The First Epic LTD of TLS forums
- Thread starter Strangelove
- Start date
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Avenger007
Rookie Adventurer
Re: Love Triangle Discussion
Been a little bit but I'll respond to the people who asked me questions:
I didn't respond to this thread to throw around "evidence" for either side of the argument. Like many times I've seen before, and yes, on both sides of the argument, people will usually over scrutinize, derail, find erroneous fault, and red herring the poster to the point where the responder has significantly felt the "ha- i gotcha" moment of pridefull glee and feels they have critically destroyed any credibility the poster could even muster. In manifesting these feelings, the responder usually will eventually give and fall away from logic and argumentative case, only to be filled with any demanding or demeaning catchphrases, anecdotes, or just plain insults. This ultimately leads to hatefilled speech and meaningless back and forth retorts which have absolutely nothing todo with the topic at hand.
No.. I came here to say the let enough be enough. Both sides are set in their ways, and these continual disdainful LTD topics usually find themselves to be the pit, the black sheep, the disgusting part of any forum community.
The LTD has been decided in people's individual minds... let it rest.
But if you do decide to continue down this argumentative path, Let me make one point (and I hope Hitoshura doesn't consider this too much off topic, and if so..i apologize.)
Arguing the LTD in this kind of matter is destructive to the game's reputation, inescapably harmful to the forum community in which it makes itself present, and takes away from the main concept of the purpose of FFVII: to enjoy.
I have no problems nor qualms suggesting that the LTD is destructive to the game's reputation. Its not unknown that this game has a reputation for being overrated and having a zelous rabid fanbase. I honestly believe that the LTD can incite such rabid fanboyism that outsiders can see us as crazy. WE look deeply into argumentative cases, note the consequentail or inconsequential motivations and thought processes behind elipses from a pixilated character.
We try and look for definitive answers in a medium that is bereft of them in the first place. We spew our faith and devotion over to other sites that care not for an answer, even times to places we aren;t looking for validation. I'm not saying the LTD is the main cause for the seemingly overrated reputation of FFVII, but the way people fanatically argue over it can lead people to believe its overeatted and its rich fanbase ridiculous and not credible.
Second, the LTD is nothing but harmful to the forum community in which it presents itself for two main reasons. The first reason is it angrily polarizes the community where it is not needed. As mentioned earlier, a poster, even an innocent poster, can come into an LTD debate simply wanting answers or to discuss, and find themselves ripped apart, insulted, and made to feel as a laughing stock bumbling idiot.
Why, after being treated such a way, would that poster want to ever again contribute, or even come back to a community that has treated him so. Over time, a forum community that allows this continuing behavoir will find itself devoid of large groups or participators, fan bases, or forum posters because who would want to continually be insulted? And all of that over an over talked about, inconsequential 1 forum topic?
Secondly, The LTD gives rise and credence to the age old internet equation: Anonymity + Audience= Total F*ckwad. I think this is self evident. You've all seen it... blind insults, insults used to try and further individual points, puns and allegories which only serve for the poster to feel intelligent and the " ah.. gotcha", you have even seen it in this particular forum topic. The LTD attracts these people like flies. They are the ones who create the most polarization, who harm the reputation the most.
Finally, FFVII is a game meant to enjoy, not a game to get all fired about about your views and insult those different than you. People, I believe, naturally want to come to a game forum to express and find commonalities, discuss and understand different viewpoints, and overall further enrich their gaming experiences... not come here and fight and be insulted.
So please, as a forum community, if you want to discuss the LTD, if you want to educate, educate people on how you see it.. listen to their sides, maybe you'll find something about the game you never saw or paid attention to before. Make this a topic of fun and enriching the gaming experience.. not about which side you believe to be correct, and not about proving a story.
So.. with that.. if anyone wants to respond to me.. here's what you can do:
1. agree with me, that the LTD discussion in this form is harmful, and discuss ways to not make it so
2. Disagree with me and say the LTD in this argumentative way is helpful.
3. Pick apart my argument, insult me and my common sense to try and give validation to your point, throw inarguable off topic points to try and discredit me, and let the shit continue to fly on an old beaten to death horse.
So please.. lets do 1 or 2.. I'd like to discuss my views, and I'm sure others would to, and no.. my veiw point is not Cleris.
Been a little bit but I'll respond to the people who asked me questions:
I didn't respond to this thread to throw around "evidence" for either side of the argument. Like many times I've seen before, and yes, on both sides of the argument, people will usually over scrutinize, derail, find erroneous fault, and red herring the poster to the point where the responder has significantly felt the "ha- i gotcha" moment of pridefull glee and feels they have critically destroyed any credibility the poster could even muster. In manifesting these feelings, the responder usually will eventually give and fall away from logic and argumentative case, only to be filled with any demanding or demeaning catchphrases, anecdotes, or just plain insults. This ultimately leads to hatefilled speech and meaningless back and forth retorts which have absolutely nothing todo with the topic at hand.
No.. I came here to say the let enough be enough. Both sides are set in their ways, and these continual disdainful LTD topics usually find themselves to be the pit, the black sheep, the disgusting part of any forum community.
The LTD has been decided in people's individual minds... let it rest.
But if you do decide to continue down this argumentative path, Let me make one point (and I hope Hitoshura doesn't consider this too much off topic, and if so..i apologize.)
Arguing the LTD in this kind of matter is destructive to the game's reputation, inescapably harmful to the forum community in which it makes itself present, and takes away from the main concept of the purpose of FFVII: to enjoy.
