The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[Fairheartstrife]

Just the players, and technically no, it just means they aren't fading with time.

This. Thank you, Ryu.

Even if we take into consideration that the quote is implying AVALANCHE'S feelings about Aerith, it's stated in Tifa's ACC profile that "unlike Cloud" she's finding a reason to move on (the kids for example) whereas he's still dragging his past around...

Just something that caught my attention.

Also: That was a WALL O' TEXT... O.O

 

[Strangelove]

I was going to read Atlus Shrugged, but only because of Bioshock

That stuff I said I was going to look up: I went and looked up It was the same as this undying one.

想い (how it's written here) is more emotional, which can have romantic connotations (one of its definitions is love). It was one of the reasons I thought the various quotes for Cloud and Tifa sounded romantic. It's commonly used in novels or songs, etc.

It's more something you feel in your heart than think in your head. I think usually it's used with fondness, but as evident by this 'complicated feelings' thing. But being a living language, things like this can vary depending on the speaker. Looking up how people use it, most mention positive usages (romantic, recollection, care) but I did see one talkign about painful emotions.

(But since I've brought that up, that doesn't necessarily mean the Lifestream scene's were 'painful', since this word isn't the one for 'tender', which was 大切, which means important or treasured.)

Again, this doesn't seem to be a popular phrase, and I don't really know how other people would read it. I admittedly could see some romance in it, because of how I've seen the word used in the past.

But I've been feeling ill and tired today, so I'm stopping here

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Thank you, Hito.

I don't think anyone was arguing that "undying feelings" couldn't be romantic, but that given the context and narrative, it made more sense for it to be affection/respect, etc. as opposed to romantic love. And unless Tifa has a romantic wetsoft spot for Aerith I think I'm safe in believing the quote isn't inherently romantic, but as implied above.

Language is a living breathing thing and comprehension and context, inflection and implication are all very key in relating to it. Without that, well, it's meaningless drivel. In this instance, the context, the story and the known facts all point to "friendship" and not romance.

I've seen "shithead" used as a term of endearment and I've seen "Love you, too" as an insult. It's not the words, it's the context.

 

[Ⓐaron]

I was going to read Atlus Shrugged, but only because of Bioshock

That's pretty much the only reason it'd be worth reading but most of it is teal deer, especially the 50-page monologue

 

[Madame Mayor]

I've seen "shithead" used as a term of endearment and I've seen "Love you, too" as an insult. It's not the words, it's the context.

This.

 

[Raquelborn]

Keeping this short.

Except that Cloud and Barret remained together AFTER he was fully Cloud again to fight Sephiroth, and therefore, CLOUD developed his own bond with him. Just taking a moment to point out a particular gaping hole in that logic...

If he developed feelings of friendship for Aerith and they evidently remained once his personality restored, then remaining with Cloud in order to rebuild the relationship after he returns to himself isn't necessary. There's no gaping hole.

Yes, more is needed. That sentence you just said tells me nothing of what these feelings are. Are they love/romantic? Maybe. But I don't know, and I wouldn't want to make an assumption based on no information.

This is where I differ (apparently) from everyone else. I'd assume the feelings are romantic unless told otherwise. In Japanese the quote also sounds romantic apparently (thank you Hitoshura). But nevermind.

I also speak Japanese and am a native speaker of English and a Lit graduate besides. Your point?

I had no particular point, just that she isn't speaking out of complete ignorance.

This would work better if two of your biggest critics ON THAT SUBJECT were not Western world born, English Lit trained folks.

Which works in your favour but that doesn't mean everything I say is complete rubbish. De ja vu.

You assume sex is just grunting and sex.

Sex is sex.

And that is why you fail, my padawan.

I believe "padawan" is degrading? Well thank you Ryu, it's very kind of you to say that. ~Welcome to the Internet~


Now I'm off to sleep. And thank you Hitoshura for looking it up.

