The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[Alex Strife]

Oh yeah, I was just bringing the point because I know a lot of Clerith/Cleris who bring that at some point. They go all like "why would Cait Sith say that?", so I give a reasonable explanation!

And, just in case, I want to clarify it's not meant to be an offense for any Clerith/Cleris around here.

 

[Zee]

lol, I thought that prediction was just supposed to be something like "Aw, how sweet" at the time and then "OMG CAIT SITH YOU BASTARD LIAR" later.

 

[A]

My problem with this is, it's one thing to say, "Hey you act a lot like this guy I once knew" and it's another thing to say, "Hey, you act a lot like this guy I knew, but I know you're both very different." Like you said, they probably did have a similarity or two. Heck, on disk 3, Cloud jokes and does squat thrusts which could be a very "Zack like" thing if we didn't know any better. The only way to truly start separating them, as Aeris was starting to, was to notice a significant difference.

But how do we know she could TELL the difference between Cloud and Zack when there's hardly any Cloud shown there? Even more so, if she could tell the difference, why would she bother with having a desire to meet the real Cloud in the first place, if she could already tell that she knew the real Cloud all along?

The assumption means that she doesn't know the real Cloud, and has a desire too - because she knows that a real Cloud is somewhere there, but she can't exactly pinpoint it, which is why she asks to meet the real Cloud.

It could be something small like Cloud's awkwardness (that gets exploited at every turn), but that is a portion of the real Cloud and that would be enough to justify her acknowledgment on the date.

If that is true, how is that supposed to be a good thing when it's so small? We both acknowledge that Cloud was acting like Zack and not himself the whole time, but does that mean Aerith liked those 'specific parts' of Cloud, or the parts of Zack? Considering how small the real Cloud came to show, it wouldn't be very healthy if Aerith fell lin love with a Cloud she hardly knew, but only came to realize that he showed himself hardly.

 

[Zee]

But how do we know she could TELL the difference between Cloud and Zack when there's hardly any Cloud shown there? Even more so, if she could tell the difference, why would she bother with having a desire to meet the real Cloud in the first place, if she could already tell that she knew the real Cloud all along?

Being able to tell the difference would be the first step. We already know she can tell the difference if she's saying there is one - as I pointed out, she wouldn't be justified in claiming there was a difference if she couldn't recognize one.

She's seen a glimpse of the real Cloud and wants to see the whole of him - hence "I want to meet you".

As for when exactly she saw this "real" Cloud, we could take several picks. Cloud's badass false persona tends to falter into awkwardness at times, and he drops it completely when one of his friends is in trouble.

If that is true, how is that supposed to be a good thing when it's so small? We both acknowledge that Cloud was acting like Zack and not himself the whole time, but does that mean Aerith liked those 'specific parts' of Cloud, or the parts of Zack? Considering how small the real Cloud came to show, it wouldn't be very healthy if Aerith fell lin love with a Cloud she hardly knew, but only came to realize that he showed himself hardly.

I used small for the sake of argument, but okay. On the date, Aeris is essentially saying she's seen the Zack parts and doesn't want them; we can therefore assume whatever she's seen of Cloud (big, small, what have you) she liked. She already knows Zack and what he's like, taking those pieces apart and looking for the real ones is slightly easier.

 

[Alex Strife]

Does Aeris really say she doesn't like the Zack she sees on Cloud? Omg.

 

[Zee]

Does Aeris really say she doesn't like the Zack she sees on Cloud? Omg.

....

I can't tell if this is a joke or not. D:

 

[A]

Being able to tell the difference would be the first step. We already know she can tell the difference if she's saying there is one - as I pointed out, she wouldn't be justified in claiming there was a difference if she couldn't recognize one.

Just because she pointed out that there was a difference between Zack and Cloud doesn't mean she knows who Cloud is. Being awfully similar to someone can lead to being able to tell that he's not acting like himself, thus being able to tell that there's a difference between them - just not knowing what it is.

She's seen a glimpse of the real Cloud and wants to see the whole of him - hence "I want to meet you".

No, she wants to 'meet Cloud,' because she never actually got to meet Cloud, but knows that there's a real Cloud, somewhere there.

And that brings me to my point - if she never knew the 'whole' Cloud, but tiny parts of him, wouldn't it still be unhealthy for Aerith to fall in love with someone she 'hardly' knew, because she didn't know the 'whole Cloud?'

