The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[Fairheartstrife]

And will you people please stop with this damn talk about rings = guilt?

Rings=fashion statement.

Rings=Pack.

Rings=Family.

Rings="OhmygodsIforgotyourbirthdayherehavearingonme"

Rings=/= Guilt.

Pretty much.

 

[A]

To bring it back: I read somewhere some pages back that in ACC Tifa and Cloud's hands linger like they're about to hold hands at some point? I didn't spot this so could anyone point out where it is or was the post in question referring to another couple?

I don't recall this ever happening in ACC. Maybe someone was looking to closely into it?

 

[Vendel]

To bring it back: I read some pages back that in ACC Tifa and Cloud's hands linger like they're about to hold hands at some point? I didn't spot this so could anyone point out where it is, or was the post in question referring to another couple?

Maybe you are thinking about how the subtle changes in ACC make it look like in the ending Aerith and Zack leave hand in hand(IMO).

I watched the scene in AC and have seen hi res screens of their exit in ACC. And you can tell a difference. As I told someone. In AC it looks like they just left at the same time. In ACC they leave 'together'.

*goes searching for screen shots*

Zerith dead my ass.....

 

[paoo]

To bring it back: I read some pages back that in ACC Tifa and Cloud's hands linger like they're about to hold hands at some point? I didn't spot this so could anyone point out where it is, or was the post in question referring to another couple?

Hmmm, the only time I know they hold hands is when Cloud is about to defeat Bahamut. But he hold hands with everyone else, so that doesn't really count.

Euuh... but anyway, I have often heard that Aerith is the reason why Cloud starts to fight again in AC. He doesn't fight for her.

His family is the reason. Tifa, Marlene and Denzel gives Cloud the will to fight again.

 

[mentaz]

To bring it back: I read some pages back that in ACC Tifa and Cloud's hands linger like they're about to hold hands at some point? I didn't spot this so could anyone point out where it is, or was the post in question referring to another couple?

I recall something like that but it was referred to Aerith and Zack when they're leaving the church.

Maybe someone was looking to closely into it?

Probably it.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Did it occur to anyone that the Cloudy Wolf is nothing more than a design motif Cloud happened to like, and its not connected to any imaginary wolf that lingers on screen in AC?

Stop over analyzing this. Cloud has the damn wolf thing as a cell phone wallpaper and a cell phone strap. It's not an embodiment or representation of angst. It's just his design motiff he has a hard on for, like Squall has for his Griever merchandise.

I'm sure if you went into his drawers he'd have matching Cloudy Wolf boxer shorts.

You would if he wore boxers, anways...

I didn't say it was guilt for everyone. I mean, just read/watch Denzel's story? How is that boy not going to have issues that need resolving? XD

It makes no difference to me so long as people aren't using the wolf as LTD proof.

Only way the wolf is LTD related at all is to demonstrate Cloud feels guilt/pain over failing Tifa, just as he does Zack and Aerith.

But it makes you wonder why Vincent doesn't have a ring too. Afterall, they dedicated an entire game to him overcoming his past/supressed emotions over Lucrecia and Shinra etc. Then again, apparently he has the wolf emblem on his gun somewhere...?

No, he has Cerberus on his gun, not Fenrir.

I never said anything changed either. I'm careful of how I word my posts for a reason.

If I remember correctly Nomura himself describes the wolf as a symbol of Cloud's guilt/pain in an interview which came with the AC DVD extras. He doesn't necessarily limit his comment to the wolf we see walking around. It's the same animal but just as a symbol, it's not unreasonable to think it means the same thing. It is a wolf.

Actually, the emblem is always called the 'cloudy wolf' emblem, while the wolf is always called the wolf.

Apparently something was mentioned about Tifa's ring in particular at a "Square Enix Party" but I haven't been able to find out what was actually said. Anyone know?

That it's hers, and is the Cloudy Wolf Ring.

Since we know the wolf represents Cloud's guilt it's reasonable to assume that the wolf emblem represents the same thing as it's the same animal.