I have no problems nor qualms suggesting that the LTD is destructive to the game's reputation. Its not unknown that this game has a reputation for being overrated and having a zelous rabid fanbase. I honestly believe that the LTD can incite such rabid fanboyism that outsiders can see us as crazy. WE look deeply into argumentative cases, note the consequentail or inconsequential motivations and thought processes behind elipses from a pixilated character.
We try and look for definitive answers in a medium that is bereft of them in the first place. We spew our faith and devotion over to other sites that care not for an answer, even times to places we aren;t looking for validation. I'm not saying the LTD is the main cause for the seemingly overrated reputation of FFVII, but the way people fanatically argue over it can lead people to believe its overeatted and its rich fanbase ridiculous and not credible.
Second, the LTD is nothing but harmful to the forum community in which it presents itself for two main reasons. The first reason is it angrily polarizes the community where it is not needed. As mentioned earlier, a poster, even an innocent poster, can come into an LTD debate simply wanting answers or to discuss, and find themselves ripped apart, insulted, and made to feel as a laughing stock bumbling idiot.
Why, after being treated such a way, would that poster want to ever again contribute, or even come back to a community that has treated him so. Over time, a forum community that allows this continuing behavoir will find itself devoid of large groups or participators, fan bases, or forum posters because who would want to continually be insulted? And all of that over an over talked about, inconsequential 1 forum topic?
Secondly, The LTD gives rise and credence to the age old internet equation: Anonymity + Audience= Total F*ckwad. I think this is self evident. You've all seen it... blind insults, insults used to try and further individual points, puns and allegories which only serve for the poster to feel intelligent and the " ah.. gotcha", you have even seen it in this particular forum topic. The LTD attracts these people like flies. They are the ones who create the most polarization, who harm the reputation the most.
Finally, FFVII is a game meant to enjoy, not a game to get all fired about about your views and insult those different than you. People, I believe, naturally want to come to a game forum to express and find commonalities, discuss and understand different viewpoints, and overall further enrich their gaming experiences... not come here and fight and be insulted.
So please, as a forum community, if you want to discuss the LTD, if you want to educate, educate people on how you see it.. listen to their sides, maybe you'll find something about the game you never saw or paid attention to before. Make this a topic of fun and enriching the gaming experience.. not about which side you believe to be correct, and not about proving a story.
So.. with that.. if anyone wants to respond to me.. here's what you can do:
1. agree with me, that the LTD discussion in this form is harmful, and discuss ways to not make it so
2. Disagree with me and say the LTD in this argumentative way is helpful.
3. Pick apart my argument, insult me and my common sense to try and give validation to your point, throw inarguable off topic points to try and discredit me, and let the shit continue to fly on an old beaten to death horse.
So please.. lets do 1 or 2.. I'd like to discuss my views, and I'm sure others would to, and no.. my veiw point is not Cleris.
Madame Mayor
Banned
Re: Love Triangle Discussion
What I don't understand is why you give the CxA side any credit when there's nothing there. It has been officially stated in more than one way in many different official sources that Cloud and Tifa are together romantically, and we have yet to hear that Cloud even felt anything other than friendship for Aerith, and that Aerith had any attraction to the real Cloud.
The debate is over, yet there are still some people who don't want to let it go. I have a best friend who loves CxA, canon or not, and when she plays the game or thinks about the story, that's what she sees. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I like to think Aerith felt something for Tseng. I don't care if that's canon or not, and I never try to pretend it is.
However, when CxA people do try to pretend that it's canon, these LTD debates come up. The Cloti side with simple quotes stating the truth, and the Clerith side ignoring them and using interpretations and poor translations to try and prove their side hasn't "lost" let. I have yet to meet someone who believes Clerith is canon who isn't a shipper with a lot of emotion invested in this. Heck, some even take it as a personal attack that Clerith isn't canon, but oh well. Truth can hurt I suppose.
What I don't understand is why you give the CxA side any credit when there's nothing there. It has been officially stated in more than one way in many different official sources that Cloud and Tifa are together romantically, and we have yet to hear that Cloud even felt anything other than friendship for Aerith, and that Aerith had any attraction to the real Cloud.
The debate is over, yet there are still some people who don't want to let it go. I have a best friend who loves CxA, canon or not, and when she plays the game or thinks about the story, that's what she sees. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I like to think Aerith felt something for Tseng. I don't care if that's canon or not, and I never try to pretend it is.
However, when CxA people do try to pretend that it's canon, these LTD debates come up. The Cloti side with simple quotes stating the truth, and the Clerith side ignoring them and using interpretations and poor translations to try and prove their side hasn't "lost" let. I have yet to meet someone who believes Clerith is canon who isn't a shipper with a lot of emotion invested in this. Heck, some even take it as a personal attack that Clerith isn't canon, but oh well. Truth can hurt I suppose.
Max Payne
Banned
- AKA
- Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
Re: Love Triangle Discussion
[quote author=Balthea link=topic=53.msg1799#msg1799 date=1229116954]
What I don't understand is why you give the CxA side any credit when there's nothing there. It has been officially stated in more than one way in many different official sources that Cloud and Tifa are together romantically, and we have yet to hear that Cloud even felt anything other than friendship for Aerith, and that Aerith had any attraction to the real Cloud.
The debate is over, yet there are still some people who don't want to let it go. I have a best friend who loves CxA, canon or not, and when she plays the game or thinks about the story, that's what she sees. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I like to think Aerith felt something for Tseng. I don't care if that's canon or not, and I never try to pretend it is.
However, when CxA people do try to pretend that it's canon, these LTD debates come up. The Cloti side with simple quotes stating the truth, and the Clerith side ignoring them and using interpretations and poor translations to try and prove their side hasn't "lost" let. I have yet to meet someone who believes Clerith is canon who isn't a shipper with a lot of emotion invested in this. Heck, some even take it as a personal attack that Clerith isn't canon, but oh well. Truth can hurt I suppose.
