For the love of Jesus Mary Joseph I've said 80 times I don't think what Cloud and Aeris had was true love. Stop replying to my arguments if you don't even know what they are, kthnx.
Don't take it seriously, Zee. Massive snark has become a reflex response. It's an environmental adaptation to the TSBNLPoFF7C(WNPtAoC)EoQRT as a whole.
Don't take it seriously, Zee. Massive snark has become a reflex response. It's an environmental adaptation to the TSBNLPoFF7C(WNPtAoC)EoQRT as a whole.
No, no I didn’t mean I didn’t think the whole family business isn’t romantic, because personally I think that is down right adorable, same goes for many things in CoT are jus t priceless, but also Cloud going to Aerith’s church, going to the flowers, etc. can be considered romantic to many even if some jus t brush it off as guilt. Many Cleriths call C/T starting a family “just friends.” So, it just depends what wing you swing for. In all both sides have gotten lots of hints so you can’t just pick one and exclude the other completely if your playing by “narrative hints”. If Clotis want Cloti to be canon you can easily display it that way, same for Clerith. You can’t debate someones views on life, it isn’t going to change usually.
See but that's the thing. They know Clerith doesn't have any super solid proof, and clearly opinions of why they like Clerith aren't allowed here as this is for debate, so by all logic it should be closed. But it hasn't.
Therefor I conclude Cloti's love to troll Clerith's.
Yes, yes I know that this is realistic but loving two women at once isn't that romantic and seeing Cloud still is thinking about Aerith isn't just painful to think how Tifa feels if she is in a relationship with Cloud and he wants another women, along side her?
I just wanted to say that just because Cloud loves one girl doesn't mean he has to love her his whole life. Not arguing if he did/did not love Aerith here, but just because he may have fallen for her in the short time they were together does not mean he would be incapable of moving on and being happy with Tifa.
Some people have boyfriends/girlfriends who they loved dearly who die tragically, but that doesn't mean that they can't be happy with another one in the future. It doesn't mean this new BF/GF plays second fiddle to the former one, it just means the other one was prior.
Kay, now my legs is burning, Imma gonna put some aloe on them.
Correct- Just because you state something, doesn't mean it's true. But there's a difference when it comes to official material. You posted a quote, where Tifa stated they weren't that close- thanks for that. However, when you read that she is Cloud's childhood friend, that doesn't mean it's cancelled out. She still knew him when he was a child, they interacted, made quite an impactful promise, and thought about one another constantly until later on to the current (ACC/DOC) time. Whatever Cloud and Tifa had in the past, short or long, vague or in depth, it's still considered a friendship. This is how the character creators feel. And since they made the characters, there's no point in debating against their statements.
Like I was saying hun, you don’t need quotes for every detail.
Yes, well, I am a bit of a quote whore if you will, lol. I really like facts. While discussing the shipping and your own personal reasons for liking that shipping is enjoyable, when you're trying to prove something... without proper evidence, your argument just isn't strong, and it's going to be flawed and flawed until it eventually all falls apart. Quotes are pretty essential if you ask me.
While discussions are very nice, I agree with that- this is techincally a debate thread despite the ridiculous title. I can say that I respect everyone's opinion, but I will provide facts against the incorrect if I see fit. Not to offend anyone or tear them down, but because it's a debate thread.
A troll, most commonly encountered on the internet, is any person who purposely causes controversy in a web community and disrupts shit for his own amusement.....
Most trolls believe that they are, in fact, funny. Anyone who does not agree with them is obviously either: overly sensitive, has no life, no sense of humor, or is a combination of two or all of these. In many instances, one can see where troll has in fact messed up but is too wrapped in his own little laugh to notice how much of a douche they have really been. These trolls are the most easy to identify, as they often stop leaving comments when it is obvious even to a monkey with a brain tumor that they have fucked it up, or when you see a comment that begins with telling the owner of the site/picture/story/etc that they suck for no good reason. To be absolutely sure, look for the word "lulz" anywhere in their comments, or YHBT at the end of the comments.
What about this description of Clotis and Cleriths?
I found it amusing.