 

[Ⓐaron]

hito didn't say it definitely sounds romantic, he just said he "could see" the possibility of intended romantic context given usages he's seen in the past. Which I parsed as meaning the possibility is there that that's what the writers intended, but that it's just as possible that they didn't mean any romantic context at all. If he definitely saw an intended romantic context, he would've said as much

 

[Madame Mayor]

This is where I differ (apparently) from everyone else. I'd assume the feelings are romantic unless told otherwise. In Japanese the quote also sounds romantic apparently (thank you Hitoshura). But nevermind.

Aaron already explained it but I'll add that in that case it's exactly like the English usage, though "undying feelings" CAN be romantic, they aren't automatically without more context.

Also, I think both Ryu and I (as well as a few others) asked for points in the story where Cloud is shown to have romantic interest in Aerith. Because without that, you don't have anything to prove that these "undying feelings" could be romantic.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Now when the Zack in Cloud dissapeared feelings still remained for Barrett so they must of remained for Aerith.

I was unaware that Zack had feelings for Barret...

Also: HAVE. They must HAVE...

If he developed feelings of friendship for Aerith and they evidently remained once his personality restored, then remaining with Cloud in order to rebuild the relationship after he returns to himself isn't necessary. There's no gaping hole.

The gaping hole is in the assumption that one set of parameters is default for all characters. What holds true for Barret doesn't necessarily hold true for Aerith. The reason Cloud's feelings linger for Aerith is because she is no longer THERE to develop a more substantial emotional attachment to.

Sex is sex.

Strongly disagree here, but it's not really LTD related.

I believe "padawan" is degrading? Well thank you Ryu, it's very kind of you to say that. ~Welcome to the Internet~

Uhm, no, it's not degrading. But if that's the roughest intro to the internet you've gotten, then praise Yoda.

 

[Isabella]

WTF SERVER fjkdlafjkdl

Anyway, about this feelings biz ... maybe Nomura is vague about Cloud's feelings for Aerith because he doesn't intend to define them? He left it up to the player to decide to fall for her or not, after all.

Now before anyone shouts "Up to interpretation?!" I don't think the entire resolution to the love triangle is inconclusive. I think Cloud definitely loves Tifa and ends up with her no matter what. But if he left the initial attraction to Aerith up to the player, then the way I see it we have two options here: He has lingering feelings of attraction/affection but still loves Tifa, or, he has lingering feelings of friendship but still loves Tifa.

Either way, I don't think Cloud was passionately in love with Aerith. Curious, maybe. There was no time, qualitatively or quantitatively. For example, I might buy falling in love in two weeks if they'd had many meaningful heart to hearts, yada yada. But they were both living a lie most of those two weeks so how much quality bonding did they do?

IMHO, Cloud's undying feelings (plural) are a mix of things: friendship, regret, fondness, and yes, attraction, if you choose it to be there.

 

[Ryushikaze]

If he developed feelings of friendship for Aerith and they evidently remained once his personality restored, then remaining with Cloud in order to rebuild the relationship after he returns to himself isn't necessary. There's no gaping hole.

Yes, there is. Assuming the relationship remains the same pre and post.

This is where I differ (apparently) from everyone else. I'd assume the feelings are romantic unless told otherwise. In Japanese the quote also sounds romantic apparently (thank you Hitoshura). But nevermind.
I had no particular point, just that she isn't speaking out of complete ignorance.

Hito did not say that. He said it can be and he can't rule it out.

Which works in your favour but that doesn't mean everything I say is complete rubbish. De ja vu.

Never said it did. BUT you and your friend essentially said 'Always romantic, you're being idiotic to think otherwise.' Hence, me feeling the need to point out my credentials on this matter.

Sex is sex.

Sex is more than just plain sex. Sex is the act of sex and everything afore and after.

I believe "padawan" is degrading? Well thank you Ryu, it's very kind of you to say that. ~Welcome to the Internet~

Actually Padawan is the term for trainee Jedi, and is generally an affectionate term, though literally meaning the same as apprentice. The basic idea behind the quote is that your mindset is actually keeping you from realizing or doing something. Yoda said it, though it didn't have the padawan in it.