[/quote]
Silly internet person, TRUE LOVE CONQUERS ALL.
[quote author=Balthea link=topic=53.msg1799#msg1799 date=1229116954]
What I don't understand is why you give the CxA side any credit when there's nothing there. It has been officially stated in more than one way in many different official sources that Cloud and Tifa are together romantically, and we have yet to hear that Cloud even felt anything other than friendship for Aerith, and that Aerith had any attraction to the real Cloud.
The debate is over, yet there are still some people who don't want to let it go. I have a best friend who loves CxA, canon or not, and when she plays the game or thinks about the story, that's what she sees. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I like to think Aerith felt something for Tseng. I don't care if that's canon or not, and I never try to pretend it is.
However, when CxA people do try to pretend that it's canon, these LTD debates come up. The Cloti side with simple quotes stating the truth, and the Clerith side ignoring them and using interpretations and poor translations to try and prove their side hasn't "lost" let. I have yet to meet someone who believes Clerith is canon who isn't a shipper with a lot of emotion invested in this. Heck, some even take it as a personal attack that Clerith isn't canon, but oh well. Truth can hurt I suppose.
[/quote]
Silly internet person, TRUE LOVE CONQUERS ALL.
Rinoa
Stargazer
- AKA
- Selene, Sheila
Re: Love Triangle Discussion
[quote author=Ryushikaze link=topic=53.msg1471#msg1471 date=1228981748]
Also, Rinny, where's that cheesecake-alicious Rinoa Av come from and whose body did they harvest for it? Or is it simply a cheesecakey custom render?
[/quote]
http://whispyr.livejournal.com/23292.html#cutid1
pic is from dead fantasy i'm guessing (I haven't watched the latest)
[quote author=Avenger007 link=topic=53.msg1480#msg1480 date=1228988985]
wouldn't the writers have EXPLICITLY said Cloud loves Tifa or Cloud loves Aerith? And by EXPLICITLY I mean used the words, Cloud loves Tifa or Cloud loves Aerith?
[/quote]
It's not necessary, and they've never had to such with the 'official' pairings.
They assume gamers have more braincells than ~shippers~.
[quote author=Isabella link=topic=53.msg1777#msg1777 date=1229111462]
No, Cloud's perversion is stretched panties.
[/quote]
And that's canon, to boot.
Cloud
"Yeah, I went to Tifa's room. There, I..."
(What did you do at Nibelheim...?)
Cloud
"I played the piano!"
"I looked in the drawers!"
"I spent the night and went to the reactor in Mt. Nibel. I was
excited about it."
"Because that was my first mission after becoming First Class in
SOLDIER."
[quote author=Ryushikaze link=topic=53.msg1471#msg1471 date=1228981748]
Also, Rinny, where's that cheesecake-alicious Rinoa Av come from and whose body did they harvest for it? Or is it simply a cheesecakey custom render?
[/quote]
http://whispyr.livejournal.com/23292.html#cutid1
pic is from dead fantasy i'm guessing (I haven't watched the latest)
[quote author=Avenger007 link=topic=53.msg1480#msg1480 date=1228988985]
wouldn't the writers have EXPLICITLY said Cloud loves Tifa or Cloud loves Aerith? And by EXPLICITLY I mean used the words, Cloud loves Tifa or Cloud loves Aerith?
[/quote]
It's not necessary, and they've never had to such with the 'official' pairings.
They assume gamers have more braincells than ~shippers~.
[quote author=Isabella link=topic=53.msg1777#msg1777 date=1229111462]
No, Cloud's perversion is stretched panties.
[/quote]
And that's canon, to boot.
Cloud
"Yeah, I went to Tifa's room. There, I..."
(What did you do at Nibelheim...?)
Cloud
"I played the piano!"
"I looked in the drawers!"
"I spent the night and went to the reactor in Mt. Nibel. I was
excited about it."
"Because that was my first mission after becoming First Class in
SOLDIER."
Max Payne
Banned
- AKA
- Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
Re: Love Triangle Discussion
Pfft, you're all delusional.
Cloud loves Aeris. Clearly knowing a girl for a couple weeks is enough time to fall madly in love versus having a crush on a girl you've known all your life.
Admit defeat and save face peons.
Pfft, you're all delusional.
Cloud loves Aeris. Clearly knowing a girl for a couple weeks is enough time to fall madly in love versus having a crush on a girl you've known all your life.
Admit defeat and save face peons.
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
Re: Love Triangle Discussion
Avenger, I see your point, but I think you are mistaken on two counts-
Firstly, the LTD is no different from any other argument about FF7 or any other FF. It was with equal fervor to the shippers that people defended the notions that Vincent was Sephiroth's poppa, the Jenova was the one in control, that Ultimecia was Rinoa in the future, that FF10 and FF7 do not share continuity, and I still see people arguing that Laguna isn't Squall's dad. If anything about the LTD that reflects poorly about the FF7 fandom, it would be the way in which it is conducted, but even there, I don't particularly see the problem with mocking the utterly absurd notions that sometimes get thrown about. The reason is largely because of my second point.
This isn't a preferential matter. Like Hitobito and a lot of other people, I have no emotional investment in the pairings. I do not ship. I take a look at the canon, at what the story is saying, and I try and piece together the truth from there. So much of what the people who say C/A is 'the pairing' (not those that prefer it, mind, but say it is true) is so mind bogglingly against the facts and themes of the original game and compilation that it is, well, absurd.