Clotis
CLOUD/TIFA FANS -
Fans range from ages 13-20
Seems to be the "realists" out of the two groups (but still just as retarded)
Not as dellusional
"Tifa is the better character"
Is much harsher when it comes to the debate
Cleriths
CLOUD/AERIS FANS -
Overkill the color pink
Fans range from age 12 to 30
Are responsible for the most poorly organized AMV's on Youtube
Has a tendancy to sugarcoat things
Uses the whole "I'm a victim" facade
Dellusional and Desperate
"Aeris is the better character"
Similarities
SIMILARITIES -
Fanatical
Flamers
Spammers
Lurkers
The whole "Holier-Than-Thou" attitude
Write very poorly written and laughable lemons/fanfiction
Childish and immature admins
Websites contain some of the most repetitive and overused information that has been found either on the Cloti-Aikou network or Desitny Fulfilled
Were responsible for the Anti-Tifa and Anti-Aeris shrines, hatelistings, clubs and many other things
Both sides seem to be ripping each other off in many ways (EX: Eternal Love = Cloti, Endless Love = Cleris. CxA Forums = Venting Forum, Strifeheart = Opinions and Rants [which is obviously the same thing]. The list goes on)
Seem to rely more on what the staff of Square-Enix says about their preferred couple instead of thinking for themselves
Both use the whole Kingdom Hearts bullshit to the point where it makes me gag
The adults act like children
The children try (and fail) at acting like adults
Cloud: That night I called Tifa out to the well...
Cloud: I thought to myself Tifa would never come, that she hated me.
It's quite simple. After Tifa woke up from her coma, she didn't remember what happened the day her mother died very clearly. The villagers appeared to be blaming Cloud for the accident - naturally, Cloud must've assumed Tifa did the same. So when he wanted a private audience with her - at a known date spot, no less - he was unsure that she would show up.
Cloud falls through the roof of the church and into Aerith's life exactly the same way Zack does. Aerith uses one of Zack's lines (about a date being payment) on Cloud as a way of rewarding a "service" - exactly the same way Zack used it on her. Aerith points out the vivid blue of Cloud's eyes (if I remember correctly) in her second most favorite place, the children's playground; while doing so, she remembers Zack - because she had a similar discussion with him at the same place.
I wouldn't exactly call that a fresh start from her previous relationship. It seems to me that the creators went out of their way to draw parallels between the way Aerith saw Zack and the way Aerith saw Cloud. Did they do that just for laughs? Naw, I think they're emphasizing that Aerith saw Zack in Cloud. She was still hung up over him - which is why she latched on to Cloud the way she did.
I'd wager that those [undying] feelings are closer to romantic love than they are of just comradery. You don't normally hold undying feelings for a friend, especially if you only knew them for 2 weeks AND were fucked in the head.
1. Yes, Cloud was fucked in the head. But this only manifested itself some of the time - such as in the Temple of the Ancients. For most of the time Cloud spent with Aerith, his emotions probably functioned like a normal human being's. He could form friendships, get irritated, laugh, fall in love (?), etc., etc.
2. You may not normally form undying feelings for a friend after two weeks. But what's happening here isn't normal. You have a bunch of people on the run for two weeks, scurrying away from Shinra while hunting down a mad freak with silver, gravity-defying hair. Not exactly your every day scenario. They probably spent almost every hour of every day in each other's company, and several hours fighting for their lives - possibly good enough to know someone pretty well after two weeks. Don't forget, soldiers are known to form strong bonds in a matter of hours or days. It's not too far-fetched to assume that Cloud and Aerith could have formed a non-romantic bond in two weeks.
But let's say, for the sake of argument, that what you say is true - you wouldn't form an undying friendship in two weeks in Cloud's situation. Would you say that you would form a(n undying) romantic relationship in the same circumstances in two weeks? If so, please explain why you would do the latter but not the former.
Well my argument from the childhood thing applies here. How dear friends can you be in just two weeks? It's easier not only to assume but argue that Cloud and Aerith were more in love than they were just friends. If not, his outrage over his death is certainly one for the books over just a 'dear friend'
But Cloud knew Tifa for over two weeks, isn't it easier to assume - by the same argument - that "it's easier not only to assume but argue that Cloud and Tifa were more in love than they were just friends"?
There is nothing inappropriate or unexpected in Cloud's outrage over Aerith's death if she was a dear friend. I'd be just as angry if someone killed a friend of mine I'd been with for a week. I didn't even like Aerith to begin with - frankly I disliked her a lot - but when Sephiroth killed her I was so angry I was, I am ashamed to admit, trembling. I certainly wasn't romantically interested in Aerith Gainsborough. What's surprising about a non-romantically-inclined Cloud being angrier?
When I said "for the sake of argument", I didn't mean an argument as such. I was merely wondering if you wished us to assume your statement was true and continue the argu discussion from there, or were you actually stating it as a fact?
What about this description of Clotis and Cleriths?
