can only assume that quote is from the FFVII Ultimania Omega, but then the creators later clarify that it was Cloud's consciousness being controlled by the Jenova cells and that his persona was false.

So again, you're picking and choosing to use one quote from one source material that's older and has later been clarified and expanded upon in the latest book by the creators that talks about not just FFVII but the entire Compilation as a whole. That quote isn't the latest and most definitive statement on the matter.

And Vendel, seriously. Chill the fuck out. No need to tell her "F-you" dude. Be civil.