Except the meaning of Garm and Fenrir are totally different, despite both being wolves. And the emblem is based off of Fenrir, the bound wolf who will one day devour the moon. The wolf of guilt... not so much.

But it makes you wonder why not all of Avalanche have a wolf ring if it's about being a pack. Unless Square Enix is trying to portray Barrett as a member of Cloud's family/more immediate pack afterall. Which I doubt because there's a quote which pins down Denzel, Marlene and Tifa as his family and Barrett is not mentioned. I suppose it's always possible they all obtained the rings around the beginning of CoT when they were together and it's been said somewhere that Denzel's ring is actually Cloud's own ring that he gave to him. Also, since Cloud's covered in the emblem I'd say he gave Tifa and Barrett their rings too.

If Barret's ring is intended to mean anything. It is only visible in about two frames, and obliquely on one character shot, never given any consideration.

Like that website I gave the link to elaborated on, Marlene is shown to be different from the others in that she isn't weighed down by anything and this sets her apart from the rest of her family (which is everyone wearing the rings including Barrett) and so it makes sense that she be the exception when it comes to the wolf ring.

A well thought out hypothesis, but only if you assume the rings have an inherent meaning.

I disagree. Yuffie, Cid, Nanaki and Marlene have nothing to feel guilty over or have any supressed emotions that are troubling them. Then on the other hand we have those who wear the wolf ring: Tifa who feels guilty for the destruction of Sector 7, Barrett who feels guilty over Corel (and probably sector 7 too), Denzel who wishes for Cloud to come home but doesn't say anything (which is also like Tifa) and ultimately Cloud who still feels guilty for Aerith and Zack's deaths.

And for failing his family.

A pattern has emerged, so it makes sense to connect the wolf ring to guilt.

Though the 'reason' for Denzel is actually supposition, as I don't recall that being said about Denzel- and he was open, though quiet about wanting Cloud home.

As for Vincent, like I said above, apparently he has the wolf emblem on his gun somewhere but I've personally never spotted it.

Different Emblem.

Then surely we'd see this desgin motif in Crisis Core, but we don't.

Why, exactly, when Cloud is a ShinRa Grunt and not the focus of the game?
We actually barely see the emblem, if at all, in DoC, either.

Cloud's not emo in CC, there isn't any time for him to sulk in the church and slave away designing something that means nothing, just so he can get away from Tifa.

YES I WENT THERE

Wait, setting everything else aside, the logic of 'not emo= no time' doesn't work. At all.

He also hasn't acquired any guilt yet.

Actually, he already did. Letting Tifa fall, natch.

But yeah we're going off topic now.

To bring it back: I read some pages back that in ACC Tifa and Cloud's hands linger like they're about to hold hands at some point? I didn't spot this so could anyone point out where it is, or was the post in question referring to another couple?

Whereabouts in the movie was this supposed to be?

 

[Tennyo]

I'm just saying they have the ribbon to represent Aerith's death, why would Tifa still be guilty and require a ring for it, if her guilt wasn't more important than everyone elses?

Tifa doesn't feel guilty over just Aerith. The also feels guilty over her actions as a member of AVALANCHE, as I stated a page or two back.

And mostly AVALANCHE stuff more so than Aerith anyway.

Still don't see how this makes her feelings more important. They're just her feelings. What can you do about it?

 

[Channy]

Wait, setting everything else aside, the logic of 'not emo= no time' doesn't work. At all.

You were the only one to pick up on that.

What I meant by no time, is that we don't get any screen time with Cloud to know how he's feeling. But when we do get screen time with Cloud, he's with Zack, and Zack makes him happy (..not counting the ending).

...Plus he's not even ever at the church in CC cause he doesn't know about it. But nobody picked that up either.

 

[paoo]

But when we do get screen time with Cloud, he's with Zack, and Zack makes him happy

You mean their smex, right?

Btw, didn't Barret say that he wanted to "settle his past" (and so he did) and then told Tifa that she could do that at Seventh Heaven with her family?

