Strangelove
AI Researcher
- AKA
- hitoshura
Is actually wrong
It's more 'setting free' than 'letting go' (to go with the 'being stuck' before it). 'Memories' in Japanese can mean more things, like 'feelings' or 'wish'.
The First Epic LTD of TLS forums
- Thread starter Strangelove
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It's more 'setting free' than 'letting go' (to go with the 'being stuck' before it). 'Memories' in Japanese can mean more things, like 'feelings' or 'wish'.
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
From the black screen and text voice over bits, but I doubt they actually compiled them all. It'd be interesting to double check, but cba.
Is actually wrong
It's more 'setting free' than 'letting go' (to go with the 'being stuck' before it). 'Memories' in Japanese can mean more things, like 'feelings' or 'wish'.
In Other Words- HOLY AIN'T MOVING! We gotta kick it so it gets moving!
Ravynne Nevyrmore
that one Lucrecia fangirl
- AKA
- Ravynne
I have, extensively, and it's bogus unless they're getting it from the Japanese version. Souya's translation, at least, hints to nothing of the sort. As far as the English version is concerned, she only says the word "love" once, anyway. They must have supersonic hearing that enables them to hear dialogue we can't and are reading things that weren't written.Ryushikaze said:
I have officially been arsed to correct it, though.
Let's see how long my changes to the article stick.Now one of these days I will get around to posting the rest of Souya's translations...
Oh. Well then. Someone pick some new on topic dramaz.hitoshura said:Is actually wrong
It's more 'setting free' than 'letting go' (to go with the 'being stuck' before it). 'Memories' in Japanese can mean more things, like 'feelings' or 'wish'.
Not that I mind discussing Lucrecia and Dirge instead.
DrakeClawfang
The Wanderer of Time
The Fusion Sword debacle was admittedly handled poorly. But Ryu, see it from our point of view - a new user comes into an article, suggests a drastic change and has an attitude of "you're wrong, I'm right". It's going to get a hostile response no matter where that is. The Wiki isn't perfect, but as you know perfectly well Ryu, since you edit there now and then, there's many editors working to improve it all the time. But sadly, many games can't get the coverage they need from informed users (Crisis Core, Dirge of Cerberus, FF12 International, etc), which leads to these sorts of errors.
But to be fair, I'm really not that bothered. The FF Wiki isn't perfect, considering the active community for editing is probably less than 10% of the total membership. I really wish more people would take a larger interest in the mainspace instwead of just using it as a forum, but...oh well.
My personal investment in the Wiki aside, the great thing about Wikis is that anyone can edit them. Instead of just complaining about the Wiki's sometimes-incorrect information, why not fix it? Feel free to help.
But to be fair, I'm really not that bothered. The FF Wiki isn't perfect, considering the active community for editing is probably less than 10% of the total membership. I really wish more people would take a larger interest in the mainspace instwead of just using it as a forum, but...oh well.
My personal investment in the Wiki aside, the great thing about Wikis is that anyone can edit them. Instead of just complaining about the Wiki's sometimes-incorrect information, why not fix it? Feel free to help.
Channy
Bad Habit
- AKA
- Ruby Rose, Lucy
Soz I watched the Lucrecia scene because it's one of my favs, just to see if this rabid fangirl idea is true or not, and it could VERY VAGUELY be pieced together.
Here are all the chopped up words during the final chapter when this occurs.
The closed off words appear for a split second before disappearing but can be heard slightly clearly than others.
Clearly a d'aww moment as she admits this.
Even more aww <3
Clearly her inner thoughts think they do everything together :3
This follows a confrontation with Hojo about him taking poor baby Sephy from Lucrecia. She never got to see him. ;-;
She recognizes her own weakness about not being able to protect either Vincent or Sephiroth.
And now for the jumbled mess.
Some words are said louder than others, and if you piece em together some do form broken sentences, this was what I came up with
Which she did.
Kinda a long stretch? Since as a isn't said...
