I count teenage years as being childhood, it’s just the adult years and test tube land that is shaky.
Cloud's Tube years are an empty and meaningless shitpile where he met no one if he met anyone at all, and his adult years being either when Tifa causes his mind to restore itself in the trainyard or when Tifa restores his mind proper. Where's the 'time to get over', again?
]To you, but many Cleriths believe Cloud and Aerith were in fact in love.
And many religious people believe Noah took two or seven of all animals on earth, fit them onto a wooden ark smaller than an aircraft carrier, and survived a global flood that should have pressure cooked them right out.
They also believe man was made from dirt and woman from his rib.
What people believe is meaningless.
]Well, I mean like in AC Cloud was pinning on fallen friends/*possibly* a lover(s?) and he had been the last two years, which I would count as not exactly getting over something.[
Pining? And no. He hadn't. Only for a brief period before he found Denzel, and the only after his happiness grew so much that the worry and guilt overwhelmed him.
Imo, it was more Aerith seeing the quote of “undying feelings” and in the DoC manual it speaking of him never forgetting her. So this is basically saying he isn’t exactly over her.
No, it's saying he'll never forget her. There is a teensy difference.
Then on the contrary with Tifa, he held out a crush 8 years minimum (8-16 possibly younger) and I’m just going to exclude the time he is in the test tube because us or him had no idea how we/him felt then. Then in the beginning of VII there are no specific feelings or examples of Cloud loving Tifa, but when they realize their “feelings” at the end of VII it seems things started again showing he was never over Tifa….but at the same time through the rest of the game he is speaking of avenging Aerith or meeting her once again showing he is still thinking of her.
Yes. She was a comrade who died unnecessarily trying to save the world. It makes sense for his motivational speeches to everyone to include her.
To say he got over one is foolish and not faithful to Cloud’s character because that is a big part, imo, to his character. It is also the main structure to keep both relationships going really. I don’t wanna be biased on the LTD and I think saying Cloud pins on both women is true, that’s who he is.
Problem is, the Aerith 'relationship' is still assumed, not validated.
Lol, I simply meant Clotis believe Cloti and Cleriths believe Clerith and nothing is gonna change about that. You believe Cloud loves Tifa and not Aerith, whereas they see Cloud loving Aerith and not Tifa. It's taking two completely seperate routes and with no exact proof either one is true.
This is getting waaaayyy too much like religion. T_T
More like Science v Religion. I've compared and contrasted this whole affair to the Evo/ Creo debates on a number of occasions, including the insular and strong centralized nature of one of the parties.
Hitoshura's already pointed out that the feelings can't be of guilt and sadness because of the kanji used.
I think you missed something, since he says he now thinks the kanji used may also be used for the 'complicated feelings' Tifa feels in AC towards Aerith, so it's not all happiness and sunshine.
He wasn't aware of how important she was by this point so while he would of been royally screwed for the future, his reaction wouldn't of necessarily been the same. She didn't develop a little world with Cloud like Aerith did so it probably would of been slightly different.
Technically, the quote you refer to never said the world did develop, just that Tifa saw it happening, but semantics.
Either way, comparing his reaction to Aerith's death with the reactions he'd of had to other characters' deaths which never even happened, is weak for obvious reasons; they never happened so we simply can't compare them properly, it's all hypothetical at the end of the day.
No, it's not weak. Replace Aerith's corpse with someone else and keep the words. Is that still romantic, y/n?
I never claimed she was an expert and neither did she, she is no more an expert than any of us but at least she can read Japanese. She's also English like me and I never said otherwise.
I also speak Japanese and am a native speaker of English and a Lit graduate besides. Your point?
She just doesn't understand why it's up for debate, it was nothing personal towards you. I brought her up to demonstrate that I'm not the only one who sees having "undying feelings" for another person as unquestionably romantic and therefore I'm not completely off my nut for thinking so.
You think it would come up more in all that English Lit I studied, then.
Well Hitoshura has pointed out they can't be feelings of guilt and sadness at any rate. He also stuck to "undying feelings" while he knows the romantic connotations associated with that.
Careful you don't overspeak...
If it was a strict translation that did not both itself with bringing across the same meaning the words have in Japanese as they do in English then maybe he would of chosen "feelings that do not die". But even then the romantic connotations are there. I'd imagine it's still a pretty epic way of describing feelings of frienship in Japanese.
You do know my issue is with the idea that undying feelings exclusively means romance in english, right?
They'd specify the feelings to avoid confusion via the words used in the rest of the sentence, or make it very clear from the immediate context.