Also: HAVE. They must HAVE...

Yes, we need to keeping hammering HAVE not OF here.

Uhm, no, it's not degrading. But if that's the roughest intro to the internet you've gotten, then praise Yoda.

Praise, need I not. It's own reward, a job well done is.

 

[Vendel]

(But since I've brought that up, that doesn't necessarily mean the Lifestream scene's were 'painful', since this word isn't the one for 'tender', which was 大切, which means important or treasured.)

I have seen the pinkers bring up that Cloud's 'tender' feelings mean painful ones in the LS event.

The implication being that Cloud is speaking of his rejection from the group as a child etc. Rather than his feelings for Tifa. Because that would be crazy of course.

 

[Neutron Ronnie]

Incidentally, does anyone remember Cloud's reaction at Aerith's house, right after she tells him to rest before setting out for Sector 7? Iirc, it goes something like this.

Aerith: Cloud... Goodnight. *leaves*
Cloud: *scratches his head* Oh, man.

Now, I seem to remember Aerith being a bit girly-and-shy when she said goodnight... And it always struck me as if Cloud was feeling awkward about it... (Not a overwhelmingly good point for the Cloud/Aerith shippers, I thought. At least it would seem to indicate that Cloud wasn't madly head over heels for her from the start.) Anyone know what the original Japanese script says?

Edit: if anyone is interested, the scene is here, at around the 3:00 mark. My bad, she doesn't seem girly right there, but that's still the overall feel I had from her goodnight after her behavior all day. Too bad we don't have voices to judge by.

 

[Raquelborn]

hito didn't say it definitely sounds romantic, he just said he "could see" the possibility of intended romantic context given usages he's seen in the past. Which I parsed as meaning the possibility is there that that's what the writers intended, but that it's just as possible that they didn't mean any romantic context at all. If he definitely saw an intended romantic context, he would've said as much

Hence why I said sounds romantic. Not it is romantic.

Also, I think both Ryu and I (as well as a few others) asked for points in the story where Cloud is shown to have romantic interest in Aerith. Because without that, you don't have anything to prove that these "undying feelings" could be romantic.

Well these scenes have been brought up in this thread before (I brought up a couple) and they basically come down to interpretation and opinion about whether they are romantic or not. *shrug*

I was unaware that Zack had feelings for Barret...

Where did you get that from? ZackCloud is basically Cloud with some Zack (and Jenova). Once Cloud returned to himself the Zack in him dissapeared ya? But Cloud was still friends with Barrett so Cloud probably still saw Aerith as a friend too. That was what I was saying.

The gaping hole is in the assumption that one set of parameters is default for all characters. What holds true for Barret doesn't necessarily hold true for Aerith.

I just see no reason to think it is any different. Yes, she died but if anything that means his feelings towards her would have (I spotted that one ) probably stayed around the same as he couldn't interact with her once he was back to his true self.

Yes, there is. Assuming the relationship remains the same pre and post.

No, that it didn't change dramatically. But there you go, let's not go round in circles about this.

Hito did not say that. He said it can be and he can't rule it out.

I said "sounds" because I was aware of that. It sounds it but not necessarily is it.

Never said it did. BUT you and your friend essentially said 'Always romantic, you're being idiotic to think otherwise.' Hence, me feeling the need to point out my credentials on this matter.

No she said FHS was an idiot as a come back to her calling her an idiot. It was meant to be a joke. (I used a smilie to make that obvious).

Her and my opinion is that when you have undying feelings for another person, it is romantic unless made very clear otherwise. I have never said "always" "no way has any other meaning" "undying feelings can never mean anything else ever", I even repeated myself several times making it clear that I don't think this.

I basically felt it could be romantic in this case and so I argued for as to why.

Sex is more than just plain sex. Sex is the act of sex and everything afore and after.

And I think sex is for reproduction, but we're back to opinions again. Not to mention this isn't even relevant to the topic.