These words are all said in the same volume so they do go together.
Taking what is left over, I came up with this (the fangirl version anyway)
However it's just 'so sorry' and not 'I'm so sorry'. But the fangirls will tell you that 'I'm so sorry' is uttered earlier, and therefor applicable.
That just leaves us with words
Apply// Survive// Hope
?
Here are all the chopped up words during the final chapter when this occurs.
The closed off words appear for a split second before disappearing but can be heard slightly clearly than others.
Clearly a d'aww moment as she admits this.
Even more aww <3
Clearly her inner thoughts think they do everything together :3
This follows a confrontation with Hojo about him taking poor baby Sephy from Lucrecia. She never got to see him. ;-;
She recognizes her own weakness about not being able to protect either Vincent or Sephiroth.
And now for the jumbled mess.
Some words are said louder than others, and if you piece em together some do form broken sentences, this was what I came up with
Which she did.
Kinda a long stretch? Since as a isn't said...
These words are all said in the same volume so they do go together.
Taking what is left over, I came up with this (the fangirl version anyway)
However it's just 'so sorry' and not 'I'm so sorry'. But the fangirls will tell you that 'I'm so sorry' is uttered earlier, and therefor applicable.
That just leaves us with words
Apply// Survive// Hope
?
Tennyo
Higher Further Faster
Ravynne Nevyrmore
that one Lucrecia fangirl
- AKA
- Ravynne
Well, not the LT in question, but what the hell.
You'll also notice that other words we get in English don't even seem to appear in the literal Japanese translation, so I think it was a case of the official translators giving us the "flavor" of what was meant rather than conveying word for word. If we were meant to read into the appearance of every single word Lucrecia utters in that scene, then it was something put into the English version only and doesn't seem to appear in the Japanese original—unless it was there and simply evaded Souya.
I'd love to believe it. But I don't think that's true.
Similarly—
When she says "I couldn't save him" she could very well be talking about both men at the same time. The Japanese translation seems to imply that she's realizing at this time that she had been transferring the guilt she felt regarding Grimoire to Vincent all this time, so the link is there. And of course the next scene reinforces this link and her acknowledgment of it also.
I do think that her words betray an obvious love for Vincent, but not because there's some super secret hidden code to be deciphered in the placement of what words were said when, where, and how. I think it's obvious at face value because she says things like "I never wanted to lose you" and "There are some things we cannot let disappear" and "I'm so sorry for all the fucked up shit I've done, but even though my life is miserable I'm happy because you're still alive."
That last one may be a paraphrase.
Interesting theory, but we have words like "thought" that, when alone, we can't easily tell if they're verbs or nouns. Souya's translation of the Japanese of that scene is this:Channy said:
Now I can't vouch for what it says in Japanese or how to translate it personally, but her translating it to "my thoughts" would leave me to believe that that word, for instance, is used as a noun.
You'll also notice that other words we get in English don't even seem to appear in the literal Japanese translation, so I think it was a case of the official translators giving us the "flavor" of what was meant rather than conveying word for word. If we were meant to read into the appearance of every single word Lucrecia utters in that scene, then it was something put into the English version only and doesn't seem to appear in the Japanese original—unless it was there and simply evaded Souya.
I'd love to believe it. But I don't think that's true.
Similarly—
I think she's referring to Grimoire there when she says "we." Also in the other line when she says "with him" since when she says "I found it" she's talking about having found the solution, which is Chaos, and Grimoire is who she literally found Chaos with.Channy said:
When she says "I couldn't save him" she could very well be talking about both men at the same time. The Japanese translation seems to imply that she's realizing at this time that she had been transferring the guilt she felt regarding Grimoire to Vincent all this time, so the link is there. And of course the next scene reinforces this link and her acknowledgment of it also.