 

[Channy]

Well DUH.

 

[Tennyo]

You were the only one to pick up on that.

What I meant by no time, is that we don't get any screen time with Cloud to know how he's feeling. But when we do get screen time with Cloud, he's with Zack, and Zack makes him happy (..not counting the ending).

...Plus he's not even ever at the church in CC cause he doesn't know about it. But nobody picked that up either.

I picked up on it, but I figured you were being sarcastic.

 

[Vendel]

Ah I found what I was looking for.

Ah, here.
(AAC!!!!)

Spoiler

Zerith fusion form!

As for Cloud and Tifa. The only time I remember them holding hands is during the big "toss cloud a mile in the air" scene. But it does linger a bit when they lock eyes.....

 

[Channy]

YOU LIE TENNYO, STOP TRYING TO SAVE FACE

ilurly <3

 

[Raquelborn]

Why, exactly, when Cloud is a ShinRa Grunt and not the focus of the game?
We actually barely see the emblem, if at all, in DoC, either.

Which shows that the emblem is most important in AC/C and considering that the theme of the movie is Cloud's guilt and how he overcomes it, it makes sense to connect this 'new' Cloudy Wolf emblem to the theme - guilt.

Actually, he already did. Letting Tifa fall, natch.

Yet the wolf wasn't walking around when Cloud recalled this (and neither is the Cloudy Wolf emblem present), so the wolf must represent the overall build up of his guilt from repeatedly failing to protect his loved ones, which is resolved in AC/C where both the Cloudy Wolf emblem and 'the wolf' appear.

...only if you assume the rings have an inherent meaning.

If they don't have any meaning then it seems like such a waste of Sqaure Enix's time to make sure that we notice both Denzel and Tifa are wearing them. Do you think the rings mean nothing at all?

Whereabouts in the movie was this supposed to be?

I don't know, hence why I asked. But at any rate it seems like the post I saw was either talking about Zack and Aerith leaving the church or when Tifa grabs his hand to chuck him at Bahamut.

Btw, didn't Barret say that he wanted to "settle his past" (and so he did) and then told Tifa that she could do that at Seventh Heaven with her family?

Yep although he doesn't say 'with your family'. He refers to them as a family when he's setting off - &#8220;Unite the family&#8217;s strength and keep at it!&#8221;. Also, he obviously refers to them as a family when talking with Marlene as she says &#8220;I&#8217;ll be a nice child of this family!&#8221; as he's walking away (which puzzles Cloud and Tifa).

After the first week of being open, Barret said that he would go on a trip seeing how well the business was going. He was going to leave Marlene behind.
&#8220;I wanna go on a journey to settle my past.&#8221;
Tifa was disturbed at Barret&#8217;s words. Cloud nodded calmly as if he had heard about this before.
&#8220;Settle your past&#8230;? But I want to do that too.&#8221;
&#8221;Tifa, you can do it here. Don&#8217;t just take. Show that you can give too.&#8221;

 

[Tennyo]

Zerith fusion form!

lol

As for Cloud and Tifa. The only time I remember them holding hands is during the big "toss cloud a mile in the air" scene. But it does linger a bit when they lock eyes.....

Yes, yes he does linger a tid bit longer when he gets to her.

ALSO I TELL THE TRUTH CHANNY!

ilu2

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Yet the wolf wasn't walking around when Cloud recalled this (and neither is the Cloudy Wolf emblem present), so the wolf must represent the overall build up of his guilt from repeatedly failing to protect his loved ones, which is resolved in AC/C where both the Cloudy Wolf emblem and 'the wolf' appear.

If they don't have any meaning then it seems like such a waste of Sqaure Enix's time to make sure we notice both Denzel and Tifa are wearing them. Do you think the rings mean nothing at all?

I don't think Ryu is trying to imply that the rings have no meaning, it's just that the meaning associated with the rings is NOT guilt. The Cloudy Wolf a symbol of unity, of family, but MOSTLY it's a representation of Cloud and those connected to him--closest, his family.