I found it amusing.
Clotis
CLOUD/TIFA FANS -
Fans range from ages 13-20
Seems to be the "realists" out of the two groups (but still just as retarded)
Not as dellusional
"Tifa is the better character"
Is much harsher when it comes to the debate
Cleriths
CLOUD/AERIS FANS -
Overkill the color pink
Fans range from age 12 to 30
Are responsible for the most poorly organized AMV's on Youtube
Has a tendancy to sugarcoat things
Uses the whole "I'm a victim" facade
Dellusional and Desperate
"Aeris is the better character"
Similarities
SIMILARITIES -
Fanatical
Flamers
Spammers
Lurkers
The whole "Holier-Than-Thou" attitude
Write very poorly written and laughable lemons/fanfiction
Childish and immature admins
Websites contain some of the most repetitive and overused information that has been found either on the Cloti-Aikou network or Desitny Fulfilled
Were responsible for the Anti-Tifa and Anti-Aeris shrines, hatelistings, clubs and many other things
Both sides seem to be ripping each other off in many ways (EX: Eternal Love = Cloti, Endless Love = Cleris. CxA Forums = Venting Forum, Strifeheart = Opinions and Rants [which is obviously the same thing]. The list goes on)
Seem to rely more on what the staff of Square-Enix says about their preferred couple instead of thinking for themselves
Both use the whole Kingdom Hearts bullshit to the point where it makes me gag
The adults act like children
The children try (and fail) at acting like adults
PWNS Clotis and Cleriths
Fans range from ages 0-1000/Jenova
Supports the canon
The most logical and intelligent in the fandom
Color Blue FTW
Laughs at debates
"Zack is the best character"
What about this description of Clotis and Cleriths?
I found it amusing.
Clotis
CLOUD/TIFA FANS -
Fans range from ages 13-20
Seems to be the "realists" out of the two groups (but still just as retarded)
Not as dellusional
"Tifa is the better character"
Is much harsher when it comes to the debate
Cleriths
CLOUD/AERIS FANS -
Overkill the color pink
Fans range from age 12 to 30
Are responsible for the most poorly organized AMV's on Youtube
Has a tendancy to sugarcoat things
Uses the whole "I'm a victim" facade
Dellusional and Desperate
"Aeris is the better character"
Similarities
SIMILARITIES -
Fanatical
Flamers
Spammers
Lurkers
The whole "Holier-Than-Thou" attitude
Write very poorly written and laughable lemons/fanfiction
Childish and immature admins
Websites contain some of the most repetitive and overused information that has been found either on the Cloti-Aikou network or Desitny Fulfilled
Were responsible for the Anti-Tifa and Anti-Aeris shrines, hatelistings, clubs and many other things
Both sides seem to be ripping each other off in many ways (EX: Eternal Love = Cloti, Endless Love = Cleris. CxA Forums = Venting Forum, Strifeheart = Opinions and Rants [which is obviously the same thing]. The list goes on)
Seem to rely more on what the staff of Square-Enix says about their preferred couple instead of thinking for themselves
Both use the whole Kingdom Hearts bullshit to the point where it makes me gag
The adults act like children
The children try (and fail) at acting like adults
Cloud: That night I called Tifa out to the well...
Cloud: I thought to myself Tifa would never come, that she hated me.
It's quite simple. After Tifa woke up from her coma, she didn't remember what happened the day her mother died very clearly. The villagers appeared to be blaming Cloud for the accident - naturally, Cloud must've assumed Tifa did the same. So when he wanted a private audience with her - at a known date spot, no less - he was unsure that she would show up.
Cloud falls through the roof of the church and into Aerith's life exactly the same way Zack does. Aerith uses one of Zack's lines (about a date being payment) on Cloud as a way of rewarding a "service" - exactly the same way Zack used it on her. Aerith points out the vivid blue of Cloud's eyes (if I remember correctly) in her second most favorite place, the children's playground; while doing so, she remembers Zack - because she had a similar discussion with him at the same place.
I wouldn't exactly call that a fresh start from her previous relationship. It seems to me that the creators went out of their way to draw parallels between the way Aerith saw Zack and the way Aerith saw Cloud. Did they do that just for laughs? Naw, I think they're emphasizing that Aerith saw Zack in Cloud. She was still hung up over him - which is why she latched on to Cloud the way she did.