I do think that her words betray an obvious love for Vincent, but not because there's some super secret hidden code to be deciphered in the placement of what words were said when, where, and how. I think it's obvious at face value because she says things like "I never wanted to lose you" and "There are some things we cannot let disappear" and "I'm so sorry for all the fucked up shit I've done, but even though my life is miserable I'm happy because you're still alive."
That last one may be a paraphrase.
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Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
Drake, I was initially quite civil, and tried to be as civil as possible throughout. It was Kaihedgie who took it to the 'I'm right you're wrong' assholefest based on what seemed to be little or nothing more than his hatred of the name Fusion swords.
Yes, I was obstinate, yes, I didn't back down, yes, I called people wrong and myself right. BECAUSE I WAS, and I could prove it, and they could not prove their positions, as was proven by the difficult and then admitted impossibility of finding an official source using the words 'first tsurugi' and my several example of Fusion swords.
Then there was the anonymous coward who I'm rather sure was a certain antagonistic rabid I've run into several times, since there was the reaction that I'd joined the wiki for purely LTD reasons, but yeah.
Of course, that does bring up an odd problem with wikis in general.
How to be NPOV with a hotly contested subject, but one in which the contestors are blatantly wrong or have no foot to stand on? And honestly, why bother? Evo v ID doesn't deserve NPOV, or anything less than the ID crowd being mocked. In other words, neutrality should be your starting point, not your end presentation.
It's like the SW v ST debates.
Yes, I was obstinate, yes, I didn't back down, yes, I called people wrong and myself right. BECAUSE I WAS, and I could prove it, and they could not prove their positions, as was proven by the difficult and then admitted impossibility of finding an official source using the words 'first tsurugi' and my several example of Fusion swords.
Then there was the anonymous coward who I'm rather sure was a certain antagonistic rabid I've run into several times, since there was the reaction that I'd joined the wiki for purely LTD reasons, but yeah.
Of course, that does bring up an odd problem with wikis in general.
How to be NPOV with a hotly contested subject, but one in which the contestors are blatantly wrong or have no foot to stand on? And honestly, why bother? Evo v ID doesn't deserve NPOV, or anything less than the ID crowd being mocked. In other words, neutrality should be your starting point, not your end presentation.
It's like the SW v ST debates.
DrakeClawfang
The Wanderer of Time
True, you *were* right. It's just that after we've had to deal with people like End Game and AJ Durai, sometimes at the Wiki we're a bit hard to new guys.
BTW, you can consider this my informal apology for our rough start there.
BTW, you can consider this my informal apology for our rough start there.
Channy
Bad Habit
- AKA
- Ruby Rose, Lucy
Well, not the LT in question, but what the hell.
We'll have our own little LTD
oic. See, the Jap translated version makes much more sense and comes in longer, more complete sentences. All we get are shit phrases with at most, 3 words attached and random other words.
It makes sense when it's translated like that and then when ours was localized, not so much. Which I guess also says where the fangirls got their random junk from.
Does make sense, yar.
I like my little phrases, but those extra words make no sense. D;
See, I always thought it was she and Vincent, since when that pops up, she's screaming at Vincent's transformation and then the materia materializes
itself before her. I figured she and Vincent (Vincent inside Chaos atm) found it together.. somehow >>Well, agree with that.
Well gee I musta missed that part of the game.
Vendel
Banned
A little birdie has given me some insights. Delicious little tidbits.
1. Zerith is officially dead (yes pun fucking intended).
2. Cloud despite what the creators have said doesn't enjoy living with his family.
3. Koibito....just koibito.
And once I can pick myself up off the floor I will elaborate with screens and MS paint mocking. Until then I leave you with a visual representation of the words I will show you later.
1. Zerith is officially dead (yes pun fucking intended).
2. Cloud despite what the creators have said doesn't enjoy living with his family.
3. Koibito....just koibito.
And once I can pick myself up off the floor I will elaborate with screens and MS paint mocking. Until then I leave you with a visual representation of the words I will show you later.
paoo
♥
And once I can pick myself up off the floor I will elaborate with screens and MS paint mocking. Until then I leave you with a visual representation of the words I will show you later.