But the point was to sow interest and confusion in the upcoming movie, a la the 'as for what the church brings, you'll find out ho ho ho' bit.
Seriously, maybe this is just some huge cultural difference because at least in the Western world, "undying feelings" carries romantic connotations. It really does, I'm not even the only one on this thread that says so.
This would work better if two of your biggest critics ON THAT SUBJECT were not Western world born, English Lit trained folks.
I've already put forward my argument for why it makes sense they could be romantic feelings. I've consider the immediate context for one thing, and the possibilities laid open by the original game. The movie does not make it clear otherwise either.
The movie shows a distinct lack of what one would expect were they romantic feelings.
Also, if your argument is 'could', you've been going about that most oddly.
Maybe you should re-outline all the things that convey he definitely does not love Aerith. I don't mean chuck up loads of Cloti evidence either because having feelings for one girl doesn't stop him having at least a remnant of feelings for another.
A: Can't prove a negative, assume the default B: Don't try shifting the fucking burden of proof.
I for one didn't need to be taught in class that the act of crying connotates sadness and misery and yet we all know that. Unless the context makes it very clear otherwise then we all assume that when a character is crying it is out of sadness.
The same applies for when one person has undying feelings for another, feelings that do not die, and so on, except the connotation is of romantic feelings as opposed to misery.
So, examples, plox?
Yes it is because some people seem so emotionally invested that they're unwilling to even consider that "undying feelings" could mean anything romantic. The reason is probably partly because it's refering to the other woman.
And some people seem so emotionally invested that they're unwilling to even consider that "undying feelings" could mean anything that's romantic.
My POINT is that undying feelings are not AUTOMATICALLY romantic.
Now if this quote was talking about Cloud's feelings for Tifa, then I doubt everyone would be getting so ruffled like this because it favours their favorite pairing.
Not really. It supports nothing on its own. Only with the context would it matter. All it would tell us is whatever feelings that the context tells us he has, is not likely to fade.
Not "automatically" but it has strong romantic connotations. Even more so than "feelings" on their own.
Strong, yes, but not romantic connotations.
That's essentially your opinion.
Pot Kettle Black at the moment.
No, my argument is that they could be romantic in nature and this would also make sense given some of ZackCloud's actions.
Then do not say it MUST be romantic in nature.
"Mutual feelings" has more possibilities than "undying feelings" and yet we can agree easily on what the "mutual feelings" means because of what we know of Cloud and Tifa . "Undying feelings" has become an issue because it sounds romantic, it could be romantic and actually, it'd explain some of Cloud's actions as ZackCloud towards Aerith.
So you keep asserting, but it seems a lack of proffered evidence is at hand.
Otherwise you're just attempting to chuck this all up to a friendship that formed in just two weeks which makes some of Cloud's actions seem a bit OTT.
And a romance in those two weeks ISN'T a bit off kilter in its own right?
I'm speaking of "undying feelings", not "by your side". "Undying feelings" has much stronger romantic connotations.
Out of context, NEITHER has any romantic connotations.
By that argument Cloud does not love Aerith in the same way as his comrades and the viewers. So Cloud has feelings for her too but he doesn't love her? If his love was platonic (and this is the way love is used in the previous sentence) you'd expect them to reuse it.
Or perhaps IT'S NOT LOVE. PERHAPS THEY ARE SIMPLY BENIGN FEELINGS LIKE FRIENDSHIP AND RESPECT AND APPRECIATION. You seem Hell bent to ASSUME a romance here.
Let me be VERY fucking explicit here.
PLAYERS have LOVE and ALSO FEELINGS. TWO DISTINCT THINGS. FEELINGS. ARE. DISTINGUISHED. FROM. LOVE. CLOUD. ALSO. HAS. FEELINGS. NOT 'OF HIS OWN', NOT 'DISTINCT FROM THE PLAYERS', JUST THE FEELINGS THAT WERE ALREADY DISTINGUISHED FROM LOVE.
Sorry about that, but I hate having to make this point over and over again. Now, hopefully this will nod need to be repeated further.
Except they are undying unlike the rest. So they all love her as a friend but only Cloud will be her friend forever?
Except Avalanche isn't part of the group with love and feelings, but of Aerith's description.
Okay, I did not know, I know for the future. As far as I was aware it was just an interview.
Nope. In official work.
As I said before, why would he try and baffle us about Cloud's feelings? It's not a plot twist and it doesn't even change anything so why try and throw us off over it. It sounds like he's just chatting about Aerith and how he thinks everyone feels about her.