And I think in many ways this makes her story a lot more compelling, especially from a psychological position. It's not 'Well, Zack was an ass, time to find me a new man, oh whups, found a man just like the old one' like some people make it out to be, but concluding that he's never coming back (though not, perhaps, admitting to herself that he has died) and trying to move on from him, only to blunder into seeking a man full of non-coincidental similarity to her old boyfriend. She tries to move on only to be further mired in her old relationship, until the end, at least.
Two points I'd like to make here.
1. Yes, Cloud was fucked in the head. But this only manifested itself some of the time - such as in the Temple of the Ancients. For most of the time Cloud spent with Aerith, his emotions probably functioned like a normal human being's. He could form friendships, get irritated, laugh, fall in love (?), etc., etc.
2. You may not normally form undying feelings for a friend after two weeks. But what's happening here isn't normal. You have a bunch of people on the run for two weeks, scurrying away from Shinra while hunting down a mad freak with silver, gravity-defying hair. Not exactly your every day scenario. They probably spent almost every hour of every day in each other's company, and several hours fighting for their lives - possibly good enough to know someone pretty well after two weeks. Don't forget, soldiers are known to form strong bonds in a matter of hours or days. It's not too far-fetched to assume that Cloud and Aerith could have formed a non-romantic bond in two weeks.
But let's say, for the sake of argument, that what you say is true - you wouldn't form an undying friendship in two weeks in Cloud's situation. Would you say that you would form a(n undying) romantic relationship in the same circumstances in two weeks? If so, please explain why you would do the latter but not the former.
But Cloud knew Tifa for over two weeks, isn't it easier to assume - by the same argument - that "it's easier not only to assume but argue that Cloud and Tifa were more in love than they were just friends"?
This. I wanted to ask this earlier, but forgot to before. How is it easier to form a romantic bond than a friendly one, especially a long lasting one, in two week's time?
And yes, even before the beginning of the game, C and T had more than two weeks coming in, and far more than two weeks coming out of the game, so if it's an issue of time, they still win.
There is nothing inappropriate or unexpected in Cloud's outrage over Aerith's death if she was a dear friend. I'd be just as angry if someone killed a friend of mine I'd been with for a week. I didn't even like Aerith to begin with - frankly I disliked her a lot - but when Sephiroth killed her I was so angry I was, I am ashamed to admit, trembling. I certainly wasn't romantically interested in Aerith Gainsborough. What's surprising about a non-romantically-inclined Cloud being angrier?
in those respective games and the latter's reaction to the former's demise.
When I said "for the sake of argument", I didn't mean an argument as such. I was merely wondering if you wished us to assume your statement was true and continue the argu discussion from there, or were you actually stating it as a fact?
Tifa was necessary for that to happen at any rate. That's something I think we can all agree on.
Is this your point?
Cloud have lost his light, and is trying to find it. In the credits he meets up with Aerith.
Sora have lost his light, and is trying to find it. Finally he meets up with Kairi.
Nomura created both games and he portrays all characters as true to how they are within their own universes, so relationships between characters won't be radically changed from what they were in their original games either.
Does Nomura just wants to give us some fanservice? I do believe so...
I believe so too. All spin-offs of FFVII are essentially fan service and ways of making SE more money. The fact is that FFVII is one hell of a cash cow.
It's still weird that SE says: "Cloud and Tifa came to realize their feelings for eachother" and then they put Cloud and Aerith in a game that makes them look like lovers, hm?
Yeah right. Maybe Nomura is trying to show that Cloud and Aerith were 'lovers' within the original game but after Cloud comes to the realisation of his feelings for Tifa he naturally stays with her. As a result she goes on to embody his light in KH2.
I shouldn't probably take the "Cloud's Light Debate" so seriously, but it's still fun.
Yes, yes it is. However "Who is Cloud's Light?" does deserve some attention because Nomura likes to echo Cloud's relationships with others within the original FFVII game in both KH games.
Sora wasn't looking for his light in KH2. He was looking for Mickey and later Riku, and then to stop the second Kingdom hearts. His 'light' issue was solved when Kairi gave him hers, in a sequence much like the one during Showdown of the Fates 2.
Thanks for clearing this up! I have been taking the words of some of the big Cleriths because I personally haven't ever played the games myself. I've only ever watched some the cut scenes from KH2 and to be honest, that's how it looked to me too *shrug* but I figured they knew better than me.
And it's interesting that Sora's love interest gives him light and Tifa also seems to give Cloud light. I like the possible parallel that the creators have set up here.
No, it does not suggest he's searching for it. He essentially says to Sora 'Don't fuck up Like I did, kid', and Sora says 'you're not irredeemable'. At NO point does he suggest he's looking for his light, much less his light in a romantic sense. In fact, the person you think is his light specifically wonders about Cloud's search for Sephiroth.