It's quite like the Star Wars V Star Trek debate. People who claimed Trek would win said some of the most outrageous and mind boggling things imaginable, only to be shot down by the actual facts. It is similar here. I do believe I've compared this debate to the 'controversy' between the Evolutionary proponents and the Creationism/ ID crowd before, and I still find the comparison apt. So, no, I do not agree that the LTD itself is a black mark on the fandom, but I will agree that it can be at times.
And not just the FFVII one, either. The FFXII one's been rather irritating as well.
[quote author=Rinoa link=topic=53.msg1817#msg1817 date=1229125862]
http://whispyr.livejournal.com/23292.html#cutid1
pic is from dead fantasy i'm guessing (I haven't watched the latest)[/quote]
Not Monty's as far as I can tell, but I've not finished going through the stock he released. ::Saves Rikku images::
Mean, I must say, but true. ::Shakes fist at Harry/Hermi and Penelo/Larsa shippers::
And they're adorable lacy ones. Ah Square, showing us the Panties Cloud stole. How gauche of you.
[quote author=Dacon link=topic=53.msg1824#msg1824 date=1229128233]
Pfft, you're all delusional.
Cloud loves Aeris. Clearly knowing a girl for a couple weeks is enough time to fall madly in love versus having a crush on a girl you've known all your life.
Admit defeat and save face peons.
[/quote]
Why, it's all so crystal clear now. I understand! I really do!
You've been hitting the meth again, haven't you?
Avenger, I see your point, but I think you are mistaken on two counts-
Firstly, the LTD is no different from any other argument about FF7 or any other FF. It was with equal fervor to the shippers that people defended the notions that Vincent was Sephiroth's poppa, the Jenova was the one in control, that Ultimecia was Rinoa in the future, that FF10 and FF7 do not share continuity, and I still see people arguing that Laguna isn't Squall's dad. If anything about the LTD that reflects poorly about the FF7 fandom, it would be the way in which it is conducted, but even there, I don't particularly see the problem with mocking the utterly absurd notions that sometimes get thrown about. The reason is largely because of my second point.
This isn't a preferential matter. Like Hitobito and a lot of other people, I have no emotional investment in the pairings. I do not ship. I take a look at the canon, at what the story is saying, and I try and piece together the truth from there. So much of what the people who say C/A is 'the pairing' (not those that prefer it, mind, but say it is true) is so mind bogglingly against the facts and themes of the original game and compilation that it is, well, absurd.
It's quite like the Star Wars V Star Trek debate. People who claimed Trek would win said some of the most outrageous and mind boggling things imaginable, only to be shot down by the actual facts. It is similar here. I do believe I've compared this debate to the 'controversy' between the Evolutionary proponents and the Creationism/ ID crowd before, and I still find the comparison apt. So, no, I do not agree that the LTD itself is a black mark on the fandom, but I will agree that it can be at times.
And not just the FFVII one, either. The FFXII one's been rather irritating as well.
[quote author=Rinoa link=topic=53.msg1817#msg1817 date=1229125862]
http://whispyr.livejournal.com/23292.html#cutid1
pic is from dead fantasy i'm guessing (I haven't watched the latest)[/quote]
Not Monty's as far as I can tell, but I've not finished going through the stock he released. ::Saves Rikku images::
Mean, I must say, but true. ::Shakes fist at Harry/Hermi and Penelo/Larsa shippers::
And they're adorable lacy ones. Ah Square, showing us the Panties Cloud stole. How gauche of you.
[quote author=Dacon link=topic=53.msg1824#msg1824 date=1229128233]
Pfft, you're all delusional.
Cloud loves Aeris. Clearly knowing a girl for a couple weeks is enough time to fall madly in love versus having a crush on a girl you've known all your life.
Admit defeat and save face peons.
[/quote]
Why, it's all so crystal clear now. I understand! I really do!
You've been hitting the meth again, haven't you?
Strangelove
AI Researcher
- AKA
- hitoshura
Re: Love Triangle Discussion
FFXII has a love triangle?
[quote author=Avenger007 link=topic=53.msg1791#msg1791 date=1229115798]We spew our faith and devotion[/quote]
I see what you did there.
There was a reason I chose the word 'discussion' for the title, rather than the more common 'debate'. I would rather just see talking about this subject most of all. I don't see the need for so much bile.
Despite some of the things that have been said of me, I don't really care emotionally about the outcome one way or another. But I've enjoyed looking stuff up and learning something new from the reading threads like this. Fiction (discussions on characters and narrative, storytelling, etc.) and Japanese are the main reason I continue to look at these threads. I know my opinion on this has changed over the time I've been aware of this.
But I can see that for other people, it might be a more deeply-rooted. I've only really known about this matter since AC, but if you had 10 years to believe something and be emotionally invested in it, maybe it's different.
My head hurts now, so I want to make this short and end this here.
FFXII has a love triangle?
[quote author=Avenger007 link=topic=53.msg1791#msg1791 date=1229115798]We spew our faith and devotion[/quote]
I see what you did there.
There was a reason I chose the word 'discussion' for the title, rather than the more common 'debate'. I would rather just see talking about this subject most of all. I don't see the need for so much bile.
Despite some of the things that have been said of me, I don't really care emotionally about the outcome one way or another. But I've enjoyed looking stuff up and learning something new from the reading threads like this. Fiction (discussions on characters and narrative, storytelling, etc.) and Japanese are the main reason I continue to look at these threads. I know my opinion on this has changed over the time I've been aware of this.
But I can see that for other people, it might be a more deeply-rooted. I've only really known about this matter since AC, but if you had 10 years to believe something and be emotionally invested in it, maybe it's different.
My head hurts now, so I want to make this short and end this here.