As for when exactly she saw this "real" Cloud, we could take several picks. Cloud's badass false persona tends to falter into awkwardness at times, and he drops it completely when one of his friends is in trouble.

Right, but then again, you acknowledge that she never knew the real whole Cloud. Hypothetically, if that were to be true, then she's not loving the whole of Cloud, rather just a few parts of Cloud and the rest being the Zackified Cloud. That's not necessarily a love if you ask me.

I used small for the sake of argument, but okay. On the date, Aeris is essentially saying she's seen the Zack parts and doesn't want them; we can therefore assume whatever she's seen of Cloud (big, small, what have you) she liked. She already knows Zack and what he's like, taking those pieces apart and looking for the real ones is slightly easier.

No, we can assume that she can tell that he's acting like Zack and wants to get a chance to meet Cloud - again, why would she say she wants a desire to meet Cloud when if she already knows him? And if she does know 'some' parts of Cloud, then that would mean she was falling in love with most parts of Zack and a few parts of Cloud, thus not actually falling in love with Cloud because it was mostly Zack's persona of Cloud she was attracted to.

 

[crack]

I haven't seen two people debate about the LTD like this in so long. It's entertaining.

I DEMAND MOAR







*chews on popcorn silently*

 

[Zee]

I don't mean to ignore your first points, but I feel like if I respond to them we're just going to go into a circle.

Right, but then again, you acknowledge that she never knew the real whole Cloud. Hypothetically, if that were to be true, then she's not loving the whole of Cloud, rather just a few parts of Cloud and the rest being the Zackified Cloud. That's not necessarily a love if you ask me.

Again, with Clerith it's tricky; "love" is subjective. I think of it more like she was falling in love, but the relationship is cut short so quickly we never really get to see what it would have become.

No, we can assume that she can tell that he's acting like Zack and wants to get a chance to meet Cloud - again, why would she say she wants a desire to meet Cloud when if she already knows him? And if she does know 'some' parts of Cloud, then that would mean she was falling in love with most parts of Zack and a few parts of Cloud, thus not actually falling in love with Cloud because it was mostly Zack's persona of Cloud she was attracted to.

If she only knows a few pieces of him, that's different from knowing him when he's whole, so she would still want to "meet" him. Also, we know it's not the Zack persona she's attracted to/falling for if she's essentially rejecting it in favor of getting to know Cloud better.

fff okay, maybe one more reply, but then I gotta log off D:

 

[A]

I don't mean to ignore your first points, but I feel like if I respond to them we're just going to go into a never-ending circle.

S'okay, we're basically going around in circles... and people are starting to be entertained by us debating.

If she only knows a few pieces of him, that's different from knowing him when he's whole, so she would still want to "meet" him. Also, we know it's not the Zack persona she's attracted to/falling for if she's essentially rejecting it in favor of getting to know Cloud better.

fff okay, maybe one more reply, but then I gotta log off D:

She may be in favor of wanting to meet the real Cloud, but just because she wants it doesn't mean she gets in the end - she's killed before she gets a chance to meet Cloud, ergo meaning that she didn't get to know the real Cloud even though she desired to meet him.

 

[Alex Strife]

....

I can't tell if this is a joke or not. D:

It was a joke



Alright ladies and gentlemen, here I go, script again:

".........first off, it bothered me how you looked exactly alike."
"Two completely different people, but look exactly the same."
"The way you walk, gesture..."
"I think I must have seen him again, in you..."
"But you're different."
"Things are different..."
"Cloud..."
"I'm searching for you..."
"I want to meet you."

Cloud
"But I'm right here."

Aerith
(I know, I know... what I mean is...)
"I want to meet..... you."


I COULD be wrong, but does she say or imply she doesn't like the Zack she sees on Cloud? As far as I understand, she is bothered by it, the same way I'd be bothered if I saw a freaking lady who behaved and gestured just like my ex-gf. I would be scared like hell.



One situation I imagined:

Alex (me): Oh hey, Marie, you know what? I talked to your friend last day.
Marie: Who, Jane?
Alex: Yes! She's a nice girl. She's kind of similar to my ex-girlfriend, though.
Marie: Oh...
Alex: But I'm sure she's not like that. I want to meet her, the real her.
Marie: OMG!! You're in love with her!!