LOL. Haven't we seen enough of the PN thingy?
Neutron Ronnie
From The Front of Armament
- AKA
- Powerslave
Tifa, I think?
Whenever I play through Sephiroth's recreation of the Nibelheim incident, or the part where Tifa and Cloud salvage Cloud's memories in the Lifestream, I think that Cloud really does dig Tifa. Add to that what he says (shyly) to her in Case of Tifa, and the Compilation seems to support the Cloud/Tifa pairing.
It seems that the folks at Squex abstain from concretely resolving the issue because they like watching Cloti-fans and Clerith-fans attempting to tear each others' throats out.
Sorry for deviating back to the deviation here
, but isn't the Protomateria what Lucretia records was found by Dr Valentine at the Fountain of Chaos in one of the omega reports?
Whenever I play through Sephiroth's recreation of the Nibelheim incident, or the part where Tifa and Cloud salvage Cloud's memories in the Lifestream, I think that Cloud really does dig Tifa. Add to that what he says (shyly) to her in Case of Tifa, and the Compilation seems to support the Cloud/Tifa pairing.
It seems that the folks at Squex abstain from concretely resolving the issue because they like watching Cloti-fans and Clerith-fans attempting to tear each others' throats out.
See, I always thought it was she and Vincent, since when that pops up, she's screaming at Vincent's transformation and then the materia materializes
Sorry for deviating back to the deviation here
, but isn't the Protomateria what Lucretia records was found by Dr Valentine at the Fountain of Chaos in one of the omega reports?
DrakeClawfang
The Wanderer of Time
It seems that the folks at Squex abstain from concretely resolving the issue because they like watching Cloti-fans and Clerith-fans attempting to tear each others' throats out.
^ This.
Ravynne Nevyrmore
that one Lucrecia fangirl
- AKA
- Ravynne
We should make another thread called "That Other LTD." If our OT posts get moved, I vote this plz.Channy said:We'll have our own little LTD
That's why I love having a literal Japanese translation as well as an official translation. They usually say the same things in different ways, but by comparing the two ways in which they were said you can get a clearer overall idea of what was meant. I think the official English translation is just as important--perhaps even moreso--than fan translations. It tells us not only what was said originally but also what the company itself decided they wanted us to hear. The entire scope has to be considered when you're judging a character and their feelings and motives, IMO. But we also have to remember that the version we got isn't what was written verbatim by the creators, so we can't play word games like that.Channy said:
A lot of people seem to think that—I did too, at first—but it's actually misleading. The Protomateria didn't suddenly pop into existence. It was in her lab all along.McChanster said:See, I always thought it was she and Vincent, since when that pops up, she's screaming at Vincent's transformation and then the materia materializes
Powerslave got it.
The Omega reports say this:
It was created by the Planet, not by Lucrecia's anguish or Chaos's hissy fit, and it was found alongside Chaos in the grotto by Grimoire.
DoC doesn't do a spectacular job of illustrating this. Good storytelling would have shown us the Protomateria sitting in her lab before it became an integral part of the story. But it failed there.
In Lost Episode, which no one on Earth has actually played, there is a scene in which Lucrecia prods Vincent into dancing with her to a song on the radio in her lab. He awkwardly agrees, they dance and she says some cryptic things about the way she feels about him, and he notices the Protomateria sitting on her desk and asks what it is. She starts to say something along the lines of "It's your father's such and such" but cuts herself off before she mentions his father (and just says "It's your...") and just leaves it at "it's something very important."
So the Protomateria was already in her lab at that point. But we got JILTED by LE. >.> JILTED.
Yeah, Lu has a real potty mouth.Channy said:Well gee I musta missed that part of the game.
But the real quote I was referring to is, "But...this isn't how it was supposed to be. I've made too many mistakes, and I've hurt you...so, so much. Why did I do what I did?! I'm so sorry! But...I'm so happy...you survived."Only because they didn't have me as a dialogue writer, though.