Avenger007
Rookie Adventurer
Re: Love Triangle Discussion
[quote author=Fighter link=topic=53.msg1820#msg1820 date=1229126858]
No. Why would they? Perhaps naively they assume people are not morons. Go figure.
[/quote]
AS said before:
In manifesting these feelings, the responder usually will eventually give and fall away from logic and argumentative case, only to be filled with any demanding or demeaning catchphrases, anecdotes, or just plain insults... blind insults, insults used to try and further individual points, puns and allegories which only serve for the poster to feel intelligent and the " ah.. gotcha"..
Such responses serve nothing.
Ryushikaze said,
"I take a look at the canon, at what the story is saying, and I try and piece together the truth from there. So much of what the people who say C/A is 'the pairing' (not those that prefer it, mind, but say it is true) is so mind bogglingly against the facts and themes of the original game and compilation that it is, well, absurd."
I agree.. there are some crazy C/A shippers out there who argue with passion and conviction without the logic or reasoning. As well, there are some Total F*ckwad C/A's out there that make everyone want to /facepalm.
But I've met some C/A's out there.. who believe what they believe, who actually use argumentative case and reason to get their point across.. I don't agree with their deductions, but they aren't wrong either. Like you, Ryu, like I, they took "a look at the cannon, at what the story is saying, and [they tried to] piece together the truth from there," and I don't have to agree with them. But I'd like to hear from them. I'd like to hear from them on this forum. I'd like to hear from the intelligent ones, not the trolls. And I wish we could have these trolls stay out of it. At least from my perspective, I get enriched by a story when i find a different interpretation, not angered nor certainly would I not mock someone who honestly came here to discuss.
But in general I like they way you answered my question Ryu ... i hope this kind of discussion we can take further. : )
[quote author=Fighter link=topic=53.msg1820#msg1820 date=1229126858]
No. Why would they? Perhaps naively they assume people are not morons. Go figure.
[/quote]
AS said before:
In manifesting these feelings, the responder usually will eventually give and fall away from logic and argumentative case, only to be filled with any demanding or demeaning catchphrases, anecdotes, or just plain insults... blind insults, insults used to try and further individual points, puns and allegories which only serve for the poster to feel intelligent and the " ah.. gotcha"..
Such responses serve nothing.
Ryushikaze said,
"I take a look at the canon, at what the story is saying, and I try and piece together the truth from there. So much of what the people who say C/A is 'the pairing' (not those that prefer it, mind, but say it is true) is so mind bogglingly against the facts and themes of the original game and compilation that it is, well, absurd."
I agree.. there are some crazy C/A shippers out there who argue with passion and conviction without the logic or reasoning. As well, there are some Total F*ckwad C/A's out there that make everyone want to /facepalm.
But I've met some C/A's out there.. who believe what they believe, who actually use argumentative case and reason to get their point across.. I don't agree with their deductions, but they aren't wrong either. Like you, Ryu, like I, they took "a look at the cannon, at what the story is saying, and [they tried to] piece together the truth from there," and I don't have to agree with them. But I'd like to hear from them. I'd like to hear from them on this forum. I'd like to hear from the intelligent ones, not the trolls. And I wish we could have these trolls stay out of it. At least from my perspective, I get enriched by a story when i find a different interpretation, not angered nor certainly would I not mock someone who honestly came here to discuss.
But in general I like they way you answered my question Ryu ... i hope this kind of discussion we can take further. : )
Max Payne
Banned
- AKA
- Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
Re: Love Triangle Discussion
[quote author=Ryushikaze link=topic=53.msg1831#msg1831 date=1229129809]
Why, it's all so crystal clear now. I understand! I really do!
You've been hitting the meth again, haven't you?
[/quote]
[quote author=Ryushikaze link=topic=53.msg1831#msg1831 date=1229129809]
Why, it's all so crystal clear now. I understand! I really do!
You've been hitting the meth again, haven't you?
[/quote]
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
Re: Love Triangle Discussion
FFXII doesn't, but the fans say it does.
Much like with HP, or FFVI (Ah, the Locke/Tina shippers. Such crazies), etc. etc.
Avenger, I too quite like a good discussion, but I must admit a, well, let us call it a perverse fascination for a good drag down knock out headbutt of a debate as well.
I too have met well spoken and well thought out people who see or prefer the C/A pairing, but generally they are not the sort who deny that C/T exists, or that Cloud is currently with Tifa. Rather, they seem to think that there was something while Aerith was still alive.
What in particular do the people you have discussed with hold as their basic 'claim'? Is it more a ships in the night sort of idea, or is it a love beyond death idea?
FFXII doesn't, but the fans say it does.
Much like with HP, or FFVI (Ah, the Locke/Tina shippers. Such crazies), etc. etc.
Avenger, I too quite like a good discussion, but I must admit a, well, let us call it a perverse fascination for a good drag down knock out headbutt of a debate as well.
I too have met well spoken and well thought out people who see or prefer the C/A pairing, but generally they are not the sort who deny that C/T exists, or that Cloud is currently with Tifa. Rather, they seem to think that there was something while Aerith was still alive.
What in particular do the people you have discussed with hold as their basic 'claim'? Is it more a ships in the night sort of idea, or is it a love beyond death idea?
Isabella
Your Mom
Re: Love Triangle Discussion
What Ryu said. I can see room for a "ships in the night" type perspective, especially with the freedom afforded the player to make choices. What I can't see any room for is the completely unsupported belief that Cloud and Aerith are having romantic hookups post-AC.
What Ryu said. I can see room for a "ships in the night" type perspective, especially with the freedom afforded the player to make choices. What I can't see any room for is the completely unsupported belief that Cloud and Aerith are having romantic hookups post-AC.