EDIT: all the names besides mine are made up, any ressemblance to reality is purely a coincidence.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Let's see, random reaction comments-
Clerith, or rather, the shell game of romance isn't just a red herring for C/T. It's a red herring for something that also serves as another red herring so the game can go 'We were playing Baccarat the entire time!'
It's not just about C/T, but also there to get you not knowing what the hell is going on with Cloud, to get you to start doubting everything, to be unsure. The later bits of disc 1 up till Cloud's revelation are this guessing game with false leads and impenetrable communication.

Aerith did not get to know Cloud before she died. She came to realize that he was not like Zack, that she was just seeing Zack in him yet again, and realized there was a real him behind that, but did not get to know.
With CC, the idea that she's unconsciously yearning for Zack while consciously trying to move on crystalizes.

Tifa probably figured out Z/A. Zack definitely knows, especially with the post credit sequence's symbolism.

Vendel, reign it in. You're taking it places you really ought not to.

 

[A]

"I'm searching for you..."

I'm searching for you - she wants to meet the real Cloud, but does she actually ever get to meet the real Cloud? No, because she gets killed before she finds out. And even if she discovered a few parts of Cloud, that wouldn't be enough to initiate it as a love or feelings because most of those parts were Zack himself.

 

[Zee]

She may be in favor of wanting to meet the real Cloud, but just because she wants it doesn't mean she gets in the end - she's killed before she gets a chance to meet Cloud, ergo meaning that she didn't get to know the real Cloud even though she desired to meet him.

I do agree, I think she's only left with fragments before she truly meets him. 'Course it's up to speculation how much of Cloud she sees post-death, especially discounting Maiden, but it doesn't really matter at that point. )8

@Alex: I don't think she dislikes Zack, but it's simply not what she wants anymore.


Okay, on that note, I gotta head off. I'll be gone for the weekend, but I hope some more talk gets going. Thanks for the discussion, A! =)

 

[Vendel]

@Alex: I don't think she dislikes Zack, but it's simply not what she wants anymore.

Just ignore everything that tells you she was attracted to Cloud because of Zack.


And ignore CC completely.

 

[Alex Strife]

So not thanking me, huh? Alright, now I got angry! Humph!

Have fun for the weekend!


I think she does want Zack...but we'll discuss it another day!

 

[Zee]

Sorry Alex~ thank you as well! G'night.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Oh, she WANTS Zack. It's why she's still attracted to his elements in Cloud.

She just realizes on some level he's never coming back and is trying to move on. Problem being her subconscious mind isn't ready to move on just yet.

 

[A]

Okay, on that note, I gotta head off. I'll be gone for the weekend, but I hope some more talk gets going. Thanks for the discussion, A! =)

I had fun Zee. Call me Ali by the way, and night!

 

[crack]

The party's over...?

NOOOOOO

 

[Frostwave]

Oh, she WANTS Zack. It's why she's still attracted to his elements in Cloud.

She just realizes on some level he's never coming back and is trying to move on. Problem being her subconscious mind isn't ready to move on just yet.

Yeah.

And anyway, why would it not bother her to be pursuing a guy who resembles her lost lover? That'd bother any sane woman, wouldn't it?

 

[Alex Strife]

Yay! Sorry, I was just being an attention b**** for a moment, but everything's alright now.



^and any sane man, for that matter!

 

[A]

No, you weren't Alex. Don't worry.

 

[Alex Strife]

^ I was just kidding about me asking for moar thanks.

I got thanked a lot today, which is nice. ^.^

 

[Death Sin]

Well, after not getting word from Zack for so long its not all that surprising that Aerith tried to move on and carry on with her life. It's only human nature for one to attempt to do as such, ne? But the thing is that her words and actions do come to show us that while she claims "it doesn't really matter", "no, but I liked him for a while" and stuff like that, its still pretty apparent that she isn't over Zack (at least, not completely). The fact she was able to recognize Zack in the "Zackfied/Jenova influenced" Cloud and the fact Crisis Core shows us that she kept yerning for him (as Ryu pointed out) , so I wouldn't put Zack behind her at all.

In fact, if you look at it, the Cloud Aerith apparently fell for (or fell attracted to, if you want to be technical) was pretty much the "Zackfied/Jenova influenced" Cloud since, well, she was never able to "meet" the real Cloud. And that's one of the reasons her death caused such a surprise and impact on the players.

I guess that sums it up, basically