Actually Padawan is the term for trainee Jedi, and is generally an affectionate term, though literally meaning the same as apprentice. The basic idea behind the quote is that your mindset is actually keeping you from realizing or doing something. Yoda said it, though it didn't have the padawan in it.

Well I looked it up and...

A nickname used, often demeaningly, on someone trying to be as good as you are.

I doubt you were calling me a trainee Jedi. The way you used it also made it look like an insult or an attempt to be patronising, which I felt was unecessary.

Yes, we need to keeping hammering HAVE not OF here.

Oh I've been doing "of" instead of "have" for years, I don't even realise when I'm doing it. Why does it annoy you so much? If you're just being a grammar nazi then what the hell?? You failed to put in spaces and had some spelling mistakes that annoyed me but I wasn't going to bring them up just for the sake of it.

Now, I seem to remember Aerith being a bit girly-and-shy when she said goodnight... And it always struck me as if Cloud was feeling awkward about it... (Not a overwhelmingly good point for the Cloud/Aerith shippers, I thought. At least it would seem to indicate that Cloud wasn't madly head over heels for her from the start.) Anyone know what the original Japanese script says?

Edit: if anyone is interested, the scene is here, at around the 3:00 mark. My bad, she doesn't seem girly right there, but that's still the overall feel I had from her goodnight after her behavior all day. Too bad we don't have voices to judge by.

I always thought Cloud looked awkward that entire time in a way that suggested he didn't understand why this girl was clinging to him.

 

[mentaz]

I always thought Cloud looked awkward that entire time in a way that suggested he didn't understand why this girl was clinging to him.

I got that impression too when I played the game.

 

[I Am Not Me]

I basically felt it could be romantic in this case and so I argued for as to why.

Well you could have said so earlier to avoid all these text walls.

But then... did you just contradict yourself or what? I don't have good English, I might have misread it. But...

Her and my opinion is that when you have undying feelings for another person, it is romantic unless made very clear otherwise. -> I have never said "always" "no way has any other meaning" "undying feelings can never mean anything else ever", I even repeated myself several times making it clear that I don't think this.

Just clarifying. I got the impression that you thought "undying feelings can never mean anything else ever" because you kept arguing the fact that you think it's "romantic unless made very clear otherwise". How clear is "very clear" to you? Parameters, please.

My stand on this is that thinking that "undying feelings" is "romantic unless made very clear otherwise" is biased. I'm saying this because 1. there is nothing immediately romantic about "undying feelings". I have undying feelings for my late grandma, is that romantic?, 2. the word "feelings" don't automatically mean "love/romantic feelings". It could even mean "feelings of hatred" (ie. Sephiroth having undying feelings for Cloud, if you get my what I'm saying), 3. it's already your own interpretation of the two simple words, 4. they are two words being taken out of the bigger context, and 5. seriously, people, WTF.

The bias here is that those words already seem romantic to you, when all they do is describe feelings that are lingering/aren't dying, aka undying feelings. Taking it as romantic does not support the bigger picture, nor does the bigger picture support that take. The bigger picture being everything else besides those two words. Take in consideration too, that the quote does not mention only Cloud, but everyone else as well.

What I learned about things like this is that we should all look at these objectively first. The opinion that "undying feelings" connotes romance is already biased, thus subjective, which is not good for debates and whatnot.

You have to give support with data/facts/pancakes, with your opinion being backed up not by another person's opinion, or not by something out of canon/authorial intent.

I doubt you were calling me a trainee Jedi. The way you used it also made it look like an insult or an attempt to be patronising, which I felt was unecessary.

NO U

I'm called a padawan too. It was meant to be an affectionate term. The way it was used didn't seem like that to me.

Anyway, if the persons themselves told you just how they intended the word to be used, then I'd put more trust in what they said, because they're the ones who used it and they know best about what they used it for. Urban dictionary did not use it on you.






I made no sense, I know.

Edit: Pink text wall!

 

[Ryushikaze]

Hence why I said sounds romantic. Not it is romantic.