He's plugging a movie that hasn't come out yet. He's drumming up interest by saying nothing in a way that can mean anything.
So if he had feelings for Aerith as ZackCloud then they could have carried forward when he was restored as the true Cloud. You're basically agreeing with me here.
In principle, yes, but in practicum, no. My point is that you can't assume, even if there are Zacloud feelings, that they go forward to Truecloud exactly the same.
That's why we're discussing "undying feelings".
That and you made an egregious grammatical flub. "of" is not correct to follow could or would, as have is the active component in that phrase.
Yes, I'm covering my back. If I say "did have" everyone will jump unless we clear up whether or not "undying feelings" is implying something romantic. As far as I can tell it is and it makes sense. Hence my argument.
Indeed.
No problem. It's what this thread is all about.
Actually it's a minor tangent from source, but pfeh.
Actually Z sounds like, while they're feelings are along the same lines (basically strong positive affection), he/she has feelings that are much deeper than those of X. This is what the quote regarding Cloud and co suggests too. Avalanche and the viewers have feelings and love for Aerith but while Cloud's are similar, his are undying in nature. The fact that his will never die indicates deeper feelings for Aerith than everyone else.
But not automatically romantic in nature, which is my point.And deeper than the audience. As previously mentioned, the former comrades are part of a separate clause.
I guess then, you could brings it back to the romantic connotations of having undying feelings for another person and all that that means. But even without that, it's being implied that Cloud's feelings of affection are stronger and more significant than those of everyone else.
Not EVERYONE ELSE.
But let's not speaks of Marlene's deviancy here.
His feelings towards her are being singled out. Surely that's obvious whether you believe them to be romantic or not?
Well, yes. But it's not unusual to do so for the main character like that.
So you're suggesting he played 'Cloud has deep feelings for Aerith by the way' but then oh no that's certainly not what's conveyed in AC? Maybe if it was about something significant to the plot, e.g. the return of Sephiroth, who Kadaj is or whether or not Aerith was going to make an appearence and so on then that'd be easier to believe. Instead we have him talking about Cloud's feelings for another character which arguably aren't even that relevant to the plot of the movie and don't affect how one would watch it anyway. It sounds more like he was just giving an answer to a question and wasn't intending it to be some kind of red herring.
Except a big portion of the movie IS Cloud's lingering guilt and being able to move forward and the peace of mind he can get by meeting with Aerith, so it is about the plot of the movie. I believe the question was asking about the movie as well, was it not, Hito?
So feelings for Aerith exist that will not die.
More or less. Though I do recall there was an ima/now in there, but cba to check.
[qutoe]Lingering on feelings of frienship still sounds daft. Lingering on romantic feelings yet again fits it better.[/quote]
Lingering feelings of guilt, of appreciation, of appreciation, of loss, of plenty of things linger well.
Well that's your problem.
When "undying feelings" are not being used to mean romantic feelings it is made clear by the wording and context. E.g. undying feelings of remorse. The only other time wording is not really necessary is when it's undying feelings of hatred, which the context will always make very clear.
See, I don't agree. Some of the first undying feelings I ever 'experienced' were in old Samurai films, for well respected comrades in arms.
! That carries the same romantic conno..
Been watching Wild Zero?
Unless I missed something (please correct me if I have) then Hito basically highlighted that the literal translation is 'not dying' but when it's translated with conveying the same meaning in mind, "undying" does just fine.
It does, but my point is you're reading from the translation a meaning not intended by the original language. Much like the colloquialisms Hito used previosly.
So had she of lived Cloud probably would of been more friendly towards Aerith too. It still stands that any feelings Cloud had as ZackCloud didn't dramatically change once he returned to normal. The feelings and relationships he had with all his allies/friends remained the same, it was only the way he acted that changed due to the restoration of his original personality. Therefore any romantic feelings he had for Aerith would of remained the same too, only his behaviour might of changed.
HAVE. HAVE HAVE HAVE HAVE.
And no. They COULD HAVE. Not WOULD. COULD. Possibility, not definitively.
These are examples in which it's clear that the undying feelings cannot be romantic. You can't have romantic feelings for somone else's betrayal or death for example.
MY POINT is that they were stated as undying feelings and then later clarified. We didn't assume he had a love for his brother when he first mentioned his undying emotion and desire to find the man.
If you were to tell me you had undying feelings for the book Twilight then I'd assume you were being sarcastic and therefore you hate it, but it is the basic understanding that undying feelings usually refer to romantic and intensely affectionate feelings that allows me to determine that you are indeed using sarcasm.