The wandering wolf IS the manifestation of Cloud's guilt and ONLY appears in areas/times associated with Cloud's guilt. At the Buster Sword, In the flowers when he's too late for Tifa, at the Forgotten City, and in the end when he lets it GO.

These "symbols" are not interchangeable, and not even connected except in the fact that they are wolves--which is Cloud's symbol.

Hope that clears some stuff up...

 

[Vendel]

Yep although he doesn't say 'with your family'. He refers to them as a family when he's setting off - &#8220;Unite the family&#8217;s strength and keep at it!&#8221;. Also, he obviously refers to them as a family when talking to Marlene as she says &#8220;I&#8217;ll be a nice child of this family!&#8221; as he's walking away (which puzzles Cloud and Tifa).

You know. It's funny. Barret leaves and pretty much tells Cloud, Tifa and Marlene they are now the family And they should take care of one another. Followed by Marlene being adorable again and 'adopting' Cloud.

This goes into my whole "everyone knows they are a couple" line of reasoning. He would not have left her with C And T to be a member of their family if he didn't think so. Then when talking about it later Cid states how the women wear the pants.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Which shows that the emblem is most important in AC/C and considering that the theme of the movie is Cloud's guilt and how he overcomes it, it makes sense to connect this 'new' Cloudy Wolf emblem to the theme - guilt.

Actually, it shows that AC/C is focused on Cloud, while neither CC nor DoC are. Cloud still wears his emblem in DoC, we can take glimpses of it, but it's not the focus because Cloud his wasn't the focus.

Yet the wolf wasn't walking around when Cloud recalled this (and neither is the Cloudy Wolf emblem present), so the wolf must represent the overall build up of his guilt from repeatedly failing to protect his loved ones, which is resolved in AC/C where both the Cloudy Wolf emblem and 'the wolf' appear.

Except the EMBLEM both APPEARS BEFORE AND REMAINS AFTER the existence of the wolf. The wolf is guilt, yes, but that doesn't mean the Fenrir emblem is as well.

If they don't have any meaning then it seems like such a waste of Sqaure Enix's time to make sure that we notice both Denzel and Tifa are wearing them. Do you think the rings mean nothing at all?

It's entirely possible. The angel has none either. But what I was getting at is that the assumption was that the rings have a particular meaning, and backfitting that meaning.

I don't know, hence why I asked. But at any rate it seems like the post I saw was either talking about Zack and Aerith leaving the church or when Tifa grabs his hand to chuck him at Bahamut.

Well, in the C/T case, their hold does linger on longer than the other holdups, we see them staring each other in the eyes, and a very faint smile on Cloud's part.

In the Z/A case, it does look like they hold hands, but the whiteness makes it difficult to tell.

Yep although he doesn't say 'with your family'. He refers to them as a family when he's setting off - &#8220;Unite the family&#8217;s strength and keep at it!&#8221;. Also, he obviously refers to them as a family when talking with Marlene as she says &#8220;I&#8217;ll be a nice child of this family!&#8221; as he's walking away (which puzzles Cloud and Tifa).

Marlene says "I'll be a good kid to them" actually. And Barret's line is &#8220;You be strong!&#8221; His voice was cracking. &#8220;Work together as a family and keep at it, ya hear?!&#8221;

 

[Raquelborn]

It's entirely possible. The angel has none either. But what I was getting at is that the assumption was that the rings have a particular meaning, and backfitting that meaning.

How else would one try to determine the meaning of something unless it's been officially stated? It's like how science works, you come across something with no obvious meaning or cause and you're forced to think 'backwards' in order to determine what it could be. Of course, because nothing has been stated by SE it could very well be that the rings are representative of supressed feelings, or guilt, or those closest to Cloud, or they could quite simply have no meaning whatsoever (which would make little sense to me). Nonetheless it's open to speculation which I guess is exactly what we're doing, speculating.

Besides, I think FHS wrapped up this discussion nicely in her post.