Avenger007
Rookie Adventurer
Re: Love Triangle Discussion
Well.. the most Hardcore Logical C/A's usually fall on this path: Cloud loves Aeris, and Aeris Loves Cloud. Tifa loves Cloud, and Cloud loves Tifa (but not romantically ... or something to that effect.) They take any affections brought up for Tifa as more of A sister role, a common soul/warrior in arms deal (but not to get started on the whole mother concept) I can see where they are coming from, but I don't believe the theory holds a lot of Clout. I'd like to hear more from them.
The Common logical C/A's usually go with C l A, A l C, but A is dead. C felt guilty for letting his love A die, and at the beginning of AC can't move on. A wants him to get over it. He then DOES move on from the guilt. Now, he has the ability to move on with T. He knows both girls love him. He can choose to either move on with T or stay in "devotion" with A.
It represents Cloud liked them both, it doesn't deny either shippers, and lets the reader/viewer decide what they feel.. which i find nothing wrong with.
Well.. the most Hardcore Logical C/A's usually fall on this path: Cloud loves Aeris, and Aeris Loves Cloud. Tifa loves Cloud, and Cloud loves Tifa (but not romantically ... or something to that effect.) They take any affections brought up for Tifa as more of A sister role, a common soul/warrior in arms deal (but not to get started on the whole mother concept) I can see where they are coming from, but I don't believe the theory holds a lot of Clout. I'd like to hear more from them.
The Common logical C/A's usually go with C l A, A l C, but A is dead. C felt guilty for letting his love A die, and at the beginning of AC can't move on. A wants him to get over it. He then DOES move on from the guilt. Now, he has the ability to move on with T. He knows both girls love him. He can choose to either move on with T or stay in "devotion" with A.
It represents Cloud liked them both, it doesn't deny either shippers, and lets the reader/viewer decide what they feel.. which i find nothing wrong with.
Madame Mayor
Banned
Re: Love Triangle Discussion
Nothing wrong if you want to feel that way about the story, but wrong if you believe that's the canon.
Celes Chere
Banned
- AKA
- Noctis
Re: Love Triangle Discussion
[quote author=Ryushikaze link=topic=53.msg1844#msg1844 date=1229132457]
FFVI (Ah, the Locke/Tina shippers. Such crazies), etc. etc.
[/quote]
What I don't understand, is people who ship CelesxLocke (As they should), and then seriously ship CloudxAerith. :/ C/A fans seem to believe that the main heroine MUST love the hero. Celes isn't the main heroine though, Terra(Tina) is. -sigh- Always inconsistent. Then, they switch to: "Oh, actually I just support canon couples lolz my bad." when proven wrong and questioned.
BTW, I never really liked VaanxPenelo, and I adore LarsaxPenelo. But I don't deny what's true, even if I want to. ;D
[quote author=Ryushikaze link=topic=53.msg1844#msg1844 date=1229132457]
FFVI (Ah, the Locke/Tina shippers. Such crazies), etc. etc.
[/quote]
What I don't understand, is people who ship CelesxLocke (As they should), and then seriously ship CloudxAerith. :/ C/A fans seem to believe that the main heroine MUST love the hero. Celes isn't the main heroine though, Terra(Tina) is. -sigh- Always inconsistent. Then, they switch to: "Oh, actually I just support canon couples lolz my bad." when proven wrong and questioned.
BTW, I never really liked VaanxPenelo, and I adore LarsaxPenelo. But I don't deny what's true, even if I want to. ;D
Avenger007
Rookie Adventurer
Re: Love Triangle Discussion
[quote author=Balthea link=topic=53.msg1857#msg1857 date=1229143368]
[/quote]
Well... one would be hardpressed to say story =/= cannon, because any extra information from the story is only supplemental to it. Supplimental in the essence that its meant to enhance. But I don't think that's the exact point you were going for.
But if you feel like testing your conviction Balthea.. why not go visit those websites that are dedicated to the viewpoints that differ from yours? Go discuss your argument to them. Sure.. you might get some of the F-wads... might even get alot... but I guarantee you you'll get at least one educated person who differs from you.... and it might be interesting to here what they have to say if you are open to it. YOu might even open yourself to ideas outside the LTD that you haven;t seen before. ANd.. if you have visited such sites.. I'd like to know which one(s). I'm interested to see your what you have read on the opposite viewpoints. Hell.. I'll even join the good fight with you if you find a site that absolutely ridiculous... because such sites ( i feel) add to the polarization.
[quote author=Balthea link=topic=53.msg1857#msg1857 date=1229143368]
Nothing wrong if you want to feel that way about the story, but wrong if you believe that's the canon.
[/quote]
Well... one would be hardpressed to say story =/= cannon, because any extra information from the story is only supplemental to it. Supplimental in the essence that its meant to enhance. But I don't think that's the exact point you were going for.
But if you feel like testing your conviction Balthea.. why not go visit those websites that are dedicated to the viewpoints that differ from yours? Go discuss your argument to them. Sure.. you might get some of the F-wads... might even get alot... but I guarantee you you'll get at least one educated person who differs from you.... and it might be interesting to here what they have to say if you are open to it. YOu might even open yourself to ideas outside the LTD that you haven;t seen before. ANd.. if you have visited such sites.. I'd like to know which one(s). I'm interested to see your what you have read on the opposite viewpoints. Hell.. I'll even join the good fight with you if you find a site that absolutely ridiculous... because such sites ( i feel) add to the polarization.
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
Re: Love Triangle Discussion
[quote author=CelesChere link=topic=53.msg1864#msg1864 date=1229151991]
What I don't understand, is people who ship CelesxLocke (As they should), and then seriously ship CloudxAerith. :/ C/A fans seem to believe that the main heroine MUST love the hero. Celes isn't the main heroine though, Terra(Tina) is. -sigh- Always inconsistent. Then, they switch to: "Oh, actually I just support canon couples lolz my bad." when proven wrong and questioned.