Also this.powerslave said:It seems that the folks at Squex abstain from concretely resolving the issue because they like watching Cloti-fans and Clerith-fans attempting to tear each others' throats out.
Tennyo
Higher Further Faster
It seems that the folks at Squex abstain from concretely resolving the issue because they like watching Cloti-fans and Clerith-fans attempting to tear each others' throats out.
It's free marketing, imho. Also maybe they feel that if they do concretely resolve it a chunk of the fanbase will bail ship. Sad, but it's more than likely true. And I mean there are people on both sides who would bail depending upon the pairing chosen, since people really are that shallow and really do only care about the LTD even though it's one of the least important plot points in FFVII. :/
Ravynne Nevyrmore
that one Lucrecia fangirl
- AKA
- Ravynne
??Tennyo said:
Also, I think we all know that it is an epic love story. It's the epic tale of the love between Cloud and Sephiroth.
Alex Strife
Ex-SOLDIER
I say they'll resolve it with the last thing they'll do about the compilation, which is a sequel to DoC. In an interview they said they'll keep doing things about FFVII until it's 20th anniversary, which is 2017, so we should expect a sequel and a remake in 8 years time. (or something in between now and then, anyway).
So in 8 years the LT Discussion should be over.
Then, we have few time to discuss!
So in 8 years the LT Discussion should be over.
Then, we have few time to discuss!
Ravynne Nevyrmore
that one Lucrecia fangirl
- AKA
- Ravynne
I doubt it. They didn't resolve it with the end of FF7, and they thought that would be the last of the story at the time. It's more beneficial to them to keep us hanging and discussing some aspects, even if they never plan to resolve them.
yep. Also I don't know how some people think that Cloud's an Aerith's love is epic because it goes beyond death, it's almost like Romeo and Juliet and all that spiritual crap, when Zerith is almost the same thing. The guy disappears for 4/5 years (?) and the girl is still hung up to him, the guy dies and the girl tries to move on but starts to fall in love with a copy of her first love, then the girl dies and is reunited with her first love. Really if you're into all that stuff I think Zerith is the better choice.
Hinata Hyuga
wallflower
- AKA
- Juniper, Rinali, Legretta
If you've got access to the Ultimanias, all the statements outside the game, then I think they've made the answer to the LT pretty obvious.
I mean, they confirm in an interview that Cloud and Tifa realized their feelings for each other at the end of the story, that they toned down the a version of the Highwind scene where they showed in a blunt way that Cloud and Tifa did it in the chocobo stables.
And then Cloud says he wants Tifa by his side for the rest of his life, in a different way than she was before. And then they start acting like a couple, living together, taking care of children. Denzel being their adopted child. Nojima wrote in about thier friends discussing them like them being a couple was just an accepted thing, that Tifa wears the pants in their relationship.
It's not that they haven't been clear enough. It's statements about things like interpretation that people have latched onto, and have taken it as a go ahead to say that any little thing means whatever they want it to mean.
Square Enix can continue to keep it in the low, but it's been resolved.
I mean, they confirm in an interview that Cloud and Tifa realized their feelings for each other at the end of the story, that they toned down the a version of the Highwind scene where they showed in a blunt way that Cloud and Tifa did it in the chocobo stables.
And then Cloud says he wants Tifa by his side for the rest of his life, in a different way than she was before. And then they start acting like a couple, living together, taking care of children. Denzel being their adopted child. Nojima wrote in about thier friends discussing them like them being a couple was just an accepted thing, that Tifa wears the pants in their relationship.
It's not that they haven't been clear enough. It's statements about things like interpretation that people have latched onto, and have taken it as a go ahead to say that any little thing means whatever they want it to mean.
Square Enix can continue to keep it in the low, but it's been resolved.
Vendel
Banned
STOP MAKING SENSE!
IMO the 'love triangle' ended (definitively) with the lifestream event. The well reasoned argument continues though.
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