No. No sarcasm. I have undying feelings for the twilight series.
These feelings are not romantic. They are not like. They are hate and revulsion.
Cloud has undying feelings for another person however and I doubt Nomura was using sarcasm.
I WASN'T EITHER.
Now, I am NOT saying those feelings are HATE. I'm saying those feelings are not automatically romantic.
Hey, it sounds accurate! Worth a try.
Congrats, you are now a C/A translator!
And the context would have to make all these non-romantic feelings very clear. What we can gather from the context of this undying feelings quote is that it's talking about each person's own affectionate feelings for Aerith,
Affection and feelings, with feelings being a much more vague and general term, and probably less in the direction of affection.
and this is made clear by the pervious sentence and "also" indicating that Cloud's feelings are along the same lines, affectionate.
No, his feelings are also feelings. The affection is a distinct concept from feelings.
Yes but it also means we can't throw the possibility out the window.
I rarely do. But I don't entertain possibilities willy nilly either.
That doesn't change that Cloud's feelings are being distinguished from their's, yet must also be ones of affection.
If they were also of affection, one would expect them to be called 'affection' as they were in the previous clause.
That's the same as saying it's in his subconcious because the feelings, thoughts and motivations present in our subconcious are constantly affecting our concious thoughts and actions. But yeah, splitting hairs.
I'm saying he's aware, but not wholly.
Well considering that quotes are usually the evidence and it's the very meaning of a quote that's being disputed here, it's difficult for me to provide more 'evidence' when we're basically arguing over how this one quote should be interpreted.
Outside context examples for Undying feelings for a start.
Well well, point taken. Tifa's either a cheeky flirt or just maybe Cloud doesn't mind her touching him there because she's already touched him in more intimate places. Who knows..
'Special hand motion'. Also, the BJ/ Oppai film someone made years ago.
This is true, I shall not hold back next time!
I like pie.
Although the primary focus is Aerith and Cloud and how he's reacting to her murder.
The words are about his reaction to her murder, but also to her murderer. It's really about the brutality of death and the pain and rage and everything else along those lines.
Yes it did. Aerith just really meant a lot to him whether you see his feelings as romantic or not.
And no one wishes to deny this, I think.
A KISS would be sweeter. Come on, would you not go crazy if he pulled her into an embrace, caressed her face and pulled her tenderly into a liplock? That would send me round the bend more than a load of grunting and sweat. But meh, boys...
You assume sex is just grunting and sex. But no, a kissing moment wouldn't be bad, either, but I'd rather Cec/Ros get one first.
Realising he has feelings for Tifa doesn't automatically smash any feelings he had for Aerith.
No, but doing so almost immediately and having no real mention of these feelings LATER with no ACTUAL confirmation, just misdirections prior, is meant to lead you to think he might, as the later realizations come in and change your perspective.
When I read that I immediately recalled scenes in samurai films I've seen in which a samurai is craddling his dead love interest in his arms and plotting avengement against the man or thing that killed her.
Oh, that too, but the happened as often with the dudes as with the ladies.
I don't know about cop shows but if I saw one cop pouring over another cop like Cloud was over Aerith I'd think they were either involved or next of kin.
It happens more often than you might think.
What's your deal with "emo"? Cloud is an emo in AC/C, he's being adorably unusually emotional for a man.
Hate the term, it means nothing and everything now, is horridly overused, and in general, it's just a bad word to use.
Probably the shock. Cloud was craddling Aerith in his arms too don't forget. That's something only lovers, next of kin and parents (to their children) tend to do.
Or children to their mothers. And he wasn't cradling her, at least not for most of the time, IIRC.
Okay well I guess different people just interpret that line differently.
Indeed.
So he was feeding the LTD portion of the fandom deliberately then? Well we're only a small portion to be honest and I doubt he cares about us as much as simply bringing the truth across. If he was going to say anything to create a buzz it would be about key aspects of the plot such as who Kadaj and his gang were, and the return of Sephiroth.
As I recall, he was asked about the basic subject. He did speak about the triplets elsewhere, though he didn't talk much about Sephy til the movie's release.
I'm not trying to read too much into this. "Undying feelings" has romantic connotations and I don't think it's completely out of the question that Cloud may still have some feelings for Aerith even if his 'true' love is Tifa, it'd explain some of his behaviour for one thing. Therefore, I'm trying to make some people see this even though they seem unwilling to even consider it.
What we have issue with is the idea that is MUST be romantic in nature.