BTW, I never really liked VaanxPenelo, and I adore LarsaxPenelo. But I don't deny what's true, even if I want to. ;D
[/quote]
Even with the 'Main Hero/ Heroine' logic, FF7 has dual heroines. So Cloud (hero) loving Tifa (one of the heroines) still fits their akward logic.
Though FF12 doesn't, as V/P is the pairing, as opposed to Vaan/Ashe.
FFT also doesn't work, as the heroine is either the hero's sister (ew) or the princess who ends up with the hero's best friend.
Or with FFCC:RoF as, again, the hero and heroine are twin siblings.
Or in 5, as there really is no love subplot, save for a few very brief hints at a Cara/ Mid thing.
Anyways, avenger, deciding what they feel is fine... except that they are deciding things that don't quite fit with the compilation. When your personal preference is contrary to established reality (such as it is) it's your preference that must yield, not the reality. Cloud 'not being able to move on' from Aerith- even if you assume that there was a romance to move on from- makes no sense when the compilation speaks of the highwind scene (now canonically the 'high' or default version, thanks to the 20th ani ulti story), speaks of Cloud and Tifa realizing and confirming mutual feelings for each other, has Cloud, mere hours after FF7's ending, asking Tifa to be with him from then on and thinks he can succeed with her, and then the two of them living together and raising children together. It simply makes no narrative sense in that regard. It also makes no narrative sense to give as much emphasis to Aerith's relationship with Zack as they have if they wish fans to understand Aerith being 'paired' with Cloud.
I suppose what I'm getting at is that while it's all well and good to prefer a pairing or a particular version of it, it doesn't make much sense to insist that it is so, in light of all the evidence.
It's like the people who insisted Lupin and Sirius were an item, even after Rowling revealed that Lup and Tonks had been involved for quite a long time. If you like the L/S pairing, fair enough, but claiming it as a valid part of the continuity.
Bah. It's late. I'll try reexplaining it later.
And Avenger, the website that disagrees has a specific rule that disagreement with their party line is a bannable offense. Hardly conducive to friendly discussion.
[quote author=CelesChere link=topic=53.msg1864#msg1864 date=1229151991]
What I don't understand, is people who ship CelesxLocke (As they should), and then seriously ship CloudxAerith. :/ C/A fans seem to believe that the main heroine MUST love the hero. Celes isn't the main heroine though, Terra(Tina) is. -sigh- Always inconsistent. Then, they switch to: "Oh, actually I just support canon couples lolz my bad." when proven wrong and questioned.
BTW, I never really liked VaanxPenelo, and I adore LarsaxPenelo. But I don't deny what's true, even if I want to. ;D
[/quote]
Even with the 'Main Hero/ Heroine' logic, FF7 has dual heroines. So Cloud (hero) loving Tifa (one of the heroines) still fits their akward logic.
Though FF12 doesn't, as V/P is the pairing, as opposed to Vaan/Ashe.
FFT also doesn't work, as the heroine is either the hero's sister (ew) or the princess who ends up with the hero's best friend.
Or with FFCC:RoF as, again, the hero and heroine are twin siblings.
Or in 5, as there really is no love subplot, save for a few very brief hints at a Cara/ Mid thing.
Anyways, avenger, deciding what they feel is fine... except that they are deciding things that don't quite fit with the compilation. When your personal preference is contrary to established reality (such as it is) it's your preference that must yield, not the reality. Cloud 'not being able to move on' from Aerith- even if you assume that there was a romance to move on from- makes no sense when the compilation speaks of the highwind scene (now canonically the 'high' or default version, thanks to the 20th ani ulti story), speaks of Cloud and Tifa realizing and confirming mutual feelings for each other, has Cloud, mere hours after FF7's ending, asking Tifa to be with him from then on and thinks he can succeed with her, and then the two of them living together and raising children together. It simply makes no narrative sense in that regard. It also makes no narrative sense to give as much emphasis to Aerith's relationship with Zack as they have if they wish fans to understand Aerith being 'paired' with Cloud.
I suppose what I'm getting at is that while it's all well and good to prefer a pairing or a particular version of it, it doesn't make much sense to insist that it is so, in light of all the evidence.
It's like the people who insisted Lupin and Sirius were an item, even after Rowling revealed that Lup and Tonks had been involved for quite a long time. If you like the L/S pairing, fair enough, but claiming it as a valid part of the continuity.
Bah. It's late. I'll try reexplaining it later.
And Avenger, the website that disagrees has a specific rule that disagreement with their party line is a bannable offense. Hardly conducive to friendly discussion.
Avenger007
Rookie Adventurer
Re: Love Triangle Discussion
[quote author=Ryushikaze link=topic=53.msg1867#msg1867 date=1229153386]
Cloud, mere hours after FF7's ending, asking Tifa to be with him from then on and thinks he can succeed with her, and then the two of them living together and raising children together. It simply makes no narrative sense in that regard. It also makes no narrative sense to give as much emphasis to Aerith's relationship with Zack as they have if they wish fans to understand Aerith being 'paired' with Cloud.
[/quote]
Being a Cloti fan.. I have two contentions with this statement:
1: relationships are not stagnant.
2: Incongruities with some Cloti arguments.