Except what Hito said was along the lines of 'Could sound', not 'sounds'

Where did you get that from? ZackCloud is basically Cloud with some Zack (and Jenova). Once Cloud returned to himself the Zack in him dissapeared ya? But Cloud was still friends with Barrett so Cloud probably still saw Aerith as a friend too. That was what I was saying.

Yes, and I'm saying while that makes sense, it's not assured. ZaCloud has quite different set of memories and mental structure than true Cloud, so while it's probable that his emotions are similar, it is not guarunteed that they are the same.

I just see no reason to think it is any different. Yes, she died but if anything that means his feelings towards her would have (I spotted that one ) probably stayed around the same as he couldn't interact with her once he was back to his true self.

Except the thing is, as TrueCloud, he can view his memories as ZaCloud from a different perspective, and may or may not hold the same emotional investment as ZaCloud.

No, that it didn't change dramatically. But there you go, let's not go round in circles about this.

No, not even dramatically. TruCloud and ZaCloud view things from a different perspective and can be considered like an MPD. Different personalities with access to the same memories, and differing personalities may like or dislike different things or feel differently about a person.

I said "sounds" because I was aware of that. It sounds it but not necessarily is it.

Where I sit, saying 'Sounds like X' implies you think it is X.

No she said FHS was an idiot as a come back to her calling her an idiot. It was meant to be a joke. (I used a smilie to make that obvious).

Her and my opinion is that when you have undying feelings for another person, it is romantic unless made very clear otherwise. I have never said "always" "no way has any other meaning" "undying feelings can never mean anything else ever", I even repeated myself several times making it clear that I don't think this.

You're contradicting yourself. "Undying feelings UNLESS MADE CLEAR OTHERWISE are romantic, but I'm not saying undying feelings are always romantic." You are saying when not specified as something else, undying feelings are romantic ones. This is the very issue we take issue with.

I basically felt it could be romantic in this case and so I argued for as to why.

That's fine. It's this broad brush swept over an english phrase we take issue with.

And I think sex is for reproduction, but we're back to opinions again. Not to mention this isn't even relevant to the topic.

And eating is for survival. But that doesn't mean we can't or or aren't supposed to enjoy it even if we don't need it to survive or in the case of sex, procreate (even infertile folks enjoy sex)

Well I looked it up and...

... and I should trust UD BECAUSE?...
It can be used as an insult. But so can 'darling' if you know what you're doing. It's not inherently insulting.

I doubt you were calling me a trainee Jedi. The way you used it also made it look like an insult or an attempt to be patronising, which I felt was unecessary.

A trainee JEDI, no, but with the same teacher/student dynamic and the filial nature depicted betwixt most Jedi and their padawan.

Oh I've been doing "of" instead of "have" for years, I don't even realise when I'm doing it. Why does it annoy you so much? If you're just being a grammar nazi then what the hell?? You failed to put in spaces and had some spelling mistakes that annoyed me but I wasn't going to bring them up just for the sake of it.

Because 'Could of' is an inherently meaningless phrase, and is about the same as people mistaking there and their or you're and your. It's one of those things everyone should be familiar with.
Especially when they're trying to argue linguistics with someone else.

I always thought Cloud looked awkward that entire time in a way that suggested he didn't understand why this girl was clinging to him.

Well, he didn't.

My stand on this is that thinking that "undying feelings" is "romantic unless made very clear otherwise" is biased. I'm saying this because 1. there is nothing immediately romantic about "undying feelings". I have undying feelings for my late grandma, is that romantic?, 2. the word "feelings" don't automatically mean "love/romantic feelings". It could even mean "feelings of hatred" (ie. Sephiroth having undying feelings for Cloud, if you get my what I'm saying), 3. it's already your own interpretation of the two simple words, 4. they are two words being taken out of the bigger context, and 5. seriously, people, WTF.

The bias here is that those words already seem romantic to you, when all they do is describe feelings that are lingering/aren't dying, aka undying feelings. Taking it as romantic does not support the bigger picture, nor does the bigger picture support that take. The bigger picture being everything else besides those two words. Take in consideration too, that the quote does not mention only Cloud, but everyone else as well.