Well this thread is just one big pot of ludicrousness, but I love it.
Indeed.
It's talking about how different people feel towards Aerith, I wouldn't say the context is sparse.
Yeah, but it doesn't say what exactly feelings are. Hence we look to the greater context.
I'll just paste what she said to me because it's easier.
I mean it just seems a bit stupid, 'undying feelings' meaning something other than love.
Undying feeling for her is definitely romance, but if it's not that then it's quite badly written to misguide like that.
She basically thinks what I think but I double checked with her before I continued to argue with the rest of you.[/quote]
All I'm saying is that Undying feelings are not 'definitely' romance.
Well then you have him taking refuge in Aerith's church and her offering her hand to him on the flight up to Bahamut. Nothing stated or spoken, but possibly implying a lingering romantic attachment to her. But hey, this is one of those times where everyone's interpretations of what is meant by scene x and by action y will differ and no agreement can be reached.
Wait, I could see the 'lingering feelings' though not of romance from his church stay, same as visiting Zack's grave, but how does the one last push imply that?
Maybe she said he was her koibito because he actually was? Either that or you have to seriously consider that she may be utterly deluded and insane.
Or waxing romantically on the past. In either case, she kinda HAS to be mistaken- as Cloud was clueless and there was no actual romantic relationship there- unless we go with the beloved meaning of the word.
You just said that she was in denial over being in love with the real Cloud when she had actually fallen for the Zack in ZackCloud and I completely agree with you, but that doesn't mean she was in denial and confused about her relationship with ZackCloud when she was still living.
But there WAS no such relationship. He was blatantly clueless to her intent. How do you have a relationship with someone who doesn't know it?
No, "undying"/"feelings that will never die" was used for Cloud but not for the players and comrades. This indicates Cloud's feelings are of a stronger and deeper nature.
Jutst the players, and technically no, it just means they aren't fading with time.
Aerith making him laugh really. It's the prime example of how they had a chemistry probably not that dissimilar from what she had with Zack, as ZackCloud is exactly what it says on the tin.
The specifically stated as when he's being controlled by Jenova laugh. The laugh that's at her expense.
What reason do you have to suggest that in this case the usual idiomatic meaning is not valid, other than it never being undisputably stated anywhere else that Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith?
That idioms do not translate automatically along languages.
And that this particular idiom is not as narrow as claimed.
Except Cloud's feelings are undying/will never die. More significance is being placed on the nature of Cloud's feelings over the feelings of the players and comrades. The latter's feelings are platonic, so it follows that Cloud's feelings are more than that.
No, that does not follow. An undying light need not be brighter than a briefly burning one.
Oh I don't know. That quote says everything to me and it's what turned me from unsure to satisfied with whom Cloud loves by the end of the compilation. I really don't know what SE could possibly add to that line to make it any clearer.
The type of feelings, or more external context, for one. Can never get too much of that.
It doesn't tease because hardly anyone cares about who Cloud loves compared to what the plot is going to entail, and what the awesome action scenes will look like and so on. If he wanted to tease he'd talk about that, not chuck red herrings about his romantic interest.
No, that's AGAIN assuming it's ABOUT ROMANCE. THAT'S what I mean by reading things into it.
What Hito has said is that it can't be undying feelings of guilt and he doesn't see what's wrong with Cloud loving both.
You shouldn't be quoting him on that while he's double checking his previous statement.
In a later post he said the same kanji for undying may have been used for Tifa's feelings towards Aerith (or something like that). If that's the case then maybe it changes things but I don't recall Hito saying anywhere that it definitely doesn't have romantic connotations in Japanese.
...sigh. It doesn't haveto say 'definitely doesn't. You need to show it does.
Obviously the person he has in his arms at that moment will change whether it comes across as romantic or not. If Tifa was there I'd say there was some romantic hints there (as I kind of do for when he finds her in AC) but if Barrett was there I wouldn't because he's obviously a friend and a comrade and that's it.
Then you are reading the romance into the scene not based on what he does or said, but because Aerith is there. Assuming it, again.
Yes, that helps. If a rabid Twilight fan girl was to say the same thing to me however, "I have undying feelings for this book" I'd assume she was speaking of intense affection for it rather than using sarcasm
NOT SARCASTIC.
because it makes the most sense considering what I know about her. In order to go through this thought process however, I am still working on the basic knowing that "undying feelings" are usually romantic/highly affectionate in nature.
And that is why you fail, my padawan.
I sort of expect daffylocks to troll this forum by calling that a wall of text, now.