1. I (and yes personally) find it hard to believe that the Cloti relationship is solid post FFVII. From reading CoT, from watching AC, i find your first part of the argument to be a little lacking. They were raising a "family," but then Cloud left... left to the point where the one he loves has no idea where he is... And he may have felt he could originally succeed... but ultimately comes to the conclusion that he can't.. and is content to die.. to not be apart of the family, to not be with Tifa. I hate it.. but to me his guilt supercedes his love for her. Granted (thankfully) he comes around, but their love is not all honkey dory as we'd like it to be, and persoanlly I like it being complicated like this. I like the tension. I like the development rather than the "everything is ok"
2nd: and I'll make it short. I find it odd that us Cloti's are so willing to accept a Zerith parring post mordem but so agaisnt a Cleris parring post mordem. (This isn't an argument of validity but rather an argument agaisnt a point that i feel should no longer be used for Cloti... I.e. we shoulnd't use Aerith being dead as a counterpoint-- if we are to accept a Zerith post mordem.. though she is
) Aren't Character's allowed to love someone and then move on? Must Aeris only love one and then never again no other? Must Cloud only love one and then never again no other? Let the story progress beyond the stagnant. I find no fault in letting characters love one and then move on to find another.
[quote author=Ryushikaze link=topic=53.msg1867#msg1867 date=1229153386]
Cloud, mere hours after FF7's ending, asking Tifa to be with him from then on and thinks he can succeed with her, and then the two of them living together and raising children together. It simply makes no narrative sense in that regard. It also makes no narrative sense to give as much emphasis to Aerith's relationship with Zack as they have if they wish fans to understand Aerith being 'paired' with Cloud.
[/quote]
Being a Cloti fan.. I have two contentions with this statement:
1: relationships are not stagnant.
2: Incongruities with some Cloti arguments.
1. I (and yes personally) find it hard to believe that the Cloti relationship is solid post FFVII. From reading CoT, from watching AC, i find your first part of the argument to be a little lacking. They were raising a "family," but then Cloud left... left to the point where the one he loves has no idea where he is... And he may have felt he could originally succeed... but ultimately comes to the conclusion that he can't.. and is content to die.. to not be apart of the family, to not be with Tifa. I hate it.. but to me his guilt supercedes his love for her. Granted (thankfully) he comes around, but their love is not all honkey dory as we'd like it to be, and persoanlly I like it being complicated like this. I like the tension. I like the development rather than the "everything is ok"
2nd: and I'll make it short. I find it odd that us Cloti's are so willing to accept a Zerith parring post mordem but so agaisnt a Cleris parring post mordem. (This isn't an argument of validity but rather an argument agaisnt a point that i feel should no longer be used for Cloti... I.e. we shoulnd't use Aerith being dead as a counterpoint-- if we are to accept a Zerith post mordem.. though she is
) Aren't Character's allowed to love someone and then move on? Must Aeris only love one and then never again no other? Must Cloud only love one and then never again no other? Let the story progress beyond the stagnant. I find no fault in letting characters love one and then move on to find another.
Fighter
Pro Adventurer
Re: Love Triangle Discussion
[quote author=Avenger007 link=topic=53.msg1841#msg1841 date=1229132104]
AS said before:
In manifesting these feelings, the responder usually will eventually give and fall away from logic and argumentative case, only to be filled with any demanding or demeaning catchphrases, anecdotes, or just plain insults... blind insults, insults used to try and further individual points, puns and allegories which only serve for the poster to feel intelligent and the " ah.. gotcha"..[/quote]
You were around ACF back in the day weren't you? So we both know that's not true. The vast majority of C/A arguments are plain absurd, which you seem to admit later. Including the inane attempts to not understand what SE is saying because of some imaginary ambiguity that to most anyone is simply not there. Take the various arguments over Japanese language. It's how I see it.
I remember you being a cleris fan.. What happened?
I've combined your posts above.
Those views neglect several key facts, coming directly from SE's own explanation of the story:
1). Cloud was very happy living with Tifa. The happier he got the more lonely it made him (10th Ultimania/Various interviews). There is a direct correlation there with Cloud's distant behavior in CoT and his happiness. And it directly negates all arguments like "his guilt supersedes his love for her". Because it would be his love that drives him away.
2). Cloud distances himself because he is afraid to lose what he's got (10th Ultimania/Various interviews). Not because he misses Aerith. Cloud's central conflict is what it has always been, self-doubt.
3) Cloud left because he contracted Geostygma (10th Ultimania).
We use arguments with validity.
[quote author=Avenger007 link=topic=53.msg1841#msg1841 date=1229132104]
AS said before:
In manifesting these feelings, the responder usually will eventually give and fall away from logic and argumentative case, only to be filled with any demanding or demeaning catchphrases, anecdotes, or just plain insults... blind insults, insults used to try and further individual points, puns and allegories which only serve for the poster to feel intelligent and the " ah.. gotcha"..[/quote]
You were around ACF back in the day weren't you? So we both know that's not true. The vast majority of C/A arguments are plain absurd, which you seem to admit later. Including the inane attempts to not understand what SE is saying because of some imaginary ambiguity that to most anyone is simply not there. Take the various arguments over Japanese language. It's how I see it.
I remember you being a cleris fan.. What happened?
I've combined your posts above.
Those views neglect several key facts, coming directly from SE's own explanation of the story:
1). Cloud was very happy living with Tifa. The happier he got the more lonely it made him (10th Ultimania/Various interviews). There is a direct correlation there with Cloud's distant behavior in CoT and his happiness. And it directly negates all arguments like "his guilt supersedes his love for her". Because it would be his love that drives him away.
2). Cloud distances himself because he is afraid to lose what he's got (10th Ultimania/Various interviews). Not because he misses Aerith. Cloud's central conflict is what it has always been, self-doubt.
3) Cloud left because he contracted Geostygma (10th Ultimania).
We use arguments with validity.
- Status