Well, in the C/T case, their hold does linger on longer than the other holdups, we see them staring each other in the eyes, and a very faint smile on Cloud's part.

I never noticed him smiling because the shot is of the back of his head. Do you mean when he sees her about to jump out of the tower? But yes the camera does linger when their eyes meet which basically places emphasis on how important she is.

EDIT: I just rewatched the scene in slow motion and he does smile =D. How cute.

In the Z/A case, it does look like they hold hands, but the whiteness makes it difficult to tell.

I personally didn't notice and it's a minor change. But hey, I'm all up for Zack and Aerith getting to be together again so it's a nice thought.

Marlene says "I'll be a good kid to them" actually. And Barret's line is &#8220;You be strong!&#8221; His voice was cracking. &#8220;Work together as a family and keep at it, ya hear?!&#8221;

Actually, I took the quotes directly from the revised translation on this very site because I assumed it was accurate. http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-adve...o-a-smile-case-of-tifa-revised-translation/4/

 

[OneWingedDemon]

How else would one try to determine the meaning of something unless it's been officially stated?

By your logic, the rings cannot be associated with guilt because no such thing has been stated either. Nomura's DVD commentary is specifically directed to the wolf that appears @ Ancient's place & Zack's grave. That wolf. Go watch it again.

The Cloudy Wolf emblem is just a cool design, with no more meaning than Barret's tattoo in AC. It is mostly for the coolness factor, and to go with Cloud's image and naming of Fenrir. It is never associated with guilt and has no such symbolic meaning within the narrative itself.

Also, in the words of the staff, the themes of AC are family & survival - not guilt.
You're overanalyzing shit and trying to fit the wolf into your theory -- you're working backwards. If we all follow your logic, you can attribute anything to any object.

You're imposing your own image onto it -- like them Rorschach ink blots.

 

[Ryushikaze]

How else would one try to determine the meaning of something unless it's been officially stated? It's like how science works, you come across something with no obvious meaning or cause and you're forced to think 'backwards' in order to determine what it could be. Of course, because nothing has been stated by SE it could very well be that the rings are representative of supressed feelings, or guilt, or those closest to Cloud, or they could quite simply have no meaning whatsoever (which would make little sense to me). Nonetheless it's open to speculation which I guess is exactly what we're doing, speculating.

What I'm saying is that the everyone seems to have assumed the 'guilt' explanation, and then hastily backfit that explanation, especially in regards to Denzel.

I never noticed him smiling because the shot is of the back of his head. Do you mean when he sees her about to jump out of the tower? But yes the camera does linger when their eyes meet which basically places emphasis on how important she is.

EDIT: I just rewatched the scene in slow motion and he does smile =D. How cute.

In short, Tifa = important to Cloud and make him happy. In shorter, LTD= Over.

I personally didn't notice and it's a minor change. But hey, I'm all up for Zack and Aerith getting to be together again so it's a nice thought.

Indeed.

Actually, I took the quotes directly from the revised translation on this very site because I assumed it was accurate. http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-adve...o-a-smile-case-of-tifa-revised-translation/4/

Ah, the revised version. I was going from the old official, since I didn't recall there being any major change of that point from the original. In any case, she also says 'I'll take good care of Cloud and Tifa', indicating that that's the 'this family' she and Barret are referring to, along with the whole 'him never being included as a part of it' SE continues doing.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

I thought the two lines ("I'll be a nice child of this family" vs. "I'll be a good kid to them") were basically saying the same thing in varying degrees of Engrish.

 

[Vendel]

I personally didn't notice and it's a minor change. But hey, I'm all up for Zack and Aerith getting to be together again so it's a nice thought.

I am fully prepared to put on my rapid Zerith hat and blow up those screen shots and give a full analysis for each one.

 

[Ⓐaron]

I am fully prepared to put on my rapid Zerith hat and blow up those screen shots and give a full analysis for each one.

do it faggot

 

[Vendel]

do it faggot

YOU!