What I learned about things like this is that we should all look at these objectively first. The opinion that "undying feelings" connotes romance is already biased, thus subjective, which is not good for debates and whatnot.

You have to give support with data/facts/pancakes, with your opinion being backed up not by another person's opinion, or not by something out of canon/authorial intent.

Pancakes ideally, should supplement, not replace facts.

I'm called a padawan too. It was meant to be an affectionate term. The way it was used didn't seem like that to me.

We still can't let Mei handle a lightsaber since the... incident.

Anyway, if the persons themselves told you just how they intended the word to be used, then I'd put more trust in what they said, because they're the ones who used it and they know best about what they used it for. Urban dictionary did not use it on you.

I now imagine UD as an entity randomly spouting memes at people.
Say... Mumbles is UD? Nah...

Speaking of UD, I decided to see if it had anything for Undying feelings.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Undying+feelings

Of the found entries containing both words, only the ludicrous Clerith entry even suggests that undying feelings = love, and the others specify undying love and feelings are separate, strange if it's assumed romantic unless otherwise specified.
Also, one of the entries is about Anakin Skywalker, so we have in fact come full circle.

...

...

'Only a master of evil, Darth.'

 

[Vendel]

This thread is giving me tender memories.....

Which reminds me....didn't Hito once bring up some official source that said Aerith and Zack return to the lifestream where they belong?

Or was that never confirmed?

 

[KissTheRain]

Aerith and Zack return to the lifestream where they belong?

Well isn't it obvious they belong there, I mean they are dead...

 

[Vendel]

Well isn't it obvious they belong there, I mean they are dead...

Well it would shoot down the entire "Aerith lives inside Cloud" theory your pinker buddies have.

Because of course that means she is literally inside his fucking body and can solidify just for him. Rather than it being a statement about the dead being remembered by the living.


Edit: I thought one particular youtard had given up. But they just keep posting. And they have brilliant arguements.

I'm just pointing out that it was their intention to have a romantic triangle between Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith. Therefore, we can say that Cloud and Aerith did share romantic feelings at one point. It was the intention of the game designers.
...............
if like a girl, and she likes me too, but we haven't actually agreed to date, then we're not in a relationship, regardless of how i feel about her. i don't mean to point out the obvious but it seems you're just not getting it.

Basically boils down to "C/T relationship cannot be proven 1000% so it isn't possible. Oh yeah and Cloud did love Aerith btw"


*refixes that wall, then smashed head through it*

 

[paoo]

Yeah, but the thing is... some people say that Aerith still lingers on in Cloud's body.

Oh, I didn't see.... Anyway. Do we really have to bring that up again?

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

oh wow, a heard of teal deers stopped by while I was gone. Amazing.

I also still don't understand how C/T needs a press conference, but C/A is assumed on faith alone. Hokay then.

 

[KissTheRain]

Well it would shoot down the entire "Aerith lives inside Cloud" theory your pinker buddies have.

Well I think the idea of that is just Aerith lives in Clouds heart as a metaphor not that she is exactly inside of him. Well, what I think at least. At least, doesn't it say in the DoC manual that Aerith is forever ingraved in Cloud's heart or am I wrong?

 

[paoo]

Well it would shoot down the entire "Aerith lives inside Cloud" theory your pinker buddies have.

God. Just stop that!

Well I think the idea of that is just Aerith lives in Clouds heart as a metaphor not that she is exactly inside of him. Well, what I think at least. At least, doesn't it say in the DoC manual that Aerith is forever ingraved in Cloud's heart or am I wrong?

Yeah, that's true. And why didn't they mention Zack in that?

 

[Isabella]

Well I think the idea of that is just Aerith lives in Clouds heart as a metaphor not that she is exactly inside of him. Well, what I think at least.

That may be what you think, but he's referring to the Cleriths who believe Aerith literally resides inside the Lifestream that's inside Cloud. Yes, there are a few out there who think that. I'd like to think (hope) they're the minority.