It isn't Cloud's lines that suggest this, it's Sora's line of "I’m searching, too."
And I'm asking you to support this romantic light/ internal light divide, which, if a theme, seems sorely underrepresented in the worlds visited over the course of the game.
So my own interpretation of the KH2 cut scenes I saw was possibly correct then but I haven't ever seen KH cut scenes so I wouldn't know if the theme is any different. Like I said earlier, I've been taking Cleriths' words for it.
But he's NOT. His macguffins are King Mickey, Riku, and the Kingdom Hearts. Unless one of those is his inner light somehow...
I've never seen a light transfer occur between any other characters. If someone knows at what point in the game any other light transfer occurs, could someone say? Then I can go find it myself.
I've got to say that upon re-watching the Cloud vs Sephiroth scene in KH2 it does look like a light transfer because he receives flashes of white light from Tifa and then after he says "I just...don't know" he glows white and then yellowish. But the thing is I have no other light transfer scenes to compare this to so would someone be kind enough to point me in the direction of one because Ryu couldn't be bothered?
So running from Tifa and her something warm for likely the same reasons as in AC/C, how does this not indicate she might also be the romantic light, again?
Like Cloud. Doesn't that make them more compatible?
You assume the inherent cosmology has changed dramatically since KH1? Let's use the embodiment thing you brought up. Sephiroth embodies Cloud's darkness. He HOLDS this darkness inside him, and is called by it, cannot die as long as there is darkness in Cloud. Tifa, similarly, embodies and holds Cloud's light. She carries his light around, for safekeeping.
That's very cute but what's so romantic about that?
The Riku returning Kairi's light and Kairi restoring Sora. I mean, if YOU can get away with 'It's an obvious thematic blah blah blah with no other explanation, why should I be arsed to go the extra mile?
If you can provide a visual/factual backing to your statements they then completely 'beat' mine. Why would you not take that oppurtunity to help convince more people of your views?
And yet she's actually RELEVANT to the Cloud's storyline. Sephiroth is a cameo.
Sephiroth is just as relevant as Tifa in KH2. The whole Cloud side-story is about his desire to beat Sephiroth and the overwhelming darkness inside him, Tifa comes in to aid him as an ally and help him achieve this. But it's the fact that Tifa is not in KH but is in KH2 that makes it pretty blatent that Sephiroth is always considered to be essential to Cloud's storyline but Tifa is not until KH2 where she was in fact just added to be the something that Cloud was running from.
And yes, Cloud never acts like a man who's had the love of his life ripped from him by death, either in FF7, or in AC/C. If that was the intention, one would THINK it might get mentioned at some point, especially when discussing his motivation. And yet, nothing. All he wants from the lady is forgiveness.
What about this description of Clotis and Cleriths?
I found it amusing.
Clotis
CLOUD/TIFA FANS -
Fans range from ages 13-20
Seems to be the "realists" out of the two groups (but still just as retarded)
Not as dellusional
"Tifa is the better character"
Is much harsher when it comes to the debate
Cleriths
CLOUD/AERIS FANS -
Overkill the color pink
Fans range from age 12 to 30
Are responsible for the most poorly organized AMV's on Youtube
Has a tendancy to sugarcoat things
Uses the whole "I'm a victim" facade
Dellusional and Desperate
"Aeris is the better character"
Similarities
SIMILARITIES -
Fanatical
Flamers
Spammers
Lurkers
The whole "Holier-Than-Thou" attitude
Write very poorly written and laughable lemons/fanfiction
Childish and immature admins
Websites contain some of the most repetitive and overused information that has been found either on the Cloti-Aikou network or Desitny Fulfilled
Were responsible for the Anti-Tifa and Anti-Aeris shrines, hatelistings, clubs and many other things
Both sides seem to be ripping each other off in many ways (EX: Eternal Love = Cloti, Endless Love = Cleris. CxA Forums = Venting Forum, Strifeheart = Opinions and Rants [which is obviously the same thing]. The list goes on)
Seem to rely more on what the staff of Square-Enix says about their preferred couple instead of thinking for themselves
Both use the whole Kingdom Hearts bullshit to the point where it makes me gag
The adults act like children
The children try (and fail) at acting like adults
"Also, the tower at night appears to be a date spot for the town’s young residents, and Cloud had also called Tifa out here and talked to her before leaving Nibelheim for Midgar."
